Sex for Rent: Prostitution? [Archive] - Quarter To Three Forums

Rywill

03-21-2006, 07:30 AM

This should probaby go in P&R, but I've sworn off the place:

Various newspapers are reporting (http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=49347) on a new Craigslist phenomenon: men advertising low-rent (like a dollar a month) or rent-free places to young women who will agree to have sex with them while living there. Some of the ads are explicit ("Sex 2x/week") and others just say "free rent for party girl" or something similar. Police in Miami are apparently investigating it as solicitation for prostitution (i.e., the guys placing the ads could get arrested, just as if they'd driven up to a streetwalker and offered $50 for a blowjob).

So what do folks think? I'm Mister Super-Libertarian, and have long thought prostitution ought to be legal anyway, so it's hard for me to really get it. Among those who think prostitution ought to be outlawed, does this count? What if I let someone move into my place for free, and a week later I make a pass at them and get shot down, and then I tell them they have to move out? What if a rich older guy starts dating a pretty younger woman, covering all her expenses for entertainment, shopping, etc., and then she tells him "no more sex" and he breaks up with her?

Disclaimer: I'm not saying that prostitution is good or that I think the guys putting out these ads are okay. I think the guys are shallow, pathetic losers who resort to the ads because they can't manage to actually win a woman's affection on their own merits and are too stupid or emotionally stunted to care that the woman is sleeping with them for money. But I don't think there should be any law against being a shallow, pathetic loser.

Sean Hargraves

03-21-2006, 07:33 AM

Disclaimer: I'm not saying that prostitution is good or that I think the guys putting out these ads are okay. I think the guys are shallow, pathetic losers who resort to the ads because they can't manage to actually win a woman's affection on their own merits and are too stupid or emotionally stunted to care that the woman is sleeping with them for money. But I don't think there should be any law against being a shallow, pathetic loser.

:( :( :(

instant0

03-21-2006, 07:38 AM

John Many Jars

03-21-2006, 07:46 AM

So what do folks think? I'm Mister Super-Libertarian, and have long thought prostitution ought to be legal anyway, so it's hard for me to really get it. Among those who think prostitution ought to be outlawed, does this count? What if I let someone move into my place for free, and a week later I make a pass at them and get shot down, and then I tell them they have to move out? What if a rich older guy starts dating a pretty younger woman, covering all her expenses for entertainment, shopping, etc., and then she tells him "no more sex" and he breaks up with her?

I guess the question is whether sex for goods and services is the same as sex for money, and I guess the answer is "Probably." The two examples you cite don't bother me --- I mean, a man clearly isn't obligated to let a mistress live in his home indefinitely if he doesn't want to, or to maintain her in her preferred style, even if she was willing to continue providing sex. But paying for sex with rent or, I don't know, an XBOX 360 and a copy of Oblivion seems to same as paying cash, as long as that's illegal.

I have mixed feelings about legalizing prostitution: I don't think it's inherently immoral, or that inherently immoral things should all be outlawed in the United States, but I'm not entirely sure that legalizing it would really do away with its pimping, organized crime, STD-spreading, and hooker-murdering accompaniments. But, as you say, that's a different issue.

Rob Beschizza

03-21-2006, 07:47 AM

Rywill

03-21-2006, 07:58 AM

Prostitution should not be illegal, but you can bet your life that in most cases here the relationship between landlord and tenant is abusive sex slavery of the lowest and most obscene order. Also, payment is labor-intensiv, requires the tenant to by physically present, and implies no in-lieu options of alternative payment: I don't think you'd have to think too hard to find objections to this on practical grounds that even Mister Super Libertarian might agree with.
Mister Super Libertarian doesn't understand. If I hire you as a ditch-digger, your side of the bargain is also labor-intensive, requires you to be physically present, and implies no in-lieu options of alternative payment. But there is nothing wrong with that, right? The only reason sex-for-rent is different is because having sex is a more intimate or personal activity than digging ditches. Although I personally wouldn't hire someone for sex nor rent myself out for sex (and I bet I could charge CRAZY HIGH PRICES), I don't see why I should prevent other people from doing that, if they choose to. I see it as pretty similar to the rich-guy, young-girlfriend example, really: I wouldn't want to have a young girlfriend who was only dating me for my money, nor would I want to date an older person I don't really like, just for their money. But if other people are willing to make those compromises, that's their problem.

Nick Walter

03-21-2006, 08:03 AM

The reason money-for-ditch-digging is different than sex-for-living-quarters is that the landlord-tenant relationship is one that offers much better opportunities for abuse and fraud. How exactly does one get a receipt or the ability to prove payment for the January rent in a deal like this?

I'm not against properly regulated prosititution, but I don't think this could be properly regulated to protect the tenants.

Marcus

03-21-2006, 08:07 AM

Yeah I have been looking for a place in LA and jesus christ if I dont see these ads a lot.

VegasRobb

03-21-2006, 08:11 AM

Yeah I have been looking for a place in LA and jesus christ if I dont see these ads a lot.

What's the percentage of boy-toy ads versus "party girl" ads?

Marcus

03-21-2006, 08:12 AM

0 to 1000

Steve Canyon

03-21-2006, 08:22 AM

0 to 1000

So much for Steve Canyon moving to LA.

John Many Jars

03-21-2006, 08:22 AM

CL is also full of ads from girls seeking sugar daddies, many of them amusingly specific about the contract being offered.

If you want a look at the squirming creatures living under the rock of mainstream American life, CL is definitely the place to go. It's like Usenet without nerds.

Marcus

03-21-2006, 08:23 AM

Steve Canyon

03-21-2006, 08:24 AM

Well, if the choice is for "Party girl" to get cheap rent and be able to study or wtf in exchange for lewd conduct with 1 person, that she can choose, vs. being on the streets getting whatever is there, or having someone pimp her out, I guess the first choice does seem like the better one.

The reality is more like the landlord is going to see a huge increase in traffic coming to the newly rented room as the girl brings home the rest of her clientel.

Steve Canyon

03-21-2006, 08:28 AM

This is no good Rywill. Now the neighbors have a prostitute working in the neighborhood. She is most likely going to use the new "apartment" as home base for her work activities. There goes the neighborhood! As a neighbor, I should have some rights about how my block is used.

stusser

03-21-2006, 08:34 AM

Of course it's prostitution.

And yes, this should be in P&R.

fire

03-21-2006, 08:38 AM

and jesus christ if I dont see these ads a lot.

And god damn if that aint no shit.

wtf??

SpoofyChop

03-21-2006, 08:55 AM

Yeah Rywill...um...I hate to say it but this is exactly the kind of thread that should be in P&R.

I've sworn it off too, and the only thing that can come of putting P&R posts in EE is that EE is just going to go down the tubes too.

:(

Marcus

03-21-2006, 08:58 AM

wtf??

What?!

extarbags

03-21-2006, 09:05 AM

Yeah, it's definitely prostitution. But that shouldn't surprise you, because actual prostitutes and disreputable massage parlors advertise on craigslist all the time.

BaconTastesGood

03-21-2006, 09:17 AM

Come on people, old news Housewife Charged in "Sex-for-Security" Scam (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/39495)

Rywill

03-21-2006, 09:23 AM

Apologies for not putting this in P&R. If the Entity wants to move it over, that's probably a good idea.

The reason money-for-ditch-digging is different than sex-for-living-quarters is that the landlord-tenant relationship is one that offers much better opportunities for abuse and fraud. How exactly does one get a receipt or the ability to prove payment for the January rent in a deal like this?
The same way any service provider does, I guess. Hairstylists, lawyers, and car mechanics all manage to get paid somehow.

There goes the neighborhood! As a neighbor, I should have some rights about how my block is used.
We're sort of getting far afield here, but I certainly agree that (a) you should have a right to place some lax, reasonable restrictions on how your neighbor uses his property, whether he agrees with those restrctions or not, which is already done via zoning laws enacted by elected city board officials; and (b) groups of neighbors should be able to mutually agree to more restrictive sets of rules to make sure their neighborhood is just how they want it, which is already done through private homeowners associations. Assuming that's what you mean, I'm with you.

For me the "I don't get it" moment is this: I think the real concern people have with prostitution is that they think sex should only be done for emotional reasons (which can include casual sex), rather than out of some financial or material motive. But at the same time, most people (I think) believe it should be legal for a woman to date, or marry, a man for his money (or vice-versa of course). They may think that's bad or immoral, but they don't think it should be outlawed. I don't know why that is.

Nick Walter

03-21-2006, 09:39 AM

The same way any service provider does, I guess. Hairstylists, lawyers, and car mechanics all manage to get paid somehow.

Service providers don't trade services directly for rent. I'm not sure about CA but around here I'm fairly sure that's illegal .

Jason McCullough

03-21-2006, 09:41 AM

The power dynamics from live-in-prostitution are not good from a exploitation perspective; at least escorts can leave. Otherwise, who cares.

Steve, I'm not buying the zoning thing - there's probably at least one prostitute in your extended neighborhood right now, and you've never noticed. Streetwalkers are only a rounding error of prostitutes.

Rywill

03-21-2006, 09:52 AM

Service providers don't trade services directly for rent. I'm not sure about CA but around here I'm fairly sure that's illegal .
I don't know the actual law either, but I sincerely doubt that it's illegal. For example, I think it's fairly typical to hire a live-in nanny (or maid, or gardener, etc.) that gets paid a much smaller wage than you would expect, but gets to live there for free. She is essentially getting paid (part of) her wage in rent rather than money. That's not illegal. And I don't really see why it should be. What difference does it make? Is it somehow better if I tell someone "I want you to live here and work here, and every month I'll pay you $3,000, but I want you to immediately hand $750 of it back to me as rent"? It seems like the argument Jason is making is that you can separate the two, so that (for example) I could decide to quit working for you but still stay as a tenant. But if we're talking about a room in someone's house, you know that if you quit they're going to terminate your lease as well (and that's not even evil, they need the room for the new nanny), so what's the point really?

Steve Canyon

03-21-2006, 09:55 AM

Steve, I'm not buying the zoning thing - there's probably at least one prostitute in your extended neighborhood right now, and you've never noticed. Streetwalkers are only a rounding error of prostitutes.

I'm not sure why you say that. Prostitution is going to be like selling drugs in that it brings a bad element into your neighborhood. The prostitute may be able to keep it cool for a few weeks or months, just like the guy selling drugs, but eventually it's going to come crashing down.

I don't get the rounding error thing. If you're trying to say that the majority of prostitues are actually women livin in suburbia, I'm going to need you to explain that. I just don't think that's the case.

Nick Walter

03-21-2006, 10:00 AM

I don't know the actual law either, but I sincerely doubt that it's illegal.

It would be a tax evasion thing. Providing room and board as part of payment for employment would be okay I think, but that's going to be properly taxed. A straight service-for-rent swap with no money involved is probably evading taxation.

But then, we are now picking at tiny nits so I'll just admit I don't care and go back to my original point. Legal prostitution needs to be tightly regulated to make sure that the sex is consensual, STD precautions are taken, and nobody is being taken advantage of. An untaxed off-the-books transaction like sex-for-rent could not be effectively regulated so should be illegal as a matter of public safety.

Steve Canyon

03-21-2006, 10:11 AM

For me the "I don't get it" moment is this: I think the real concern people have with prostitution is that they think sex should only be done for emotional reasons (which can include casual sex), rather than out of some financial or material motive. But at the same time, most people (I think) believe it should be legal for a woman to date, or marry, a man for his money (or vice-versa of course). They may think that's bad or immoral, but they don't think it should be outlawed. I don't know why that is.

Why? Maybe it's because we live in a judeo-christian society where prostituion has been taboo for thousands of years? Even the Bible has prostitutes running around. Ha, ha. Jesus came for the prostitutes! (bad pun somewhere in there.)

I hear what you are saying, but it's pointless change. Have you ever met a prostitute? Do you know any emotionally balenced, seemingly sane prostitutes? The people I have known who have done this sort of thing have all been basket cases and trouble makers. I think there is a reason for it: selling sex does not build character, or leads to emotional problems. I don't have any proof beyond gut instincts, but I'm not sure it makes sense to fight for a prostitute's right to be a prostitute (not that this is your point, but it's might be one reason why we don't overturn laws forbidding prostitution).

As for the gold diggers or psudo prostitues, those are people on the margins. Whenever you setup a boundry, you're going to have people who try to profit from getting close to the line but not crossing it. It's a function of creating boundries. It's unavoidable. No reason to move the boundry, simply because people are getting close to it.

Ben

03-21-2006, 10:24 AM

"Steve"- You're making an unwarranted assumption that the live-in sex slave will be having sex with other people for money. I would assume, if anything, the opposite(some degree of exclusivity).

"Do you know any emotionally balanced..." is hogwash. Prostitution is not illegal because hookers get sad sometimes.

Gordon Cameron

03-21-2006, 10:25 AM

I hear what you are saying, but it's pointless change. Have you ever met a prostitute? Do you know any emotionally balenced, seemingly sane prostitutes? The people I have known who have done this sort of thing have all been basket cases and trouble makers.

Assuming your premise is correct (which it may or may not be, I have no data), I detect some chicken and egg here, potentially. I.e. basket cases are drawn to prostitution (or prostitution tends to make basket cases) because it is a socially deplored and generally illegal activity, not because of anything innate to it.

Jason McCullough

03-21-2006, 10:33 AM

I don't get the rounding error thing. If you're trying to say that the majority of prostitues are actually women livin in suburbia, I'm going to need you to explain that. I just don't think that's the case.

It's a bit like the popular conception that most drug users are those crazy people in the streets or poor criminals - based more on media portrayals than reality.

Anyway, see here (http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,505040325,00.html) and here (http://www.missingpeople.net/the_hidden_world_of_hookers-june_8,_2002.htm).

Leah C

03-21-2006, 10:39 AM

I hear what you are saying, but it's pointless change. Have you ever met a prostitute? Do you know any emotionally balenced, seemingly sane prostitutes?
I've known/spoken with a number of sex workers during my time at school (I studied human sexuality and transgenderism with a focus on advocacy). One of my professors was a prostitute, we had a number of guest speakers in the industry, and a third of one of my classes was made up of prostitutes and ex prostitutes. Many of them were well balanced people. There were a few nutjobs, but you find nutjobs everywhere. They may not represent the majority of prostitutes, but emotionally balanced prostitutes certainly exist.

I'm not sure it makes sense to fight for a prostitute's right to be a prostitute
Having rights is the difference between a brothel in Nevada, where they look over your wang with a blacklight and can safely refuse to service you, and a street in the Tenderloin where you're servicing someone behind a dumpster whether you like it or not. I'm not sure it makes sense to NOT fight for a prostitute's right to be a prostitute, if it means a safer environment for them to work in.

Back to the original post...I think whether or not this is prostitution depends on the context of the relationship. I've been solicited by some guys with these types of arrangements when I posted a room wanted ad in CL and they made it very clear that they were looking for a master/servant relationship because they're into S&M. As long as the "servant" is pursuing this because they too are into the lifestyle and not acting out of desperation and/or being taken advantage of, I don't look at it as prostitution any more than I look at a spanking or lashing in an S&M relationship as abuse.

If it's some sleazy guy preying on young and desperate girls, well, yeah. He can go into the shallow and pathetic loser category. I don't necessarily think it should be illegal, but I don't agree with it at all.

Ryan A

03-21-2006, 10:41 AM

Whew... this is just a thread about Craigslist freakshows. I was worried that somebody had actually figured out a way to rent sex rather than sell it.

dannimal

03-21-2006, 10:49 AM

In that same vein, I'm amazed that Teh Koontz (tm) hasn't waxed moronic in this thread yet.

Troy S Goodfellow

03-21-2006, 11:18 AM

In that same vein, I'm amazed that Teh Koontz (tm) hasn't waxed moronic in this thread yet.

He's probably been typing it for the last hour. Give the boy time.

Troy

Steve Canyon

03-21-2006, 11:32 AM

Assuming your premise is correct (which it may or may not be, I have no data), I detect some chicken and egg here, potentially. I.e. basket cases are drawn to prostitution (or prostitution tends to make basket cases) because it is a socially deplored and generally illegal activity, not because of anything innate to it.

You're probaby right.

Steve Canyon

03-21-2006, 11:54 AM

I've known/spoken with a number of sex workers during my time at school (I studied human sexuality and transgenderism with a focus on advocacy). One of my professors was a prostitute, we had a number of guest speakers in the industry, and a third of one of my classes was made up of prostitutes and ex prostitutes. Many of them were well balanced people. There were a few nutjobs, but you find nutjobs everywhere. They may not represent the majority of prostitutes, but emotionally balanced prostitutes certainly exist.

Having rights is the difference between a brothel in Nevada, where they look over your wang with a blacklight and can safely refuse to service you, and a street in the Tenderloin where you're servicing someone behind a dumpster whether you like it or not. I'm not sure it makes sense to NOT fight for a prostitute's right to be a prostitute, if it means a safer environment for them to work in.

Interesting, thanks for posting. I met most of the people I know in drug rehabs in rural PA and NYC, so maybe I am out of touch or something. Nevertheless, my gut feeling about a prostitute who can also make a legitimate claim to being a professor is that I am not getting the whole story. Curious: how did you know that a third of the class was made up of prostitutes?

I agree that a safer enviornment for prostitutes is desireable. I'm just not so sure prostitution should be a valid career option for people.

Why do they shine a black light on your wang? Is that more or less safe than using a latex condom?

Troy S Goodfellow

03-21-2006, 12:02 PM

Why do they shine a black light on your wang?

CSI role playing.

Troy

Leah C

03-21-2006, 12:04 PM

Curious: how did you know that a third of the class was made up of prostitutes?

It was a health advocacy class in the human sexuality department and during the first class, we signed confidentiality papers and agreed that it would be a "safe space" to share personal info. A lot of the people in the class shared information openly during class discussions and we learned some things through anon polling.

Why do they shine a black light on your wang? Is that more or less safe than using a latex condom?

They check you out when you go in for fluids, cuts, warts, lesions, nasties in general. Then the condom goes on if you meet their safety standards.

Leah C

03-21-2006, 12:12 PM

Nevertheless, my gut feeling about a prostitute who can also make a legitimate claim to being a professor is that I am not getting the whole story.

Having a MS, a Ph.D, and being certified as a sex ed teacher and an AIDS/HIV counselor helps.

Sometimes being a prostitute is about enjoying sex and feeling that you have the right to have sex with whomever you want, under whatever terms you want. My guess is that for her, it's not entirely about the money.

Steve Canyon

03-21-2006, 12:29 PM

It's a bit like the popular conception that most drug users are those crazy people in the streets or poor criminals - based more on media portrayals than reality.

I scanned these but don't see where you get this information. I think we're talking about prostitution here, which to me means being willing to trade sex for cash (or room and board or whatever).

The stats I'm seeing in these articles seem somewhat misleading. For example, look at this:

Wahab said her studies have shown that streetwalkers make up 10 to 20 percent of the women in the sex industry but account for 75 to 85 percent of all prostitution arrests.

This seems just as it should be. The sex industry includes women performing legal work like peep shows, porn movies, and legit escort services. One reason the street walkers make up the majority of the girls being arrested is because... it's illegal.

I agree that there are a lot of girls working as prostitutes for escort services, but I'm not sure how these articles show that these women do not fit image you seem to think is a misconception. The first article offers as evidence these girl's own self-description to the officers on the night they were arrested. It's hardly surprising that the girls would describe themselves as "good" girls, but it's not very convincing evidence. If anything it just shows they're not yet as desperate as the street walkers.

And hey. I've known a lot of drug users that didn't fit the popular media mold, but that doesn't mean most drug users are all harmless hippies either.

Enidigm

03-21-2006, 12:29 PM

You know Sara women like you give Kansas aneurysms. :)

Sex is a wierd thing when you try to convert it into a service. But one thing worth remembering - marriages can be annulled if not consumated, and i'm pretty sure divorces can be had on the grounds of denying sexual services if over a long period of time.

Steve Canyon

03-21-2006, 12:30 PM

CSI role playing.

Troy

You failed the fluid free check, my friend. You're outta here!

mouselock

03-21-2006, 12:32 PM

This seems just as it should be. The sex industry includes women performing legal work like peep shows, porn movies, and legit escort services. One reason the street walkers make up the majority of the girls being arrested is because... it's illegal.

Let me see if I can wrap my mind around this:

Woman gets paid to have sex publically, often with many people: OK.

Woman gets paid to have sex privately with one person: Not OK.

Moral: Freedom sucks. Unless I get off too.

Umm.. yeah..

Steve Canyon

03-21-2006, 12:38 PM

Wow. Your class seems like one of the few places where it would actually be beneficial for one to announce a history as a prostitute.

Dirt

03-21-2006, 01:23 PM

Jason McCullough

03-21-2006, 01:59 PM

I scanned these but don't see where you get this information.

From the first link:

People here may not realize the scope of prostitution because they don't see it. But much of it is right under their noses. Police say most prostitutes today don't frequent street corners and advertise their wares with miniskirts and stiletto heels. Instead, they advertise in some classifieds under "entertainment," "private dancers" and "escort services." "Look in the entertainment section (of the classifieds). That's strictly prostitution," Norton said.

Mind you this stuff is hard to pull out of google, but the industry has never been about streetwalkers from what I've read here and there.

playingwithknives

03-21-2006, 02:58 PM

So that link i was shown where a woman with a "hardcore armpit fetish" wanted to a guy to tie up and do er.. whatever with twice a week in exchange for rent wasn't a fake? I thought it was until i read this thread. It wasnt on craigslist though, but a similar one for antipodean travellers in the UK.

Im suprised anyone has ever taken up one of these offers, it's got Fred and Rose West (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_West) written all over it.

Lum

03-21-2006, 03:01 PM

Actually the Internet has shaped the oldest profession in some interesting ways.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/10879309/

Craiglist's "escort" ads usually have links to sites such as this now.

SlyFrog

03-21-2006, 03:21 PM

Back to the original post...I think whether or not this is prostitution depends on the context of the relationship. I've been solicited by some guys with these types of arrangements when I posted a room wanted ad in CL and they made it very clear that they were looking for a master/servant relationship because they're into S&M. As long as the "servant" is pursuing this because they too are into the lifestyle and not acting out of desperation and/or being taken advantage of, I don't look at it as prostitution any more than I look at a spanking or lashing in an S&M relationship as abuse.

If it's some sleazy guy preying on young and desperate girls, well, yeah. He can go into the shallow and pathetic loser category. I don't necessarily think it should be illegal, but I don't agree with it at all.

How far do you take this though, and why do you differentiate (if at all) because sex is involved? Do most people really want to beat up their bodies offloading trucks at Wal-Mart every day for $5.15 an hour because they get a real kick out of it, or do they do it because they need the job to survive and they have no other options? If that is the case, are they acting out of desperation and being taken advantage of? Where do you draw the line? What's different about the guy who is forced to "sell" his body doing physically self-destructive factory work (perhaps involving harmful chemicals, etc.) because it is the only work he can find versus the woman who is forced to sell her body?

shift6

03-21-2006, 03:25 PM

I was just going over Craiglist in Las Vegas after reading this thread and after like two minutes found this posting from yesterday: http://lasvegas.craigslist.org/roo/143782520.html

Room for rent to a lady in exchange for cooking, cleaning, and head twice a week.

stusser

03-21-2006, 03:34 PM

Craiglist's "escort" ads usually have links to sites such as this now. I remember that case, they were proscecuted under racketeering charges. The guy was a real dope. He had an extremely successful business running a perfectly legal website with hooker reviews selling ads to hookers, and stupidly decided to leverage his site for services, bartering in kind so to speak, which opened himself up to proscecution. If you're going to start a small business that is technically legal but strongly frowned upon by community standards, you have to keep your nose scrupulously clean.

extarbags

03-21-2006, 03:54 PM

Leah C

03-21-2006, 04:09 PM

Unfortunately, it's really a lot simpler (http://www.answers.com/prostitution&r=67) than that. Money or other material compensation for sex = prostitution. It doesn't actually matter whether you're doing it because that's just what you're into or because that's what you have to do to get your next ticket to the smack show. That's just what the word means.

It's a good thing the original question was what we think, and not what the definition of the word is :P

extarbags

03-21-2006, 04:51 PM

It's a good thing the original question was what we think, and not what the definition of the word is :P

Ok, let me try this again. Having sex with someone in exchange for a place to live is prostitution, because the definition of prostitution is trading sex for money, or something that is worth money. That's what prostitution is. There's no qualifier in there for whether or not you like being a prositute or whatever.

Steve Canyon

03-21-2006, 05:09 PM

Mind you this stuff is hard to pull out of google, but the industry has never been about streetwalkers from what I've read here and there.

I don't disagree. I'm just not sure the ability to advertise in the classified ads alone offsets the fact that the girl "renting" the room next door is not a street-walker prostitute. But, hey, you never know. Maybe most of the women in my neighborhood are really prostitutes!

Rywill

03-21-2006, 05:19 PM

Ok, let me try this again. Having sex with someone in exchange for a place to live is prostitution, because the definition of prostitution is trading sex for money, or something that is worth money.
Again, though: would you consider it prostitution if a woman dates or marries a wealthy man (including having sex with him) because of his money? What if it's at least partly because of his money?

Steve Canyon

03-21-2006, 05:23 PM

Having a MS, a Ph.D, and being certified as a sex ed teacher and an AIDS/HIV counselor helps.

Sometimes being a prostitute is about enjoying sex and feeling that you have the right to have sex with whomever you want, under whatever terms you want. My guess is that for her, it's not entirely about the money.

No, being a prostitute is about taking money for sex. You can "enjoying sex" and feel the way you describe for free, but then that's not prostitution.

Lizard_King

03-21-2006, 05:25 PM

Again, though: would you consider it prostitution if a woman dates or marries a wealthy man (including having sex with him) because of his money? What if it's at least partly because of his money?
Yes.

But then again, I also believe there is no inherently negative characteristics to analyzing a relationship at least partially as trade in tangibles, and that the line between john and prostitute is negligible...they must both be considered equal participants in the exchange (at least, in theoretical ideals).

And, yeah, I know you weren't asking me. But EE is the new tarbaby, hopefully not for long.

Steve Canyon

03-21-2006, 05:36 PM

Again, though: would you consider it prostitution if a woman dates or marries a wealthy man (including having sex with him) because of his money? What if it's at least partly because of his money?

No big deal, becasue that's not prostitution. The spouse enjoys rights a prostitute does not. The prostitute enjoys freedoms the spouse does not.

The dating analogy falls apart for my side because there are no formal rights for a date to enjoy, but there are still traditional expectations. If you were dating a prostitute, it would mean you were not enjoying the same privledges other people who date enjoy, like exclusivity.

I'm not tryin to make a moral judgement on prostitutes here. I am just saying this is where the line is drawn in our society. There are good reasons for it (see my earlier posts about negative aspects of prostitution). There are some downsides, most notably power issues for women, but the benefit to soceity outweighs the harm to women as a group. All IMO of course.

jim crawford

03-21-2006, 05:58 PM

Woman gets paid to have sex publically, often with many people: OK.

Woman gets paid to have sex privately with one person: Not OK.
This is something I've been wondering about for a while. Porn actresses get paid. What is it about the process of making porn that differentiates it from the illegal kind of prostitution? Filming it? Selling the resulting film? The most plausible reason I can think of is that the male actors get paid as well. But does that outlaw DIY porn, where the funder is also an actor?

extarbags

03-21-2006, 06:13 PM

This is something I've been wondering about for a while. Porn actresses get paid. What is it about the process of making porn that differentiates it from the illegal kind of prostitution? Filming it? Selling the resulting film? The most plausible reason I can think of is that the male actors get paid as well. But does that outlaw DIY porn, where the funder is also an actor?

IIRC, most above-board US porn is shot in LA, and is legal under laws designed to protect normal film producers. Don't remember where I heard that, though.

Jason McCullough

03-21-2006, 06:33 PM

"Prostitution" is illegal because people think streetwalkers are icky. That's pretty much the explanation of any inconsistencies around pornography and whatnot.

Euri

03-21-2006, 07:07 PM

Porn is protected by the supreme court as art, in reailty.

Steve Canyon

03-21-2006, 07:16 PM

"Prostitution" is illegal because people think streetwalkers are icky. That's pretty much the explanation of any inconsistencies around pornography and whatnot.

Gah, go back and read those articles you pointed out earlier for reasons to outlaw prostitution.

Leah C

03-21-2006, 07:26 PM

How far do you take this though, and why do you differentiate (if at all) because sex is involved? Do most people really want to beat up their bodies offloading trucks at Wal-Mart every day for $5.15 an hour because they get a real kick out of it, or do they do it because they need the job to survive and they have no other options? If that is the case, are they acting out of desperation and being taken advantage of? Where do you draw the line? What's different about the guy who is forced to "sell" his body doing physically self-destructive factory work (perhaps involving harmful chemicals, etc.) because it is the only work he can find versus the woman who is forced to sell her body?

If there's any differentiation because of sex, I imagine it's because sex can be a complicated thing and it can open the door to all kinds of bad things -- physical and emotional abuse, manipulation, disease, etc.

I don't see much difference between someone "selling" his/her body for factory work and a prostitute selling his/her body sex. I also don't think those are the only choices in either case. No one's forcing someone into a factory or in bed.

Lizard_King

03-21-2006, 07:37 PM

"Prostitution" is illegal because people think streetwalkers are icky. That's pretty much the explanation of any inconsistencies around pornography and whatnot.
That's actually a pretty good summary. Prostitution laws are right up there with drug laws in terms of encapsulating what happens when moral hypocrisy goes legislative.

Leah C

03-21-2006, 07:48 PM

Ok, let me try this again. Having sex with someone in exchange for a place to live is prostitution, because the definition of prostitution is trading sex for money, or something that is worth money. That's what prostitution is. There's no qualifier in there for whether or not you like being a prositute or whatever.

There is a huge grey area. If not, I know a lot of girls that are hooking for free drinks and dinners. Is the person living there doing so strictly as a business relationship? Are they a professional sex worker or submissive? Or, in the case of many S&M relationships, do things extend beyond the bedroom and are they just sharing a similar lifestyle?

I can't get behind the idea that prostitution is so simple. Sex and relationships aren't that simple.

Leah C

03-21-2006, 07:56 PM

No, being a prostitute is about taking money for sex. You can "enjoying sex" and feel the way you describe for free, but then that's not prostitution.

Go back and reread "you have the right to have sex with whomever you want, under whatever terms you want. "

You CAN do it for free, sure. But some people believe that you should also have the freedom to do it for cash or other compensation if you choose. There are "feminist prostitutes" who do it because they feel it's their body and their right. Hooking, even if just once or twice, is kind of their "fuck you" to the people telling them they can't. That's what I was getting at, with my explanation for my old prof.

Steve Canyon

03-21-2006, 08:24 PM

Go back and reread "you have the right to have sex with whomever you want, under whatever terms you want. "

You CAN do it for free, sure. But some people believe that you should also have the freedom to do it for cash or other compensation if you choose. There are "feminist prostitutes" who do it because they feel it's their body and their right. Hooking, even if just once or twice, is kind of their "fuck you" to the people telling them they can't. That's what I was getting at, with my explanation for my old prof.

I think what the prof is doing has very little to do with the realities of prostitution. Besides prohibiting exchanging money for sex, no one is forcing her to remain chaste or limit the terms of her sexual activites.

It's not clear to me how the prof having sex for money is actually advancing any worthwhile cause. Her activities are an academic exercise, much like this question about hypocricy that Rywill raises: sure it's sort of odd that you can't trade sex for money but you can marry for money; but that's where the line is drawn. Who cares? What nobody seems able to explain is how redrawing the line helps anyone. On the other hand, I can see how leagalizing prostitution makes it easier to become a prostitute, which seems to me like a bad thing.

TylerG

03-21-2006, 08:40 PM

So if I'm following this thread right, I can tell my date that she has to pay half the bill. Otherwise it might be taken as payment for sex and she could get arrested for prostitution. Right?

Steve Canyon

03-21-2006, 08:46 PM

So if I'm following this thread right, I can tell my date that she has to pay half the bill. Otherwise it might be taken as payment for sex and she could get arrested for prostitution. Right?

Unless she is willing to give you head for her half. Otherwise known as going dutch.

Leah C

03-21-2006, 08:50 PM

I think what the prof is doing has very little to do with the realities of prostitution. Besides prohibiting exchanging money for sex, no one is forcing her to remain chaste or limit the terms of her sexual activites.

I don't disagree with this. I do think it illustrates one end of the spectrum though, the other end being streetwalkers. There are a great many people inbetween doing it for a number of different reasons.

It's not clear to me how the prof having sex for money is actually advancing any worthwhile cause.

She made a room full of future health care workers, legal students, and advocates in the area of sex education and human sexuality think about and question prostitution, and she put a human face on it.

What nobody seems able to explain is how redrawing the line helps anyone. On the other hand, I can see how leagalizing prostitution makes it easier to become a prostitute, which seems to me like a bad thing.

I see it as a good thing because hopefully, it would make it safer. If women were protected by the law, they wouldn't have to fear turning in abusive pimps or johns. They could advertise in papers or on the internet instead of walking the streets and they wouldn't have to worry about being arrested and having their site shut down. If they were in a brothel, they'd have access to STD testing, condoms, a safe space with security guards, health care, etc.

Ben

03-21-2006, 09:01 PM

Steve- Some people, crazy as they may be, some people don't think people should have to justify why something should be legal to their government.

TylerG

03-21-2006, 09:01 PM

Edit: Darn slow posting. Sara already covered what I was going to say

Who cares? What nobody seems able to explain is how redrawing the line helps anyone. On the other hand, I can see how leagalizing prostitution makes it easier to become a prostitute, which seems to me like a bad thing.

Who cares? The prostitutes and johns obviously. If you can’t understand why redrawing the line helps anyone you're not trying very hard sara has already told you in this very thread:
Having rights is the difference between a brothel in Nevada, where they look over your wang with a blacklight and can safely refuse to service you, and a street in the Tenderloin where you're servicing someone behind a dumpster whether you like it or not. I'm not sure it makes sense to NOT fight for a prostitute's right to be a prostitute, if it means a safer environment for them to work in.

Realistically what exactly are the barriers to becoming a prostitute now?

Euri

03-22-2006, 05:27 AM

Realistically what exactly are the barriers to becoming a prostitute now?

Higher than you think. You have to submit yourself to a dangerous lifestyle, or move to Nevada, in order to do it. You don't just get to "set up shop" on the streetcorner. Some pimp may run you out, or beat you, or even kill you. Other prostitutes may do the same thing.

The fact of the matter is this:

Prostitution harms nobody. Not only that, but much like our drug laws, you can attribute DIRECT SUBSTANTIAL harm to outlawing it.

I was halfway through writing out the recollection of a person I know who was forced into prostitution but I don't think I will. Let it just be said that I think those who would keep prostitution illegal are either ignorant, stupid, or sick. Outlawing it has opened up so many people to unimaginable horror that would NOT exist were it just legal in the first place.

Euri

03-22-2006, 05:29 AM

Also, I'd like to point out that the Nevada brothels are safe havens. The women there are treated fantastically, the men enjoy themselves with some good clean fucking, and nobody gets hurt. I am fairly certain there have been no STDs detected in any of the workers there. That's a damn good track record.

Dave Perkins

03-22-2006, 07:40 AM

Let it just be said that I think those who would keep prostitution illegal are either ignorant, stupid, or sick. Outlawing it has opened up so many people to unimaginable horror that would NOT exist were it just legal in the first place.

I imagine that most folks who do not want to make prostitution lawful would argue that prostitutes made a choice, and if their choice leads to hardship, then tough beans for them.

These people likely never took sociology.

John Many Jars

03-22-2006, 07:55 AM

Unless she is willing to give you head for her half. Otherwise known as going dutch.

No, head is "French." "Dutch" is something very different.

DennyA

03-22-2006, 08:26 AM

God doesn't like prostitution. And this is a Christian country. Silly people.

mouselock

03-22-2006, 08:55 AM

Unfortunately, it's really a lot simpler (http://www.answers.com/prostitution&r=67) than that. Money or other material compensation for sex = prostitution. It doesn't actually matter whether you're doing it because that's just what you're into or because that's what you have to do to get your next ticket to the smack show. That's just what the word means.

So every housewife/girlfriend is a whore! Great! (Or are we going to whip out some suitable level of abstraction argument? "No officer, he gave me the $50 as a gift, and I was just so overjoyed at his generosity that I decided I needed to spontaneously blow him on the spot!"

mouselock

03-22-2006, 09:02 AM

The dating analogy falls apart for my side because there are no formal rights for a date to enjoy, but there are still traditional expectations. If you were dating a prostitute, it would mean you were not enjoying the same privledges other people who date enjoy, like exclusivity.

Polyamorists don't particularly enjoy exclusivity as a function of dating (or even marriage *gasp*). Yet I doubt they would classify themselves as prostitutes, nor would enjoy you doing so.

It basically boils down to an external societal pressure that says "Sex as its own mean isn't a good thing." If you put up the sham of a relationship these days, no matter how fleeting ("Hey, want to buy me a drink and then take me home, stud?") it's societally tolerated. Prostitution doesn't bother to put up a veneer to make others comfortable, so is looked down upon.

I wonder what the relative rates of abuse/drug use/etc.. are between a generic "prostitute" and a generic "town tramp". I doubt it's really possible to study them, but I suspect if you could you'd find similar rates of the "undesirable" side effects that people try to use to justify keeping prostitution illegal. (Perhaps more since the exchange of money tends to reinforce the "I don't owe you anything" motif, while there's no such clear boundary for the town tramp.)

mouselock

03-22-2006, 09:04 AM

"Prostitution" is illegal because people think streetwalkers are icky. That's pretty much the explanation of any inconsistencies around pornography and whatnot.

Plenty of people think porn is icky, though, Jason.

Steve Canyon

03-22-2006, 09:12 AM

God doesn't like prostitution. And this is a Christian country. Silly people.

Actually the Bible says Jesus came for the prostitutes (and sinners and sick, etc)

mouselock

03-22-2006, 09:12 AM

I think what the prof is doing has very little to do with the realities of prostitution. Besides prohibiting exchanging money for sex, no one is forcing her to remain chaste or limit the terms of her sexual activites.

You can't have it both ways. If prostitution is simply trading sex for money, then what the prof is doing is a reality of prostitution. What you're arguing, essentially, is that the act of prostitution inherently brings along societal consequences. This is what's normally used to prop up the idea that prostitution should remain illegal. However, it's entirely unclear that this is the case, and that these consequences stem from the act of prostitution (exchange of sex for money) rather than the state of prostitution (since it's illegal in 95% of the US, you have a de facto tendancy to encounter prostitution among other illegal activities, leading to the assumption of a false causal relationship).

Clearly it works fine in the places in which it's legal in NV. The girls are well protected and tend to work in situations that lets them maintain a far greater proportion of power than a typical streetwalker in some inner city urban area. That tends to argue against the idea that the act itself somehow is the cause of the problem, rather than the way in which it's necessarily practiced. So too does the relatively recent boom in escort services, the fact that strip clubs can function as reputable and aboveboard businesses, and a number of other indicators that say "Sex and money can comingle with a minimal amount of bad happenings attached, as long as that commingling is kept aboveboard enough that the possibly exploited part of the exchange is protected." Good escort services vet their client list, good strip clubs run good security and keep things from deteriorating, etc...

mouselock

03-22-2006, 09:17 AM

Actually the Bible says Jesus came for the prostitutes (and sinners and sick, etc)

To redeem them, though. Not to say "Hey, carry on, you're doing a bang-up job. Howsabout a quickie for the road? Next week's going to be rough!"

Steve Canyon

03-22-2006, 09:17 AM

I see it as a good thing because hopefully, it would make it safer. If women were protected by the law, they wouldn't have to fear turning in abusive pimps or johns. They could advertise in papers or on the internet instead of walking the streets and they wouldn't have to worry about being arrested and having their site shut down. If they were in a brothel, they'd have access to STD testing, condoms, a safe space with security guards, health care, etc.

If you read the article posted earlier, it says most prostitution has moved from the street to the classified ads already. I've already acknowledged it's good to make it safer for prostitutes, but there is no advantage that I can see for making prostitution a viable career option. Moralizing aside, who wants their daughter to grow up to be a prostitute?

Steve Canyon

03-22-2006, 09:19 AM

To redeem them, though. Not to say "Hey, carry on, you're doing a bang-up job. Howsabout a quickie for the road? Next week's going to be rough!"

Overheard at the local Walmarts: "Please have your redemption coupon ready when you reach the counter. Thank you!"

Leah C

03-22-2006, 09:28 AM

If you read the article posted earlier, it says most prostitution has moved from the street to the classified ads already. I've already acknowledged it's good to make it safer for prostitutes, but there is no advantage that I can see for making prostitution a viable career option. Moralizing aside, who wants their daughter to grow up to be a prostitute?

...and they wouldn't have to worry about being arrested and having their site shut down. Prostitutes now still have to worry about the legal issues, even though they have taken it off the streets and put it online/in papers. In addition to running the risk of being found online and shut down, they still have all of the other risks associated with it being illegal. They still have to worry about going to the police if something goes wrong with a john. They still have to move to Nevada if they want to be legal.

How can you make it safer without making it legal? Also, what exactly is wrong with making it a viable career option? Why should it be any less of an option than porn or stripping?

Steve Canyon

03-22-2006, 09:32 AM

You can't have it both ways. If prostitution is simply trading sex for money, then what the prof is doing is a reality of prostitution.

Bullshit. She's a professor, not a prostitute. She's trying to make a point, not a living.

What you're arguing, essentially, is that the act of prostitution inherently brings along societal consequences. This is what's normally used to prop up the idea that prostitution should remain illegal. However, it's entirely unclear that this is the case, and that these consequences stem from the act of prostitution (exchange of sex for money) rather than the state of prostitution (since it's illegal in 95% of the US, you have a de facto tendancy to encounter prostitution among other illegal activities, leading to the assumption of a false causal relationship).

Clearly it works fine in the places in which it's legal in NV. The girls are well protected and tend to work in situations that lets them maintain a far greater proportion of power than a typical streetwalker in some inner city urban area. That tends to argue against the idea that the act itself somehow is the cause of the problem, rather than the way in which it's necessarily practiced. So too does the relatively recent boom in escort services, the fact that strip clubs can function as reputable and aboveboard businesses, and a number of other indicators that say "Sex and money can comingle with a minimal amount of bad happenings attached, as long as that commingling is kept aboveboard enough that the possibly exploited part of the exchange is protected." Good escort services vet their client list, good strip clubs run good security and keep things from deteriorating, etc...

Go read the article someone posted earlier in this thread about the realities of prostitution. They use Nevada as an example. It's not the nirvana for prostittues you think it is.

Also, the sex industry is much bigger than prostitution and much of it is legal throughout the country (peep shows, strippers, lap dances, porn movies, etc), but the girls doing the legal stuff are still in dire straights. It's mostly the people who are the most vulnerable and weakest (new immigrants, single moms), not happy go lucky girls trying to work their way through college. I'm not sure how to protect the most vulnerable, but I sincerely doubt it has anything to do with relaxing the prostitution laws. That just seems like bad idea.

Steve Canyon

03-22-2006, 09:37 AM

what exactly is wrong with making [prostitution] a viable career option? Why should it be any less of an option than porn or stripping?

Because it's illeagal? How much more money do they make as prostitutes as opposed to strippers or some other form of legal sex industry work? You're not being realistic. I wish one of your professors would have taken you to talk to some prostitutes at rehab or homeless shelters. You only seem to see this issue from a very limitted position.

Leah C

03-22-2006, 09:41 AM

I wish one of your professors would have taken you to talk to some prostitutes at rehab or homeless shelters. You only seem to see this issue from a very limitted position.

I have met prostitutes that have gone through rehab, been homeless, have HIV, and have been raped and beaten. They were in my advocacy and legal classes, arguing that it should be legal to protect people from those things.

Steve Canyon

03-22-2006, 09:51 AM

I have met prostitutes that have gone through rehab, been homeless, have HIV, and have been raped and beaten. They were in my advocacy and legal classes, arguing that it should be legal to protect people from those things.

It is legal to protect people from rape and beatings. It's illegal to sell sex. What we need is a way to address the problems that cause people to land in rehab or homeless, but it's arguable whether legalizing prostitution is going to solve those problems.

Even though you've talked to some prostitutes in your class, I would encourage you to volunteer at the local drug rehab, homeless shelter, or even better, a woman's crisis shelter, if you have not already. If you come across prostitutes outside of your class, you may find their points of view surprising.

mouselock

03-22-2006, 09:52 AM

Bullshit. She's a professor, not a prostitute. She's trying to make a point, not a living.

Wait, just so I'm clear, you have no problems with her being a prostitute because she's got some other fine, upstanding job which redeems her as a person, then? She's not a "real" prostitute because of this? So prostitution isn't simply about the exchange of sex for money, then, right?

Go read the article someone posted earlier in this thread about the realities of prostitution. They use Nevada as an example. It's not the nirvana for prostittues you think it is.

No, NV isn't, because prostitution is only legal in certain places and even then, like any business, there will be unscrupulous assholes who try to take advantage of you. The legal brothels are far and away better than turning tricks on the street, though. And might be better still if it wasn't such a societally castigated role to begin with, right? Part of that castigation, btw, is a direct result of the stigma associated with practicing a profession that's illegal everywhere else. Because we, as stupid human creatures, often have problems applying our own judgement and just substitute society's judgement for our own.

It's mostly the people who are the most vulnerable and weakest (new immigrants, single moms), not happy go lucky girls trying to work their way through college. I'm not sure how to protect the most vulnerable, but I sincerely doubt it has anything to do with relaxing the prostitution laws. That just seems like bad idea.

THe problem is most of the reason it's the most vulnerable who do this is because no "right" person would want to, because they get tagged with the social stigma. It's a chicken/egg type thing. It's not inherent to the position; in other societies and other cultures these types of behavior are far more accepted. Hell, look at our society and the transformation of porn actresses over the last 10-15 years. Used to be the kiss of death, but these days they're actually approaching real celebrity status in some cases.

Everything you're railing against as an inherent evil of the sex trade is actually an inherent evil of the remnants of our puritanical viewpoint about sex. Inasmuch as that's not going to go away immediately, you're right: Opening up the sex trade in any way to more accessibility is probably bad in the short run. However, some folks believe that in the long run if you remove the institutional stigma, the societal one will eventually follow. It's far easier to look down on someone for doing something "bad" when the law backs you up than it is to look down on someone for doing something "bad" when it's just your moral qualms vs. theirs. (Mind you, the latter is still mind-numbingly easy in our judgemental little acre of the world, but less so than casting aspersions with the full weight of puritanical laws to prop up a since of moral righteousness.)

mouselock

03-22-2006, 09:57 AM

but it's arguable whether legalizing prostitution is going to solve those problems.

Solve, no. Of course not. Ameliorate though.. there's the question. The whole point some of us are trying to make here is that if prostitution is run as an aboveboard, legal business, you (ostensibly) don't have to dodge legal protection for yourself because of your line of work. If prostitution is legal, you can freely call the cops and say "Yeah, I was turning a trick, and my john beat the shit out of me. He's 5' 8", 165 pounds, blond hair, blue eyes, drives a 1998 gold Chevrolet Lumina with license plate number XXX." Instead of laying around and recuperating with no legal recourse because you were practicing a job that you can't tell the police you practice.

Either way prostitution is going to happen. If it's legal, however, you have legal protection. It's akin to the argument for legalizing drugs: Remove the lawlessness from the trade and you'll remove a lot of the ancillary bad effects, regardless of whether you consider the primary effect good or bad.

Steve Canyon

03-22-2006, 10:04 AM

Mouselock, all that has been said already earlier in the thread. I don't think I'm trying to moralize here, but if that's how you take it, so be it. Not much more to add, but I wanted to be the first to post this:

You know it's hard out here for a pimp (you ain't knowin)
When he tryin to get this money for the rent (you ain't knowin)
For the Cadillacs and gas money spent (you ain't knowin)
[1] Because a whole lot of bitches talkin shit (you ain't knowin)
[2] Will have a whole lot of bitches talkin shit (you ain't knowin)

[Djay]
In my eyes I done seen some crazy thangs in the streets
Gotta couple hoes workin on the changes for me
But I gotta keep my game tight like Kobe on game night
Like takin from a ho don't know no better, I know that ain't right
Done seen people killed, done seen people deal
Done seen people live in poverty with no meals
It's fucked up where I live, but that's just how it is
It might be new to you, but it's been like this for years
It's blood sweat and tears when it come down to this shit
I'm tryin to get rich 'fore I leave up out this bitch
I'm tryin to have thangs but it's hard fo' a pimp
But I'm prayin and I'm hopin to God I don't slip, yeah

[Chorus]

[Djay]
Man it seems like I'm duckin dodgin bullets everyday
Niggaz hatin on me cause I got, hoes on the tray
But I gotta stay paid, gotta stay above water
Couldn't keep up with my hoes, that's when shit got harder
North Memphis where I'm from, I'm 7th Street bound
Where niggaz all the time end up lost and never found
Man these girls think we prove thangs, leave a big head
They come hopin every night, they don't end up bein dead
Wait I got a snow bunny, and a black girl too
You pay the right price and they'll both do you
That's the way the game goes, gotta keep it strictly pimpin
Gotta have my hustle tight, makin change off these women, yeah

[Chorus]

Leah C

03-22-2006, 10:08 AM

It is legal to protect people from rape and beatings. It's illegal to sell sex. What we need is a way to address the problems that cause people to land in rehab or homeless, but it's arguable whether legalizing prostitution is going to solve those problems.

It's legal to be protected from those things but when someone is participating in an illegal activity, they're often scared to go forward and look for protection. I don't think that legalizing prostitution is going to help people stay out of rehab or off the streets, but at least they would know it's safe to go to the cops without being confronted with their own illegal activity.

Even though you've talked to some prostitutes in your class, I would encourage you to volunteer at the local drug rehab, homeless shelter, or even better, a woman's crisis shelter, if you have not already. If you come across prostitutes outside of your class, you may find their points of view surprising.

I've volunteered on and off, mostly at women's shelters, since I was 15. The majority of the sex workers and prostitutes I've known have not come from my classes, and I do realize that the ones I HAVE come across in school are a rare breed. My thoughts about legalizing it were there before though, back before I started my hippie dippy San Francisco college thing.

mouselock

03-22-2006, 10:57 AM

Mouselock, all that has been said already earlier in the thread. I don't think I'm trying to moralize here, but if that's how you take it, so be it. Not much more to add, but I wanted to be the first to post this:

I don't think you're moralizing either. I think we just have a difference of opinion as to where the "undesirable" things attach to prostitution. While I can't imagine anyone really wanting their daughter (or son) to grow up and be a prostitute, I'd like to hope that when I have kids my primary goal is for them to grow up and be happy, healthy, and safe. If it were to work out that they were happiest by being a prostitute, and they could be healthy and safe that way, while I might not understand it, I'd sure like to think that I'd support them in it. (Realistically, of course, I'm going to be disappointed if my kid(s) don't grow up to be a science nerd like me, but past that as long as they're truly happy I think that's what's important.)

Flowers

03-22-2006, 11:24 AM

There are a couple reasons prostitution is illegal.

The Womens' Side
1. Who will buy the whole cow when they can just buy the milk?
2. Men will be spoiled by women that don't tell them about their day and make their own money.
3. Sex for Money is a better trade than most men are getting now. Right now most men get Sex for Money, Companionship, Help, Support, and all that other crap on a variable ratio reward schedule.

For Men
1.

Ben

03-22-2006, 11:41 AM

Leah C

03-22-2006, 11:56 AM

Steve: Why should we make prostitution legal? Do you people want prostitution to be a viable career option?
sara: Why shouldn't it be a viable career option?
Steve: BECAUSE IT'S ILLEGAL!!!

Everyone else: *smacks head*

Should the topic come up again, I'll do the smart thing. Ignore it, and keep playing warcraft.

Tim Partlett

03-22-2006, 12:27 PM

Germany legalized prostitution a few years back, and it has generally been considered to have improved the lot of German prostitutes a great deal. They are now protected by all the same rights as other German workers, and this can make a huge difference. Unfortunately, due to the a hypocrisy enforced by irrational moralists, prostitutes are not fully recognised as a profession in all aspects of the law.

What this means is that a brothel cannot, like other industries, apply to the government to employ foreign (non-EU) nationals if they are short staffed. In Germany there is a short supply of German prostitutes, and a high demand for prostitution. Just like when it was illegal, this demand is going to get supplied no matter what the government says, and so the demand turns to illegal prostitution, and they bring in foreign workers. These foreign workers have zero protection, and end up suffering the same abuse as all prostitutes did before legalization.

As foreign prostitutes make up the majority of prostitutes in Germany, it means that, again, the moralists have ensured that people suffer because they cannot stomach someone not having the same strict views on sex as they do.

In my home country of Britain, the situation is even worse. Prostitution is still illegal there, and so most women ply their trade in dangerous dark back streets to avoid being seen by the police. This obviously means that they have almost zero protection from evil bastards who want to rape or kill someone for the hell of it. Another victory for morality.

Dave Perkins

03-22-2006, 12:49 PM

Tim, how do you respond to people who say, "Becoming a prostitute is a choice, and if the prostitutes suffer, they brought it on themselves"? Cuz I'm surrounded by such people.

Flowers

03-22-2006, 01:04 PM

Tell you how. Everything you do can bite you in the ass. There's sharp corners on the road we call life and you can hurt yourself if you're not careful, if you don't watch where you're going.
But there's nothing wrong with rounding out some of those corners, they don't care what you do to 'em, they're just corners, just sharp twists of fate.

Put in Flowerstalk. If you don't want those people to be safer then you want them to be raped. If you want people to be raped just because they make bad decisions, then I believe a Morton's Salt cannister and I would like to talk to you about some of your own life choices.

Chris Nahr

03-22-2006, 01:24 PM

Astonishingly, I agree with Tim Partlett on this political issue. There is no rational reason to make consensual prostitution illegal, and there is a lot of evidence that doing so creates random violence and organized crime. Same idiocy and same effect as making drugs illegal.

As to "I wouldn't want them in my neighborhood" arguments, that's not a problem -- any legal profession can be subject to zoning regulations. As to morality arguments -- people need to realize that legality and morality are two different things. Making prostitution legal in no way forces every citizen to regard it as moral.

Steve Canyon

03-22-2006, 01:55 PM

As to "I wouldn't want them in my neighborhood" arguments, that's not a problem -- any legal profession can be subject to zoning regulations.

That's the problem with the sex for rent question. Suddenly you've got the sex industry next door. If it's someone looking for a submissive partner it's different, but I have a hard time beleiving a person is going to agree to this sort of deal and then lead an otherwise normal life. To think otherwise is to delude yourself.

Steve Canyon

03-22-2006, 02:15 PM

Also, what exactly is wrong with making [prostitution] a viable career option? Why should [prostitution] be any less of an option than porn or stripping?

I thought this was obvious, but let me point out that although porn and stripping are legal, they are not typically considered viable career options. Not moralizing here, just being practical. Who sends their daughter to school to be a stipper? Parents are arrested for pointing thier children toward porn.

In my opinion all three "careers" are about equally viable regardless of legality. None of these career choices offer viable possiblities for growth and each should be avoided at all costs.

Jason McCullough

03-22-2006, 02:25 PM

You're doing the victorian fair-lady alternative thing. The alternate job choice for most people in sex work isn't "become a financial analyst," it's some shitty job.

Tim Partlett

03-22-2006, 02:28 PM

Tim, how do you respond to people who say, "Becoming a prostitute is a choice, and if the prostitutes suffer, they brought it on themselves"? Cuz I'm surrounded by such people.

Dave, I would say to them that there's no problem in thinking that people get what they deserve when they make choices in life, but ask them why the government should be ensuring that they suffer through legislation against a simple life choice?

As for having a brothel next door: I actually do, pretty much. A few doors down on the other side of the road from me is a very obvious brothel. I walk past it on the way to and from work. It doesn't bother me. It's clean, quiet (except on one occasion when they left a bedroom window open!), and occasionally I see a sheepish looking man or woman entering or leaving the building.

Steve Canyon

03-22-2006, 05:24 PM

You're doing the victorian fair-lady alternative thing. The alternate job choice for most people in sex work isn't "become a financial analyst," it's some shitty job.

As opposed to what, being a prostitute? I don't get it. Does it get much shittier than prostitution? You may be thinking of Julia Roberts style prostitution in, Pretty Woman. :)

Obviosuly almost anything in the sex industry is going to make more than flipping burgers at Micky Ds, but how much more can you make as a prostittue than you can in a legal venue like a strip or peep club?

Steve Canyon

03-22-2006, 05:27 PM

As for having a brothel next door: I actually do, pretty much. A few doors down on the other side of the road from me is a very obvious brothel. I walk past it on the way to and from work. It doesn't bother me. It's clean, quiet (except on one occasion when they left a bedroom window open!), and occasionally I see a sheepish looking man or woman entering or leaving the building.

You rent?

Linoleum

03-22-2006, 05:28 PM

fire

03-22-2006, 05:29 PM

I thought this was obvious, but let me point out that although porn and stripping are legal, they are not typically considered viable career options. Not moralizing here, just being practical. Who sends their daughter to school to be a stipper? Parents are arrested for pointing thier children toward porn.

In my opinion all three "careers" are about equally viable regardless of legality. None of these career choices offer viable possiblities for growth and each should be avoided at all costs.
I don't know what you're talking about. I am considering leaving my pointless, fruitless job as a firmware engineer to be a full-time stripper. Or a school teacher. Or both. I haven't decided.

Steve Canyon

03-22-2006, 05:31 PM

I don't know what you're talking about. I am considering leaving my pointless, fruitless job as a firmware engineer to be a full-time stripper. Or a school teacher. Or both. I haven't decided.

Yes! If you decide to go stripper, let me know the venue and I'll go get a fistfull of fifities.

Rimbo

03-22-2006, 05:47 PM

This same practice used to be called "marriage."

Jason McCullough

03-22-2006, 06:00 PM

As opposed to what, being a prostitute? I don't get it. Does it get much shittier than prostitution? You may be thinking of Julia Roberts style prostitution in, Pretty Woman. :)

Obviosuly almost anything in the sex industry is going to make more than flipping burgers at Micky Ds, but how much more can you make as a prostittue than you can in a legal venue like a strip or peep club?

My point was that there's a wide variety of jobs that suck and in general those are the jobs sex workers have as an alternative, so it doesn't make much sense to talk about what an awful job prostitution is. Not everyone considers sex work "a worse job" than the alternatives, or we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I'm not sure what the qualitative difference between stripping & prostitution is that you'd consider it a better in all cases alternative. Stripping is certainly more time intensive, I'd wager.

Rimbo

03-22-2006, 06:02 PM

Actually the Bible says Jesus came for the prostitutes (and sinners and sick, etc)

Good point, but a very poor choice of words. ;)

Nellie

03-22-2006, 06:22 PM

"Becoming a prostitute is a choice, and if the prostitutes suffer, they brought it on themselves"?

Damn those call centre workers. At least prostitutes gave me some pleasure.

cant we outlaw people in call centres? they universally piss me off.

Prostitutes are at least there for your pleasure.

Lunch of Kong

03-22-2006, 06:27 PM

That's the problem with the sex for rent question. Suddenly you've got the sex industry next door.

I don't see how you get from landlord-with-benefits to sex industry in one leap.

Rimbo's got a point too. This is a marriage of convenience. Not a marriage I'd make, but one that I think people should have a right to make.

Steve Canyon

03-22-2006, 07:43 PM

I'm not sure what the qualitative difference between stripping & prostitution

Legality is a big one that jumps to mind. If you want to do a legal job in the sex industry, what is wrong with using one of the existing options?

Also, have you ever talked to a prostitute? What makes you so sure legalizing prostitution makes sense? This is the kind of thing that sounds good in school but doesn't make sense for a lot of reasons.

Steve Canyon

03-22-2006, 07:46 PM

I don't see how you get from landlord-with-benefits to sex industry in one leap.

Just becasue they told you in health class that smoking a joint would lead you to harder stuff, doesn't mean it wasn't true. It stands to reason. Mabye not in every case, but in enough of them it shouldn't be considered legal.

Lizard_King

03-22-2006, 07:52 PM

Just becasue they told you in health class that smoking a joint would lead you to harder stuff, doesn't mean it wasn't true. It stands to reason. Mabye not in every case, but in enough of them it shouldn't be considered legal.
Legislation of vice makes sense only when a material case can be made based on hard facts and numbers that there is a utility to society significant enough to warrant limiting personal choices. All you have is a slippery slope argument widely recognized as absurd. Are you going to argue that prostitution fosters terrorism next?

bago

03-22-2006, 07:58 PM

Legalization would put pimps out of business. Pimps are just non-productive rent seekers (heh) who add little to no value to the transaction.

Get rid of pimps and you reduce the associated violence, as well as the incidence of disease.

Pimps don't slap da hoes in amsterdam.

Steve Canyon

03-22-2006, 08:19 PM

Steve Canyon

03-22-2006, 08:28 PM

Legislation of vice makes sense only when a material case can be made based on hard facts and numbers that there is a utility to society significant enough to warrant limiting personal choices. All you have is a slippery slope argument widely recognized as absurd. Are you going to argue that prostitution fosters terrorism next?

It's probalby easiesr for you to address one of my jokey posts with a bombastic response like this one here, but if you're interested in discussing the matter with me, I'd encourage you to read and respond to one of my actual arguments for keeping the status quo.

Jason McCullough

03-22-2006, 09:40 PM

Legality is a big one that jumps to mind. If you want to do a legal job in the sex industry, what is wrong with using one of the existing options?

Also, have you ever talked to a prostitute? What makes you so sure legalizing prostitution makes sense? This is the kind of thing that sounds good in school but doesn't make sense for a lot of reasons.

The legality is the entire thing under discussion!

Are you forum-shopping "but you haven't talked to any of them!" after it not working on sara? :)

fire

03-22-2006, 09:43 PM

Ben

03-22-2006, 10:07 PM

I'm pretty sure you're all wasting your time here. Steve is stuck in a loop of
"Why should X be legal?"
"Well, here."
"But it's illegal!"

Steve Canyon

03-22-2006, 10:13 PM

The legality is the entire thing under discussion!

Are you forum-shopping "but you haven't talked to any of them!" after it not working on sara? :)

Sara has not changed my mind, but she is okay in my book! I am glad she is volunteering at the shelters and think the world could use more people like her. I still do some volunteer work myself, but haven't spoken with any prostitutes in many years (at least not the "rounding error" types of prostitutes).

You should follow her example and then come back here and talk this mojo. I suspect you'll no longer wonder about the "qualitiative differences between strippers and prostitutes!" :)

Steve Canyon

03-22-2006, 10:17 PM

The legality is the entire thing under discussion!

Nice try. The question is why aren't the current legal options in the sex industry good enough?

Ben

03-22-2006, 10:17 PM

I still do some volunteer work myself, but haven't spoken with any prostitutes in many years (at least not the "rounding error" types of prostitutes).

You should follow her example and then come back here and talk this mojo. I suspect you'll no longer wonder about the "qualitiative differences between strippers and prostitutes!" :)

My head asplode.

Matthew Gallant

03-22-2006, 10:33 PM

why aren't the current legal options in the sex industry good enough?
Are you a eunuch?

Chris Nahr

03-22-2006, 11:48 PM

TimSteve, from a morality viewpoint what do you think is worse -- a prostitute or a porn video clerk telling your wife about the videos you're renting? :)

Lizard_King

03-23-2006, 02:51 AM

It's probalby easiesr for you to address one of my jokey posts with a bombastic response like this one here, but if you're interested in discussing the matter with me, I'd encourage you to read and respond to one of my actual arguments for keeping the status quo.
If that was a joke, you might be interested to know that it is virtually impossible for someone who isn't you to distinguish between that and your "real" arguments. Many things have been illegal all over the world and still are, now, and that makes such legislation no more justified or right.

Just out of curiousity, are you saying that Sara is correct because she argues against you with hands on experience with prostitutes, and the rest of us are wrong because we don't? That's ridiculous. That's possibly the worst argument I've ever seen.

MikeSofaer

03-23-2006, 08:09 AM

Have you chased me all these years only to fail now?

Steve Canyon

03-23-2006, 08:27 AM

TimSteve, from a morality viewpoint what do you think is worse -- a prostitute or a porn video clerk telling your wife about the videos you're renting? :)

:) :)

Steve Canyon

03-23-2006, 08:45 AM

LK, I never said Sara is correct. Sara and I disagree, but she is able to articulate her points without moralizing. I am trying to do the same. You may need to work a little harder in this respect.

Obvioulsy you don't have to have hands on experience with prostitutes to have an opinion, but it helps if you're at least willing to concede that every prostitite is not like Julia Roberts in Pretty Woman. A lot of prostitutes do have severe emotional and self esteem issues. If you spoke with any, I am sure you would realize this almost immediately. I am saying it might not make sense to make it easier for a young adults to become prostitutes.

Steve Canyon

03-23-2006, 08:46 AM

Are you a eunuch?

No (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=SUNA,SUNA:2005-51,SUNA:en&q=define%3A+steve+canyon). Steve Canyon was an action/adventure comic strip written by Milton Caniff. Caniff began the strip January 7, 1947 after retiring from the strip for which he was most famous, Terry and the Pirates. Steve Canyon ran until June 4 1988, shortly after Caniff's death. :)

mouselock

03-23-2006, 08:49 AM

LK, I never said Sara is correct. Sara and I disagree, but she is able to articulate her points without moralizing. I am trying to do the same. You may need to work a little harder in this respect.

There is an implicit moral assumption in your points though. Specifically, when you throw up things like "Daddy's don't want their little girls to grow up to be prostitutes." you're implicitly assuming the position of "prostitution is morally bad". (Well, unless your argument is that daddies don't want their girls to grow up to be prostitutes because they'll get beaten/raped/what have you; however if that was the case I'd think you'd be arguing the point directly of whether or not legalization would actually reduce these things, rather than the subjective viewpoint of what your average person would view someone in this field as which is, by definition, a moral judgement. It's not necessary that the moral come from a religious source or such.)

Steve Canyon

03-23-2006, 08:52 AM

Mouselock, come on. severe emotional and self esteem issues

Brian Koontz

03-23-2006, 08:59 AM

So what do folks think?

The right solution will not be inacted.

An experiment. Try this out in a small section of the country. Maybe a city, maybe a county, at most a state. See how it goes. If it goes well, expand it. If it goes poorly, retract it.

Americans labor under the notion that either the entire country needs something, or it doesn't belong there. That is more disastrous than almost any other American attitude today.

Think local, not national. Think small. Something great and small can grow.

America should be more divided, should have more differences across localities. Every locality its own bed of experimentation.

"Divided we stand, united we fall".

Why are we even discussing the legalization of marijuana endlessly? Legalize it in a SMALL section of the country already. Stop wasting our time.

shift6

03-23-2006, 09:33 AM

That's actually a pretty good summary. Prostitution laws are right up there with drug laws in terms of encapsulating what happens when moral hypocrisy goes legislative.
Drugs were outlawed as a response to other political pressures, not because people didn't like them. I suspect the same applies to prostitution. People thinking they are "icky" is what prevents them from being legalized, but I don't think it was the original motivator.

caveat: I know you weren't the one saying the "icky" bit, but vB doesn't do nested quotes and I'm lazy.

Rywill

03-23-2006, 09:38 AM

An experiment. Try this out in a small section of the country. Maybe a city, maybe a county, at most a state. See how it goes. If it goes well, expand it. If it goes poorly, retract it.
That's a really good idea that would probably solve this whole issue once and for all. Too bad nobody has ever thought to try it. You know what else that might work with? Gambling. Oh well, what can you do.

John Many Jars

03-23-2006, 09:52 AM

That's a really good idea that would probably solve this whole issue once and for all. Too bad nobody has ever thought to try it. You know what else that might work with? Gambling. Oh well, what can you do.

:chuckle out loud smiley:

Jason McCullough

03-23-2006, 12:18 PM

Sara has not changed my mind, but she is okay in my book! I am glad she is volunteering at the shelters and think the world could use more people like her. I still do some volunteer work myself, but haven't spoken with any prostitutes in many years (at least not the "rounding error" types of prostitutes).

You should follow her example and then come back here and talk this mojo. I suspect you'll no longer wonder about the "qualitiative differences between strippers and prostitutes!" :)

"Sure, I don't know any more of them personally than you do, but I bet if you talk to more of them you'll agree with me, unlike Sara, who's talked to lots of them."

Nice try. The question is why aren't the current legal options in the sex industry good enough?

Last I checked, the US was not founded on "everything is illegal by default unless you make a good case it shouldn't be." What do you mean, "good enough", anyway?

.....it helps if you're at least willing to concede that every prostitite is not like Julia Roberts in Pretty Woman.

This would be a great zinger, except no one has taken the position here that every prostitute is like Julia Roberts.

Steve Canyon

03-23-2006, 01:12 PM

"Sure, I don't know any more of them personally than you do, but I bet if you talk to more of them you'll agree with me, unlike Sara, who's talked to lots of them."

I have spoken with and known many prostitutes personally. I did volunteer work in rehabs in rural PA and NYC throughout the 80s. Were you to do the same, like sara, you might still disagree with me, but I suspect you would no longer be talking about "rounding errors" or the "qualitiative differences between strippers and prostitutes." I can't tell if you're putting me on or suffering from a romanticized view of what it's like to be a prostitute.

This would be a great zinger, except no one has taken the position here that every prostitute is like Julia Roberts.

I thought you said that the prostitutes with the most debilitating profiles were simply rounding errors, a product of the Hollywood mythos? I'm making a joke here, but you do seem to have a romantic notion of what it's like to be a prostitute. Rounding errors? Can't see much difference between a prostitute and stripper? Come on now.

Steve Canyon

03-23-2006, 01:18 PM

Nice try. The question is why aren't the current legal options in the sex industry good enough?
Last I checked, the US was not founded on "everything is illegal by default unless you make a good case it shouldn't be." What do you mean, "good enough", anyway?

You're going to have to do better than this to make a convincing argument to change the status quo. Prostitution enjoys a long history of being illegal. Not that it should continue to be illegal simply for that reason, but you have to do a better job of explaining your points.

Good enough means: why can't all those girls who want to be illegal prostitutes be legal strippers instead?

Leah C

03-23-2006, 01:55 PM

Good enough means: why can't all those girls who want to be illegal prostitutes be legal strippers instead?

Being a stripper requires a different set of skills, not everyone can come up with and carry out the routines, the hours of rehearsal are long, depending on the venue, you're limited to working at night, and not all prostitutes have a marketable look. There's a start.

Nick Walter

03-23-2006, 02:17 PM

Steve Canyon

03-23-2006, 02:18 PM

Being a stripper requires a different set of skills, not everyone can come up with and carry out the routines, the hours of rehearsal are long, depending on the venue, you're limited to working at night, and not all prostitutes have a marketable look. There's a start.

Those are valid points, but it misses the what I'm tyring to say. Substitute stripper with "currently legal job in the sex indsutry." That's my question. Why do you feel the sex industry ought to expand to include prostitution when there are already a number of sex industry jobs available? Surely there is some form of low energy peep show stripping available to even the most desparate people.

Leah C

03-23-2006, 02:35 PM

Those are valid points, but it misses the what I'm tyring to say. Substitute stripper with "currently legal job in the sex indsutry." That's my question. Why do you feel the sex industry ought to expand to include prostitution when there are already a number of sex industry jobs available? Surely there is some form of low energy peep show stripping available to even the most desparate people.

I think that realistically, those jobs are far out of reach. Where I grew up in the south, for example, you had to drive a few hours to get to the nearest strip club and most only had a handful of college girls working there on weekends. They weren't even open Sun-Thurs. If you want to do porn legally, you won't have any luck in a small town. And a peep show? I never even saw one til I moved to SF. You can hook anywhere, though.

Ben

03-23-2006, 02:51 PM

And I'm damn sure the US wasn't founded on "Not only to you have to justify why something should be legal, but that justification has to be grounded in an inability to make a living doing anything else."

Why can't we just trust the potential prostitute/stripper to choose which she'd rather be?

Leah C

03-23-2006, 02:54 PM

Why can't we just trust the potential prostitute/stripper to choose which she'd rather be?

Because that makes way too much sense!

bago

03-23-2006, 03:03 PM

That's what we built the government for, right? Messing with the most intimate exchanges between consenting adults.

Steve Canyon

03-23-2006, 04:10 PM

You can hook anywhere, though.

Not true!

You can only realistically solicit where solicitation occurs. You can try to start a new zone, but good luck with that. Even if it were to be made legal, you would still have zoning issues to contend with. As it is currently illegal, you're not going to make as much money in the places where there is currently no sex industry.

For every issue you come up with for legal sex industry jobs you're going to have the similar problems with prostitution jobs. You're still going to have the issue where most work is only available at certain times (night time) and some prostittutes not being unable "carry out the routine" (so to speak) as others. Prostitution is no panacea. You're merely expanding the sex industry.

On the down side, you're potentially creating a host of mental health issues that are going to need to be dealt with. Whom do you propose should deal with all the emotional and self esteem issues most of these new prostitutes will undoubtedly face? Nobody has addressed this other than to say that there are a few prostitutes, who clearly don't find the average mold, that are experiencing no ill effects. None of that seems very convincing.

Leah C

03-23-2006, 04:25 PM

Ben

03-23-2006, 04:25 PM

Steve-
You can only realistically solicit where solicitation occurs.

http://www.craigslist.com/ers/ (http://www.craigslist.com/ers/)

Whom do you propose should deal with all the emotional and self esteem issues most of these new prostitutes will undoubtedly face?

Call me crazy, but how about the prostitutes themselves?

Who deals with the emotional and self esteem issues of salesmen, ditch diggers, lawyers, etc.?

Steve Canyon

03-23-2006, 07:26 PM

As it is now, with it being illegal, you CAN hook anywhere if you decide to. Post an ad, answer something on CL, hit the streets, whatever. You can do it if you choose and I'm willing to bet that you can find a client even if there's currently no sex industry there. That's what I meant by hooking anywhere. In an alley, in the car, in your bedroom, motel, morning, night, whatever. You're not limited by the fact that the industry isn't there and you can't find a pole to slide down.

My point is you're not going to make much money as a prostitute in a small town. You're going to have to go somewhere there are already a lot of customers. If you're going to have to go to where the customers are anyhow, you might as well engage in something currently legal. On the other hand, if you're intent on staying in a small town, the upside is there are no pimps or strolls for you to contend with, so the safety issue is no longer on the table. If the safety issue is off the table, there REALLY is no reason to legalize.

I really don't think that legalizing prostitution is going to suddenly make all of these mental health issues crop up. Girls that won't sleep with people for money when it's illegal are probably not going to read the papers one day in the future, see a big headline that they can legally be paid for sex, and think "OMG ALL THAT PRACTICE AT BANDCAMP WAS TOTALLY WORTH IT!!" and hit the streets.

I agree. Most of the kids who were going to do it will do it whether it is illegal or not, so it's not like there is going to be a sudden surge in mental health issues. That's not the same as saying it's not an issue. The problem is not that prostitution is illegal; the problem is that the prostitutes end up broken. Maybe the answer I can live with is making the age to enter service as a legal prostitute a little higher then the normal age of majority, like say 35. :)

I'm just not sure there is a compelling reason to make it easier to be a prostitute.

Bill Dungsroman

03-23-2006, 11:59 PM

I'm just not sure there is a compelling reason to make it easier to be a prostitute.

You haven't seen my penis and bank account, Steve!

bago

03-24-2006, 12:03 AM

the problem is that the prostitutes end up broken

That's rather a bold assertion.

John Many Jars

03-24-2006, 08:25 AM

Timbo, you're as stubborn as a double-headed mule.

Rywill

03-24-2006, 09:16 AM

Timbo, you're as stubborn as a double-headed mule.
This just in: ocean wet; Antarctica cold. Stay tuned!!

Steve Canyon

03-24-2006, 09:37 AM

The girl on the ass is a prostitute.

That's Steve Canyon and his trusty mule, Pimp, rescuing her.

We're all going to church!

http://www.korynna.com/images/Stubborn%20As%20A%20Mule.jpg

John Many Jars

03-24-2006, 10:50 AM

Wow, what an ass!

Steve Canyon

03-24-2006, 03:55 PM

Wow, what an ass!

I'd just like to point out that Steve Canyon previously rescued the donkey, Pimp, from a thankless sex industry career in Tijuana, where the poor ass was being exploited.

Steve Canyon: rescuing prostitutes the old fashioned way, one at a time.

Huzza!

Glenn

03-24-2006, 04:40 PM

FWIW, I approve of this thread and want to join in. Since I have nothing to say, here is a picture of my ass.

http://www.keyway.ca/jpg/donkey.jpg

Lunch of Kong

03-24-2006, 04:54 PM

You haven't seen my penis and bank account, Steve!

rofl. nice reply. :)

Steve Canyon

03-24-2006, 05:26 PM

rofl. nice reply. :)

He is Roger W. Wong and he approves this message.

Lunch of Kong

03-24-2006, 05:47 PM

What does the W. stand for?

Steve Canyon

03-24-2006, 06:24 PM

What does the W. stand for?

In your name it's just there to make a pun on the G.W. Bush commercials from the last election. In G. W.'s name, it stands for Wanker.

Steve Canyon

03-30-2006, 09:56 PM

Someone mentioned legalized prostitution in Germany and I just saw this, which seems to corroborate some of my concerns on legalization. Looks like it might make more sense to leave prostitutin illegal and focus state initiatives on creating real opportunity for prostitutes. But I bet you wacky kids new this already and have just been pulling my leg along.

Prostitutes retrain as nurses, tele-marketers

BERLIN (Reuters) - German prostitutes are signing up for a career change, training to become nurses to tend to the country's aging population or working phones as tele-marketers.

"Competition in prostitution is fierce and the days when one could make a decent living out of it are long gone, especially once you hit the thirties," [the project coordinator for this program] said.

She said prostitutes' fees had hit rock bottom and they were well suited to jobs on offer in the retraining program.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/germany_prostitution_dc

Ben

03-30-2006, 10:02 PM

corroborate

I don't think this means what you think it means. Unless you think that this article (http://www.usnews.com/usnews/biztech/articles/040531/31retrain.htm) is an argument for criminalizing toolmaking.

Steve Canyon

03-30-2006, 11:47 PM

I don't think this means what you think it means. Unless you think that this article (http://www.usnews.com/usnews/biztech/articles/040531/31retrain.htm) is an argument for criminalizing toolmaking.

Not sure I would compare worker retraining programs in legal industries with rehabilitating prostitutes, but that's just me. I also think expanding the legal sex industry to include prostitution is a poor idea all around.

I would also like to corroborte that I have no idea what any of this has to do with the word "corroborte."

Chris Nahr

03-31-2006, 01:48 AM

I love this part of the article:

"After years of prostitution, they know how to listen, look after people and are savvy in selling over the phone," she said.

Selling insurances with phone sex! New business opportunities abound!

But yeah, I don't know what this has to do with anything "Steve" has been saying in this thread...

Steve Canyon

03-31-2006, 07:15 AM

But yeah, I don't know what this has to do with anything "Steve" has been saying in this thread...

I can help you with that. Steve says legal prostitution isn't the panacea people think it is. Steve says let the prostitutes work at jobs that are currently legal.

Nick Walter

03-31-2006, 07:32 AM

I can help you with that. Steve says legal prostitution isn't the panacea people think it is. Steve says let the prostitutes work at jobs that are currently legal.

Steve apparently can't grasp that fact that no amount of laws have ever been able to put a stop to the worlds oldest profession, so the legality of prostituition is mostly an argument about whether we let working girls work in an unregulated dangerous environment or we let them work in a safe regulated environment.

Brian Koontz

03-31-2006, 09:17 AM

Steve apparently can't grasp that fact that no amount of laws have ever been able to put a stop to the worlds oldest profession, so the legality of prostituition is mostly an argument about whether we let working girls work in an unregulated dangerous environment or we let them work in a safe regulated environment.

Over Puritan's dead body!... it is the one who enjoys the "unregulated danger" of sex... there's nothing like a taboo to increase the excitement factor for these lovely humans. Mix in some Pimp slapping and you give them the wonderful orgy of sex and violence... after this orgy they get to take a shower and go about their business as a "respectable citizen" until their next craving...

Puritan: "Legalize paid sex? What? No! I stand firmly against such a thing! Morally against it! I protect the ladies! Their vaginas are sacrosanct!"

Puritan thinks: Oh, those prostitutes are so bold... going against this oppressive law... so exciting. The mob the same way... building their own law - shunning the good people. How I respect them... how I hate myself for oppressing them. Will they gain their freedom one day? Ah - but they must be oppressed... they are too dangerous otherwise. I am weak for needing the protection of law. I will hide this weakness, pretend the law is strength, pretend I am noble in living under it.

Puritan with airs of sophistication sneers at the law: this mockery called law. This "constitution", such as it is, I don't need it. I am my own man, I am free, anyone who needs law is weak. I want to be a Gangster. Life on my own terms... anyone who gets in my way gets what's coming. Don't talk to me about propriety, don't CHAT to me, I'm a serious man in a ridiculous condemned world. I'm a revolutionary, a hero. Its all about change, its about my world, about my creation. I will redeem the world or die trying. I am the Last Nobleman in a world of scum. My sneer, my smirk, is my attitude toward this world... we who smirk will bring a New World Order. Nothing that continues to live will get in our way.

Gotta love humans.

Ben Sones

03-31-2006, 09:32 AM

Gotta love humans.

They don't seem that special to me, but I guess I lack an outsider's perspective.

Nick Walter

03-31-2006, 09:32 AM

Oh Jesus I've been Koontzed. I surrender.

Steve Canyon

03-31-2006, 10:04 AM

the legality of prostituition ismostly an argument about whether we let working girls work in an unregulated dangerous environment

Making it safer for prostitutes is fine with me. I'm just not sure legalization makes sense for all the reasons I've already mentioned. I know I've mentioned all this already so I'll just point you to the start of the thread.

Nick Walter

03-31-2006, 01:25 PM

Making it safer for prostitutes is fine with me. I'm just not sure legalization makes sense for all the reasons I've already mentioned. I know I've mentioned all this already so I'll just point you to the start of the thread.

Nick wins the debate with Steve because Steve forgot to refer to participants in the third person.

Steve Canyon

03-31-2006, 02:48 PM

It's not even clear that legalization is going to make prostitution safer in some key areas. I think distributing condoms to prostitutes, like they do with syringes for addicts, makes a lot more sense.

It's already illegal to beat or rape a prostitute, so I'm not satisfied that making prostitution a legal profession is really going to change that. If the police didn't want to help prostitutes when it was illegal, what makes you think they are suddenly going to change their minds? Because of legalisation? I doubt it.

Of course, the downside is that if you legalize, you have now just made it easier to become a prostitute, which is a bad idea. Look at the linke above: not great money, tough compitition, only good when you're very young. Why would you want to make it easier to become a prostitute? This is a poor idea that really needs to be disccouraged.

Stroker Ace

03-31-2006, 02:51 PM

Steve: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibition

SlyFrog

03-31-2006, 02:52 PM

I want to be a Gangster. Life on my own terms... anyone who gets in my way gets what's coming.

I hear that G. DAMN it feels good to be a Gangster.

John Many Jars

03-31-2006, 03:06 PM

I'm starting to hate prostitutes. They're constantly coming up to me on the street, in the grocery store, outside the building where I work --- everywhere --- and offering me huge sums of money, saying, "Let me enjoy sex again, JMJ," and "Show me how good it can be, JMJ," and "Make me feel like a woman at last, JMJ." And I'm all like, "Um, I have to get home and play Morrowind," but they just don't listen.

They call my house at all hours; I change my number, but somehow they get the new one. Their pimps complain, and I tell them I can't help my natural gifts; they threaten, and then I have to pop a cap in they ass, which disrupts my RPG immersion later when the cordite smell won't leave my foyer. I don't think legalization will help, either.

Steve Canyon

03-31-2006, 05:03 PM

Steve: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibition

Making alcohol illegal is not at all similar to making prostitution legal. Were we talking about legalizing drugs, you might have a point.

Nick Walter

03-31-2006, 05:57 PM

Making alcohol illegal is not at all similar to making prostitution legal. Were we talking about legalizing drugs, you might have a point.

Nick thinks it's still similar enough to be a valid comparison for the purposes of this thread, as both are things that happen regardless of whether they are illegal or not. Nick thinks the only difference is whether the profits go to licensed business or criminals.

P.S. Nick is still winning the debate based on the third-person references.

Steve Canyon

03-31-2006, 07:28 PM

Nick thinks [making drinking illegal is] similar enough [to making prostitution legal] to be a valid comparison for the purposes of this thread, as both are things that happen regardless of whether they are illegal or not. Nick thinks the only difference is whether the profits go to licensed business or criminals.

Nick blatenly ignores the obvious: bar tenders are hardly comparable to prostitutes, unless Nick is thinking of the lovely Pretty Woman kind of prostitutes seen only in Hollywood.

Nick will soon come up with more "things that happen regardless of whether they are illegal or not." We can only hope that breathing and eating are not deemed comparable to drinking and prostituting for the purposes of this thread.

extarbags

03-31-2006, 08:23 PM

Extarbags thinks it's silly to try to compare prostitution to prohibition, because it's completely unnecessary; all one has to do is compare legal prostitution in Nevada with illegal prostitution everywhere else. It isn't hard to see the differences.

Steve Canyon

03-31-2006, 09:10 PM

compare legal prostitution ... with illegal prostitution

Exactly. That's why I posted the link on the last page, about prostitutes changing careers, and the poor conditions for prostitutes in Germany, where prostitution is legal.

Matthew Gallant

03-31-2006, 09:15 PM

Come on Steve, that article was basically an ad for the church group providing the retraining, and even then they had just thirty girls in the program. Not to mention that the line about "fees hitting rock bottom" was quoted from the leader of the church program.

Steve Canyon

03-31-2006, 11:01 PM

Come on yourself, Matthew.

What is wrong with church funding? You can tell it's not moralizing because they don't say which god is responsible for putting up the cash. It could be a synagoge or a mormon temple for all you and I know.

Gisela Zohren is working with prostitutes in Germany. If she says the "fees have hit rock bottom," who the fuck cares if you disagree. Come up with a link showing the fees are at their higest in years if you want to talk.

And there are more girls on the waiting list. What, did you expect the church to rescue all the German prostitutes in one fell swoop?

Steve Canyon

03-31-2006, 11:11 PM

This doesn't relate directly to prostitution, but here is an interesting article for those of you holding up Nevada as some sort of utopia.

http://www.newsreview.com/reno/Content?oid=oid%3A24924

Why is life in Nevada so lousy?

That the quality of life in Nevada is lousy isn't an arguable point except among the dogmatic and chauvinist. It's an objective reality. We may love the land and the people, we may not want to live anywhere else, but the empirical evidence is indisputable. Consider just the question of life itself--people in Nevada die sooner, according to census statistics. Living in any of the six states surrounding Nevada gets someone significantly more time on this earth. Utah gets you three and a half extra years.

A lot of officials say that the quality of life is bad because of the unhealthful lifestyles of Nevadans, but that's not what I'm looking for, either--poor personal choices are part of the problem, not the explanation. Why is this state, in particular, filled with people who pursue unhealthful lifestyles?

The sheer number of Nevada's wounds as a society is astonishing. From cradle (a high rate of medically uninsured children) to grave (a high rate of suicide among senior citizens), Nevada is the place sensible people would avoid. The state is at the wrong end of rankings like reading skills, child immunizations, homicide against women, alcohol- and drug-related deaths, toxic releases, firearms deaths, infectious disease, dropout rate (at both high-school and college levels), tobacco use, prenatal care, voter turnout, rate of working people in poverty, suicide young and old, tobacco-related deaths, children's health, health generally, health insurance coverage, and crimes of all types. One study adjudged Nevada to be the most dangerous state.

Playing into all this is the state's economic engine, and here is where the casinos come in. In many ways, Nevada's major industry is not gambling or tourism--it's preying on human weaknesses. During 140 years, Nevada has made activities legal that were legal nowhere else, from prizefighting to quickie divorce to gambling to prostitution to cancer cures to youth drugs. In doing so, however pioneering the state's role turned out to be, it was hardly telling new arrivals to be good citizens.

Chris Nahr

04-01-2006, 01:28 AM

Exactly. That's why I posted the link on the last page, about prostitutes changing careers, and the poor conditions for prostitutes in Germany, where prostitution is legal.

The article did not in any way mention "poor conditions for prostitutes in Germany". Steve just made that up. The article mentioned "poor fees" which just means they had a safe job that didn't pay as well as they'd hoped. Steve, as an ardent opponent of prostitution, should be very happy with that.

Steve Canyon

04-01-2006, 09:39 AM

The article mentioned "poor fees" which just means they had a safe job that didn't pay as well as they'd hoped.

If you're talking about flipping burgers at McDonalds that's probably true, but if you're a prostitute, I'd argue there isn't much of a qualitative difference between poor fees and poor conditions. If you're not getting good fees, what's the point?

As for a safe job, we can only hope the German government is ensuring the prostitutes use condoms and are not beaten or raped by their customers, but the article doesn't go into any of that. All we know for sure is that it's legal, if not profitable, to be a prostitute in Germany.

Steve Canyon

04-01-2006, 09:51 AM

Steve, as an ardent opponent of prostitution, should be very happy with [poor fees for prostitues].

I am an ardent opponent of legalized prostitution. Doesn't make sense. Perhaps a more sensible approach is to focus arrests on pimps and customers, but that's a different argument.

I could care less about low fees. If prostitutes are going to trade sex for money, I would at least hope they get a profitable deal.

Raife

04-01-2006, 10:23 AM

I could care less about low fees.

So you care about low fees, but would like to care less about them?

extarbags

04-01-2006, 10:23 AM

I am an ardent opponent of legalized prostitution. Doesn't make sense.

What doesn't make sense about it?

Steve Canyon

04-01-2006, 10:34 AM

What doesn't make sense about it?

Read the thread.

fire

04-01-2006, 10:41 AM

http://www.freehomepages.com/jweyand1/vdgirl.jpg

Ben

04-01-2006, 11:19 AM

extarbags- I'll spare you from reading the thread, because it will just make you want to punch your monitor. Timeve Canyjj doesn't think prostitution should be legal because being a prostitute is against the law.

Lunch of Kong

04-01-2006, 03:23 PM

that website doesnt allow direct linking, fire. everyone else sees a "free homepage" logo. :(

Brian Koontz

04-01-2006, 08:10 PM

They don't seem that special to me,

You'll have to take that up with Humanism. I'm just providing the satire thereof.

but I guess I lack an outsider's perspective.

O RLY? Sometimes I wonder why I'm so much less afraid than everyone else seems to be. Maybe its because while humans worry that nothing stands over them to guide them, I'm relieved that nothing stands over me to guide me. Humans seem to have little faith in *themselves*... this is the age of human control over its own destiny. Its really a very exciting, ebullient, almost delirious time. Heck, even *insanity* is cool.

We are SO confident that we can take on fascism without even blinking an eye. We create worlds in the image of the traditional one to reflect upon it. We delve into our deepest horrors, our most shame-filled weaknesses, BECAUSE WE CAN. The humans of the past, so primitive, so pathetic, so blind, so cowardly. We are the humans who can handle anything.

Who's the outsider, Ben?... maybe its you. Not me, Ben... not me.

Raife

04-01-2006, 08:22 PM

You'll have to take that up with Humanism. I'm just providing the satire thereof.

Is that what that was? Huh.

O RLY? Sometimes I wonder why I'm so much less afraid than everyone else seems to be.

It only seems that way because you're communicating with an audience of one.

Maybe its because while humans worry that nothing stands over them to guide them, I'm relieved that nothing stands over me to guide me. Humans seem to have little faith in *themselves*... this is the age of human control over its own destiny. Its really a very exciting, ebullient, almost delirious time. Heck, even *insanity* is cool.

Earth to Brian, this age has been going on for thousands of years.

Who's the outsider, Ben?... maybe its you. Not me, Ben... not me.

Maybe on Bizarro World.

Ranulf

04-01-2006, 11:11 PM

I'm not sure why you say that. Prostitution is going to be like selling drugs in that it brings a bad element into your neighborhood. The prostitute may be able to keep it cool for a few weeks or months, just like the guy selling drugs, but eventually it's going to come crashing down.

This of course explains high class escorts.... they're always bringing down the neighborhood.

I am an ardent opponent of legalized prostitution. Doesn't make sense. Perhaps a more sensible approach is to focus arrests on pimps and customers, but that's a different argument.

I could care less about low fees. If prostitutes are going to trade sex for money, I would at least hope they get a profitable deal.

You want prostitution kept illegal? Reform marriage/divorce laws and brainwash society to stop being such horny minks. Modern marriage in many ways is prostitution. I've known so called "housewives" who could really only not be considered prostitutes because they were "married".

Steve Canyon

04-02-2006, 12:09 AM

This of course explains high class escorts.... they're always bringing down the neighborhood.

Trading sex for rent doesn't take into account escort services. Not sure how that would even work. You imagine the person trading sex for rent would be a little more desperate then the person working as an escort, but I guess anything can happen. At any rate, if this is what you were getting at, you may be right: sex for rent may pose no risk to the neighborhood if the person renting is a escort service prostitute.

You want prostitution kept illegal? Reform marriage/divorce laws and brainwash society to stop being such horny minks. Modern marriage in many ways is prostitution. I've known so called "housewives" who could really only not be considered prostitutes because they were "married".

Equating marriage to a prostitution is not a new idea. Nevertheless, I'm not sure what that has to do with keeping actual prostitution illegal. For example, if we do nothing to "reform' marriage tonight, won't prostitution still be illegal when we wake up in the morning? :)

Damien Falgoust

04-02-2006, 08:43 AM

Modern marriage in many ways is prostitution. Only without the sex!

Bill Dungsroman

04-02-2006, 09:22 AM

I love it when Brian says "humans." I've often pictured him as some really poorly-programmed solopsist bot, so when he says stuff like that I picture Una-Blab sitting at a PC going all "SIL-LEE HU-MANS BDEEP BDEEP."

Kalle

04-02-2006, 09:34 AM

I am an ardent opponent of legalized prostitution. Doesn't make sense. Perhaps a more sensible approach is to focus arrests on pimps and customers, but that's a different argument.

That would be the Swedish take on prostitution laws. Selling sex is not a crime in Sweden, but buying sex or selling the sexual services of other people is. I don't have any handy statistics on the matter but I think it's a sensible approach. It goes after the demand instead of the supply and acknowledges that the prostitutes are generally speaking the weaker party in the transaction.

Ranulf

04-02-2006, 01:25 PM

That would be the Swedish take on prostitution laws. Selling sex is not a crime in Sweden, but buying sex or selling the sexual services of other people is. I don't have any handy statistics on the matter but I think it's a sensible approach. It goes after the demand instead of the supply and acknowledges that the prostitutes are generally speaking the weaker party in the transaction.

Which is of course, generally speaking, an ludicrous argument. Weaker party at $300 an hour? Unless of course you buy into the mentality regarding "sex slaves" wholesale, world wide that shows up in reports like this: http://action.web.ca/home/catw/readingroom.shtml?x=16727&AA_EX_Session=8045a73f84bcd45052cf0d018c3d4649

Not that sex slavery doesnt happen, but it I think it tends to fall into the criminal side when its illegal more than when its a legal activity IMHO. Lets only go after drug users instead of dealers. Or even better, stop all lawsuits against cigarette companies too. Lock up all smokers instead. Don't lock up bar tenders who sell to obviously drunk customers, lock up the person walking out of the bar after 2 beers (Texas AC iirc) or lock up that bastard coming out of the liquor store walking to his car to drive home. He could be drunk driving on his way home!

Kalle

04-02-2006, 01:54 PM

Yes, weaker party. They are selling themselves on a market with no shortage of labour which requires little in the way of trainable skills and the only career they have is dependant on their looks. And then there's the not so minor fact that prostitutes sell themselves to make a living while their clients won't go hungry/run out of drugs/miss the rent if they stay away from the streets.

fire

04-02-2006, 03:02 PM

that website doesnt allow direct linking, fire. everyone else sees a "free homepage" logo. :(
http://www.yikes.com/~fire/qt3/vdgirl.jpg

Bill Dungsroman

04-02-2006, 07:06 PM

Heh. I had a great-uncle who was an airborne infantryman in WW2. He mentioned stuff like that, and having to fall in for "Short Arm Inspection."

SlyFrog

04-02-2006, 07:07 PM

SlyFrog

04-02-2006, 07:08 PM

Heh. I had a great-uncle who was an airborne infantryman in WW2. He mentioned stuff like that, and having to fall in for "Short Arm Inspection."

Cover your stump before you hump!

fire

04-02-2006, 08:35 PM

Should my job be illegal?
Do you engage in sexual intercourse for money? That's the dividing line.

I understand where you're coming from, thoug: there's a fine, fine line between customer service and getting laid. :roll:

Enidigm

04-02-2006, 08:38 PM

Funny thing is that for guys, getting tons of sex every day - and getting PAID to do it - is pretty much the same as the Islamic version of heaven.

Personally i don't have a problem with prostitution if the society takes all the necessary messy and discomforting steps to ensure the health and safety of both the women and those whom use them. I think that if prostitution were legal eventually those women whom became more 'courtisanly' would be the ones to command the highest prices, and those whom simply shed their clothes and did the deed would be pushed to the lower markets. It's clear this is indeed true, because for most of history courtisans were a part of society, either in the shadows or openly, and their higher arts that seperated them from the farm girls were their intelligence, sophistication, demeanor and charms.

We're already heavily pushing the feminine beauty = power angle enough already though, and i'm not really sure if it's a healthy thing for women in the long run to make the highest paid prostitutes the most respected and celibrated women around. I'm kind of fond of the old 70's examples of womens lib trying to push girls into position of "real" power. However there will always be some women that would just want to be prostitutes if the opportunity presented itself - just because. So i guess there should be some official and safe means for this lifestyle.

Steve Canyon

04-02-2006, 11:28 PM

Funny thing is that for guys, getting tons of sex every day - and getting PAID to do it - is pretty much the same as the Islamic version of heaven.

I think this is misguided. Based on the volunteer work I did in the 80s, the reality of male prostitution is that those guys are mainly sleeping with other men, regardless of the prostitute's sexual orientation.

Enidigm

04-03-2006, 05:39 AM

I'm pretty sure that's not how Islamic believers interpreted the 42 virgins!

SlyFrog

04-03-2006, 09:21 AM

Do you engage in sexual intercourse for money? That's the dividing line.

I understand where you're coming from, thoug: there's a fine, fine line between customer service and getting laid. :roll:

You're right, because in discussing whether you might do something for money that you'd prefer not to do or that you might think is unseemly, it is impossible to deviate from sex being involved. Other possibilities or analogies can not enter into the equation. Perhaps bring up sex and why it must be involved, and why it is a differentiator could shed light on the issue generally, or no, I guess not. That type of questioning is clearly impossible. So sorry.

extarbags

04-03-2006, 09:36 AM

Life is prostitution. I hate my fucking job, yet I take my body there every freaking day because I need/like the money. I'm pretty sure I hate most of my clients more than a trick hates a john. I go numb everyday I'm there, and try to spend my time thinking of other things, much like your movie whore has the far away look while she's getting ridden rough and hard.

Should my job be illegal?

But that's not what prostitution is. It's actually really, really simple: prostitution is exchanging sex acts for money. That's just what it is. It doesn't matter that you hate your job and you feel like you're selling yourself, making you a figurative whore; what we're talking about are literal whores. That is to say, people who get paid to perform sex acts. You can't just make up fun new definitions of words.

Preemptive rebuttal: Yes, I know that you could actually fit under a secondary definition of the word, thanks to the symbolic definition being accepted in addition to the literal one. But because we're talking about the legal status of prostitution, it only makes sense to use the legal definition.

SlyFrog

04-03-2006, 10:47 AM

But that's not what prostitution is. It's actually really, really simple: prostitution is exchanging sex acts for money. That's just what it is. It doesn't matter that you hate your job and you feel like you're selling yourself, making you a figurative whore; what we're talking about are literal whores. That is to say, people who get paid to perform sex acts. You can't just make up fun new definitions of words.

I'm not making up new definitions. I understand the distinction. But as I suggested earlier, perhaps there is something to be gained from discussing or understanding why doing one thing with your body for money is so problematic, while doing other things with your body for money is perfectly acceptable everyday work. To understand the taboos, why they exist, and why it is a different case. Because I see a lot of people here treating the exchange of sex for money as though it were the same as breaking down your body in a factory for money, but they then do not want to discuss the similarities and differences. I think you need to, to understand why society has proscribed one and not the other, and to question whether that is valid.

For example, I do not think I would have a problem with my wife working in a warehouse all day (other than it would be a crappy, boring job). I'd have a big problem with my wife working as a prostitute all day. I think most people would. I also think that as a society, we do have the right to make illegal things that a large majority believes should be taboo or forbidden. At some level we have to; there is no reason I should not be able to steal things from you simply because you claim they are "your property," other than societal viewpoints toward property ownership and the propriety of taking private property, which in itself is a societal construct.

Steve Canyon

04-03-2006, 11:16 AM

I'm pretty sure that's not how Islamic believers interpreted the 42 virgins!

Which is exactly why I say it is misguided. :)

extarbags

04-03-2006, 11:24 AM

I'm not making up new definitions. I understand the distinction. But as I suggested earlier, perhaps there is something to be gained from discussing or understanding why doing one thing with your body for money is so problematic, while doing other things with your body for money is perfectly acceptable everyday work. To understand the taboos, why they exist, and why it is a different case. Because I see a lot of people here treating the exchange of sex for money as though it were the same as breaking down your body in a factory for money, but they then do not want to discuss the similarities and differences. I think you need to, to understand why society has proscribed one and not the other, and to question whether that is valid.

For example, I do not think I would have a problem with my wife working in a warehouse all day (other than it would be a crappy, boring job). I'd have a big problem with my wife working as a prostitute all day. I think most people would. I also think that as a society, we do have the right to make illegal things that a large majority believes should be taboo or forbidden. At some level we have to; there is no reason I should not be able to steal things from you simply because you claim they are "your property," other than societal viewpoints toward property ownership and the propriety of taking private property, which in itself is a societal construct.

Then the question you want to answer is "Why is prostitution problematic?," not "What defines prostitution?" Prostitution is what it is, and it's absolutely easy to decide what constitutes it.

SlyFrog

04-03-2006, 11:41 AM

Then the question you want to answer is "Why is prostitution problematic?," not "What defines prostitution?" Prostitution is what it is, and it's absolutely easy to decide what constitutes it.

I don't think I ever asked "What defines prostitution." If I did, it was rhetorical.

extarbags

04-03-2006, 11:51 AM

That's what I took this to be about:

Life is prostitution. I hate my fucking job, yet I take my body there every freaking day because I need/like the money. I'm pretty sure I hate most of my clients more than a trick hates a john. I go numb everyday I'm there, and try to spend my time thinking of other things, much like your movie whore has the far away look while she's getting ridden rough and hard.

Should my job be illegal?

My apologies.

Enidigm

04-03-2006, 07:18 PM

I think the big distinction missing here - unless i failed to catch it, which is possible since i haven't read the whole thread - is the difference between Sara Tonin's self realized prostitutes and Steve Canyon's desperate only-doing-it-out-of-poverty prostitutes. I think both perspectives are valid viewpoints.

There will be some women whom are educated, self aware, self sufficient financially and emotionally, whom would still like the thrill or freedom to be a prostitute. Such women will unlikely be endangered because they've the luxury of being choosy, of insisting upon extremely high rates (weeding out most of the riff-raff and entering the behind shadowy boundries of polite society), and of quitting whenever they get bored with the occupation. If her professor wasn't exactly rich and could've still enjoyed a few thousand extra every couple months, she was still perfectly fine (on her way to post-grad or the phd or tenure or whatever) without it.

There will also be some women, not self conscious, probably very young, with little or no familial or social support networks, that will turn to prostitution out of desperation and as a last resort. And these women, living this lifestyle out of need, will be forced to put themselves in danger, take whatever they can get, from as many men as they can get, with only as much scruple and selectivity as they can afford. Which puts them at a much higher risk of falling prey to all the dangers that Steve Canyon has seen first hand.