PC Games: Download vs. Retail & Piracy

[Brad Wardell]

I don't know if any of you guys saw this but we did an interview with GameDaily recently that showed up today:

http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/interview/?id=11666&rp=1

A lot of the article is spent talking about PC games at retail vs. digital downloads. My view is that retail is still king and is going to be king for a very long time and that indies who are making substantial (read: expensive to make) games will still have to make sure they're available there.

It also goes on and talks about software piracy. My view is that DRM and other copy protection schemes hinder more than they help on many types of PC games (though I do believe in product activation which could be considered a form of DRM but even there, it depends on the product). The retail version of GalCiv II, for instance, won't have any copy protection at all on it. The thrust of that part of the interview is piracy rates vs. lost sales due to that piracy.

I was curious to hear what you guys think on these things. Being a game developer, it's easy to get insulated from what game buyers (or reviewers) see PC games going.

[Damien Neil]

Retail vs. download: This is a big, fat "it depends" for me. Best of all is if I can buy something for $20, download it in a couple minutes, and start playing right away. Instant gratification wins. If it's a giant, multi-DVD extravaganza that's going to take days to download, then retail wins. No surprise there.

For more expensive, less disposable games, I start drifting more towards retail, since I like having that CD to reinstall from. Unless you're do a Steam-style download-as-often-as-you-like, which is great, since I just know I'm going to lose the CD.

Worst of all is buying a CD online. I've got to wait for shipping and stuff, and by the time it gets here the moment will have passed and I won't be interested any more.

DRM, I hate. In particular, the instant you stop me from doing something that I think I should be able to do, I hate your guts and want your company to die in a flaming pile of wreckage. Require the CD in the drive? I hate you. Can't install on more than one machine? I hate you. Need to go online and activate the CD I just bought? I'm sitting here trying to summon ninjas to kill your dog by the sheer power of my hate.

(That's a generic "you"; I don't hate you, Brad.)

DRM that I don't notice, I hate less. I don't hate Steam all that much, because I bought HL2 through it and it'll let me download it again when I upgrade my machine. That's rather nifty. Oh, and I entered my ancient HL1 CD key and it immediately let me download and play HL1. That was downright kick-ass. I'd probably hate the hell out if it if I'd bought HL2 in a store and had to wait forever for Steam to activate it, though.

Similarly, I didn't really hate Apple's FairPlay at all, until a coworker started listing to my shared music collection and couldn't access the protected files. Now I hate it. And yet I still buy from iTMS, because I accidentally bought a copy-protected CD once. That was the last CD I ever bought. I'm not boycotting CDs, I'm just not willing to deal with the uncertainty of wondering if any given CD I buy will be completely worthless or not.

Oh, and one last thing: I haven't pirated a game since grade school. This is a major part of why DRM and copy protection completely piss me off. I'm completely sick of being treated like a pirate, when the *real* pirates are mildly inconvenienced by all this crap at best.

[Sarkus]

Having recently left employment at GameStop, I am convinced that digital delivery will become very significant very fast. On the PC side the retail footprint is shrinking fast in places like GameStop and seems to vary widely at larger retailers. Generally, though, it seems like there are fewer PC games at all retailers now. I see that trend accelerating based on recent news that PC is now just 10% of the market, at least as far as retail dollars go.

Of course, significant is a relative term. The hard core gamer, such as the type that will buy GalCiv2, will embrace digital delivery very quickly. You will need retail to try and attract more casual gamers, but I could see as much as 40-50% of PC game revenue for most games coming from the digital side in the next two to three years.

[jpinard]

In a perfect world, I'd like a digital download and be able to order a paper manual separately. The manual is the only thing I like about retail. I don't like printing out a bajillion pages on my printer.... or 20 pages with microscopic print... and if a game has even moderate complexity - a real live manual is still worth it's weight in gold... errr copper.

Good article by the way. One lesson people should learn is from the idiots at Frontier/Atari and whatever copy protection scheme they're using on RCT3 Wild! And people thought star-force was bad!? http://www.ataricommunity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=511129 They're trying fix #3 to correct the copy protection issues that slow games to a crawl. First it broke day- >night cycles... they "kinda" fixed that just to substitute it with general lag. It appears people have the issue cleared right up by usign a no-CD crack. Yea, it's stupid to sabatage your anti-piracy efforts... by sending people off to find no-CD cracks because you can't fix your own problems with cruddy 3rd party copy protection.

[Donald L.]

In a perfect world, I'd like a digital download and be able to order a paper manual separately. The manual is the only thing I like about retail. I don't like printing out a bajillion pages on my printer.... or 20 pages with microscopic print... and if a game has even moderate complexity - a real live manual is still worth it's weight in gold... errr copper.

I agree, a good paper manual is worth a lot to me. Perhaps a serial number so gamers can register the game and are able to download mods, bonus missions or anything else that adds value.

[Gendal]

The manuals are already going the way of the dodo bird, with the ubiquitous strategy guide always foisted on you at checkout.

I like downloading games, but I like having a DVD case with it in there even more. Ideally I want a cheaper digital download with the option to pay full retail + shipping and get a copy sent to me later. It can be weeks later for all I care. That way I have a display copy + backup, and instant gratification.

[Xaroc]

The manuals are already going the way of the dodo bird, with the ubiquitous strategy guide always foisted on you at checkout.

I like downloading games, but I like having a DVD case with it in there even more. Ideally I want a cheaper digital download with the option to pay full retail + shipping and get a copy sent to me later. It can be weeks later for all I care. That way I have a display copy + backup, and instant gratification.

I tend to agree with this. I mean I like Steam and it has worked well for me but depending on the type of game having the option to get a physical copy and a manual is a nice. I have the same kind of I want to play it now issue with ordering things online. For things like cables, for example, it isn't an issue but for games I want it now. I wanted to play Gothic 2 Gold the other day but I knew I would have to wait 2 or 3 days to play and it annoyed me enough not to buy it. If I could have bought the physical copy then downloaded it right after that I would have pulled the trigger.

-- Xaroc

[Ben Sones]

I agree with that as well. I like the instant gratification of digital downloads, but I also like to have a backup hard copy. Getting a game digitally and then having a disc sent later is appealing. I'm fine with digital downloads that let me burn my own disc, too. No digital download and having to wait for a disc to come in the mail before I can play is the worst of all worlds. I almost never do that, unless it's the only way to get a game. But even then, I don't like it.

[Mark Asher]

Things I'd like to see with digital distribution:

1) Price concession since the publisher is eliminatiing physical goods
2) Option to order paper manual and backup discs for extra $$
3) One-time only online validation check. Check me once, you're done.

For me, driving five minutes to a nearby retail store is still probably more convenient. I can't really count on doing a multi-gig download unless I queue it up overnight -- too many people in my household use the computers during waking hours. I can't queue it up in the afternoon or early evening and count on it occurring without interruption.

[DeepT]

As a broke colledge student I pirated nearly everything. If I had not pirated games (and many other things), I would not have played them, aka I would not have bought them either. In that sense, piracy did not hurt sales because there never was any chance of a sale from me.

Once I got a real job and could afford to eat more then hotdogs, mac & cheese, and ramin noodles, I paid for every game I got. However, the more games I paid for, the harder it is for me to buy the next one.

You see, when I was pirating games, if I downloaded some game that sucked, so what? Id just delete it. Now if I go purchase a game that sucks, I am out 50 bucks. I can't take it back because it sucks. So now I play fewer games because of my unwillingness to take a chance on spending 50 bucks on a crappy game. Sure the box art and previews seem tempting, but it is not really good enough to get me to try it.

AOE III is a prefect example of this. The demo didn't grab me very strongly. It *might* be fun to play, then again it *might not*. Do I want to gamble with 50 bucks and play 3 or 4 games and get sick of it? I chose no. I am sure there is some price point Id see that it was worth it.


With reguards to online purchasing with digital downloads, id be a lot more confortable if there was an online personal library that was going to stay around forever. IE: I buy a game now, and in 4 years with a new computer I may just decied Id like to play it. Will I still be able to download it again? I am fine having only a digital version of the game and manual, as long as I can retain a copy of it indenfintly online for retrevial at any place in time.

I also think a very good software protection scheme could be worked out for digital distribution. You could have a validation client, that sents checksums for all your binaries every time you log on to the internet. If they do not match, it redownloads the bad binary. Then each game, whenver used online validates the validation client and repairs it if it has been altered. Basically you could but in 3 or 4 cross checking systems to make sure everything is on par. While this still can be defeated, it would make life for the average pirate very difficult.

As for a unproteced version of Gal Civ II, I think that is a mistake Brad. I think you will lose a lot to piracy. Id try and think of something at least to hinder piracy. You do not just want me to get the zip or .exe you send to me and then just burn a cd and start handing out copies to my friends like holloween candy.

Id suggest letting people downloading an installer for your game that downloads the game from the net. Then the installer gets some info about someone's box, like thier MAC address, cpu, bios, window version, etc and then your server 'stamps' the your executable with this info. Your executable will only run on a machine matching those criteria. If someone needs a new copy, they can log in and download it. You could then limit downloads to 1 per month, so they could not just give thier friends the info to install it themselves.

[Igor Muravyev]

As for a unproteced version of Gal Civ II, I think that is a mistake Brad. I think you will lose a lot to piracy. Id try and think of something at least to hinder piracy. You do not just want me to get the zip or .exe you send to me and then just burn a cd and start handing out copies to my friends like holloween candy.

A software pirate will be able to do this anyways. They aren't hindered by copy protection, they are only delayed by it. By giving out copies of GalCiv2 to your friends, you're doing a good thing, because they might like it and they might buy it. If they don't, they probably weren't going to buy it anyways.


Id suggest letting people downloading an installer for your game that downloads the game from the net. Then the installer gets some info about someone's box, like thier MAC address, cpu, bios, window version, etc and then your server 'stamps' the your executable with this info. Your executable will only run on a machine matching those criteria. If someone needs a new copy, they can log in and download it. You could then limit downloads to 1 per month, so they could not just give thier friends the info to install it themselves.
This is the part that I really don't understand. Any CS student out of assembly can take the EXE, deassemble it, change the MAC address around, or make a keygen to change it.. or better yet remove the MAC address checking portion of the EXE. What now? Whoops, the developers spent weeks implementing DRM and it got cracked within a day.

I wish more developers would be like you Brad. DRM doesn't stop pirates. It only makes pirates out of the rest of us.

[Nellie]

I like Steam, it removes the inevitability that in 6 months time when I feel the urge to have another go at HL2 that I'll find I've lost the CD or it's cracked or whatever. Like I had with RRT2 the other day, I had the install disks but not the play disk.

When it isn't a huge download I've no objection to buying online and downloading. Special Forces was, in some respects, a prime example of everything that is both good and bad out Downloading. The good is that I had the game bought, downloaded and installed while I was doing something else, the lack of a manual in this case not being an issue. The bad is that it actually cost me more to forgo a case, disk and printed manual by buying direct from EA. I could have saved £5 by going down to the shops or odering from Amazon instead.

As for piracy, The only "pirated" games on my system at the moment are those that we use on LAN parties and I hope you'll forgive my unwillingness to spend £30 on a game that I'll only play for an hour or so every six months. Novalogic seems to be a rare exception nowadays in that their games have pretty much always worked via a LAN without needing a disk, 1000 digit CD key and a retina scan to load up.

[TheWombat]

Even in the backwoods it's not that hard to find AAA titles at retail, but it gets much harder to find less hyped games from smaller publishers, particularly in a timely fashion. I rather like digitial delivery for niche titles, MMO add-ons, and anything that really won't be readily and speedily available at a retail outlet. I guess I'd rather have a physical copy all else being equal, especially if there's a manual of any consequence involved, but mostly I'm pretty ok with downloading as a primary delivery medium.*

*As long as I have broadband of course.

[Derek French]

There are some key points in this. Damien nailed it with the "DRM I don't notice" comment. CD Keys in multiplayer. We have been doing this since Quake 3 (maybe earlier) and its never got in my face. The one thing I noticed there was that all my warez monkey friends that pirated every game, actually went out and bought Q3 - simply because it was easier to do that then the piracy route when playing random games on the internet.

Speaking as a gamer at home, I have never really believed the "piracy = lost revenue" argument. There is a guy that I know who pirates everything (and blames it on various things, which always cracks me up). I highly doubt that he would every purchase anything, so there never was any revenue coming from him to any company. If some DRM blocked him, he isn't going out to the store to buy it.

Disk checks I am in the middle about. I crack all my games and put the discs away for safe keeping. Have I stolen anything by doing this? I don't think so. Have I violated the EULA or done something illegal? Probably, but I don't really care. I bought the game and I am not sharing it with anyone else.

The Download Vs. Retail thing has come up many times before. My thing is that they are neither mutually exclusive nor is one better than the other. It really comes down to situation. Have fast internet vs. a 1 hour drive one way to the store? Download is probably your friend. Live beside a software store? Retail is probably faster for you. Sometimes its faster for me to download something overnight. To me, its all about the options.

[Moore]

I hate driving to the store, and the steam model is ok for me as a solution.

Buying outright online I also like (this is how I bought COV) but I hate the heavy drm'd ones (direct2drive and their custom patches etc... I want the same game as the retail box)

I dont mind activation.

The best though, IMO, is gamefly. They have a list of games I want to play, they send them to me, I play them, if they are great, I go to gamefly.com and click 'keep it', get charged half price-ish, they send me my manual and box and the next rental. It's awesome and I wish it could work for pc games, it really screens the turds out and gets you past the honeymoon stage before you buy so you KNOW the game is REALLY good and worth making a permanent addition to your library.

[fuzzyslug]

I'm down with digital delivery, provided I can use it how I want, much like what Stardock provides. I don't really need a CD if I'm allowed to easily back it up myself. I only need a manual in select circumstances.

If I can't do what I want with it, I'd like a price concession (Mark's point) or a lot of convience (Steam does provide this). Most of the time, you get neither and that a bummer. The DRM that you face severely limits your choices and severely limits my desire to download the software.

The biggest problem that I have with the lack of a physical copy of a game is that it makes it difficult or impossible to trade my games with a friend. The retailers probably think this is a good thing. I'm not so sure. There are plenty of games that I didn't have the money or time to play that I borrowed from a friend. Remove this exposure and I'm not so sure that those sequels will continue to sell so well.

Brad, I agree with your main point: piracy is overrated, particularly when you are considering lost sales. I wish there was a realistic way to study the actual numbers.

[BobJustBob]

Back when Totalgaming.net moved to Phase 2 (eliminating the "monthly" game releases and associated subscription and adding the points-based system), I was critical of the change. Previous subscribers such as myself were handled well, but the new system didn't seem to do anything special -- it was just a place to buy indie games that were usually available elsewhere, only you got them for a slightly reduced rate.

Well now that I've got my Tablet PC and am wanting to populate it with games, Totalgaming looks much better. Having everything centralized and DRM-free is a huge plus. I can just put Stardock Central on the machine and redownload all the games I already bought. Plus when buying new games, I don't have to worry about activation emails or unlock keys or any of that crap. The selection of games on the service still isn't where I think it should be, but otherwise it's a great system.

Oh man, if Popcap or Reflexive did this (or, even better, if Stardock got the rights to put their catalogs on Totalgaming), they would clean up.

[Ben Sones]

Yeah, of all the digital download systems I've seen, I like Stardock's the best. It's simple, straightforward, and relatively consumer-friendly. They do need more games, but as more developers look into the digital distribution route, maybe they can land some choice distribution deals.

[Gordon Cameron]

In a perfect world, I'd like a digital download and be able to order a paper manual separately. The manual is the only thing I like about retail. I don't like printing out a bajillion pages on my printer.... or 20 pages with microscopic print... and if a game has even moderate complexity - a real live manual is still worth it's weight in gold... errr copper.

Good article by the way. One lesson people should learn is from the idiots at Frontier/Atari and whatever copy protection scheme they're using on RCT3 Wild! And people thought star-force was bad!? http://www.ataricommunity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=511129 They're trying fix #3 to correct the copy protection issues that slow games to a crawl. First it broke day- >night cycles... they "kinda" fixed that just to substitute it with general lag. It appears people have the issue cleared right up by usign a no-CD crack. Yea, it's stupid to sabatage your anti-piracy efforts... by sending people off to find no-CD cracks because you can't fix your own problems with cruddy 3rd party copy protection.

How long until it's possible to buy an inexpensive "digital paper" flat screen/portable display thingy, hook it up via USB to your computer, and display pdf files on it so you can read them wherever?

How hard can it be? (He asked, having no idea how hard it could be.)

[mouselock]

How long until it's possible to buy an inexpensive "digital paper" flat screen/portable display thingy, hook it up via USB to your computer, and display pdf files on it so you can read them wherever?

How hard can it be? (He asked, having no idea how hard it could be.)

It'll still be quite a while. I believe sony has released or previewed an e-paper device, but the resolution is horrible. Basically they form "pixels" with tiny magnetizable balls that are half white/half black. So you've got two strikes against you for crappy display right there: a) While the magnetizable balls my be tiny to the eye, they're huge compared to a 1200dpi print size and b) Monochrome.

Full color would take some type of OLED production that actually worked (and a powered frame) or more tech than I'm currently aware of at freezing in liquid crystals with external fields. AFAIK it still requires active power to get the LCD type of response you see on monitors and TVs (as well as a silicon backplane which is a bit fragile).

Printers are still it for quite a while to come.

[Lee Johnson]

How long until it's possible to buy an inexpensive "digital paper" flat screen/portable display thingy, hook it up via USB to your computer, and display pdf files on it so you can read them wherever?
This Spring (http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start?&ProductSKU=PRS500). Well... except for the 'inexpensive' part. :(

[ElGuapo]

Where do you find metrics on how many copies of a game have been pirated, or the PC gaming industry in general? How is it possible to know how much impact it has on sales?

Related question: What are the figures like for console games? I've never seen a pirated version of a console game. Is the copy protection that mac?

[Moore]

mac? ? Console games are pirated all the time, thats why its in the news when people go to jail for it. Probably worst on xbox due to the HD and the no mod chip needed thing.

[Hetzer]

I like the retail version....

I love to go in a shop where i can see the games and buy them immediatly. I dont like digital downloads as i have to send money first, then wait until it is received and then start to download it (and no, i will not give out a credit card number).

The second thing i like is a real handbook because i mainly play rpg and strategic games. For both kind of games a good handbook is a must (at least in my opinion). A game that dont need a handbook is, more often then not, not a good game.

I like the idea with no copy protection. Gal civ 1 was a very good example for a good game that never botherd with copy prot. I dont know the details in sales but for myself i got an english version of the game here in germany.


So brad if the figures of gal civ 1 were good enough than keep up with no copy prot.

[DeepT]

This is the part that I really don't understand. Any CS student out of assembly can take the EXE, deassemble it, change the MAC address around, or make a keygen to change it.. or better yet remove the MAC address checking portion of the EXE. What now? Whoops, the developers spent weeks implementing DRM and it got cracked within a day.


Observation 1: Most computer scinece student's are lazy. This is from personal experience at UCF with the vast majority of CS Students.

Observation 2: Most people who play games are NOT computer science students.

Assertion 1: Cracking a program like that, while quite doable, is a pain in the ass, and requires lots of work.

Conclusion 1: Most computer science will not crack a game.
Conclusion 2: The vast majority of gamers will not have the tenacity or ability to crack games.

Assertion 2: There is will be a big difference in the amount a game is pirated which is directly related to the difficulty to produce working copies. IE: If You can just email a friend a zip file and they can play it vs having to jump through a lot of hoops to pirate it, the amount of piracy will go way down.

You should not look at it as some 100% unstoppable copy protection scheme. Such a thing does not, and will never exist. However, stopping 99% of 'casual' pirates (ie the people who will download cracks, but not create them) isn't a bad thing.

[Chris Woods]

A software pirate will be able to do this anyways. They aren't hindered by copy protection, they are only delayed by it. By giving out copies of GalCiv2 to your friends, you're doing a good thing, because they might like it and they might buy it. If they don't, they probably weren't going to buy it anyways.


I think delaying piracy is the primary reason copy protection is employed. As mentioned many times in this thread, instant gratification is a powerful force in the market. If I can afford to buy something today but would have to wait a week to get it for free I'm far more likely to buy it today then if I could get it for free today.

Chris Woods

[Alan Au]

Whenever I buy a game, the first two things I do are look for a patch, and then for a noCD crack. Now that I think about it, it's kind of depressing.

- Alan

[shang]

I used to look for the no-cd first before buying games. And if I ever had to choose between no-cd and an official patch for some some reason (i.e. latest no-cd not compatible with the lastest patch), I'd skip the official patch. Fortunately, almost all cd-based protections in use today can be fooled with some combination of Alcohol/BlindWrite/CloneCD, so the haslle with no-cd patches is mostly unneeded. I've heard good things about Game Jackal too.

[Derek French]

Where do you find metrics on how many copies of a game have been pirated, or the PC gaming industry in general? How is it possible to know how much impact it has on sales?
This is my thing with this issue. I doubt that any numbers on this subject could be anything more than SWAG. There seems to be a number of groups in this.

1 - people who don't pirate anything
2 - people who pirate stuff they want that is one-click simple
3 - people who pirate stuff they want and will go to the ends of the earth
4 - people who pirate stuff because it exists that is one-click simple
5 - people who pirate stuff because it exists and will go to the ends of the earth
6 - people who pirate stuff to distribute for free
7 - people who pirate stuff to distribute for profit

Reasonable protection will help Group 2 with their "ethics" and they will purchase the game.

No amount of protection will stop Groups 3 through 7. They have infinite time and infinite resources and many view any copy protection as a challenge to overcome.

Revenue lost to piracy? I could be wrong, but only Group 7 are the ones that you can expect to physically tract down and charge with a crime that directly affects your revenue.

[Derek French]

Whenever I buy a game, the first two things I do are look for a patch, and then for a noCD crack. Now that I think about it, it's kind of depressing.
But why? You still bought the game, right? You have no plans to distribute the game? Or is it the fact that you have to consider a patch and the noCD in your purchase plans?

[Alan Au]

But why? You still bought the game, right? You have no plans to distribute the game? Or is it the fact that you have to consider a patch and the noCD in your purchase plans?
Mostly it's that latter bit, where I have to factor in patching and cracking as part of the installation process. Sometimes I'll download patches and cracks prior to purchase, just to shorten the install-to-play time later.

Being forced to keep the CD in the drive isn't always a deal-breaker, but my CD drive is slow to spin up and doesn't always recognize discs anymore, so it really is a nuisance. Patches aren't always a problem either, except that they're sometimes tricky to locate/download, and they have a nasty tendency to break savegames.

- Alan

[Kryten]

Whenever I buy a game, the first two things I do are look for a patch, and then for a noCD crack. Now that I think about it, it's kind of depressing.

- Alan

I've given up on no-cd cracks, they can be a pain when it comes to patching. I normally just create an iso and mount using daemon tools prior to installing, and from there it's gravy.

My personal preference would be for one time activation based based on a CD or registration key (emailed, like a lot of Flight Simulator addons seem to be able to cope with). While I personally haven't had any issues with Starforce, there have been times when I've not bother playing something like SH3 or Trackmania because I was too lazy to find the disc, and that's going to cloud my "meh factor" meter when it comes to buying expansions.

[DennyA]

Xbox (360) Live Arcade makes me a believer in digital delivery.

The ability to try demos, then go and buy the real game, freakin' rocks.

Make the experience as brainlessly easy on the PC, and with a similar demo/final model, and I think you'd have a winner.

Though you also have to find a way to get the front-end onto peoples' PCs to convince them... (I was "meh" towards XBL Arcade until I actually tried it.) It'd make a great feature for operating systems, if it could be done in such as way as to include retailers/distributers in the transaction.

[Brad Wardell]

I agree, a good paper manual is worth a lot to me. Perhaps a serial number so gamers can register the game and are able to download mods, bonus missions or anything else that adds value.

It's kind of interesting you'd say that. There was just a debate the other day over whether paper manuals had any place at all these days (i.e. that all the info in the manual should be integrated as part of the game).

I tend to feel the same way, I shouldn't admit this but I would take the Civ 4 manual to bed for late night reading.

[Brad Wardell]

Things I'd like to see with digital distribution:

1) Price concession since the publisher is eliminatiing physical goods
2) Option to order paper manual and backup discs for extra $$
3) One-time only online validation check. Check me once, you're done.

For me, driving five minutes to a nearby retail store is still probably more convenient. I can't really count on doing a multi-gig download unless I queue it up overnight -- too many people in my household use the computers during waking hours. I can't queue it up in the afternoon or early evening and count on it occurring without interruption.

Item #1 is hard to do because right now, retailers are in charge and they know it. If we tried, for instance to make GalCiv II (http://www.galciv2.com) cost less to download, the retailers would drop us like that and 75% of our sales will probably come from retail.

[PeterK]

It's kind of interesting you'd say that. There was just a debate the other day over whether paper manuals had any place at all these days (i.e. that all the info in the manual should be integrated as part of the game).

I tend to feel the same way, I shouldn't admit this but I would take the Civ 4 manual to bed for late night reading.

My usual routine when I buy a new game is to start playing it that night without reading the manual, then bring the manual to bed with me. It often helps to have seen the game a little bit first. Plus I enjoy reading them.

[Brad Wardell]

With reguards to online purchasing with digital downloads, id be a lot more confortable if there was an online personal library that was going to stay around forever. IE: I buy a game now, and in 4 years with a new computer I may just decied Id like to play it. Will I still be able to download it again? I am fine having only a digital version of the game and manual, as long as I can retain a copy of it indenfintly online for retrevial at any place in time.


This is what TotalGaming.net (http://www.totalgaming.net) does. Once you create your account, it "knows" what you've purchased and you can grab the full game, even years later.


I also think a very good software protection scheme could be worked out for digital distribution. You could have a validation client, that sents checksums for all your binaries every time you log on to the internet. If they do not match, it redownloads the bad binary. Then each game, whenver used online validates the validation client and repairs it if it has been altered. Basically you could but in 3 or 4 cross checking systems to make sure everything is on par. While this still can be defeated, it would make life for the average pirate very difficult.


Here's my concern about that -- game companies go away all the time. And even the ones that don't go away, support tends to fade pretty rapidly. We're guilty of that too (I wonder if the Stellar Frontier master server is up today?).

I don't like the idea that if a game company went away or just stopped supporting my game that I'm out of luck.

I'm okay with activation mind you. That when you install it that it requires activation IF you installed it via the Internet. But I want the option to be able to get that CD - with no copy protection or any other nonsense - that I can tuck away in the even that game company XYZ goes away.

One story that hasn't been written yet is that one of the scary things about these monster copy protection systems is that they are almost certainly bound to get broken to varying degrees by future versions of Windows. We've got the Windows Vista beta here and it's tightening the hatches on what third party processes can do on teh system. It would really make me mad as a gamer if my game stopped working because of the copy protection!


As for a unproteced version of Gal Civ II, I think that is a mistake Brad. I think you will lose a lot to piracy. Id try and think of something at least to hinder piracy. You do not just want me to get the zip or .exe you send to me and then just burn a cd and start handing out copies to my friends like holloween candy.

Id suggest letting people downloading an installer for your game that downloads the game from the net. Then the installer gets some info about someone's box, like thier MAC address, cpu, bios, window version, etc and then your server 'stamps' the your executable with this info. Your executable will only run on a machine matching those criteria. If someone needs a new copy, they can log in and download it. You could then limit downloads to 1 per month, so they could not just give thier friends the info to install it themselves.

The system worked pretty well for GalCiv I. The question for us isn't piracy on its own but how many sales we lost due to it.

There's not a lot of good data on the subject. I only know anedotally and personally that it's all about demographics. If I were making a first person shooter, I'd put quite a bit of copy protection on it. If I were making a sports game I would too.

But on strategy games, the demographic is different, particularly on a TBS. I don't think the typical "l33t" sites are itching to get their hands on Galaxy Civ Empires or whatever the heck Star Duck is calling it.

The way we try to stop piracy is through the updates -- to get updates, you have to have a valid serial and there's nothing to crack -- it's all server based. But our system is predicated on doing regular after release updates but it has worked out pretty well.

[John Sansker]

Item #1 is hard to do because right now, retailers are in charge and they know it. If we tried, for instance to make GalCiv II (http://www.galciv2.com) cost less to download, the retailers would drop us like that and 75% of our sales will probably come from retail.

See, if this is the case, then there is no reason to go with the download.
I've started avoiding the retail route for buying games now.
Unless I find some kind of bizzare ass deal in a retail store(got Earth 2160 for $29.99 where it was $49.99 online) I think most if not all of my business is going to gogamer or amazon.

I was a bit surprised that Valve didn't offer any kind of price break on HL2 if you did the download route. Though I guess it makes sense if say one of the big box stores threatened not to carry the title at all if they(Valve) were selling it for less via download.

[Sarkus]

I was a bit surprised that Valve didn't offer any kind of price break on HL2 if you did the download route. Though I guess it makes sense if say one of the big box stores threatened not to carry the title at all if they(Valve) were selling it for less via download.

They did though. There were three versions of HL2 available to download and they were priced so that the retail versions were in the same range. Then they differentiated each version. That way the retail offers were different than the download options. It was kind of tricky that way but it's also the kind of thing only major publishers can get away with. Would retailers have dropped EA if the download version of the Battlefield 2 expansion had been cheaper than retail? I doubt it. Smaller publishers have much less leverage, however.

[jpinard]

The manuals are already going the way of the dodo bird, with the ubiquitous strategy guide always foisted on you at checkout.

I like downloading games, but I like having a DVD case with it in there even more. Ideally I want a cheaper digital download with the option to pay full retail + shipping and get a copy sent to me later. It can be weeks later for all I care. That way I have a display copy + backup, and instant gratification.

I like your idea a lot! I too like having a disc and case... though not for small games.

Brad - no reason to feel weird about that. I take game manuals to bed at night too. It's a good way for me to fall asleep after reading awhile and have fewer nightmares.

[Hanzii]

It's kind of interesting you'd say that. There was just a debate the other day over whether paper manuals had any place at all these days (i.e. that all the info in the manual should be integrated as part of the game).

I tend to feel the same way, I shouldn't admit this but I would take the Civ 4 manual to bed for late night reading.

See, this is why I was clamoring for them to fix the civilopedia - the only thing I read in the paper manual was Sorens excellent essay, and considering the small print size, I'd rather read that online as well. I have no use for manuals - but like the maps, that go with some games like GTA.

But when that is said, I'd only pick digital download if I had the oportunity to burn a cd I could later reinstall from or if I'd save money (or if the game wasn't avaliable in retail). EAs offer of Special Forces was good because it was actually cheaper, since they offered the rest of the world US prices.
But since I got a review copy, I never examined EAs rules about re-download etc.. They probably didn't offer the ability to burn a copy...

[Jack Black]

Brad - no reason to feel weird about that. I take game manuals to bed at night too. It's a good way for me to fall asleep after reading awhile and have fewer nightmares.

Yeah. A glass of warm milk and a manual of Master of Magic will keep the bad men away.

[CustodianV131]

Brad - no reason to feel weird about that. I take game manuals to bed at night too. It's a good way for me to fall asleep after reading awhile and have fewer nightmares.

Yeah. A glass of warm milk and a manual of Master of Magic will keep the bad men away.

You lunatics! Err... well, I do the same thing actually. (MoM had a great set of manuals for sure! Still treasure them! :D ) A manual is more for me then just looking things up when playing the game. I think most of my time spend with manuals say 95% is reading it when I can't play the game :).

While I do agree that manuals are going to way of the dodo (although I don't eat the manuals, just to be clear on that) , I do think that with the current move to customer printing options, you'll see that the PDF manual becomes more attractive to people, because they can simply print it full color if they wish to do so. Its a bit off still, to pricey atm, but closing on us fast!

I've the luxury of an industrial quality printer to print my manuals on, its great with all the manual on disc games these days. Its a better solution to me then the rubbish that they put in the DVD cases these days. Still I do love games like Civ4 that still come out with a decent manual! Great work!

[Talorc]

On the whole manual thing - I dont mind getting a PDF version of a manual, as I work for a company that has some industrial strength laser printers so printing is easy. (We print phone / utility etc bills and mail them)

What REALLY annoys me though is that even though the manual is only ever intended to be downloaded and printed on "consumer" devices, the manuals are usually still set up for offset press printing - with the wierd page facings required for this. (A commerical print technology, radically different than laser)

So when you print on your laser printer (industrial or consumer version) all the page facings are stuffed up, and you cant bind it nicely without a lot of mucking around in Adobe before printing!

[DeepT]

If a company goes away, or is going away, they can be required to release a final non copy protection version of thier game. Or better yet, when the publisher (the company that runs the digital distribution stream) always requires two copies of the game from the developer. One with protection, one without.

If a developer ever goes away, they just swap out the protected version with the unprotected version.

If I was a game developer, I just would not fee comfortable with my game out there with zero protection. How many of you out there have registerd and paid for your copy of winzip? Or mIRC?

I once talked to the guy who made the game Super Galaga Delux, it was an amiga game. He ported it to the PC was "War Bird". It was a lot of fun. He told me, by his estimate, maybe 1 out of 100 people who played the game actually paid for it.

[shang]

Regarding the pricing. I undestand that retailers don't want the digital distribution to undercut them. I wouldn't have ANY problems if the digital download would cost me the same amount as buying from retail, but in the real world, the digital download always ends up being much more expensive, because retailers run deals (even for new games). For example, Civ 4: I bought it for 25€ within a week of its european release. If there would've been a digital download option, I'm certain it would have been 49,90€. If retailers were okay with digital distributors price matching retailer deals, that would be awesome.

[Timemaster Tim]

Still I do love games like Civ4 that still come out with a decent manual! Great work!

Civ4 came with a manual? My copy didn't.

[mok]

A lot of the article is spent talking about PC games at retail vs. digital downloads. My view is that retail is still king and is going to be king for a very long time and that indies who are making substantial (read: expensive to make) games will still have to make sure they're available there.


Retail is more effective because it is a method of Marketing not available to the digital download only folks. Sure there shareware/demo sites, but these sites have 1000's if not 100,000's of items listed, and so much wheat v chaff there as well, where as the store has relatively so few on display - the buyer with the hole burning in his pocket has less options. Also, brick and mortar just reaches more people either unwillng or incapable of going online.

I don't believe digital download techniques have conquered the marketing problem yet. I believe the pieces are in place for it to happen, but it has not happened yet.

[Chris Nahr]

Civ4 came with a manual? My copy didn't.

If you're serious that must be because Communist Canada confiscated your manual for the people, or something. My British version certainly came with a big fat manual.

[Timemaster Tim]

If you're serious that must be because Communist Canada confiscated your manual for the people, or something. My British version certainly came with a big fat manual.

Or it could be a Costco special edition. My wife bought it as my Xmas present from Costco. Anyhow, I'm one of those people who wade into the game without reading the manual, and generally never get around to actually reading it. I absorb my game knowledge through forums such as this.

[Mister Widget]

I don't take manuals to bed with me, but I do leave them in the bathroom and read them there :)

Several years ago, I would have said retail all the way, because I do love a good manual. But these days most games come with totally crappy manuals; one as good as Civ4's is very rare. As others have pointed out, it seems to be part of a shift towards 3rd party strategy guides, but those seem to be mostly full of spoilers and walkthroughs, not references tables and discussions of game mechanics.

If the era of good manuals is over -- and it seems to be -- then I'd much rather have digital download.

[jfletch]

I bought the collectors edition of Half-Life 2 for $29.99 in June. It was full price on Steam at the time, $49.99 for Bronze. The collectors edition is kind of crap, but at least I got a box to put on my shelf (next to Ultima 9 Dragon Edition and Diablo 2 CE).

I just like having the box on my shelf and an actual physical CD and I dont think thats gonna change anytime soon. Digital downloads dont do it for me (although I would buy a map pack or something).

[Rock8man]

I have to admit that Half Life 2 went a long way in convincing me that digital downloads might be a better way to go than retail. I used to agree with nearly every point mentioned so far in favor of retail. I even bought HL2 through retail (a few months after the game came out, so even though it was still full price, I didn't have any of the problems people mentioned at launch).

The main reservation I always had about digital download schemes is that they often tie the download to a certain computer. Then when you change your hard drive, or your video card, or something else, that no longer works. I also reformat my drive quite regularly for one reason or another. So now that Steam ties together my login and my games, I'm pretty happy. I can even go on vacation, and while visiting family I can login to my Steam account and download Steam products there. It's a brilliant system.

Plus there's the fact that I don't have to worry about my old CDs going bad. I recently pulled out X-wing Alliance because I wanted to play the new Tie Fighter conversion, since I own both products. But my X-wing Alliance CD 1 has gone bad. It has a couple of scratches that don't allow the game to install properly. With Steam, and hopefully other download services in the future, I don't have to worry about storing media. Valve already stores the media for me and I have access to it at all times as long as I have internet access.

As for the manual, I used to love manuals. But as people have mentioned above, most manuals nowadays are not worth reading. Plus I honestly believe a good game shouldn't require you to open a manual in the first place. Everything in the game should either be intuitive from the beginning, or it should be explained in a tutorial.

For example, I remember when I first played Warcraft 2 in a CompUSA, I was thoroughly annoyed I couldn't even order a unit to move from one place to another. I was used to Dune 2's RTS interface, where to move was pretty intuitive, you clicked on the unit, then clicked "move" then clicked where you wanted it to move. Further down the line, the first time I played the Age of Empires demo, I was delighted to see that when I selected a villager, when my mouse was somewhere I could move, the screen at the bottom said "Right Click to move here", or "Right-Click to cut wood" when I had it pointed at a tree, etc. So even though I'd never played a right-click interface RTS before, it was really easy to get into. (I later discovered that Warcraft 2 also had a right click interface, which is why I couldn't figure out how to move a peon).

Anything that can be put in a manual, including background story, can be put into the game. Although, I do admit, I love having more reading material for the bathroom.

[PeterK]

I bought Half-Life 2 about when it was first released. Steam wouldn't let me install the game on another computer. Has it changed since then?

[Alan Au]

So, uh, you guys have been following the whole Blackberry service fiasco, no? What happens when Valve, say, gets into patent trouble three years down the road?

- Alan

[Shadarr]

Civ4 came with a manual? My copy didn't.
Mine didn't either. I was under the impression that only the people who shelled out for the collector's edition got a paper manual.

[Efthimios G.]

Mine didn't either. I was under the impression that only the people who shelled out for the collector's edition got a paper manual.

I have a normal version (UK) that comes on a DVD and it has a hardcopy manual. In fact when I was holding the case I thought that because it was double the size of the other games (all games here come into DVD style cases), that the game was either 2 DVDs or they were using the same case for the CDs and DVD editions. I was surprised when I found out that half the size of the box was actualy a big manual.

[Timemaster Tim]

I have a normal version (UK) that comes on a DVD and it has a hardcopy manual.

I guess us people is the backwater colonies like Canada don't get such luxuries as manuals. :(

[Backov]

I'm interested to see what your results are with GalCiv2, Brad. (Shouldn't it be GalCiv 3?)..

I'll definitely be buying when you release it, and I know you're too busy to talk to people these days, but we need to talk about my game at some point, since you guys are a big indie publisher now, with clout at Walmart. :)

[CaseyRobinson]

I would be perfectly happy downloading my games instead of driving down to the shop to pick them up, provided the publishers give me the one concession that they are least willing to give.

I'm OK with paying (nearly) full price, because I know the real bulk of the expense is the development and not the packaging. Of course it wouldd nice if it was cheaper, but I'm not going to hold off on a purchase just because I don't get a nice box and manual. I throw the box away for all the PC games I buy anyway, and manuals worth having a printed copy of are pretty rare these days. (Yeah, that includes the CivIV manual, which was pretty worthless apart from the essay.)

What I'm not OK with is the DRM that will prevent me from reinstalling the game on some future computer after the company I made the purchase from has gone out of business. I want to be able to burn the installer to CD(s) and be able to load the game uupon an old computer without an internet connection. I know that I won't do that unless the game is really amazing, but I'm just not willing to concede that right.

I just realized that I'm totaly full of shit on the price thing, too. I only purchase a handful of games at full retail price per year. I'm pretty content to wait to pick things up on sale/used/bargin binned the majority of the time, so I don't think I would pay full retail for a download. But a download of a year old game at the same price as a used copy? I would prefer that to the used copy.

[Shadarr]

I guess us people is the backwater colonies like Canada don't get such luxuries as manuals. :(
I suspect it's more that the UK didn't get any "regular editions", because the SE was the one that came on a DVD with a paper manual here.

[Qenan]

I won't buy a digital download unless it's significantly cheaper than the CD/DVD version -- e.g., $20 instead of $30. Even there, I want a way to share it with friends, or to sell it... I can tolerate not having that, but it lowers the amount I will pay. So far, nothing on Steam has tempted me.

[Derek French]

I bought Half-Life 2 about when it was first released. Steam wouldn't let me install the game on another computer. Has it changed since then?
Wierd. I have HL2 installed on 2 computers (which are in two radically different locations) and I encountered no problems doing it.

[TheRock]

I had problems with steam downloading some patch for HL2 and then I couldn't play HL2 for some weird reason but It didn't do it for me anyhow so it wasn't a big deal and I ended up just playing CSS for awhile...but DD is a great way to go unless you want the manual. As for the online copy protection scheme or registration crap...hate it.

[Qmanol]

What I'm not OK with is the DRM that will prevent me from reinstalling the game on some future computer after the company I made the purchase from has gone out of business. I want to be able to burn the installer to CD(s) and be able to load the game uupon an old computer without an internet connection. I know that I won't do that unless the game is really amazing, but I'm just not willing to concede that right.

Yes. Either I am able to do this, or the game is so cheap that I consider it a throwaway purchase. I've often wondered if Stardock Central lets me do this - I can archive, but how does it behave if I have to reformat and install from those archives while offline?

[Jason Cross]

I always say: I have 1s and 0s piped into my home by the gigabit. Going to the store to buy a disc full of 1s and 0s is like going to a well to get water.

Digital distribution has a fair number of kinks to work out, but it's getting there. It's gaining acceptance and popularity (see: Gametap and Xbox Live Aracade in addition to Steam and such). There will be some influx point, some critical mass of broadband penetration, ease of use, and quality of games offered that makes digital distribution catch on REAL fast. People are getting used to the idea of paying for and downloading things that have some restrictions on them, thanks to iTunes and the like.

In theory, digital distribution is good. There are major costs associated with getting your game on shelves, and featured prominantly (way beyond just producing physical goods). It's quite possible for $50 retail games to cost $40 or less and have the developers and publishers pocket a LOT more money than they would off a retail sale. Already, the TV networks that put their shows on iTunes make about 2-3 times they money per $1.99 download than they get per viewer from advertising revenue (seriously! and that's after Apple's cut!).

Sin Episodes is a landmark of sorts. A major, AAA game with a good development budget (at least as much as a AAA retail game), that is ONLY available through digital distribution in episodic form. Will it be successful? Even if it sells a fraction of the number of copies that it would sell at retail, will Ritual make more money? It's a good litmus test, but it's only the beginning.

[Ben Sones]

I always say: I have 1s and 0s piped into my home by the gigabit. Going to the store to buy a disc full of 1s and 0s is like going to a well to get water.

I have water piped into my home, but I still buy bottled water at the store because it comes with a manual. Er, I mean it tastes better.

;)

[Mark Asher]

"Even if it sells a fraction of the number of copies that it would sell at retail, will Ritual make more money?"

It would be interesting to know what Valve's cut of the deal is. The middleman hasn't been eliminated, just replaced. I'm guessing Ritual will still make more per copy sold, but how much more?

Also, Sin 2 is looking to be a very expensive game. What are there? Four episodes? That's $80 for 16-24 hours of gameplay. I don't find that pricing particulary attractive.

[Jason McCullough]

I think delaying piracy is the primary reason copy protection is employed.

Ok, this is measurable, right?

* Can you name a game where the pirated version wasn't available on or before day 1 of the retail release?
* Can you provide evidence that delaying piracy is the reason companies put in copy protection?

I strongly suspect all anti-piracy controls are done because a finance guy somewhere in the process really doesn't understand the issue and just wants SOMETHING DONE TO STOP THEM. If anyone ever bothered to actually create some testable goals for anti-piracy measures I'm sure they would all fail, except for possibly cds for online games.

I always say: I have 1s and 0s piped into my home by the gigabit. Going to the store to buy a disc full of 1s and 0s is like going to a well to get water.

Sure, but in this case for lots of people it's faster to go to the well than wait for the slow-ass waterpipe to get a drink. We really need an order of magnitude more bandwidth at the average house before digital distribution of games is going anywhere. Which is a political topic, so I'll stop. :)

[Rolercam]

Limiting a game to download only at this time I think is a mistake. We don't have 100% penetration of broadband in America yet. Anyone who doesn’t have access to broadband, like me, will be left out in the cold and that developer will have lost a sale. With all the talk of rising costs of development I think it’s a bad business move to limit the game to download only. It gets even better. Some of the broadband salesmen I have talked to tell me there are people who choose to ignore it. After thinking about it more a minute it does make some sense. Why pay of the more expensive internet access when all you do is check email? Upgrading for a game doesn’t seem like a economically sound idea to me.

Another problem I have with it is online activation. If I really like the game it will end up in my collection. There have been several games that go back to the days of MS-Dos that still see play time just because I enjoy them. What happens to my game if I run out of allotted activations? Right now it looks like I may have to buy a new copy of Windows XP Pro because I have installed my copy too many times. I don’t like this but I need Windows to do my class work. I don’t need some dumb game. Why should I buy a new copy just to replay it a few years down the road? What happens if the activation service is shut down? A day will come when Steam is gone. How will you play Half-Life 2 then? There is no guarantee some else will cover it.

[Mark Asher]

"Why pay of the more expensive internet access when all you do is check email?"

There's a still a market for dialup. You can see that by all the commercials for dial-up service. Broadband is going to need to come down closer to dial-up pricing if they expect to replace dialup service. There's clearly a market for Internet access at a lower price than broadband. Heck, I had a few weeks during a switchover in providers where I was stuck with dialup and I was surprised at how usable it is. I could still play WoW on dialup.

There are a couple of other things about digital distribution that give me pause. One is that inevitably my hard drive will die. If I had a library of games on my hard drive, or even just the info I need to redownload them, I'm reasonably sure that I'd probably lose some games every time my drive died. I'm just not very organized about backups. I like it when I buy something for $40-50 I get master discs with my purchase. It may be convenient to download a game, but it's inconvenient to have to make my own backups.

The other thing is that the itunes model doesn't seem to give any discount for older products. A song released last week and a song released thirty years ago cost the same. Would we see discount pricing on games that get old if they were digitial downloads? There are no physical goods taking up inventory space in a store or warehouse, so what incentive is there to cut prices?

[John Sansker]

Ok, this is measurable, right?

* Can you name a game where the pirated version wasn't available on or before day 1 of the retail release?

Operation Flashpoint for the PC.
So there. :P

Seriously though, this is the ONLY game that I can think of in the last 5-10 years that wasn't hacked before retail release.
As I understand, it actually took quite a while before it was hacked.

[Chris Nahr]

Jason, what do you mean by pirated versions being available? It's quite possible that every game had huge disk images available on some bitorrent channel that require specific piracy tools to work, and that might or might not actually work, but how many people do you think are going to bother with that? Simple and reliable cracks have been all but eliminated by copy protection -- I haven't found cracks on GCW for the last several games I bought. Did you?

[Chris Woods]

Ok, this is measurable, right?

* Can you name a game where the pirated version wasn't available on or before day 1 of the retail release?


Yeah, Half-Life 2. I was in college at the time and HL2 was the only PC game people on my dorm floor bought because they couldn't get a cracked version and they wanted to play it right now.


* Can you provide evidence that delaying piracy is the reason companies put in copy protection?


I don't subscribe to the "everyone in the industry is stupid but everyone on message boards are smart" line of reasoning. The majority of AAA titles continue to employ copy-protection schemes and they know full well that these schemes won't stop pirates. One is disillusioned to submit that the entire industry is stupid but that we know the truth.

Chris Woods

[Backov]

This is the same games industry that still doesn't release games on DVD even though DVD burners are the same price as the game?

[Chris Woods]

This is the same games industry that still doesn't release games on DVD even though DVD burners are the same price as the game?

I think you overestimate the intelligence of the average consumer. When faced with a game coming on media his machine doesn't support, "Joe sixpack" (as the slashfucks like to call him) doesn't go out and find the price of a DVD burner; he just buys a game that does work.

Chris Woods

[Backov]

That wasn't my point, as I'm sure you know.

The point was the hardware is ubiquitous. You can't even cost-effectively get a cdr drive these days - you'd be better off to get a DVD-R.

Especially for new release games live Civ4, HL2, etc - that all require hardware new enough that it would likely have a DVD drive. So talk about overestimation - you're assuming that these idiots have a clue. Mostly, they don't. It's not the devs that decide these things after all - it's the dinosaurs in suits that run the pubs.

[John Sansker]

This is the same games industry that does release games on DVD, and then charges you $5 extra for the "convience" of a single disc install, and/or the collector's edition
(see also F.E.A.R.)

edited for clarity

[Kevin McGuire]

The other thing is that the itunes model doesn't seem to give any discount for older products. A song released last week and a song released thirty years ago cost the same. Would we see discount pricing on games that get old if they were digitial downloads? There are no physical goods taking up inventory space in a store or warehouse, so what incentive is there to cut prices?

If you look at Darwinia as an example, the $20 price to download via Steam is certainly cheaper than the $40 it was originally, and less than the gogamer price for the imported box (which is still $40, though I think it was cheaper at some point). I think the incentive to cut prices when you're not carrying the inventory is that after the game has been out for some time, the market won't support a higher price. Now you probably won't see Hostile Waters style $1.99 pricing (which was a shame for a variety of reasons), but I think the incentive is there to reduce the prices of older games. I think music doesn't depreciate quite the same way, and the benefit of the digital distribution model is that older material should stay in print for a much longer time.

[mutt]

I've got the answer to the piracy problem: Sell one disc for X million dollars and make it freely distributable. There. Problem solved.

Ouch. My tongue just punched a hole in my cheek.

[Mike O'Malley]

I've got the answer to the piracy problem: Sell one disc for X million dollars and make it freely distributable. There. Problem solved.

Ouch. My tongue just punched a hole in my cheek.

This reminds me of an anecdote in Hyperion, in which the author Martin Silenus was thrilled to learn that the AI community loved his book (and thus were prospective customers), only to learn that the entire Core had purchased only one copy and shared it.

[Xaroc]

I bought Half-Life 2 about when it was first released. Steam wouldn't let me install the game on another computer. Has it changed since then?

I installed the game on both my machine and my son's machine and it wasn't an issue. We were both able to play no problem. The only issue was if we both wanted to play on the same CS:S server it would bitch which I have no problems with. This was the downloaded version from steam not the boxed version.

-- Xaroc

[Chris Woods]

That wasn't my point, as I'm sure you know.

The point was the hardware is ubiquitous. You can't even cost-effectively get a cdr drive these days - you'd be better off to get a DVD-R.

Especially for new release games live Civ4, HL2, etc - that all require hardware new enough that it would likely have a DVD drive. So talk about overestimation - you're assuming that these idiots have a clue. Mostly, they don't. It's not the devs that decide these things after all - it's the dinosaurs in suits that run the pubs.

Again, this "businessmen are bad at business but geeks are geniuses" is a silly angle to take at the industry.

There is a large amount of in-place computers that use CD-Rom drives and until that changes most games will come out on CDR in an attempt to appeal to that segment of the market. There is no doubt that over time games will completely move to DVD, however until the base of installed CDRs drops off you won't see it.

Take WoW for example; came on like eighty-bajillion CDs. Do you honestly think that the Blizzard "suits" are so completely out of touch with the market that they would decide to do a higher cost of manufacturing and inconvenience their users? Do you really believe that none of the programmers/directors/designers took five seconds to eMail and say "why not DVD"?

Do you really and truly believe that every single business in the entire industry has some idiot who is simultaneously completely isolated to the entire world yet in charge of making every important decision?

Chris Woods

[PeterK]

I installed the game on both my machine and my son's machine and it wasn't an issue. We were both able to play no problem. The only issue was if we both wanted to play on the same CS:S server it would bitch which I have no problems with. This was the downloaded version from steam not the boxed version.

-- Xaroc

Hmm, I'll have to try it again. But if it doesn't allow playing together in a LAN game, it won't matter anyway.

[Backov]

Do you really and truly believe that every single business in the entire industry has some idiot who is simultaneously completely isolated to the entire world yet in charge of making every important decision?

Nope, just 85%. Sturgeon's Law. If you don't believe that, you're the one that's naive.

[Jason McCullough]

Jason, what do you mean by pirated versions being available? It's quite possible that every game had huge disk images available on some bitorrent channel that require specific piracy tools to work, and that might or might not actually work, but how many people do you think are going to bother with that? Simple and reliable cracks have been all but eliminated by copy protection -- I haven't found cracks on GCW for the last several games I bought. Did you?

Who needs cracks when you have Daemon Tools?

I don't subscribe to the "everyone in the industry is stupid but everyone on message boards are smart" line of reasoning. The majority of AAA titles continue to employ copy-protection schemes and they know full well that these schemes won't stop pirates. One is disillusioned to submit that the entire industry is stupid but that we know the truth.

"Entirely industry is doing something minor and dumb" isn't a shocking concept you know; look at major league baseball shitting its pants over Sabermetrics.

Seriously, no one is providing evidence that it's effective or even a problem, so until they do I'm saying it's internal office politics.

Online authentication games are the silver bullet here, as Half-Life 2 demonstrates, but I really doubt the industry is going to drop all single-player game development that's what, 90% of sales?, to solve a piracy problem that no one can quantify.

[Papageno]

I'm not familiar with the functionality of Daemon Tools, but does it allow you to make mini-images of your CDs or DVD's that actually work to fool the CP schemes? I thought DT still required you to have a bit by bit copy of the disc in the drive.

I have a lot of legitimately-purchased games, but the CD swap IS a hassle sometimes.

And to get back on topic: I like having a pressed CD or DVD in my possession in case my install gets FUBAR'd, but if it comes via snailmail two weeks after I download the game I don't mind. I don't want download-only though.

[Chris Woods]

Daemon Tools requires an image of the disc which can be stored on your Hard Drive, thus removing the need for CD swapping (or CDs in general.) The built in circumnavigations in DT are not reliable, however. Often you still need to crack the installed executable to bypass the CD validation check but still mount the CD via DT to access content that is streamed from the drive.

Chris Woods

[Papageno]

Well, having to have a 650 MB image taking up space on my HD is hardly any better than having to put the CD into the drive-- the only advantage is that I'm not handling the CD and thus there's less chance of my inadvertently scratching or damaging it, I guess.

[Jason McCullough]

Daemon Tools requires an image of the disc which can be stored on your Hard Drive, thus removing the need for CD swapping (or CDs in general.) The built in circumnavigations in DT are not reliable, however. Often you still need to crack the installed executable to bypass the CD validation check but still mount the CD via DT to access content that is streamed from the drive.

Chris Woods

Yeah, there's an ongoing war between the copy protect companies and the tools team, but most of the time it just works fine for me as soon as I create an image.

Also note you can create the image and chuck that into the warez networks, which is what people mostly do now.

[cliffski]

Digital downloads are definitely the future. Personally, I'd much rather games did an online server check than a CD check. I always lose CDs, or they get scratched, or the drive dies. with online sales and checks, who even needs a DVD drive? (ok maybe an exageration there).
On the piracy issue, it is a problem, yeah if you are some l33t sc1pt k1ddi3 then you will alwyas find a hack no matter what, but deterring casual piracy is very important. You'd be suprised just how casually people are prepared to pirate games when its easy, even offering copies to me ( a game developer) without even seeing he problem.
I had a guy recently who had bought starship tycoon and planetary defence. I guess he had lost the installer once and emailed me and id given him a new link (which i always do). The sneaky swine emailed me claiming he'd lost the installer for democracy too (which he never bought), hoping my customer database wasnt very detailed and he'd get a free copy. When people who have alreadt bought 2 of your games try and scam you directly by email into stealing a third, you gotta wonder about hw quick the average gamer is to get a hacked copy.
Copy protection sucks, but working for years on a game that widely played but never bought sucks more.

[Shadarr]

I would support a system where the installer is freely available but you have to buy a license key and it's checked online, on a couple conditions. The license server has to either be maintained by a trusted third party who won't go out of business, or else the developer has to create a patch and put it into escrow which will disable the license check. I don't want to get stuck with a game I can't play five years down the road.

[Kryten]

Just an observation - of the 5 games* that I've purchased which feature StarForce protection, only one of them has been priced at the "premium" price for games in this country ($100), the remainder have all been at $60 or less.

Maybe there's something behind this whole copy protection thing after all?

*(Silent Hunter III, Space Rangers 2, GTR, Trackmania and Trackmania Sunrise).

[Shadarr]

Maybe there's something behind this whole copy protection thing after all?

*(Silent Hunter III, Space Rangers 2, GTR, Trackmania and Trackmania Sunrise).
Err... what? Of the games you mention, I checked the first two and they are available on Bittorrent. Not well-seeded, but there. And the ISO includes a crack for Starforce. So what is the copy protection accomplishing?

[Kryten]

Unless something has changed very recently, your crack isn't that - it's a workaround that requires you to disable devices in your PC. Not exactly the same as copying a new executable into the installation directory.

Either way, these publishers have found a way to lower prices, presumably (back to conjecture on my part) because they don't see casual copying as such a threat to their revenue.

Like I said, just an observation.....

[Jason Cross]

I have water piped into my home, but I still buy bottled water at the store because it comes with a manual. Er, I mean it tastes better.

;)

You, my friend, need one of those Brita filters that screws onto your faucet. :)

[Shadarr]

Unless something has changed very recently, your crack isn't that - it's a workaround that requires you to disable devices in your PC. Not exactly the same as copying a new executable into the installation directory.

Either way, these publishers have found a way to lower prices, presumably (back to conjecture on my part) because they don't see casual copying as such a threat to their revenue.

Like I said, just an observation.....
Obviously I need to pirate Space Rangers 2. Y'know, for research.

[Igor Muravyev]

Unless something has changed very recently, your crack isn't that - it's a workaround that requires you to disable devices in your PC. Not exactly the same as copying a new executable into the installation directory.

Either way, these publishers have found a way to lower prices, presumably (back to conjecture on my part) because they don't see casual copying as such a threat to their revenue.

Like I said, just an observation.....

Or maybe the games are pale in quality to other AAA titles and they felt to give people an incentive to buy the games, they'd lower the price?

Oh, and, if I was pirating a game, I wouldn't care if the crack consisted of disabling drivers or merely copying over a binary -- a free game is still a free game.

[Kryten]

Or maybe the games are pale in quality to other AAA titles and they felt to give people an incentive to buy the games, they'd lower the price?

Ironically, the most expensive, SHIII, is also the only game not to have had a widespread North American release. Perhaps the Europeans have got more of a clue?

I know that I fall into the category of the purchaser who sees a $60 game as worth a shot, vs a $100 game where I consider very carefully.