Million Little Pieces Controversy

[Steve Canyon]

Oprah's wildly popular book of the month club pick, James Frey's Million Little Pieces, has been called a phony by The Smoking Gun. I wrote this for another list I participate in, but wanted to post here, too.

I have been waiting for this book from the library for months now and just finished. His memoir is terribly flawed grammatically, melodramatic, and has poor character development. However, the plot is gripping and it's incredibly engaging. I recommend it.

I started to read the TSG article but only read the first page and then scanned the others. I'm surprised the article was so comprehensive. If it had said Frey was still getting high or drinking or that he wasn't really an addict, it would bother me, but I don't think it did (someone can correct me if I'm wrong). As far as I can tell, all TSG has on Frey is people who remember events differently than Frey does, but none of that is new when it comes to memoir. Any memoir. It would have been a more effective expose if they had pictures of him smoking crack holding up a newspaper with some current headlines.

All I know about TSG is that it is the best place to go for celebrity mug shots. I imagine they make more advertising dollars with increased page views. Are they simply taking advantage of the popularity of the book to generate advertising revenue?

I thought the book seemed pretty genuine, but that doesn't mean I believe everything he says actually happened. I'm not sure it even matters. I'm convinced he is an addict and an alcoholic. It seems like a genuine account of his stay in treatment. If he exaggerated how tough he is as he went through treatment, I am sure he wasn't the first young man from a wealthy family to do that. If he downplayed some of the treatment rules and emphasized others for dramatic effect, he is not the first memoirist to do so, either.

His big point with this book seems to be that 12 Step programs are worthless and that addiction/alcoholism is a moral failing of weaklings. If he doesn’t' go for 12 Step meetings, I just hope he has some sort of support. It's not just the TSG debacle, but all this fame and fortune is sure to bring its own brand of misery.

The controversy has pushed this into the mainstream news and I learned his book was second only to Harry Potter this summer? My word! Anyone care to speculate what that might mean in actual dollars?

[Troy S Goodfellow]

I haven't read the book, but I did read the TSG article simply because I find literary fraud fascinating.

Their central point is that Frey wasn't the "hard case" he made himself out to be. No troubled childhood, no attempts to assault an officer, and no relationship with the victim of a train accident. All these details are invented or exaggerated.

The publisher has come out and said that whatever dramatic license he took in his "memoir" was acceptable.

But when a guy says (as Frey has in the past) that everything in the book is "true", what does that mean? It's certainly not "accurate", and if he hasn't had a substance abuse problem since he was 12, does that put his recovery story into a new perspective?

Troy

[Jamie Madigan]

I haven't read the book, but my wife has and I plan to (it's sitting on my "nightstand queue"). I kind of wonder what all the hubub is about. This isn't billed as an autobiography, is it? I always assumed it was a dramatized version of a true story. Or is it that the author has been marketing it as a 100% true story?

By the way, I loved the South Park episode ("Bloody Mary" I think) that makes the same point about 12-step programs like AA. Stan's dad is forced to go to an AA meeting after getting arrested for an isolated night of bad jugement and drunk driving. The AA guy tells him he has a DISEASE and that he's powerless to cure it himself. So Stan's dad becomes a weelchair-bound, melodramatic, raging alcoholic. Because, you know, it's out of his control. I'm pretty sure the episode is a nod to this book.

[Nick Walter]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/SHOWBIZ/books/01/11/arts.frey.reut/index.html

Apparently as a result of the controversy the publisher is offering consumers a refund for the book. That's a first.

[Steve Canyon]

But when a guy says (as Frey has in the past) that everything in the book is "true", what does that mean? It's certainly not "accurate", and if he hasn't had a substance abuse problem since he was 12, does that put his recovery story into a new perspective?

Troy

Did the TSG article say he hasn't used any substances since he was 12? I don't think they make that claim, Troy. That's my point. They don't attack the substance of the book: that he was a crackhead, went to treatment, and stopped using drugs at age 23 or 24.

The TSG article is about cops or parents of his high school friends saying they didn't remember all the incidents happening exactly the way Frey describes them. I don't think this is that unusual. I know if I get together with my family and we start telling stories from when we were kids, sometimes there is very little we can agree upon. You would think they grew up in some other family.

That said there were parts of the book that I didn't think were realistic or felt exaggerated. Some of these were touched upon by the TSG article. It is supposed to be a non-fiction memoir, but we're talking about memories from 10 years ago, so I'm not sure it is held to the same standard as a PhD thesis.

What do you mean by literary fraud Troy? I tend to think of plagiarism as literary fraud, but can creative non fiction be fraudulent? Can you even put a character's words in quotes in creative non-fiction, if you're not sure that is exactly what they said.

[Steve Canyon]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/SHOWBIZ/books/01/11/arts.frey.reut/index.html

Apparently as a result of the controversy the publisher is offering consumers a refund for the book. That's a first.

Wow. That is something.

[Kiam]

A Million Pieces of Shit (http://www.exile.ru/2003-May-29/book_review.html)

[MatthewF]

Actual sentences? Holy shit.

I go back to the medical unit and I find a Nurse and I tell her I have to go to the Dentist and she checks the outside appointment book and it checks and she sends me to a waiting room and I wait.

I see that I'm late and I see People look up and stare at me and I ignore them and I get a bowl of gray mushy oatmeal and I dump a large pile of sugar on it and I find a place at an empty table and I sit down.

Who could read that crap? I really need one of those laughing smilies right now.

[Dean]

I haven't read the book, but I heard about this last night on NPR. The main point TSG made was that he didn't do 90 days in jail for controlled substances, he did about 4-5 hours for DUI. So when he talks about reading aloud to his cellmate and befriending him-- and apparently large portions of his second book rely on this relationship-- it couldn't have happened.

He also talks about being arrested for jumping a curb and hitting a police officer with his car then being found with a rock of crack in his car. The police officer doesn't recall being hit by a car (you'd think he'd remember), he apparently went over to a guy parked in a yellow zone (across from a fire station) to tell him to move his car and noticed the guy was drunk, and carrying a can of Pabst blue ribbon, so he took him in on drunk driving.

The point the editor of TSG was making was that this guy is no Criminal (and apparently he capitalizes criminal throughout his book), he's a drunken frat boy who is making things up wholesale.

Here's the story. (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5148103)

[Sarkus]

It's pretty clear there is more going on here than the author having slightly different recollections of what happened. The TSG article is only focused on what details it could easily document through public records and found plenty of major differences. The end result is that the author's situation was no where near as dire as he presents it to be, at least in legal terms.

Where that matters is in how his book impacts the readers who think he's telling the truth. The book's popularity is based on the reader believing that what he says is real - even if all you did was tone down the legal issues it changes the intensity of the situation drastically.

[Alan Dunkin]

Creative embellishments in a story that contains entire falsehoods sounds like literary fraud to me. Almost seems like the Frank Hopkins/Hidalgo story all over again.

--- Alan

[Rob Beschizza]

He's also doing that dance where he admits its embellished and made up and says "It's all for dramatic effect," but turns around and says it's all real, and threatens TSG with a libel suit.

They guy's just a garden-variety junkie who wrote a "Mary Sue" novel, couldn't get it published, re-marketed it as nonfiction, got the deal, and lost control of the beast when it took off.

[Troy S Goodfellow]

Did the TSG article say he hasn't used any substances since he was 12? I don't think they make that claim, Troy. That's my point. They don't attack the substance of the book: that he was a crackhead, went to treatment, and stopped using drugs at age 23 or 24.

They certainly suggest that he wasn't the heavy child/teenage user that he supposedly purports to be. Did he use at all? Who knows. Again, my knowledge of his specific claims is limited to Oprah (hey, it was on in the background), some book reviews and this article.

What do you mean by literary fraud Troy? I tend to think of plagiarism as literary fraud, but can creative non fiction be fraudulent? Can you even put a character's words in quotes in creative non-fiction, if you're not sure that is exactly what they said.

I didn't mean to imply that this is certainly literary fraud. I'm not in a position to make that claim, though the publisher's refund offer hints that they think this is a little more than "creative non-ficiton". This allegedly isn't a misquote or a paraphrase, but a guy going on national TV claiming that everything that happened really happened and then finding out that, in fact, it didn't. Or at least not in any way like he described.

Plagiarism is literary fraud for sure. Hoaxes like "Hitler's Diary" count. Lying autobiographies are up there, too. "Creative non-fiction", like that Morris' Reagan bio "Dutch" is a gray line with me.

If someone wants to make it a novel told from the first person, or say "inspired by true events", that's one thing. And I think something can be "true" emotionally and ideologically without necessarily being accurate (think history movies).

Should there be non-fiction/fiction lines at all? Is a memoir different from an autobiography? Where does bad memory end and fiction begin? All interesting questions, I think.

Without having read the book, I can only comment in generalities about what cases like this imply. Frey's specific honesty or dishonesty, skill or lack thereof, mission or snake oil...these are things I leave to people who have read the book.

Troy

[Jakub]

Two words: fat otter.

[Sidd_Budd]

I haven't read the book, but my wife has and I plan to (it's sitting on my "nightstand queue"). I kind of wonder what all the hubub is about. This isn't billed as an autobiography, is it? I always assumed it was a dramatized version of a true story. Or is it that the author has been marketing it as a 100% true story?
It's billed as a memoir, which seems like a fuzzy blur between fiction and non-fiction, much like "documentary" now is used in the film industry. I haven't read the memoir, but read the Smoking Gun piece and found it interesting.

I'm troubled that the guy has spoken at treatment centers as an inspirational example of a person with a really fucked up past who manages to clean himself up. The article focuses more on holes with the author's alleged legal involvement, rather than his substance use, but there's substantial changes in his written account -- he alleged that due to being drunk and high, he resisted arrest, screamed obscenities at cops, and was beaten down with clubs. In reality, he was arrested for an open beverage in the car, and the arresting officer recalled him as a pleasant polite guy who cooperated, a typical frat boy in a college town that catered to wealthy kids. Kudos to him if he's kicked substances, but I think the people who see him as a role model should be aware of his real struggle, not this wholesale embellishment.

[Alan Dunkin]

I don't see a memoir was blurring the distinction between fiction and nonfiction at all, but more of a personal retelling of your experience and/or biography. There's nothing in the definition that I know of or anything in the way of "non-fiction" that tells me that I have to blazenly lie about my experiences to make them sound better.

I have no problem at all calling it literary fraud - given the state of facts currently.

--- Alan

[Steve Canyon]

I wonder if they can the planned movie now? If they do and all the books go back to the publisher, he should write a non-fiction book about his experience! :)

[Sebmolo]

From metafilter; pure gold (http://www.nealpollack.com/cgi-bin/blog/do.cgi/200304290132/permalink).

[Robert Coffey]

Let's talk about JT LeRoy instead. There's some weird ass fraud for you.

[Nellie]

If the Guardian article isn't online I'll transcribe it. can't say I've read of him/her/them but it sounds quite intruiging.

[Phil_Stein]

He's a literary Vanilla Ice - making up stories to make his life much more compelling than it really was/is.

This isn't differing recollections of events - it's flat out lies by the author. Please read the Smoking Gun piece if you haven't already done so.

[Sarkus]

He was on Larry King tonite and much to my surprise King actually asked him some direct questions. His answers varied from "memories are relative" to "I've admitted since I wrote it that it wasn't all factual" to "the TSG stuff only deals with a small part of what the book is about." He didn't answer anything directly from what I saw or admit that he exagerrated for literary effect.

Apparently Oprah called in but I didn't see that part so I don't know what she said.

[Toddy]

Who could read that crap? I really need one of those laughing smilies right now.

Well, I'm not saying your examples are particularly good, but the guy does seem to have a stream-of-consciousness thing going on there that could be effective when detailing stressful situations like drug rehab.

[Lloyd Heilbrunn]

Well, I'm not saying your examples are particularly good, but the guy does seem to have a stream-of-consciousness thing going on there that could be effective when detailing stressful situations like drug rehab.


"Stream-of-consciousness" or never heard of a comma?? :)

[Jack Black]

A Million Pieces of Shit (http://www.exile.ru/2003-May-29/book_review.html)

I just find this hilarious.

I found myself becoming morbidly fascinated by the number of conjunctions Frey could pile into a single sentence. The one I just quoted has six "and"s. Not bad, but hardly a record. A few pages earlier, Frey offers a sparkling account of getting a bowl of oatmeal which is sustained by seven "and"s; "...I see that I'm late and I see People look up and stare at me and I ignore them and I get a bowl of gray mushy oatmeal and I dump a large pile of sugar on it and I find a place at an empty table and I sit down."

Also, that Neal Pollack is one crazy motha.

On topic and an actual question: Anyone who has read the book answer this? Do you think that someone who has overcome drugs in their own life without rehab and such is going to think this book is a "tale of inspiration" or whatever it's dubbed, or more of a "rich-boy thinks outloud what you already know" vibe?

If it's the former, I might pick it up to see what the buzz is about. If it's the latter, it's got to be hilariously funny or I won't read it.

[Toddy]

Same thing. ;-)

Just read the TSG piece. Wow. Gotta admire the guy for the audacity of this fraud, even while hating him for being such an asshole rich kid who screwed over so many people, including the family of that Sanders girl. Made millions and almost got a movie made. Surely this is the end of the road, though. There doesn't seem to be any truth in any of this crap. Which isn't surprising, since the examples in the TSG story cited from the books just seem totally unbelievable. Especially the Porterhouse stuff. That was flat-out hilarious.

How could anyone have bought any of this? I'd never heard of Frey or his books before yesterday when this scandal blew up, as these self-help books and memoirs seems a lot more popular in the US than in Canada, but I'm amazed to hear that millions are absorbed by this nonsense. Yeah, you could make friends with a double-murderer and bring love into his heart by reading him Leaves of Grass. Sounds plausible.

[Toddy]

If it's the former, I might pick it up to see what the buzz is about. If it's the latter, it's got to be hilariously funny or I won't read it.

You'd buy this? Even for a laugh, uh, no thanks. Rewarding Frey seems pretty crass given what he's done.

Also, I'm sure the book really is A Million Pieces of Shit, but it's unfair to criticize the guy on grammatical grounds. Those example sentences make it really clear that Frey is writing in this manner intentionally. It's a stylistic device meant to convey his state of mind, etc. Doesn't mean that the end product is any good, but saying "man, this guy loves conjunctions" is a really facile complaint. I could post isolated paragraphs from Joyce that look even more incompetent and annoying.

[Steve Canyon]

Well, I'm not saying your examples are particularly good, but the guy does seem to have a stream-of-consciousness thing going on there that could be effective when detailing stressful situations like drug rehab.

Exactly. It doesn't really work well out of context. It did very well this summer. I read it sold like 1.75 million copies this summer. I believe he has a movie deal in the works. Say what you like, but there are quite a few people out there who have purchased this book. If it's all made up, he's sort of shot himself in the foot.

[Jack Black]

You'd buy this? Even for a laugh, uh, no thanks. Rewarding Frey seems pretty crass given what he's done.

Unfortunately I have already had a few people try to suggest the book to me. I did read the Amazon reviews and was fairly undecided, it's obvious he's got alot of enemies, but it was also a Summer best-seller.

As an addict (or I guess former, but I doubt that with the kind of cash he's got rolling around) you'd expect him to be crass. People are trying to tear apart his "hard times" and how it seems at least popular enough to get on Oprah's Book'o'the Housewife club. He's probably new to fame or critisim (if he's a richboyh) so he's handling it shitty. Or he's just a douchebag. That's what I'm looking to find out whether or not I waste my time.

[Steve Canyon]

Unfortunately I have already had a few people try to suggest the book to me. I did read the Amazon reviews and was fairly undecided, it's obvious he's got alot of enemies, but it was also a Summer best-seller.


Get it from the library. I hated it for the first 100 pages, but I stuck it out to find out what the fuss was all about and then I got into it.

[extarbags]

Seems like this thread could have gone in Books.

Anyway, I don't know or care whether this guy's portrayal of his life is accurate or not. What I do know is that this book is a joke. I know this because I read the review linked above, and it contained this brief excerpt:

I start crying again.

Softly crying.

I think of Lilly and I cry.

It's all I can do.

Cry.

Is that shit really in there? It's awful.

Edit: Jesus Christ another one:

I go back to the medical unit and I find a Nurse and I tell her I have to go to the Dentist and she checks the outside appointment book and it checks and she sends me to a waiting room and I wait.

Another Edit: The hits just keep on comin':

...I see that I'm late and I see people look up and stare at me and I ignore them and I get a bowl of gray mushy oatmeal and I dump a large pile of sugar on it and I find a place at an empty table and I sit down.

Last edit, I swear: This guy also apparently doesn't know what a beaver is and claims that being in rehab for crack addiction means you can't have novocaine, which seems pretty crazy to me. You know what? Just read the review. I'd want my money back too, if I paid for this thing.

[Jakub]

It depresses me that women fall all over themselves to buy it. "Oh, he's such a rebel... but in such pain" *wipes away a tear before reaching in between legs*

[Chris Nahr]

Those quotes read like excerpts from the dullest blog in the world (http://www.wibsite.com/wiblog/dull/). Except with drugs.

[Rob Beschizza]

Today Show, of all places, perfectly summed up the problem, and why "It's just a memoir" doesn't cut it.

They showed an excerpt of him on Larry King last night doing the "It's just a memoir, memoirs don't have to be 100% factually correct" dance.

Then they immediately cut to an excerpt of him from some other interview, saying what amounts to "This isn't a memoir. This is 100% factually correct.

[Jeremy Johnsen]

Wow, I thought only the Daily Show confronted lies like that.

[MatthewF]

Wow, I thought only the Daily Show confronted lies like that.
The world will be a much cooler place when everyone does this. *sheds tear*

[ElGuapo]

Ok, let's take another example. Let's say that you read the inspirational memoir of some guy who says he's a millionare. He tells you all the neat stuff he did, and says education is worthless, and training is worthless, and you just have to be strong willed and persevere. He then goes on to tell you his life story and how he got rich by coming up with some great innovation, product, etc.

Then the story breaks that yeah, he was kinda well-off at some point, but not so much as he says. Also, he was just a member of the team that came up with the idea or product. Also, all those anecdotes are educations being worthless . . . well, that doesn't really matter either, because he got his MBA.

Wouldn't you be pissed? This guy is a liar and a fraud. Fuck 'im.

[Bren]

The world will be a much cooler place when everyone does this. *sheds tear*

Reach between legs?

[JMR]

Reach between legs?


Ease the seat back.

[bago]

Oh No! The crackhead LIED!

[MatthewF]

Oprah Dismisses Claims About Frey Memoir (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060112/ap_on_en_ot/books_disputed_memoir;_ylt=AlJ4UIQC1RF.nomHcEX8OiO s0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3ODdxdHBhBHNlYwM5NjQ-)

Well, not really. She more or less excuses them:

"What is relevant is that he was a drug addict ... and stepped out of that history to be the man he is today and to take that message to save other people and allow them to save themselves," Winfrey said Wednesday night in a surprise phone call to CNN's Larry King, who was interviewing Frey on his live television program.
So why isn't it relevant that he most likely lied about just about everything in his book? What does Oprah have to gain here by continuing to endorse him? Is she afraid that if she acknowledges that he lied she might lose credibility herself? I don't get it because seriously, the more she stands in denial of the truth being presented to her, the worse she looks. The million or so people that bought the book because of her show deserve better, I think.

edit: sorry, fixed the link.

[extarbags]

More importantly, is it relevant that the guy is such a godawful writer?

[quatoria]

I'll never read or buy the book, but I'm damn glad he wrote it, because it gave us this bit from the exile.ru review, that I can't believe nobody else has quoted.

"I miss Lilly.

I miss Lilly.

I miss Lilly."

My reading of this passage is that he missed Lilly. But then I'm a trained literary critic. Other readers may have other, equally valid interpretations.

[MikeSofaer]

That's been quoted. My favorite is the sylvester the cat line.

[extarbags]

While we were talking about this yesterday, I was actually at my mom's house, on her computer. I happened to glance over to my left, and there it was, on top of her dresser :/.

I flipped through it and read maybe ten passages at random. Suffice to say that the author of that review did not single out especially bad passages. Every word is that bad.

[VegasRobb]

How do we know that he made millions? This is his first book, wouldn't the terms of his book deal be extremely favorable to the publisher? Maybe that's why he was pushing so hard to get a movie made?

[Ben]

"Imagine this novel was a screenplay by the dumb brother in Adaptation. "

Reading the excerpts and synopsi, that strikes me as a perfect review. Also, we've learned something valuable today: Steve Canyon and Toddy have horrible, horrible taste in writing.

I'm reasonably certain that the entire genre of "Whiny rich brat has quirky bad things happen to him but somehow overcomes" is punishment from a vengeful God, probably for something the human race hasn't done yet. Because I can't think of anything anyone has ever done that could provoke Igby Goes Down.

[Steve Canyon]

Most of you have not read the book, but are commenting upon it as if you have. Didn't Kontz get a lot of crap for commenting on movies he hadn't seen? (yes, this includes you and your 10 passages extarbags)

Now this thread will blossom to at least 2 pages as everyone feels the need to explain why it's okay to comment on a book/movie you haven't read.

[Steve Canyon]

And if that doesnt' get us to two pages, this will:The book is wildly popular, as evidenced by the hundreds of thousands of copies sold and TSG taking a shot at it. How do you people explain that?

[Troy S Goodfellow]

And if that doesnt' get us to two pages, this will:The book is wildly popular, as evidenced by the hundreds of thousands of copies sold and TSG taking a shot at it. How do you people explain that?

Oprah.

She put Faulkner back on the best selling list. Promoting therapy/memoir/do-it-yourself lit is much easier.

Troy

[MatthewF]

Most of you have not read the book, but are commenting upon it as if you have. Didn't Kontz get a lot of crap for commenting on movies he hadn't seen? (yes, this includes you and your 10 passages extarbags)

Now this thread will blossom to at least 2 pages as everyone feels the need to explain why it's okay to comment on a book/movie you haven't read.
That's not what's happening here at all. We're commenting on the TSG debacle, the exile review, and excerpts and synopsis of the book. Based on that information alone, I've formed the advance opinion that this is not only a book I would never want to read, but also that James Frey is a hack fraud with a victim complex and terrible writing style. I feel that by giving him the attention he wants by reading his book, I'm doing myself a disservice. If it was labelled as fiction, maybe. But the ensuing bullshit of later revelations about the book's validity are really off-putting.

[Steve Canyon]

That's not what's happening here at all. We're commenting on the TSG debacle, the exile review, and excerpts and synopsis of the book. Based on that information alone, I've formed the advance opinion that this is not only a book I would never want to read, but also that James Frey is a hack fraud with a victim complex and terrible writing style. I feel that by giving him the attention he wants by reading his book, I'm doing myself a disservice. If it was labelled as fiction, maybe. But the ensuing bullshit of later revelations about the book's validity are really off-putting.

Talk about the controversy all you want, but when you slip into an opinion of the book, you're offering a review of a book you haven't read, like it or not.

[Rob Beschizza]

This isn't some kind of Koontzian deconstruction of philosophical precepts imagined to underpin the essential character of a work of art one has not seen.

This is about a rich-kid junkie who, despite spending half his life on drugs, couldn't actually misbehave consistently enough to spend more than 1/200 of the time in jail that Martha Stewart did. So he wrote a novel about the life he wished he'd led, couldn't get it published, edited it into a fake memoir, then blubbered and conned Oprah and the reading public into making him a millionaire.

It's like the Amityville Horror - you don't need to have read it to know that it's bullshit, and to condemn the bullshit for what it is.

[Jakub]

Talk about the controversy all you want, but when you slip into an opinion of the book, you're offering a review of a book you haven't read, like it or not.
That's quite the stretch.

Offering an opinion is several degrees of difference short of giving a full review.

I can give you an opinion on King Kong: "Well, the special effects look great", without having seeing it - judging by the trailers. That's not a review.

Saying that the excerpts of writing that we've seen are the kind of pompous tripe that turns our stomachs doesn't make those comments a review of the book either.

[Steve Canyon]

Oprah.

She put Faulkner back on the best selling list. Promoting therapy/memoir/do-it-yourself lit is much easier.

Troy

Yes, the Oprah factor. I was glad she called in to offer her support when Frey was on Larry King. I like loyalty like that. What she said about the controversy mirrors my own opinion.

If TSG showed us he had not been an addict and alcoholic after all, they would have a good point. If TSG shows us Frey was an addict but relapsed after treatment and was currently using drugs, then the book is a lie. But TSG can't demonstrate either of these things.

All TSG shows us is that some people can view the exact same event and have a completely different perception. We already knew this sort of thing happens, but TSG never even acknowledges this simple fact. I find it perfectly plausible that the girls dying in the car accident make Frey feel guilty and vilified by his classmates, although the girls' parents never realize this. I also don't have a problem with Frey conflating these two
girls into one for dramatic purposes. It hardly matters to the story. What's important is how he feels about their deaths, which seems to be communicated accurately.

I guess there is the point about jail time, but I don't even understand that point. He doesn't go to jail in this book. He is in rehab. There is the threat of prison throughout the book, but that is just a threat. TSG says nothing about the threat being a hoax. The book closes with him leaving rehab. No jail time mentioned. If someone understands how this point relates to the book, I'd like to know.

Early in the book he says he intends to do his time, even if it is years in prison. This is before he realizes his sentence has been commuted. This statement emphasizes his willingness to take responsibility for his own life's course. He has to do something like this to stay sober. He does stay sober. TSG doesn't dispute this fact. Even if the sentence has been changed for dramatic purposes, the important point is that he decides to take responsibility for his actions and stay sober. It hardly matters if he gets no jail time (as TSG seems to indicate) or if he gets 90 days of jail time (as it says in the book). The important part is he changes his way of thinking and stays sober.

There are some other TSG points, but those have to do with Frey's second book, which I haven't read. TSG mostly take shots at his writing style, which as other have mentioned, is an affect and makes sense for the book. I think the TSG article is a little one sided. It smacks of TSG taking an easy shot to get some Web hits for their site.

[Steve Canyon]

That's quite the stretch.

Offering an opinion is several degrees of difference short of giving a full review.

I can give you an opinion on King Kong: "Well, the special effects look great", without having seeing it - judging by the trailers. That's not a review.

Saying that the excerpts of writing that we've seen are the kind of pompous tripe that turns our stomachs doesn't make those comments a review of the book either.

Of course you're right, Jakub. I just wanted to taunt you all with being a Koontz. You've seen right through me.

[Steve Canyon]

This is about a rich-kid junkie who, despite spending half his life on drugs, couldn't actually misbehave consistently enough to spend more than 1/200 of the time in jail that Martha Stewart did.

But you see Jakub, this is what I mean. Here we have what seems to be a review, but misses the mark by a wide margin for lack of reading the book.

I know you haven't read the book, Rob. Why are you attempting to analyze something you haven't even read? You can say how you feel about the TSG article. You can say how you feel about literary fraud. But you can't offer a critique of something you haven't even read.

[Sidd_Budd]

Talk about the controversy all you want, but when you slip into an opinion of the book, you're offering a review of a book you haven't read, like it or not.
I agree that opinions on the book's quality from people who have just read excerpts (extarbags, the capitals are a Stylistic convention) are ill-informed and add no value.

The book is wildly popular, as evidenced by the hundreds of thousands of copies sold and TSG taking a shot at it. How do you people explain that?
How do I explain it? Let's review some recent media that were widely popular.
* Film: War of the Worlds and Wedding Crashers were both in the top 5 for domestic box office sales for 2005.
* Music: Mariah Carey & 50 Cent had the #1 and #2 top-selling CDs for 2005.
* TV: CSI: Miami, Desperate Housewives, and Grey's Anatomy are all in the top 5 Nielsen ratings for the 2005-2006 season.
Do you really believe that most of the above are excellent, High Quality media? I doubt it. To be fair, I haven't reviewed material from all the artists above, but that's because I found better stuff in all three areas. At best, you could say that many of the above provide decent entertainment.

I think people respond to marketing and advertising, and consume media that are familiar or heavily promoted. Mass popularity often rules out really bad stuff, but doesn't guarantee exceptional quality.

You started the thread on the controversy, and congrats for trying to keep your post on topic as we baboons try derailing it. But if you want to defend the literary merits of the book, rather than debate the extent to which Frey's memory can be Creatively Remembered, use a more compelling argument than "lots of people bought it, so it must be great."

That won't fly on a board frequented by game developers, fans, and reviewers who have to endure bland crap like Madden NFL 06 and Mall of America Tycoon on best-seller lists.

[Rob Beschizza]

But you see Jakub, this is what I mean. Here we have what seems to be a review,
Since you quoted in your criticism of my "review" something I'd said about the author, here's what I said that actually referred to the book:

"fake memoir"

If this is a book review, I look forward to my spectacularly easy and productive career as a book reviewer!


but misses the mark by a wide margin for lack of reading the book.

Seriously, man, the guy went on Larry King and admitted to making some of it up. Why do I have to read the whole book to agree with him? Though you have a good general point, here you call foul even when few have done much except insult the author and mock things about the book which are widely known. I'm just calling a fraud a fraud, and I can't for the life of me see how you derive a "review" from what I wrote.

More to the point, there's nothing wrong with singling out specific claims contained within a book, presented as factually correct, for examination independently of the whole literary work. If those specific claims are demonstrably false, then certain limited conclusions can be drawn as to the factual reliability and credibility of the author.

When you say this "misses the mark," you seem to put yourself into a pretty silly position: that Frey's claims about his past cannot be ridiculed -- such obvious hogwash as they are -- until his book is read. What you said before, regarding the intensity and sincerity of the author's feelings, and even exaggeration for dramatic effect, would be fine if it were a novel, or if Frey had said "embellished memoir: enjoy!" from the beginning. But he didn't.

But you can't offer a critique of something you haven't even read.
I've read parts of it, though, which, given the "Author's earlier claims vs. his own admission" problem, seems enough to provisionally justify "Fake Memoir" for the purposes of Internet discussion boards.

[extarbags]

Steve, I think most of my comments have been in the vein of "this guy is a fucking terrible writer." That's not really a comment about the book persay; I could just as easily say that Dan Brown is a bad writer, and that's why I won't read his next book. You don't have to read every word someone has ever written to know that they're a good or bad writer.

Read those excerpts, Steve. That's just plain awful writing. I've literally read book reports written by eighth graders that are more eloquent and engaging.

Edit: and to be clear, I don't think there's anything wrong with a fake or embellished memoir; I think Dave Eggers' A Heartbreaking Work of Staggering Genius is a really good book that fits that exact description, by the author's own admission in the book itself. What I take exception to is the dishonesty, but to a much greater extent, the guy's incredible lack of talent and intellect.

[Tom McNamara]

Yes, the Oprah factor. I was glad she called in to offer her support when Frey was on Larry King. I like loyalty like that. What she said about the controversy mirrors my own opinion.

If TSG showed us he had not been an addict and alcoholic after all, they would have a good point. If TSG shows us Frey was an addict but relapsed after treatment and was currently using drugs, then the book is a lie. But TSG can't demonstrate either of these things.

All TSG shows us is that some people can view the exact same event and have a completely different perception. We already knew this sort of thing happens, but TSG never even acknowledges this simple fact. I find it perfectly plausible that the girls dying in the car accident make Frey feel guilty and vilified by his classmates, although the girls' parents never realize this. I also don't have a problem with Frey conflating these two
girls into one for dramatic purposes. It hardly matters to the story. What's important is how he feels about their deaths, which seems to be communicated accurately.

Back the truck up. TSG uncovered police records dating back to the events depicted in the book, and spoke to dozens of relevant individuals, none of whom corroborated a shred of Frey's claims. He completely made shit up. Root canal without anesthesia? Are you frigging kidding me? Walking onto an airplane covered in blood, snot, and other bodily fluids? Waving a dismissive hand at a grossly exaggerated rehab clinic and claiming that the "Hold On" trick will work? How many people do you think are going to kill themselves because Frey has convinced them that rehab is a joke? How many lives have already been needlessly lost?

This is not "some people," Steve. No one TSG spoke to had anything to say that was in line with Frey's recollection. The fines and jail time are ridiculous compared to the offenses (some of which don't exist or didn't exist at the time Frey claims to have been incarcerated)... Look, man, you have been had.

[Steve Canyon]

TSG uncovered police records dating back to the events depicted in the book, and spoke to dozens of relevant individuals, none of whom corroborated a shred of Frey's claims. He completely made shit up. Root canal without anesthesia? Are you frigging kidding me? Walking onto an airplane covered in blood, snot, and other bodily fluids? Waving a dismissive hand at a grossly exaggerated rehab clinic and claiming that the "Hold On" trick will work? How many people do you think are going to kill themselves because Frey has convinced them that rehab is a joke? How many lives have already been needlessly lost?

This is not "some people," Steve. No one TSG spoke to had anything to say that was in line with Frey's recollection. The fines and jail time are ridiculous compared to the offenses (some of which don't exist or didn't exist at the time Frey claims to have been incarcerated)

The book is about his stay in rehab. I'm not sure what any of what you're talking about has to do with that. Is TSG saying he never went to rehab? Is TSG saying he isn't a drug addict? Do you think he is the first wealthy addict to find himself in a treatment facility and exaggerate what a tough guy he is? Do you think he is the first addict to buck the authority of the treatment center? What do you imagine happens in drug treatment? I've actually read the book and it seemed pretty genuine and authentic, even if it isn't completely accurate. That's all I'm saying here.

I don't believe you can understand what I'm saying because you haven't read the book and are basing your opinion solely on the TSG article. I'm just suggesting there may be another side to this, but if you don't want to hear it, then I guess you won't hear it.

[Ben]

Do you think he is the first wealthy addict to find himself in a treatment facility and exaggerate what a tough guy he is? Do you think he is the first addict to buck the authority of the treatment center? What do you imagine happens in drug treatment? I've actually read the book and it seemed pretty genuine and authentic, even if it isn't completely accurate.


What a bizarre train of argument. The book is consistent with itself, so therefore it's genuine?

I'd just like to recall this conversation of a few days back, after Steve said that he fell asleep halfway through Oldboy because it wasn't making any sense. I responded that without watching the whole movie that's a silly criticism,

Well, I certainly can complain that Old Boy makes no sense. What I watched made no sense to me. Am I to lipstick this chicken simply because I can't bear to watch any more?

I didn't even understand that he used the woman to find out about his daughter. It was incomprehensible to me. He attacks her as she sits on the potty and the next thing I know she is filling him in on his life, although he just met her. Maybe I fell asleep during an important scene?

I suppose I could drink coffee and then watch the movie over again, but I like a movie to grab my interest and hold me spellbound. Is that too much to ask?

I did watch a hallway fight scene, which was fabulous but defiantly dream like. He is stabbed in the back yet continues to kick ass. Guys are writhing on the floor like so many worms after a single punch, maybe two. He stops to rest and as many as four or five guys wait for him to recover, so he can punch them down to the ground. Great choreography but not what I would call a realistic fight. And I have had my ass kicked a number of times, so I should know!

[Steve Canyon]

You started the thread on the controversy, and congrats for trying to keep your post on topic as we baboons try derailing it. But if you want to defend the literary merits of the book, rather than debate the extent to which Frey's memory can be Creatively Remembered, use a more compelling argument than "lots of people bought it, so it must be great."

That's a good point, Sidd. I didn't mean to suggest the book should be added to the canon. I realize that wildly popular doesn't equal high quality. But there is something compelling to a lot of people here and I'm mildly interested in trying to understand what it is. I imagine Oprah and marketing had much to do with it. A side issue might be whether the
current fraud controversy is a good or bad for the popularity of the book.

But the issue I want to discuss has more to do with the story and the accusations of fraud. What does it mean to be honest when you're telling your story. Is something as revealing as the Frey story suddenly not honest because some facts don't check out? Because people don't remember it the same? I'm not so sure.

There was a Maureen Dowd article (http://select.nytimes.com/2006/01/14/opinion/14dowd.html) in the papers today about the Rosenbaum tragedy, which touched on this issue of honesty and directly mentioned the Frey's book scandal. Of course my heart goes out to the Rosenbaum family, but I would like to set that aside for a moment and explore Maureen Dowd's concept of honesty.

I like to think most people try to be honest. I think we can all agree it is generally a good thing to be honest. I am not sure that being honest is as black and white as this article seems to suggest. I am also more than a little uncomfortable with comparing James Frey's work with the work that led America to Iraq. Colin Powell is still on my shit list. This is because I expected much more from him. James Frey is not. Possibly this is because he has shared so much of himself with me.

I didn't follow the article completely but it seems to suggest that counting the heads of twelve year olds at the picture show is the kind of honesty we should all strive for. I'm not so sure. This is the easiest kind of honesty to achieve. You count the heads, you write the check. It's all very black and white. To me honesty has more to do with being self-reflective in all your affairs. You wonder if you're not giving Smith a recommendation because of her race or gender. You agonize over blowing your top in the checkout line at the grocer. The people I know who are like this do so only because down deep they are certain they are deeply flawed. It's a humble approach to life. There is nothing wrong with counting the head's of twelve year olds, but you want to make sure doing so doesn't make you feel too grand about yourself. When you start feeling too grand, it's much easier to be less thoughtful. James Frey has done something many people don't do. He has done it poorly and made mistakes (grammatical and otherwise :), but what the hell. It's not like his decisions effect the fate of thousands of Iraqis and Americans.

[Steve Canyon]

I'd just like to recall this conversation of a few days back, after Steve said that he fell asleep halfway through Oldboy because it wasn't making any sense. I responded that without watching the whole movie that's a silly criticism,

Hey, it just so happens I watched the end of Old Boy last night and enjoyed myself. I wish the director would have found a way to make it more compelling in the earlier half, but the end was an interesting twist that I didn't expect. Thanks for the recommendation. I owe a thanks to all the others who suggested I go back and give it another try.

Perhaps I am being unfair here, with the Frey controversy, suggesting people need to read the actual book to form an opinion. In my defense I'd say that no one here has read much of it, whereas I watched the first hour or so of Old Boy before offering my opinion. Were I to attack Old Boy on the trailer and reviews alone you might have a stronger point.

[Steve Canyon]

When you say this "misses the mark," you seem to put yourself into a pretty silly position: that Frey's claims about his past cannot be ridiculed -- such obvious hogwash as they are -- until his book is read. What you said before, regarding the intensity and sincerity of the author's feelings, and even exaggeration for dramatic effect, would be fine if it were a novel, or if Frey had said "embellished memoir: enjoy!" from the beginning. But he didn't.

Perhaps I am unfairly criticizing you, Rob. I don't mean to do that. I am trying to encourage a discussion of how memoir should work and what it means to be honest. Obviously if someone writes a non-fiction book about their expereince in a high level White House position and then it later comes out that it's all hogwash, we readers feel betrayed. I'm just wondering how important the TSG revelations are to relevance of Frey's memoir. To me it doesn't really matter if he has exagerated his toughness or criminal experience because he is writing about recovering from an addiction. If he had lied about being an addict and TSG had some proof of this, it would be a much more damaging expose. As it is, not so much.

For you and others here, this is apparently too much of a stretch. I am tempted to ask what you folks want from a recovery memoir, since this one seems to have left you all cold. I say tempted because I suspect people really don't have feelings about this one way or the other and that these comments are based entirely on the article at TSG. Perhaps here, too, I am being too harsh.

Rob, I don't mean to hang all of this above on you, but as a general comment to the board. It sounds like you, Rob, have strong feelings about the consistant application of the ficion and non-fiction labels. I suspect you are not alone with these feelings.

[Steve Canyon]

Steve, I think most of my comments have been in the vein of "this guy is a fucking terrible writer." That's not really a comment about the book persay; I could just as easily say that Dan Brown is a bad writer, and that's why I won't read his next book. You don't have to read every word someone has ever written to know that they're a good or bad writer.

Read those excerpts, Steve. That's just plain awful writing. I've literally read book reports written by eighth graders that are more eloquent and engaging.

That's fair, extarbags. To be honest, I had the same reaction to the book up to the 100 page mark. In addition to the questionable stylistic decisions, he's not very good at character work. I found myself flipping back to figure out who characters were. There is one person in the closing credits (the short section at the end that tells you what happened to everyone) I can't remeber at all. After 100 pages all the major characters have been introduced and it gets more compelling. What can I say? When I finished, my sum enjoyment was greater than the problems mentioned above.

[MatthewF]

For you and others here, this is apparently too much of a stretch. I am tempted to ask what you folks want from a recovery memoir, since this one seems to have left you all cold. I say tempted because I suspect people really don't have feelings about this one way or the other and that these comments are based entirely on the article at TSG. Perhaps here, too, I am being too harsh.
Well, I'd rather not go into much of my personal life on this, but suffice it to say I've had experience with recovery situations. The types of ideas that Frey uses in this book, according to the articles I've read, are just total nonsense. Therefore, it's not a recovery memoir, it's a fictional recovery story. I don't think he recovered from anything. I think he has a victim complex and exaggerates everything to create false bathos -- like that bit about local anesthesia. That sort of thing would scare the crap out of any recovering addict. I think it's deplorable for him to invent that kind of shit. See, this isn't just a harmless little memoir, this is something that Oprah and Frey himself want to be used as an inspiration to other recovering addicts. It's very likely that many people in recovery will look to this book for support and insight. And when you go around telling people that it's true and it isn't, there is most likely going to be all sorts of emotional and developmental damage being done to the readers who think it is. That's fucked up.

Possibly this is because he has shared so much of himself with me.
Shared so much of himself or shared so much of what he wants you to think of himself? I think you genuinely feel bad for the guy, but I don't think that feeling has been created by genuinity on his part. Aside from being unable to understand how you could possibly endure 400 pages of his ridiculous literary style, I still don't see how you could defend him now, knowing that what he wrote was false.

Also, based on the reviews on exile, this is how I'd summarize both of the books (set to the tune of the Itchy and Scratchy theme):

I hug,
and cry,
I hug and hug and cry,
hug and cry,
hug and cry,
the Oprah and James Frey shoooow!

[Steve Canyon]

I don't think he recovered from anything.

Nobody at TSG has suggested he is not an addict. Nobody has suggested he is still using drugs or alcohol. Why do you say this? If there were some proof of this, my opinion would change dramatically.

[MatthewF]

It's my personal feelings that this guy didn't really have enough of a problem to warrant full-on recovery and treatment time. I think he spent some time in AA and that's about it.

[Steve Canyon]

It's my personal feelings that this guy didn't really have enough of a problem to warrant full-on recovery and treatment time. I think he spent some time in AA and that's about it.

Ah, I see. What do you base this on? I assume it is just gut level feeling, but based one what? Media coverage? If that is true, why do you think that is fair?

[MatthewF]

Well, perhaps it is mostly gut, but from what I've read these are sorts of ideas that are disseminated in AA. The anesthesia thing rang particularly AA with me, as there are some hardcore AA sponsors that often encourage you to stay away from all types of pain medications, sometimes even tylenol, whereas a recovery center would never do that. It's kind of interesting because he probably heard that from someone in AA and thought it was true of all recovery treatment.

The reasoning that these hardcore guys use is that local anesthesia numbs the gums, an effect that cocaine users often get by rubbing it on their gums themselves or coughing up the dripdown. But this is far from mainstream treatment. Most people realize that there are limits to how far you should restrict yourself.

[Peter Frazier]

He's just lucky that the rehab clinic keeps its information confidential. Seriously, he's been caught out as a liar on all the things that could be accessed.

In other news, I realise now that I was had by Henri Charriere (http://tinyurl.com/c23ao) when I was a callow youth. Who would have thought that junkies and criminals would also be liars?

[Steve Canyon]

Well, perhaps it is mostly gut, but from what I've read these are sorts of ideas that are disseminated in AA. The anesthesia thing rang particularly AA with me, as there are some hardcore AA sponsors that often encourage you to stay away from all types of pain medications, sometimes even tylenol, whereas a recovery center would never do that. It's kind of interesting because he probably heard that from someone in AA and thought it was true of all recovery treatment.

Scry, here are two interesting points you may enjoy:

Unless it is an affect, Frey feels AA and all 12 Step programs are utterly worthless. He is very vocal about this throughout the book. The treatment center he describes is very 12 Step positive, but he is not. This is a central source of dramatic tension throughout the book.

I thought the dental work was the single most unbelievable aspect of the book. As it turns out, I have heard from someone in AA that they did this exact same thing during their own dental work. Blew me away. I have a very low threshhold for pain. It just goes to show that it is harder to seperate truth from fiction than you might think.

[Steve Canyon]

He's just lucky that the rehab clinic keeps its information confidential. Seriously, he's been caught out as a liar on all the things that could be accessed.

In other news, I realise now that I was had by Henri Charriere (http://tinyurl.com/c23ao) when I was a callow youth. Who would have thought that junkies and criminals would also be liars?

Er, Papilion was a hoax? I watched the mini-series, but didn't even realize he was a junkie. I thought he was a criminal in for life, but can't even remember his crime.

[Peter Frazier]

Well, i did type junkies and criminals, not junkie criminals.
What I'm saying is that Papillon would have been the centre of a similar contoversy if it had been released nowadays instead. A better story comes out of exaggeration but there is a difference between 'maybe our points of view were different' and outright lying.
Also, did he really claim to kill a priest?

[Steve Canyon]

did he really claim to kill a priest?

Not that I read in Million Little Pieces, but he does relate an attack on a priest.

[Ben]

I'll go back to the same well as my last post:

I started to read the TSG article but only read the first page and then scanned the others.

[quatoria]

Steve, I just want to make sure I'm correctly understanding your position. The Smoking Gun has gathered evidence that proves that Frey lied about, at bare minimum, parts of his past, in service of making himself look more authentic as a criminal and junkie, and your response is that, because they didn't prove that he lied about what happened in rehab, obviously it was all true? Or is it just that you don't care whether or not he's lying?

edit: Or is it that you're saying he just somehow 'misremembered' what crimes he was charged with, what the circumstances were, and what resulted from that? Because, I gotta tell you, Steve, I can't really imagine a situation in which I would actually forget what crimes I had been charged with by the police, barring severe and repeated head trauma.

[Steve Canyon]

I'll go back to the same well as my last post:

What is wrong with scanning? You'll never get through grad school if you can't scan.

[Wholly Schmidt]

Man, so there was gonna be a movie about this guy, and now there's not? Ryan Reynolds must be pissed.

[Steve Canyon]

Man, so there was gonna be a movie about this guy, and now there's not? Ryan Reynolds must be pissed.

Wait, you know it has been canceled? I haven't seen that in the press yet, although I haven't been looking too hard.

[Wholly Schmidt]

Wait, you know it has been canceled? I haven't seen that in the press yet, although I haven't been looking too hard.
Nah, just going on speculation, didn't mean to imply otherwise.

[Tom McNamara]

I thought the dental work was the single most unbelievable aspect of the book. As it turns out, I have heard from someone in AA that they did this exact same thing during their own dental work. Blew me away. I have a very low threshhold for pain. It just goes to show that it is harder to seperate truth from fiction than you might think.

I think you were fed a load of crap. The only justification for no meds while getting dental work in rehab is addictiveness -- but novocaine is not addictive. There is absolutely, positively no way you could endure a root canal without anesthesia. Even a 75% dose would have you ripping the arms off the chair. Ask a dentist. I've heard of painless methods with lasers, but the author claims to have been in unbelievable pain.

Really, this is the fulcrum of the argument for me, because such a patently outlandish claim makes the rest of his story suspect. To me, that's common sense.

[Steve Canyon]

I think you were fed a load of crap. The only justification for no meds while getting dental work in rehab is addictiveness -- but novocaine is not addictive. There is absolutely, positively no way you could endure a root canal without anesthesia. Even a 75% dose would have you ripping the arms off the chair. Ask a dentist. I've heard of painless methods with lasers, but the author claims to have been in unbelievable pain.

Someone else on the list has said that you hear of this sort of thing in AA all the time. I have an acquaintance that says she did without anesthesia during dental work becasue she is an alcoholic/addict. I felt the same as you when I read Frey's book. I wonder why the dental work was not part of the TSG article. I wonder why all these other people are saying this sort of thing happens in AA. If you had some sort of idea how to expalin any of this, your argument would be much stronger.

[Steve Canyon]

Steve, I just want to make sure I'm correctly understanding your position.

None of the choices you've offered capture my point. I'm not sure what more I can type to help you understand.

[Steve Canyon]

I just realized why Frey's book, with all of his huffing and puffing about how tough he is, seems so familiar. It's like reading some of the posters on this forum, who I am postive would not act like such tough guys in a real life setting. Ha, ha, ha. No wonder I was able to read the Frey book all the way through! I have been reading tough guys just like him for years now in P&R!

[Tom McNamara]

Someone else on the list has said that you hear of this sort of thing in AA all the time. I have an acquaintance that says she did without anesthesia during dental work becasue she is an alcoholic/addict. I felt the same as you when I read Frey's book. I wonder why the dental work was not part of the TSG article. I wonder why all these other people are saying this sort of thing happens in AA. If you had some sort of idea how to expalin any of this, your argument would be much stronger.

I'll say it again: The anesthesia is not addictive, and it is impossible to perform a root canal without it. You have either been lied to, or the patients misremembered the events, or there's something else going on. Steve. Dude. There is no freaking way. End of story.

[Bill Dungsroman]

Yeah, or the procedure without anes wasn't a root canal, it was like a filling.

[extarbags]

Yeah, or the procedure without anes wasn't a root canal, it was like a filling.

Or a cleaning, based on the way the rest of this is playing out.

[Bill Dungsroman]

Or a cleaning, based on the way the rest of this is playing out.

Heh. "I REFUSED ANESTHESIA FOR MY X-RAYS BECAUSE I AM A DRUG ADDICT AND I DON'T ROLL LIKE THAT."

[Wholly Schmidt]

Pffft, what a little girl. I don't even use anesthesia to brush my teeth. And I use that whitening toothpaste, that's how hardcore I am.

[extarbags]

Pffft, what a little girl. I don't even use anesthesia to brush my teeth. And I use that whitening toothpaste, that's how hardcore I am.

But do you floss? And use mouthwash? If you can do that shit without at least a perkoset, that's how you know you're tough.

[Jasper]

My grandmother had teeth pulled, and refused pain killers. Not sure if that'd hurt as much as having a root canal, but it wouldn't surprise me if my grandmother could have delt with it even so. People her age of necessity had to be tougher without such ready access to pain killers.

Americans today have a remarkably low tolerance for pain and dependence on drugs. When I had my wisdom teeth pulled out I was surprised they wanted to give me general anesthesia, and tylenol w/ codeine -- apparently most patients are happier risking their life and taking narcotics for no apparent reason.

[Bill Dungsroman]

My grandmother had teeth pulled, and refused pain killers. Not sure if that'd hurt as much as having a root canal, but it wouldn't surprise me if my grandmother could have delt with it even so. People her age of necessity had to be tougher without such ready access to pain killers.

How old was she? Were the teeth rotten? It would have hurt, but not as much as a root canal - about as much as it hurt to lose a tooth as a kid, more or less. Root canals, as the name implies, drill straight into the gum root for the tooth - you know, where the nerve is.


Americans today have a remarkably low tolerance for pain and dependence on drugs. When I had my wisdom teeth pulled out I was surprised they wanted to give me general anesthesia, and tylenol w/ codeine

You were having teeth pulled and you were surprised that you were offered painkillers? Your surprise is misplaced. Also, my hero.


-- apparently most patients are happier risking their life and taking narcotics for no apparent reason.

Pain, maybe? How did you manage this astounding leap of logic? IT'S CUZ I'M CLEAN BABY.

[Ben]

Wisdom teeth don't get "pulled" like you'd have a rotten or damaged tooth pulled. Removing impacted wisdom teeth is surgery. They cut open your gums and chisel at your jaw. No apparent reason?

[Glenn]

Root canals, as the name implies, drill straight into the gum root for the tooth - you know, where the nerve is.

The nerve that connects directly TO YOUR SOUL.

[Joel]

I've had the pleasure of feeling a few excruciating pains in my life and I can say on the whole that I have no desire to repeat any of them. I'm not sure what imaginary scenario refusing pain killers prepares you for, but I'm pretty much okay knowing that not having to feel each rotation of a 10k RPM drill as it burrs away at my exposed nerves means only that I might not be as hard as apocryphal rough-and-tumble frontier grandmothers. I mean, is there a life lesson I'm missing here? No pain, no gain?

Real, actual pain sucks. I'm glad that I won't have to feel as much of it as my ancestors, and I hope the kids I never intend on having feel even less.

[Jasper]

How old was she? Were the teeth rotten? It would have hurt, but not as much as a root canal - about as much as it hurt to lose a tooth as a kid, more or less. Root canals, as the name implies, drill straight into the gum root for the tooth - you know, where the nerve is.
No, it happened when she was younger and they weren't rotten as I recall, although it's a bit hard to double check now. Is drilling the root worse than yanking it? My experience with yanked nerves is that it's pure pain.

You were having teeth pulled and you were surprised that you were offered painkillers? Your surprise is misplaced. Also, my hero. I was surprised that I was offered general anesthesia -- which kills people every year -- when novocaine blocked all sensation of pain. I was surprised that I was offered codeine, when tylenol or advil alone was easily enough.

Pain, maybe? How did you manage this astounding leap of logic? IT'S CUZ I'M CLEAN BABY.Again, because the pain was easily dealt with without general anesthesia or narcotics.

[Jasper]

Wisdom teeth don't get "pulled" like you'd have a rotten or damaged tooth pulled. Removing impacted wisdom teeth is surgery. They cut open your gums and chisel at your jaw. No apparent reason?
Quite true. I'm sure it would have hurt quite a bit -- if I could feel anything in my mouth at all. Is it really worth a significant risk of death (e.g. my wife's stepfather died from general anesthesia) just so you don't have to watch/listen?

[Jasper]

Real, actual pain sucks. I'm glad that I won't have to feel as much of it as my ancestors, and I hope the kids I never intend on having feel even less.
Well, I'd argue that having a lower threshold of pain must be pretty annoying. The nice thing about having a high pain threshold is not that you get to feel lots of pain, but rather that most things just don't hurt -- the pain isn't there. If it does actually hurt alot, you can take pain medication without having developed a tolerance to it. I've had friends for whom over the counter drugs like Advil no longer did anything.

Anyway, this is all beside the point as I too think my grandma was over the top. I was just trying to give an example of there existing people who have far more pain tolerance than your average will-take-painkillers-for-papercuts American. I don't think it's at all clear that someone cannot undergo root canal without anesthesia. I have no idea who Frey is, and he could well be lying, but I don't see that as a necessary truth.

[Toddy]

I'm just amazed this thread has gone so far without anyone making a Marathon Man reference. So...

"Is it secret? Is it safe?"

[Bill Dungsroman]

No, it happened when she was younger and they weren't rotten as I recall, although it's a bit hard to double check now. Is drilling the root worse than yanking it? My experience with yanked nerves is that it's pure pain.

Then, why the Hell were they getting pulled? For kicks? You pretty much pull teeth if they are impacted or rotten, I believe. Either way, the pulling provides relief and if done properly, the process is meant to be failry quick. A root canal takes 30-45 minutes, and a significant portion of that timeframe is diddling your nerve ending.


I was surprised that I was offered general anesthesia -- which kills people every year -- when novocaine blocked all sensation of pain.

I don't disagree with you outright in terms of easy access to analgesics/anesthetics, but here's why: you want the gas, you sign the gas release form. No, that doesn't give you carte blanche to fart the National Anthem, but it does (presumably) serve as signed understanding of the (relatively small) dangers of genral anesthesia. Yes, gen anes might kill you. A shitty surgeon is more likely to kill you than the gas, and the gas doesn't make you constipated like codeine. Anyway, if you're down for the minimal risk (dentists will go for it more because of the big anxiety factor people have with dentistry, and they usually rake in the cash to cover the overhead of having to pay an anesthesiologist to administer it) and sign the informed consent paper, down you go - and down you go quickly, 99-98-9teesuhhhhh-breath. As opposed to you taking some painkillers either before the op (and forgetting, or whatever) or having to sit there in the chair after they give 'em to you in the office. And novocaine is groovy - ha ha, except for teh needel! I had a phrenectomy for my gap (which did jack shit for it but Hey, now I don't have a fucking frenulum under my upper lip, I can pull it up over my nose like a gurnsey contestant), they gave me three novo shots - one on each side of my upper gum, and one dead center in the gap. Yeah, ow. So, you know, lots of people figure if they died and went to Hell, it would be spending eternity in a dentist's chair as they prepare needles to stick in your mouth.


I was surprised that I was offered codeine, when tylenol or advil alone was easily enough.

Uh...well, okay. But since codeine is a schedule 2 drug, and docs can prescribe it without much fear of recourse or audit, why not give it? It's no more or less potentially harmful than Tylenol, but it ought to work better.


Again, because the pain was easily dealt with without general anesthesia or narcotics.

Because you can handle pain, and have little anxiety about dental visits. Others are not so fortunate. I guess you've never seen somebody spaz out over a dental trip.

[Sidd_Budd]

Is it really worth a significant risk of death (e.g. my wife's stepfather died from general anesthesia) just so you don't have to watch/listen?
You are correct that general anesthesia does carry additional complications, and I'm sorry that a member of your family died due to anesthesia. But there's a bit of hyperbole in your phrase "significant risk of death."

* Latest estimates of anesthesia-related mortality rates are 1/13000 across all patients (risks are much higher in older people already in poor health). Source: Lagasse, RS. (2002). Anesthesia Safety: Model or Myth?: A Review of the Published Literature and Analysis of Current Original Data, Anesthesiology, 97,1609-1617.
* U.S. mortality rates due to motor-vehicle injuries are 1/6375 (found in tables here (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hus/hus05.pdf#summary)).

If you were in a car on your trip to the oral surgeon, you exposed yourself to twice as much risk than you would have by accepting general anesthesia. It's your choice whether you want to be put under, of course, but for non-elderly people that don't have significant medical conditions, the risk of life-threatening problems related to general anesthesia seems low.

[Steve Canyon]

I'll say it again: [It] is impossible to perform a root canal without [anesthesia]. You have either been lied to, or the patients misremembered the events, or there's something else going on. Steve. Dude. There is no freaking way. End of story.

Based on what, Tom?

Ten seconds worth of googling offers some evidence that this happens more often than you think. Look, I'm as suprised as you. I'm no dentist. I haven't even read most of these pages, but it seems more presuasive than bolded text you're offering to support your claims.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&c2coff=1&rls=SUNA%2CSUNA%3A2005-51%2CSUNA%3Aen&q=%22root+canal%22+%22no+anesthesia%22&btnG=Search

If there is good evidence that the nerve is already dead, the patient may need NO anesthesia at all. (We do entire root canal treatments without any shots ...

... damage to the nerve of the tooth (which would require root canal) is gone. ... that 96% of all patients, both adults and children, required no anesthesia when the ...

[Jasper]

Then, why the Hell were they getting pulled? For kicks? You pretty much pull teeth if they are impacted or rotten, I believe.
I think for impacted teeth, which likely would have become rotten. I'm not sure since my grandma died of cancer a while back, but that's why I had a total of 8 healthy teeth pulled. All my teeth simply didn't fit in my mouth.

And novocaine is groovy - ha ha, except for teh needel! I had a phrenectomy for my gap, which did jack shit for it, but Hey, now I don't have a fucking frenulum under my upper lip, I can pull it up over my nose like a gurnsey contestant), they gave me three novo shots one on each side of my upper gum, and one dead center in the gap. Yeah, ow. So, you know, lots of people figure if they died and went to Hell, it would be spending eternity in a dentist's chair as they prepare needles to stick in your mouth.
The funny thing is that I hate needles, even watching someone else get an injection can put me into mild shock (get cold, slow heart rate, etc.). Worse, it apparently takes more novocaine for me than most patients, so more shots. The Worst ones are into the roof of the mouth; not as bad as a well pulled nerve, but close.

Uh...well, okay. But since codeine is a schedule 2 drug, and docs can prescribe it without much fear of recourse or audit, why not give it? It's no more or less potentially harmful than Tylenol, but it ought to work better.I guess I don't really know much about codeine then. I'd thought of it as a pretty strong morphine like drug, with the potential for addiction, etc.

Because you can handle pain, and have little anxiety about dental visits. Others are not so fortunate. I guess you've never seen somebody spaz out over a dental trip.
True, despite lots of trips to the dentist (braces, pulled teeth, binator, retainer) I don't have such anxiety, despite my extreme distaste for needles.

It probably doesn't help that dentists always seem to have a chilling name: I've known Failing, Paine, and Wrench.

[Jasper]

You are correct that general anesthesia does carry additional complications, and I'm sorry that a member of your family died due to anesthesia. But there's a bit of hyperbole in your phrase "significant risk of death."

* Latest estimates of anesthesia-related mortality rates are 1/13000 across all patients (risks are much higher in older people already in poor health). Source: Lagasse, RS. (2002). Anesthesia Safety: Model or Myth?: A Review of the Published Literature and Analysis of Current Original Data, Anesthesiology, 97,1609-1617.
* U.S. mortality rates due to motor-vehicle injuries are 1/6375 (found in tables here (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hus/hus05.pdf#summary)).

That's lower than I thought, though it's still unnecessary risk.

If you were in a car on your trip to the oral surgeon, you exposed yourself to twice as much risk than you would have by accepting general anesthesia. It's your choice whether you want to be put under, of course, but for non-elderly people that don't have significant medical conditions, the risk of life-threatening problems related to general anesthesia seems low.
You're comparing apples and oranges -- the numbers don't say that. According to those numbers one general anesthesia carries as much risk as roughly half a year of driving, which I believe is one of the leading causes of death in the US.

[shift6]

Then, why the Hell were they getting pulled? For kicks? You pretty much pull teeth if they are impacted or rotten, I believe.
My mouth is "crowded" according to the dentist, so they pulled two teeth from my upper jaw (one on each side, right behind the eye teeth) to make room for normal development. These were adult teeth, BTW, not baby teeth. Then on went the braces. Just as an example on why else teeth may be pulled.

I live with a particular pain which is completely excruciating at times (not in my mouth; unrelated to the above). About once a month I am incapable of comfortably doing anything for about 8-10 hours, and end up just laying down on the couch or something and waiting for it to pass; for the first few years it was 4-5 times a week. I've had it for about five years now, no doc's been able to help. But in the meantime, my pain tolerance for other things is much higher. I've accidently done retarded little things like snip the top of my ear with scissors when trimming my hair, rolled over my foot with a loaded pallet jack when I worked at Staples, etc. and the pain from those amounts to no more than a medium ache. I give blood every three months or so and the huge needle in the arm (sometimes both if they have trouble finding a vein on the left)? Nothing. I just don't easily get sharp, stinging, or shooting pains.

The other half of a high pain tolerance is that I don't pop pills for most "normal" aches and pains. So when I do something that really hurts bad like throwing out my back in the gym or something, three regular advils shuts it right up for a good 12 hours. Very nice. It's like not going out to the bar every night: when you do go somewhere with the crew, it only takes like three Coronas to make you feel just fine.

[Sidd_Budd]

You're comparing apples and oranges -- the numbers don't say that. According to those numbers one general anesthesia carries as much risk as roughly half a year of driving, which I believe is one of the leading causes of death in the US.
OK, you got me -- I was guilty of snarky hyberbole myself with the implication that a single car trip was twice the risk of the medical procedure. So let's take a closer look at what the numbers do say.

As I said earlier, risk of anesthesia-related mortality is higher in patients who have existing health conditions. The study I referenced in my last post used ASA Physical Status (a 5 point scale, with higher numbers indicating more complications) to determine risk. Let's assume our hypothetical dental patient is in the ASA range of 1 to 3 (ranging from good to moderate health), representing 93% of the patients undergoing anesthetic procedures in the study. As an anchor, ASA 3 represents patients who can walk a flight of stairs or two city blocks, but will have to stop to rest during the exertion.

* Anesthesia-related mortality rates in this subsample were 0.4 per 10,000 (or 1/24535) procedures, about half the risk I quoted for the entire data set in my earlier post.
* A recent annual motor vehicle mortality rate is 1.57 per 10,000 (or 1/6375) U.S. population.
* Motor vehicle mortality is 3.85 times higher (1.57/.4) than anesthetic-related mortality.

Consider the following paragraph.
General anesthesia carries some risk of death. For patients in good or moderate health, this risk is roughly equal to the chance you will be killed in a motor vehicle accident in the next three months. On average, one out of 24500 patients in good or moderate health die due to anesthetic complications.
This paragraph is accurate and justified by the numbers. It is my belief that most people, upon hearing this statement, would not claim that anesthesia is a "significant" risk of death.

For the record, I'm not trying to change your mind, Jasper. You've clearly stated your preference for local rather than general anesthetic, and you are correct that general anesthetic carries more risk. But there probably are lurkers to this thread, and I want them to know the magnitude of additional risk. I think you are overstating the severity of the problem, which I'd probably do as well if I had lost someone close to me due to it. I had teeth pulled twice as an adolescent/young adult, and had local for the first and general for the second. I had more pain and discomfort associated with the local procedure, and barring the development of a chronic health problem, would definitely choose general again in the future.

By the way, motor vehicle accidents are the 9th leading cause of death in the U.S. (Google "CDC causes of death"), accounting for 1.8% of all deaths. I think you could get different ideas about the significance of accidents depending on which statistic you present (9th sounds "bigger" to me than 1.8%).

[Nick Walter]

I'd just like to comment that as someone who is facing the removal of four wisdom teeth in the near future, this thread has given me lots of warm fuzzy feelings.

I'm going to opt for the GA by the way. I have a high pain tolerance (I think) but I get a little psychotic about dentists and it would be best if I was too drugged up to punch anyone.

[Bill Dungsroman]

I think for impacted teeth, which likely would have become rotten. I'm not sure since my grandma died of cancer a while back, but that's why I had a total of 8 healthy teeth pulled. All my teeth simply didn't fit in my mouth.


The funny thing is that I hate needles, even watching someone else get an injection can put me into mild shock (get cold, slow heart rate, etc.). Worse, it apparently takes more novocaine for me than most patients, so more shots. The Worst ones are into the roof of the mouth; not as bad as a well pulled nerve, but close.

Yeah. I believe I got one in the roof, too, for that stupid phrenectomy. I dunno, I just know I had stitches running from just behind my upper lip all the way to my soft palate. They may very well put people under for that op (if they even do it anymore) these days. In my day...!


I guess I don't really know much about codeine then. I'd thought of it as a pretty strong morphine like drug, with the potential for addiction, etc.

You may be confusing it with oxycontin, which is fairly potent stuff. Codeine is like Vicodin or Lortab. It'll buzz you alittle and help you snooze out when you're feeling punky, but it's nothing close to morphine.


True, despite lots of trips to the dentist (braces, pulled teeth, binator, retainer) I don't have such anxiety, despite my extreme distaste for needles.

It probably doesn't help that dentists always seem to have a chilling name: I've known Failing, Paine, and Wrench.

Ha ha, yeah. I used to know a Dr. Killgore.

[Raife]

I'd just like to comment that as someone who is facing the removal of four wisdom teeth in the near future, this thread has given me lots of warm fuzzy feelings.

I'm going to opt for the GA by the way. I have a high pain tolerance (I think) but I get a little psychotic about dentists and it would be best if I was too drugged up to punch anyone.

In that case, here's a little anecdote for you. I still had my wisdom teeth when I enlisted, and the US Army decided that they had to go. They weren't impacted, and my teeth were straight. I guess it was part of the War on Teeth of the Bush, Sr. administration.

The thing about military medical care is that, while it is free, you don't ever want to be in a position to have to use it. I could tell you some stories, but since I already am, that'll wait. Anyway, I get in there, they strap me in the chair, and don't waste any time. I don't remember what they gave me for pain, but I was definitely conscious and aware.

17 minutes to pull all four teeth, and they congratulated each other on a new record. Man, I saw chunks of tooth flying all over the room. I don't know how standard it is, but they apparently decided that they had to cut each tooth into parts and then pull the sections. Must be faster that way, or at least more fun. When the tooth chunks weren't flying out of my mouth, they were being pulled out with wonderful looking quasi-medical instruments. Half a root here, a sheared off cross section of a tooth there, you get the picture. Beautiful stuff.

I got 48 hours off, and a bottle of Percocet that I didn't take (and a friend of mine kept trying to buy off of me until I flushed them).

Have a happy tooth extraction.

[Sidd_Budd]

My general anesthesia experience -- getting my four wisdom teeth removed my senior year of high school in preparation for braces -- is much less thrilling than Raife's.

A nice lady put a mask over my nose and mouth and told me to breathe deeply. I inhaled twice, and said, "I don't think it's affecting me. I feel pretty..."

I woke up at home with cotton stuffed in my mouth and some nice pills to take for the discomfort. My dad figured I was OK when I asked him to call the surgeon to see if they had disposed of my teeth fragments yet; I wanted to wear them as a necklace. To think I couldn't figure out why I wasn't popular with the girls at school.

My dad said the oral surgeon had disposed of them (I suspect he actually didn't call), but it was alright because the cute waitresses at the restaurant where I was a busboy all smuggled me drinks from the bar because they felt sorry for me. I kept the tooth necklace plan to myself around them.

Best of luck to you on the procedure, Nick. Wear a seat belt!

[Ben]

The best part of wisdom tooth removal is the jawmuffs you get to put icepacks in and wear around your head looking as ridiculous as possible.


Oh, and the antibiotic pills they give you smell terrible. That's what I remember from my wisdom tooth removal.

[BobJustBob]

I'd just like to comment that as someone who is facing the removal of four wisdom teeth in the near future, this thread has given me lots of warm fuzzy feelings.

I'm going to opt for the GA by the way. I have a high pain tolerance (I think) but I get a little psychotic about dentists and it would be best if I was too drugged up to punch anyone.

After I had my wisdom teeth removed, I got a week's prescription of hydrocodone. Best damn week of my life, no lie. Magic pills.

[Joel]

Since we're swapping stories of bad moments in dentistry, I'll chime in with this: My oral surgeon, who pumped me full of delicious GA, had his office on the second floor. No elevators.

My mom said she had to basically carry two-and-change me down to the car over her shoulder.

[Steve Canyon]

Not much to tell about my wisdom teeth extraction story. They took out all four. I got an IV started, they had me count backwards from ten, and I remember feeling proud that I made it all the way to one. I asked what I should do. Someone shouted into the room, "Count it again!"

Next thing I remember was asking when we were going to get started and them telling me we were all done.

I got ice cream and codine for the next few days. Felt good. Would do it again.

[Squirrel Killer]

Well if this is going to turn into a "listen to this..." thread, I'd be remiss if I didn't share mine...

My first job that covered dental insurance offered two plans, one that didn't cover as much but offered virtually any dentist, the other covered pretty much everything but only offered a couple of dentists. Having gone without dental care for a while and so as to preperation for my nuptials, I chose the latter and ended up with Dr. Reggie, sheepskin barely dry.

The initial visits go pretty well, and we determine that I'm probably going to need two root canals and the wisdom teeth are going to need to go eventually, but really one one root canal needs to be done pre-wedding. First visit, hour in the chair, pain fairly bad, but managable. Second visit, hour and a half in the chair, and my shirt is ruined by bleach, pain comparatively light. Third visit, another hour, pain excruciating. Fourth visit, another hour and a half, light pain except for a couple of gotchas. At least it was done.

Shortly after this marathon, my future in-laws host a shower for us, and by chance I get seated next to a fairly prominent dentist in the area, my fiancee asks him how is practice is doing, and he mentions that he's down to half-time and is actually doing a lot of teaching at a nearby university. The same university that Dr. Reggie graduated from. So I mention my torturer to him, and he leans back, whistles, and says, "Ohhhhh, Reggie.... I probably shouldn't say anything more about Reggie."

Later, armed with a decent dental plan, I tackled the second root canal with an endodontist, who was done in one 45 minute sitting with absolutely no pain and no shirts ruined. Oh, and my current dentist? Same school and class as Dr. Reggie, but has managed to not ruin a single shirt.

As for the wisdom teeth, GA all the way baby. Why? Because the previous two times I had tried to have them yanked, I had a full on yellow-tailed, girly hissy fit due to the needles.

[Chris Nahr]

I got my four wisdom teeth removed as a kid because they wouldn't fit in my mouth. At the time they had not even broken through the gums, so they literally had to be cut out of my mouth. My parents went with local anaesthesia which actually worked rather well as far as suppressing pain is concerned... but I still remember ominous *crunch* and *crack* sounds reverberating through my skull as the dentist yanked out my teeth. That's an experience you don't want to miss, Nick!

[quatoria]

Favorite part of my wisdom tooth extraction was when they nicked a vein or something, as an assistant was passing by outside the room, and the nurse had to get up and run out to catch her as she started to feint from catching sight of the blood spraying from my mouth (albeit very briefly).

Worst dental experience, since we seem to be comparing them? When I was in middle school, towards the end, we had a family dentist who we'd been using for years. He was a good guy, great, uh, chairside manner, and always did fantastic work. Until that year, when all the positive word of mouth snowballed, and he was packed with patients constantly. I don't know if it was greed or debt pressure or something else, but his attidue changed to 'get 'em in and get 'em out as fast as possible.' This paid a wonderful dividend for me, personally, when a filling that he had done fell out, because he failed to drill out all of the cavity, and it had continued to spread, unbeknownest to me (until the filling came out in a tuna fish sandwich), consuming most of the tooth. When I went in for the replacement of the filling, understandably irate, the dental machinery was in full swing. I saw him for something like two minutes before we got down to business. The pleasant manner was gone, of course, and he seemed distincly displeased to be forced to fix his own work.

He asked if I 'wanted' anesthetic. This came as a surprise to me, as I'd never been offered a choice before, in one of these procedures. It just always came standard. I asked, rather naively, how much he thought it would hurt. He replied, "It will feel like this," and then started drilling. I made it through the procedure, but came out mad as hell, and really, really feeling like I should have punched the bastard. So, yeah - last time we went to that dentist.

[Nick Walter]

He asked if I 'wanted' anesthetic. This came as a surprise to me, as I'd never been offered a choice before, in one of these procedures. It just always came standard. I asked, rather naively, how much he thought it would hurt. He replied, "It will feel like this," and then started drilling. I made it through the procedure, but came out mad as hell, and really, really feeling like I should have punched the bastard. So, yeah - last time we went to that dentist.

Legal issues aside I believe it is ethically permissible to slug a dentist in that circumstance. Anything short of maiming won't stain your soul.

[Tom McNamara]

Based on what, Tom?

Ten seconds worth of googling offers some evidence that this happens more often than you think. Look, I'm as suprised as you. I'm no dentist. I haven't even read most of these pages, but it seems more presuasive than bolded text you're offering to support your claims.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&c2coff=1&rls=SUNA%2CSUNA%3A2005-51%2CSUNA%3Aen&q=%22root+canal%22+%22no+anesthesia%22&btnG=Search

1) Frey experienced terrible pain.
2) Therefore, your Google results are not relevant.
2b) Your links refer to laser surgery and dead nerve endings.
2c) I never said that painless methods do not exist.
2d) I did not mention them because they were not relevant.
3) Since Frey was in pain, he was not using a painless method.
3b) Therefore, your Google results are not relevant.

[Steve Canyon]

Tom, you must admit you've offered little but your own disbelief to convince me it's impossible to have root canal without anestesia. All I've offered is anacdotal evidence, a few differing points of view from this very thread, and ten seconds worth of googling, but even this meger offering is more than you can muster.

[Steve Canyon]

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=alcoholics+refuse+pain+medication&btnG=Google+Search

More results that indicate refusing pain medication isn't as shocking as some might think. Although I don't think I could ever refuse pain medication, I am awed by people who can. Not sure of the wisdom involved, but what steely dispositions!

[Flowers]

I've had some drilling done where the novocaine did not have an effect. It hurt, it's not unbearable, but it's not not worth it.

My dentist kicks ass though, we acted out the scene from Marathon Man once.

[Jasper]

Awesome. I'm glad I brought up my grandma's dental adventures, as these stories are hilarious. :-)

[Jasper]

Ha ha, yeah. I used to know a Dr. Killgore.Nice, that's better than any of mine. A friend of mine had Dr. April Love.

All you guys sharing your dental stories without giving the dentist's name are remiss. I'll be dissapointed if they're ordinary names (my current dentist is plain old Gerken), but post 'em anyway!

[Jasper]

Third visit, another hour, pain excruciating.
You felt pain during the operation? Yah, it was probably a good idea you found a new dentist. ;-)

[Tom McNamara]

Tom, you must admit you've offered little but your own disbelief to convince me it's impossible to have root canal without anestesia. All I've offered is anacdotal evidence, a few differing points of view from this very thread, and ten seconds worth of googling, but even this meger offering is more than you can muster.

How about this bit of business:

"I have worked with alcoholics and addicts for many, many years, and I worked for the Hazelden Foundation, the treatment program the author indicates he attended. His description of the events in treatment never could have happened. All treatment centers are strictly regulated by a licensing board called the Joint Commission as well by state laws. What James Frey describes is in gross violation of these strict standards of accreditation. The treatment center would have been severely disciplined or shut down. Hazelden is one of the finest treatment centers in the world and is the pioneer of treatment as we know it today. Their treatment program is centered on respecting the dignity of each patient and preserving the safety of all who are admitted.

"James Frey would not have been admitted into treatment in such terrible medical condition without first being sent to a hospital for care and then admitted only after the hospital staff granted medical clearance. He wouldn't have been given stitches in his face at the treatment center, because treatment centers aren't licensed to give that level of medical care. Yes, recovering people can use anesthetic. Anesthetic is not an addictive drug, so no one needs to endure painful dental work or stitches or surgery without masking the pain. Pain medications (which are addictive) are used when necessary, such as after major surgery.

"There are no men in white coats with syringes tackling people who misbehave. People in treatment don't behave in ways the author describes. People are mostly kind, caring and thoughtful. Disagreements are generally mild in nature, and mood-swings are usually the worst we must contend with. When someone behaves in an unacceptable manner, they are asked to change their behavior or be discharged. Treatment romances are never tolerated because they are a precursor to relapse and disrupt the entire unit. Physical violence always results in discharge, as does destruction of property. A patient would be asked to leave immediately if he destroyed a room full of furniture, for example. (Accomplishing this feat, by the way, would be extremely difficult because the furniture is made of heavy wood, built for endurance.)

"The author's assertion that a doctor left the ER without treating him and then drove him to an airport is equally astonishing. Putting a patient on an airplane, where he cannot access emergency medical care while suffering from severe head injuries is unthinkable. That the airlines allowed James Frey on the plane is impossible to believe. These things simply aren't allowed to happen for very obvious and good reasons.

"It goes without saying that counselors don't drive patients to crack houses-or anywhere else-while they are in treatment. Doing so would result in immediate dismissal. Never have I heard people screaming in detox, nor would someone be left lying on a floor overnight. Patients are well monitored and vitals are checked on a regular basis to be certain that blood pressure isn't dangerously high due to the body coming off alcohol and/or drugs. Without close monitoring, we would risk strokes or heart attacks. It is also surprising that almost everyone the author went through treatment with has died or disappeared in rather unorthodox ways. I've never know of this to happen and none of my colleagues, whom I've asked, have ever heard of this either. We sometimes hear that one individual out of a treatment group dies, but even that is fairly rare. People do relapse after treatment, but that happens primarily because people don't follow their aftercare plan.

"I hope if you read this book, you will keep in mind that this description of treatment is fiction. No one who is thinking of going into treatment to seek help should be afraid, thinking they will experience things similar to what the author has described. All reputable treatment centers offer caring support, preserve patients' dignity and will not allow one person's behavior jeopardize the wellbeing of all others. As for the author's assertion that he has stayed sober without the help of AA or other 12 step groups, that may be true, but only about 2% of addicted people find this method successful. And of that 2%, most continue to behave in much the same way they did when they were drinking or using drugs, only without the alcohol or drugs in their systems. Sometimes they are so unhappy and angry being "dry" because, without a recovery program, they haven't learned to find contentment in sobriety, and their behavior becomes more intolerable than before. The main purpose of AA isn't just to quit drinking or taking drugs, but to become a better person in recovery."

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/1400031087/ref=cm_rev_next/104-1573251-5335130?%5Fencoding=UTF8&customer-reviews.sort%5Fby=-SubmissionDate&n=507846&s=books&customer-reviews.start=261


"I actually finished this book about 2 weeks ago. Sorry to jump on the band wagon this late in the game. I work in the addictions field. While reading this book, I never comtemplated the author's legal issues as being truthful or untruthful. I did however, find his story of his treatment to be quite unbelievable. First, what rang false for me was the author's depiction of the emergency dental care under the watchful eye of the unnamed treatment facility we know now to be Hazelden. As an addictions' treatment professional with 20 years experience, I cannot for the life of me fathom why a dentist was prohibited from using novacaine to treat some serious injuries and HOW a dentist agreed to that. What treatment center would make that a condition of allowing their patients to receive adequate dental care? Novacaine is NOT addictive. It is not mood-altering. It is not, as some would believe, related to cocaine. Second: Hazelden has the reputation of being a pretty expensive facility which offers good, thorough treatment. According to Mr. Frey's book, there was a sorry lack of true treatment professionals coupled with a lack of structure. There are scenes depicted in the book when counselors felt free to share private patient information with the other patients (a violation of a federal law, by the way). This facility was apparantly a place where patients were allowed to have private, catered parties, leave the facility frequently for romantic trysts, and go on rescue missions to the local crack house (accompanied by Hazelden staff !!???). All with staff knowledge. Sorry, that just didn't happen.

"I understand that ALL treatment programs are flawed. It is a fact of life and a factor in helping addicts to receive adequate help."

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/1400031087/ref=cm_rev_next/104-1573251-5335130?%5Fencoding=UTF8&customer-reviews.sort%5Fby=-SubmissionDate&n=507846&s=books&customer-reviews.start=61


"I just finished frey's book. I am a recovering alcoholic and addict and I am AFRAID of how much power frey's book could have on the popular conception of addiction.
Frey pretends to have a gritty, no-nonsense, street-wise approach to his addiction. This attitude is what gets addicts killed and keeps them in their disease. While Frey's "don't mess with me I'll beat you up" attitude may have worked for him, it DOES NOT work for anyone else I have ever ever EVER met in recovery. Frey is a trust fund kid who spent daddy's money on drugs and hookers and then went to an expensive private rehab where mommy and daddy footed the bill once again.

I have been to the bottom of bottoms...I almost died from my addiction at 25. I also have been to private rehab which bore almost ZERO resemblance to Frey's dream world rehab; " There are rules here, wait, there are no rules here, wait, I'm going to do whatever I want even though this place costs 1,000 dollars a day...let's have a catered dinner and get the staff to buy us pay-per-view" YEAH RIGHT. I almost want to call Hazelden and tell them to sue him."

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/1400031087/ref=cm_rev_next/104-1573251-5335130?%5Fencoding=UTF8&customer-reviews.sort%5Fby=-SubmissionDate&n=507846&s=books&customer-reviews.start=191


Conveniently, Hazelden can't speak out against Frey's depiction, because of doctor-patient confidentiality. Since they have said nothing, he must have been in rehab there, or else they could and would refute Frey's account outright. I don't deny that he went to rehab. But it sound like Frey's version is a ridiculous fantasy.

[Steve Canyon]

How about this bit of business:

My only point is that refusing pain meds isn't as inconceivable as I originally thought. You have added more anecdotal evidence to the heap already before us, but I'm not sure any of this demonstrates that people never have oral surgery without pain meds.

[Steve Canyon]

There are like 1121 feedback on Amazon about Frey's book. I wonder if that is a record? I wish it were a poll so we could see at a glance what everyone thinks.

My guess: shit bonerz! for the win.

[Tom McNamara]

My only point is that refusing pain meds isn't as inconceivable as I originally thought. You have added more anecdotal evidence to the heap already before us, but I'm not sure any of this demonstrates that people never have oral surgery without pain meds.

I never said that people don't recieve oral surgery without pain meds. I said that the root canal procedure that Frey depicts is impossible without pain meds.

And what I added is not generic anecdotal evidence. Please go over it more carefully. I am specifically targeting Hazelden and Frey's surgery, with one account that directly disputes the very nature of Frey's experience.

And I must ask, respectfully: Why are you clinging so hard to this? The book really is incrediby flimsy on the face of it. What has Frey done to earn the benefit of the doubt? Nothing, in my mind.

[Steve Canyon]

Tom, I already answered those questions. I read the expose at TSG and didn't see the dental surgery mentioned, which suprised me. I was also suprised to hear from friends and other posters that some people forgo pain meds in similar circumstances, which I never would have guessed.

I am not too concerened with whether Frey's experence is accurate (we've seen enough to indicate it may not) as to whether it is in the realm of possiblity. Sorry if that hasn't been clear.

I wonder what dentists in the old days did with their root canal patients. As I said, I'm no dentist. Is root canal a modern procedure? Is it absolutely inconceivable that you would have this done without pain meds?

[Rywill]

And I must ask, respectfully: Why are you clinging so hard to this?
Dude, you are arguing with the guy who spent like ten pages arguing about whether it was ok for a video store clerk to call the customer about an overdue porno. Accept the fact that you will never win. He is inexhaustable.

"It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead."

[Steve Canyon]

Dude, you are arguing with the guy who spent like ten pages arguing about whether it was ok for a video store clerk to call the customer about an overdue porno. Accept the fact that you will never win. He is inexhaustable.

"It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead."

Oh, stop. You make it sound like a horror movie. :)

[Mister Widget]

1) This thread makes me very glad I've never needed any kind of major dental procedure.

2) Every quote I've seen from Frey's book is so atrociously written that I can't imagine ever reading it. That's not a review; it's my reaction to the quotes from the book. Fat beavers... oooookay. As far as the suggestion that "it must be good because it's a bestseller", does that even really require refutation? Frey's book won't be the first piece of garbage to make the bestseller lists, and it won't be the last.

3) Bonus points to Rywill for quoting Reese.

[Tom McNamara]

Dude, you are arguing with the guy who spent like ten pages arguing about whether it was ok for a video store clerk to call the customer about an overdue porno. Accept the fact that you will never win. He is inexhaustable.

I'd wish I'd known that before I got into this preposterous back-and-forth.

[Unicorn McGriddle]

Elhajj? Why? Don't you have enough accounts here already? Let's see, Bull, Tim Elhajj, T Elhajj... am I missing any?

Should we all do this? Make a fighter pilot account? I'm not sure what my fighter pilot name should be. Every time I try to think of one, it sounds more like a porn name to me. Is that how it's supposed to be?

P.S. -- Frey sucks. Long live The Exile. And the porn store clerk is not under any obligation of confidentiality when calling your number because you have something overdue.

[Steve Canyon]

Elhajj? Why? Don't you have enough accounts here already? Let's see, Bull, Tim Elhajj, T Elhajj... am I missing any?


There is a rumor I am Unicorn McGriddle!

[Steve Canyon]

I'd wish I'd known that before I got into this preposterous back-and-forth.

I like to think reasonable people can disagree on something like this, but if you feel it's preposterous then you should quit. You haven't really been able to offer much beyond simply repeating the same thing.

[MatthewF]

I like to think reasonable people can disagree on something like this, but if you feel it's preposterous then you should quit. You haven't really been able to offer much beyond simply repeating the same thing.
To be fair, neither have you.

[Ed Solomon]

I'm not sure what my fighter pilot name should be. Every time I try to think of one, it sounds more like a porn name to me. Is that how it's supposed to be?
It depends. If a Jerry Bruckheimer/Top Gun fighter pilot name, it should totally sound like a porn name. In fact, for Bruckheimer, the more homoerotic the better.

You can be Jester or Maverick but I've already called dibs on Viper.

[Steve Canyon]

To be fair, neither have you.

Scry feels I may be guilty of repeating the same opinion, but I don't think that's completely fair portayal of the situation.

I started this thread becasue I found the issue of truth in memoir fascinating and wanted to hear what other people thought. If I've repeated myself, it's to get the conversation back on track. I may have been stubborn with the dental work, but it's only because I was so sure it was fake when I originally read it, and now there seems to be some evidence of people actually behaving this way. I'm not sure that it matters it's a controversial practice in AA circles as Tom seems to point out; that it's a practice at all is enough to surprise me.

As for the bigger issue of truth in memoir, I realize some people are going to want to evaluate things narrowly and expect a dogmatic listing of events. I don't think that's necessary or helpful. The idea is to write an engaging and authentic account of your expereince. Mary Karr is quoted as blasting Frey for his indiscretions, but she is on record as making up all of the tall tales her father tells in her memoir, Liar's Club. Personally I don't have a probelm with either for all the reasons I've already mentioned.

[Mark Asher]

I don't see a memoir was blurring the distinction between fiction and nonfiction at all, but more of a personal retelling of your experience and/or biography. There's nothing in the definition that I know of or anything in the way of "non-fiction" that tells me that I have to blazenly lie about my experiences to make them sound better.

I have no problem at all calling it literary fraud - given the state of facts currently.

--- Alan

Yeah, since when did memoirs become vehicles for making up stuff that never happened? The only latitude this kind of writing enjoys is the necessary recreation of dialog if you're having dialog in your memoir. I think readers understand that no one remembers conversations verbatim so the details won't be accurate, though the spirit should be.

Guy should have just sold it as a novel. Of course no one would have been interested....

[Gav]

I had a similar discussion (about truth in memoir) with my father-in-law a couple of months back. His memoir was just published, and it has a lot of endnotes (about 20 pages of endnotes to 160 pages of actual memoir).

When I mentioned that the number of endnotes seemed odd to me for a memoir, he said that most memoirs are just this side of fiction, and, as a historian, he wanted to make sure his was actually accurate. In fact, he said that if he hadn't been able to find the supporting documents he'd never have written the book.

So that's pretty much the extreme end of the "memoirs should be as truthful as possible" school of thought.

Gav

[Tom McNamara]

I like to think reasonable people can disagree on something like this, but if you feel it's preposterous then you should quit. You haven't really been able to offer much beyond simply repeating the same thing.

If it pleases me to quit, then I will, thank you very much.

[Steve Canyon]

Yeah, since when did memoirs become vehicles for making up stuff that never happened? The only latitude this kind of writing enjoys is the necessary recreation of dialog if you're having dialog in your memoir. I think readers understand that no one remembers conversations verbatim so the details won't be accurate, though the spirit should be.


Ok, well that's a fair position--that dialogue is the only latitude you get for this kind of writing. Most people who feel this book is a fraud take this position. I think people are also willing to also forgive minor chronological discrepancies, too, as long as there are no plot points that hang on an accurate chronology.

I’m not saying its okay to pretend you’re an addict because you know that recovery stories are hot this year. But I think if you want to show that something has gone so dreadfully wrong with your life that you need to be locked up into rehab one way you might do that is with all the fantastic stories that Frey tells. As I read it, I kept thinking that he was creating some sort of unreliable narrator, that sooner or later he would come to his senses and allow us, the readers, in on the joke. But it never happens! Although I certainly questioned a lot of what he wrote, I am pretty sure he believes it. He is a legend in his own mind! That is exactly how he presents himself to the people he meets in treatment. And that is how—ten years later—he presents himself to the people who read his book. Hence, it seems authentic, if not entirely accurate.

Everyone seems to be juding him so harshly, but what can you ask when someone shares their story? I'm not sure a chronological list of events is going to be enough to tell every story. You can’t really share your life experience with a chronological list of events. I’m not saying Frey is an honest person, but you don’t really get the impression he is an honest person reading his book. This is why he is being investigated by TSG! It seems like there should be a story here. This is why so many people have asked him this past year, Is this account true? You get the impression reading it that it's not true. I would be appalled if writers went out and started to create memoir based on what they thought would sell very well. But I'm not so sure Frey did this book thinking it would become so popular. It seems more likely that he just did the best he could, for the kind of person he is, and this is what came out.

Anyway, my two cents.

[Steve Canyon]

If it pleases me to quit, then I will, thank you very much.

I got him now Rywill! :)

[Steve Canyon]

I had a similar discussion (about truth in memoir) with my father-in-law a couple of months back. His memoir was just published, and it has a lot of endnotes (about 20 pages of endnotes to 160 pages of actual memoir).


And I don't mean to make it sound like you can't tell a good story with a chronological list of events, Gav. I bet 20 pages of end notes fits your father-in-law. I am just saying that it takes all kinds. I am just glad that most people don't feel the need to document the veracity of their stories, or even worse, give up without even trying because they don't have enough supporting documentation. We would lose a lot of good stories that way.

People evaluate the credibility of stories even if they're reading fiction. What would have been more sinister was for Frey to tell a story that seemed more believable but was just as much fiction.

[Unicorn McGriddle]

In fact, for Bruckheimer, the more homoerotic the better.

You can be Jester or Maverick but I've already called dibs on Viper.

In that case, I'll just stick with Unicorn. Unicorns are pretty gay.

[Bill Dungsroman]

In that case, I'll just stick with Unicorn. Unicorns are pretty gay.

I found you a friend (http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showthread.php?p=552976&highlight=unicorns#post552976). I was going to quote that text, but I can't figure out how to make it pink.

[Raife]

I found you a friend (http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showthread.php?p=552976&highlight=unicorns#post552976). I was going to quote that text, but I can't figure out how to make it pink.

I think Cookiepants had that beat in this thread (http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showthread.php?t=3507).

[Bill Dungsroman]

There's a lot of dead motherfuckers in that thread.

[Ed Solomon]

Unicorns are pretty gay.That they are.

But you have to ask yourself: are they gay enough?

[Raife]

There's a lot of dead motherfuckers in that thread.

Lot of dead motherfuckers everywhere.

[extarbags]

In that case, I'll just stick with Unicorn. Unicorns are pretty gay.

http://www.randomimage.us/files/41a191d97a136.jpg

[Ed Solomon]

http://www.randomimage.us/files/41a191d97a136.jpg
Tease!

[Chris Nahr]

Maybe this link (http://www.randomimage.us/index.php?img_id=21294) works?

[Unicorn McGriddle]

The Perry Bible Fellowship is wicked rad.

[VegasRobb]

He's gonna be on Oprah tomorrow to address the controversy.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060126/ap_en_tv/disputed_memoir_frey

[Steve Canyon]

Yes, what VegasRobb said.

It looks like Oprah may be jumping ship here. She is billing this show as her wanting to ask James Frey a "million little questions." Despite the tag line, I bet she doesn't really throw him any hardballs.

I wonder if they will discuss anything interesting. I'd like to hear about the limitations of memory or the importance of verifiable facts in memoir, but I bet it degenerates into something a little more sensational.

[Bill Dungsroman]

The Perry Bible Fellowship is wicked rad.

Yeuh!

[Rob Beschizza]

I wonder if they will discuss anything interesting.

If they don't hug as an immediate prelude to telling you where to buy the book, the world will be doing well.

[MatthewF]

Essentially, Frey got owned (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060127/ap_on_en_tv/books_disputed_memoir;_ylt=AtHFGCVBhBMCrsbFTzgZAnW s0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3b2NibDltBHNlYwM3MTY-).

NEW YORK - In a stunning switch from dismissive to disgusted, Oprah Winfrey took on one of her chosen authors, James Frey, accusing him on live television of lying about "A Million Little Pieces" and letting down the many fans of his memoir of addiction and recovery.

"I feel duped," she said Thursday on her syndicated talk show. "But more importantly, I feel that you betrayed millions of readers."

[Rob Beschizza]

The world is doing well.

[Theodore Rex DX]

Pegacorns > Unicorns

[Unicorn McGriddle]

Pegacorns > Unicorns

Sure, draw attention to my inadequacies.

[Steve Canyon]

Did anyone watch this?

I thought Mr Frey looked a little high on something. He kept scratching his nose and it looked like his mouth was dry despite all the water he was drinking. He also had that head wagging thing giong on that makes me think a person has done something like Valium to calm their nerves.

I kept wondering why would go on the show as he knew he had lost Oprah's support before they went on the air. As I watched I realized it must have been the Nan Talese (his publisher) who got him out there. She has the most to lose if he doesn't. He has nothing to gain if he does.

I was suprised to hear Nan say she had a painful root canal expereince, without any pain managment medicine. I was not surprised to hear him back off from even his dental work story. One of the guest reports summed up my feelings best by saying he still enjoyed the book very much but felt the author's lying was reprehensible.

[Jakub]

I want Oprah to interview Oprah to ask herself some hard questions on how she let herself and the world down by being so uncritical, naive and condoning such incredibly bad writing in the first place.

[Tom McNamara]

So if he admits he only spent a couple hours in lockup, that means that My Friend Leonard is complete fantasy, since it's based on the nonexistent 87 days he spent in jail for crimes even the police say he didn't commit.

And now there are rumors bubbling up that Frey plagiarized from a guy named Eddie Little. Specifically, Another Day in Paradise and Steel Toes. Unfortunately, Little can't comment, since he's kind of dead. But it looks like Frey is toast.