First MOO3, now Freelancer...

[Lee Johnson]

... if Rise of Nations also turns out to be a dud, I can pretty well flush my entire set of great expectations for PC gaming in 2003 down the crapper.

Man. :(

[Derek Smart [3000AD]]

uhm, didn' t you forget Unreal II?

[Lee Johnson]

Unreal II was never on my scope. But you can add it to the general list of disappointments if you like. :?

[Joe O'Malley]

What review did you base this assessment on?

[Anonymous]

I have that same horrible feeling Lee, at this rate my formerly rational brain is saying that Tim Cain is going to butcher ToEE and letting Harvey do DX2 is the mistake of the year.

[Lee Johnson]

Recent coverage of MOO3 has neatly punctured the shell of optimism I had built around that title.

I am concerned by similar expressions of disappointment being made about Freelancer over in the Lancers Reactor forums. Many of these are based on experiences with the demo, but I have read declarations that the final product isn't substantially better.

Notwithstanding, I plan to buy both of those titles and check them out for myself; however, I do so with a trepidation that I didn't feel last week.

Enough has been said about Unreal II that I know I don't want it at all. I'm not going to pay top dollar for an "average" game that eats 3GB of my hard disk and yet can be finished in two sittings.

My point in starting this thread is mostly to vent my frustration and disappointment; namely, that many of the titles for which I have waited months and years do not, in fact, appear to have been worth waiting for.

[Aszurom]

Rest assured that IL2 Forgotten Battles with still be a Class AAA+ title. That's where my money's going.

[Gordon Cameron]

I'm now foisting my hopes and dreams onto Lionheart.

But it's kind of nice to have all these games coming out that I don't feel compelled to buy. It's done wonders for my pocketbook.

[Anonymous]

I don't know if you guys realize this or not, but the reason you get so disappointed when games don't turn out to be that great is because you're "foisting your hopes and dreams" onto them before they're released.

Why not just play the good games you have on hand, keep tabs on interesting games that are in development (without pledging them your undying love), then, when they come out, enjoy them if they're good, or leave them on the shelves if they're bad?

[Gordon Cameron]

Obviously you didn't read my thread on "the psychology of anticipation." :)

The looking forward is half the fun...

[Anonymous]

Obviously you didn't read my thread on "the psychology of anticipation." :)

The looking forward is half the fun...

No, I didn't read the thread. I know all too well the "psychology," and I'm all too familiar with the insane ranting of disappointed fans who go berserk when a game they're looking forward to turns out lousy. They're doing it to themselves, and they're impossible to take seriously.

[Robert Sharp]

Wait a minute. You are disappointed by demo reviews? The hands-on preview that Tom Chick did showed a lot of promise with this game. He saw it in action and seemed to like it. It made cover story. Personally, what the press thinks, especially vague impressions, means nothing to me. They loved Black and White early on and games like Half-Life often pass by until word of mouth gets them going. So I am still planning to get it..though perhaps not right away (because I am still playing Divine Divinity).

[Tom Chick]

I don't know what's on the demo, but I'm surprised it has people writing it off already. I've been having a good time with the final version.

I don't care for the story, but I'm not bothering with it. I'm digging it as a free-form level-treadmill kinda thing, with me just blowing shit up, flying around different places, and seeing what kind of stuff I can stick on my ship. I don't know how long the appeal will last, but it's definitely got a Zen hold on me. I still haven't tried a lot of the combat toys. Some of the guys at Shoot Club have said they're into it after trying the demo, so I'm looking forward to grouping with some friends.

Is it repetitve? Sure. Not that there's necessarily anything wrong that that. Is there down time flying around? Sure. That's okay, I like the presentation of geography. I know the Manhattan system like the back of my hand, so I don't even have to use the map. It's kind of cool to start learning some of the others as well.

Is it simple? Not really. Once you get outclassed, which can easily happen if you wander, and you know you're going to wander, there are places you can get really chewed up before you know what hits you. There's a good bit of skill and tactics required in these situations. Boom and zoom to thin out a furball. Then stick to one guy at a time once it's at a manageable level and you're not going to get jumped from behind. It's not the kind of stuff you normally had to do in space sims like X-Wing, but it feels good, like you're flying a computer controlled machine with buttons and displays and some really nice sound and effective graphics and fancy flying with minimal fuss.

I can see why some people might not like it, but for Pete's sake, it's no MOO3.

-Tom

[Jakub]

I think people are approaching this with the wrong expectations. Freelancer made some big promises, and people are hoping to see some of that. Fortunately they seem to have cut the unworkable ideas and delivered a solid product, unlike MOO3...

[Mark Bussman]

I don't know what's on the demo, but I'm surprised it has people writing it off already. I've been having a good time with the final version.

Hmm, maybe there's hope after all. Now I'm definitely waiting for a review before passing judgement. Maybe the problem with the demo is just how limited it is. You can't advance to level 2, you only get 3 ships to play with, and you can't leave the Manhatten / Philadelphia area. (Sorry, I don't know the geography terms and names yet.)Oh, and you only get to fly the first two (I think) story missions.

[deanco]

I didn't have any expectations for Freelancer, and I'm digging the hell out of it. I can't stop playing the demo, to tell the truth. It's got the perfect mix between intense action and the planning, selling, buying and refitting bits. One of the things I don't like about RTS's is that the intensity never lets up the whole game. But here, you can pretty much dial in the intensity you want, from peaceful trader to intergalactic pirate.

DeanCo--

[Anonymous]

Reports of Freelancer's failure have been greatly overexaggerated. Is it still one of the "five games that will change gaming"? No. Is it a fun action game with a terrific sense of exploration? Yes.

People seem to be complaining about one of three things (or combinations):

1- It's not a space sim. This is matter of opinion.
2- Random missions lack variety. They do, in general.
3- economy is "static"; no market fluxuations, no affect of player action on economy (as was originally planned). I agree this is a disappointment, but if you remove this expectation the game isn't damaged from its absence.

Eh, it's not the revolutionary title it was "supposed" to be. Then again, looking at the rest of Computer Gaming World's glorious "Five games that will change gaming," it's a damn surprise that it even made it to market, and finished at that.

If the idea of GTA3 in space offends you, then don't play it. But that's the nearest analogy I can come up with.

[wumpus]

GameSpot's Five Games That Will Change Gaming (circa November, 1999)

1. Freelancer
2. Halo
3. Black & White
4. The Sims
5. Good and Evil
Well, at least 4 of the 5 made it to market. Sims certainly merits the title, and I'm willing to award some partial credit for Halo, which is arguably the best console FPS to date.* So, let's see. That's 1.5 / 5 or 30 percent accuracy.

* Though personally, I'd put it under Goldeneye

[Desslock]

GameSpot's Five Games That Will Change Gaming (circa November, 1999)

Computer Gaming World, not GameSpot.

[xahlt]

B&W did change gaming - it's made gamers and reviewers realize that a title could simultaneously be praised in the mainstream as art and still be insufficient as a game. It's opened critical discussions on games in big media beyond "Doom taught my child to kill!" You could argue it was one of the most critical failures of the gaming review system of hype and short play times yet. And it's given us plenty of material to use in debating whether Molyneux is a genius or pretentious twit.

I never quite understood why they picked Freelancer though.

[wumpus]

Computer Gaming World, not GameSpot.
The only link I found said GameSpot. Weird.

http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache:fTA_NGEzMTEC:www.robotwisdom.com/log1999m11b.html+%22five+games+that+will+change+ga ming%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

[Reed]

Hehe, yep, B&W certainly did make an impact but definitely not like everyone was expecting.

[Desslock]

Computer Gaming World, not GameSpot.
The only link I found said GameSpot. Weird.

http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache:fTA_NGEzMTEC:www.robotwisdom.com/log1999m11b.html+%22five+games+that+will+change+ga ming%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

At the time, GameSpot had a publishing relationship with CGW, so it probably republished CGW's article.

[Mark Asher]

B&W did change gaming - it's made gamers and reviewers realize that a title could simultaneously be praised in the mainstream as art and still be insufficient as a game. It's opened critical discussions on games in big media beyond "Doom taught my child to kill!" You could argue it was one of the most critical failures of the gaming review system of hype and short play times yet. And it's given us plenty of material to use in debating whether Molyneux is a genius or pretentious twit.

I never quite understood why they picked Freelancer though.

The initial design was much more ambitious. It was going to have 1) A radically new space combat model. 2) An AI-driven universe that dynamically generated missions. 3) Was going to be transformed into an MMOG six months after release with an MMOG expansion.

[MikeSofaer]

Is it simple? Not really. Once you get outclassed, which can easily happen if you wander, and you know you're going to wander, there are places you can get really chewed up before you know what hits you.

This never happened to me in the demo. The demo has:
1) Manhattan (the planet)
2) Boston
3) Pittsburgh.

I never met a fight I couldn't win by just chasing around one enemy at a time. Once I had to use 2 shield batteries, but that was an abberation. And since you can't get to level 2, your choice of weapons is seriously limited, so you never really get to play with ship loadout, all the guns are basically the same.

Seems like this is much better in the full version, but why release a demo that takes the interest out of a game?

[Kool Moe Dee]

After playing the FL demo some more, I am digging it a lot. Can't wait for the full version to come out.

I tried being a pirate for a little while, bushwhacking people as they entered my area through jump gates from other systems. I discovered that apparently if you murder all witnesses, nobody gets wind of your crime. :D Even when the cops came by, if I killed them all, it didn't seem to affect my standing with Liberty Police. (I'm hoping that if there are surviving witnesses, that you are pegged as a criminal. I haven't...umm, let that happen yet.) Managed to snag some nice contraband while being a pirate, too, which convinced me that different play styles are actually viable in FL.

I find it hard to believe that, based on the demo, FL will be a dud for me. MOO3, we'll see about. :)

BTW, you can get bushwhacked in the demo. Try going into Outcast territory. I've been jumped by 6-7 ships at once, and either died or barely escaped with my life. Also, if you are a pirate, you'll get yourself into some hectic combat as well.

Edit: Correction, it appears that they just don't care unless you kill a lot of friendly ships, it seems (unless I missed something this time around). Disappointing, but not unexpected.

[Supertanker]

Trade in the demo is a waste of time, and so significantly understates a fun part of the game. The most profitable routes I could find in the demo would get you $30 or so per unit. In playing at Tom's, there were inter-system trade runs people found that generated hundreds per unit. Making one of those runs would mean a new ship. You also stood about a 30% chance of getting killed along the way, so it was an exciting gamble to try those routes.

[Oppressor]

B&W did change gaming - it's made gamers and reviewers realize that a title could simultaneously be praised in the mainstream as art and still be insufficient as a game. It's opened critical discussions on games in big media beyond "Doom taught my child to kill!" You could argue it was one of the most critical failures of the gaming review system of hype and short play times yet. And it's given us plenty of material to use in debating whether Molyneux is a genius or pretentious twit.

I never quite understood why they picked Freelancer though.

I respect Molyneux, but his games of late have a strange tendency to go very wrong about halfway through. Black and White broke the mold in a way by sucking right from the opening scene, and then rewarding the player with flashes of brilliance drowning in a sea of interactive swill - a perfect example of operant conditioning if you ask me.

It would have been worth a bargain bin buy just for the time I got fed up with the game and started throwing my braindead villagers into the sea, only to look back and see my avatar imitating me by doing the same thing. All I could think was "That's my boy! I'm going to miss him" as I uninstalled the game. Sadly, I bought it upon its release.

[Jakub]

It would have been worth a bargain bin buy just for the time I got fed up with the game and started throwing my braindead villagers into the sea, only to look back and see my avatar imitating me by doing the same thing. All I could think was "That's my boy! I'm going to miss him" as I uninstalled the game. Sadly, I bought it upon its release.

No shit! What was the guy thinking?

"Oh, let's have the player tediously micromanage every aspect of his villager's lives! They can't eat without him, they can't build without him... why, even if he provides food, the simps can't even bring that food to their own starving relatives worshipping at some far-fucking off temple instead of at their own town. Sounds like a GREAT game to me! Oh and to top it off, let's make SURE that the worship he gets is never enough to provide adequately for his peons."

ugh, people in Populous were smarter.

[JeffL]

It seems that people (gamers) these days have a compulsion to label every game as either The Best Ever or Total Crap. It's like some kind of emotional hole in their soul that can only be filled with extremes.

I've been playing the Freelancer Gold and it's a good game. It's open enough to let those of us who like to noodle around in our own time and with our own agenda do so. There are a number of nice touches here and there. I think that what it does, it does quite well. If Chick wasn't on this board, I'd even venture to say that it's fun.

There are many whose life is not complete without some nits to pick, and the game will please them because is has a few. But for those who look at computer games as a form of leisure rather than the entire basis for their quality of life, its a good game that'll give you your money's worth back in entertainment.

[Lee Johnson]

The comments posted here, along with a couple of hours spent with the Freelancer demo last night, have dispelled much of my recent pessimism about this title. I'm looking forward to grabbing it next week.

I'm sorry if I overreacted yesterday. It just felt, after the one-two punch of Tom's MOO3 review and the AVault one, topped off by the grumbling about Freelancer over at Lancers Reactor, like all of the exciting PC titles I was anticipating for this year were turning out to be dismal flops, one by one.

Understand, I love the space strategy genre, and feel a special affinity with the MOO franchise that dates back to 1993, when I wrote the MOO1 preview for Strategy Plus magazine. To wait three years for this title and then hear that it's a train wreck... well, it's somewhat disappointing. I'm afraid I let that disappointment spill over into my perception of the early Freelancer freeback, which was a silly thing to do.

[Desslock]

One thing is irrefutable - the cut scenes are really, really terrible.

[Tyjenks]

It seems that people (gamers) these days have a compulsion to label every game as either The Best Ever or Total Crap. It's like some kind of emotional hole in their soul that can only be filled with extremes.

It does seem that way, but those are the only one's that are fun to talk about: the extremes.

Recent average games I spent time with, but felt no compulsion to discuss with anyone:

Etherlords
Diggles
Hooter's Road Trip

Just to name a few.

[tagos]

It seems that people (gamers) these days have a compulsion to label every game as either The Best Ever or Total Crap. It's like some kind of emotional hole in their soul that can only be filled with extremes.

I've been playing the Freelancer Gold and it's a good game. It's open enough to let those of us who like to noodle around in our own time and with our own agenda do so. There are a number of nice touches here and there. I think that what it does, it does quite well. If Chick wasn't on this board, I'd even venture to say that it's fun.

There are many whose life is not complete without some nits to pick, and the game will please them because is has a few. But for those who look at computer games as a form of leisure rather than the entire basis for their quality of life, its a good game that'll give you your money's worth back in entertainment.

That's all i'm expecting from Freelancer, an entertaining arcade rpg now that the true extent of it's feature loss and design compromises have been revealed. I believe a lot of the hostility towards it is coming, basically, from the reaction of the Lancer Reactor forum mods and vets in shouting down any criticism of Freelancer as it now stands.

Dynamic economy? Why would you want that? We never did.

More than 1 type of random mission? One is enough, maybe too many, kudos to DA for not making our brains explode!

3d cockpits? Nah, since when have any vehicles had cockpits, or pilots the ability to turn their heads, get real?

etc etc.

FL looks to be a diverting arcade game, nothing more and nothing wrong with that, but in a genre starved of product it's bound to be hard for people to let go of all the expectations deliberately fostered by the marketeers over the years and when disappointed fans and a board with Microsoft backing, gripped by collective denial meet, then fireworks are bound to ensue.

As someone else said, it ain't a space-sim anymore, let it go. Appreciate it or not for what it is, not what you wanted it to be, or even what you were led to believe you would get.

When I get the courage to upgrade to dx9 i'll be giving the demo a go. I have a feeling I'll enjoy it as a mild diversion until X2 appears.

[Anonymous]

when is X2 comming anyway?

[Jazar]

"One thing is irrefutable - the cut scenes are really, really terrible."

Ironically the graphics in that aspect are really well done (better then the space section arguably), even on a low end machine.

"When I get the courage to upgrade to dx9 i'll be giving the demo a go. I have a feeling I'll enjoy it as a mild diversion until X2 appears."

I heard someone say that you don't need DX9 to run the game, just ignore the requirement and it runs anyway.

[tagos]

when is X2 comming anyway?

As a veteran fan and X forum member I can authoritatively state, i don't know.

Rumours are they almost have a publisher now although no announcement has been made. Beta testing is underway, it shouldn't come out until that iterative process is complete, which i'd guess means a May release at the earliest. It would not surprise me though if a "release ASAP, patch later" temptation wins the day. As Egosoft have an established history of not only producing regular patches but adding new features (such as the ability to own capital ships added to XT in a later patch) I'm happy to snap it up on release.

It's looking good, has a host of new features such as the ability to attach scripted behaviors to objects, and more than one type of random mission.

Unanswered questions include whether the combat AI has risen above the amoeba level. I know this is a common fault of space sims, including FL, but it's more glaring in the X games because combat is much slower paced (WW1 instead of WW3) and it does not try to hide the weakness through the "endless waves of cannon-fodder" approach of Wing Commander and it seems, FL.

The dynamic economy could do with a lot of improvement over XT but at least it has one.

The ability to own your own carriers and other big ships and the underlying game premise, build an industrial empire to build a battle-fleet to take on scary alien invaders, is a big enough lure to compensate for some of the possible short-comings.

[Anonymous]

... if Rise of Nations also turns out to be a dud, I can pretty well flush my entire set of great expectations for PC gaming in 2003 down the crapper.

Man. :(

You should check out Praetorians. The Demo is awesome.

[Derek Smart [3000AD]]

Unanswered questions include whether the combat AI has risen above the amoeba level. I know this is a common fault of space sims,

Rubbish. You've been playing all the wrong space sims

[tagos]

]
Unanswered questions include whether the combat AI has risen above the amoeba level. I know this is a common fault of space sims,

Rubbish. You've been playing all the wrong space sims

Take it as read I don't mean BCM. :P

What others have good ones, point me at them.

Edit - how do you rate the combat AI in I-War 2, which I did find challenging, partly because of the flight model.

[Derek Smart [3000AD]]

]
Unanswered questions include whether the combat AI has risen above the amoeba level. I know this is a common fault of space sims,

Rubbish. You've been playing all the wrong space sims

Take it as read I don't mean BCM. :P

What others have good ones, point me at them.

LMAO!! Nice comeback. Are you camping the forum? :D

Actually the AI in IWAR2 was just fine. It wasn't great, but it was workable. What did you think of that one?

As you said, the AI in X is definitely amoeba-like :D

[tagos]

]

]
Unanswered questions include whether the combat AI has risen above the amoeba level. I know this is a common fault of space sims,

Rubbish. You've been playing all the wrong space sims

Take it as read I don't mean BCM. :P

What others have good ones, point me at them.

LMAO!! Nice comeback. Are you camping the forum? :D

Actually the AI in IWAR2 was just fine. It wasn't great, but it was workable. What did you think of that one?

As you said, the AI in X is definitely amoeba-like :D

Camping? Yep, the Egosoft forum is down and I find it refreshing to come across an erudite game board. We've corresponded in the past on BCM, a series I buy religiously. Looking forward to the next installment, even though I just know i'm going to get my ass kicked across the galaxy.

[Jason McMaster]

I have a more than normal retarded question. Is Freelancer a Wing Commander title? I keep thinking this and I see nothing to say that it is.

also: Etherlords I hates

[Jazar]

"Is Freelancer a Wing Commander title? I keep thinking this and I see nothing to say that it is. "

By spirit only. The project began with the creator of the Wing Commander series after leaving the Wing Commander IP with Origin. His team created the Starlancer/Freelancer space series that has its own universe but in still maintains the Wing Commander spirit. However in mid development of Freelancer the guy (Chris Robers) left to persue other interests.

[Dave Long]

No...if anything, it's set in the Starlancer universe. Is that still true of the game? It was supposed to be that way when it was first announced.

--Dave

[Derek Smart [3000AD]]

Camping? Yep, the Egosoft forum is down and I find it refreshing to come across an erudite game board.

Erudite? Did he just call us Erudite? LMAO!!! Thats fresh, since all-knowing wankers is usually the term used to describe most of us here. OK, well maybe just me, but Dave Long and Wumpus are fighting for the second position :D :D :D


We've corresponded in the past on BCM, a series I buy religiously.

Oh cool. Thanks for your continued support!


Looking forward to the next installment, even though I just know i'm going to get my ass kicked across the galaxy.

hehe, that happens. Better start honing your skills right about now cuz multiplayer (my first foray and which is probably going to have its own share of teething problems) is inbound soon.

[Anonymous]

What was your review of the Freelancer demo Derek?

[Derek Smart [3000AD]]

What was your review of the Freelancer demo Derek?

uhm no, that would be over here (http://www.quartertothree.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2133&start=180)

[Lunch of Kong]

Ironically the graphics in that aspect are really well done (better then the space section arguably), even on a low end machine.

Heck, I think they spent 25% of their CD capacity on the FMV intro (very nicely done).

In cutscenes, the lips of the polygon actors are phonetically synced to the speech. I like that kind of detail.

[Gordon Cameron]

I've been playing the demo today. It seems okay. Feels like Elite Lite. Which isn't entirely a bad thing, given that I am no longer the 1337 g4m0R I once was, and haven't always got the attention span to devote to higher learning curves. Nice atmosphere. Cosmetically at least, the living-universe stuff works pretty well.

I don't feel compelled to buy it so far, but it seems like a respectable effort. Like Pirates and Elite, it lends itself to half-hour chunks of play, which is also nice.

[Chris Nahr]

Looks like I have to return my Grumpy Gamers membership card. I loved the demo, it's a great mix of Diablo and Elite (which by the way wasn't nearly as complex as fond memories might make it seem). Combat was too easy but those who have the full game say it gets much harder, so no worries there. Definitely a buy.

[Aszurom]

Well, I installed the demo and got the warning that it wouldn't work until I installed DX9... so, being the experimenter that I am, I did not install DX9. The demo worked flawlessly from what I can tell.

Why does it need DX9 again?

[Anonymous]

The demo doesn't need DX9. The full game needs it for the multiplayer mode.

[Old Rooster]

I couldn't get my demo (courtesy of Software, etc.) to run without DX9, and went ahead and installed it. Now, you guys have me worried. What's wrong with DX9? Should I try and uninstall it, and how would one do that? Thanks. Old Rooster

[Ben Sones]

Should I try and uninstall it, and how would one do that?

It's easy--just reinstall Windows. Mhuahahahahahaha!

Seriously, there is no reason not to install DX9, as far as I know. It's not, like, broken or anything.

[Lee Johnson]

It was a moot point for me, since Impossible Creatures required me to install DX9. Ironically, IC didn't last two days on my system before I returned it, but DX9 remains like a residue of its fleeting presence. :)

[Lunch of Kong]

In regards to QT3, we don't really run this place, but we have an understanding with those who do.

[XPav]

Are you new around here?

[Jakub]

In regards to QT3, we don't really run this place, but we have an understanding with those who do.

Who told you motherfuckers you could use my place?

We have a deal worked out with Asher.

Asher? Asher's at home with a broken mouse finger.

He don't own the place, I do! How much swag is he getting for this?

There is no swag.

Ain't that something.

[Tom Chick]

You should join us. You and your big friend.

-Tom

[Jakub]

But you don't know where I've been, Tom!

[Anonymous]

Ever feel like your standing on plastic?

[Anonymous]

YOU DON'T KNOW WHERE I'VE BEEN, TOM!!!!!!!! YOU DON'T KNOW WHERE I'VE BBBBBBBEEEENNN!!!!!

[splatter splatter]

--scharmers

[ydejin]

In regards to QT3, we don't really run this place, but we have an understanding with those who do.

LMAO :lol:

[Anonymous]

IGN gives Freelancer a 9.2 :D