What's the deal with XBox and RPGs? [Archive]

Qenan

12-27-2005, 10:30 AM

Seems like most of the RPGs I've played have been on the PS2. Is this coincidence? A corollary of Japanese companies mostly avoiding XBox? Or something else?

I know Oblivion is coming to XBox360 (and PC); is there anything else coming in the near future that stands out?

I like the graphics on my XBox, and I'm sure I'd like 'em on the 360... but right now I'm thinking that my fondness for RPGs favors the PS3. I'm sure I'll have both eventually, but maybe not in the next 12 months.

RepoMan

12-27-2005, 11:01 AM

Reed

12-27-2005, 11:06 AM

Seems like most of the RPGs I've played have been on the PS2. Is this coincidence? A corollary of Japanese companies mostly avoiding XBox? Or something else?
That's really it. Very little Japanese support on the Xbox, and they account for most of the RPGs- Dark Cloud 1&2, Final Fantasy series, Disgaea (and La Pucelle, Phantom Brave, etc), the Shin Megami series, Breath of Fire, Dragon Quest...

I know Oblivion is coming to XBox360 (and PC); is there anything else coming in the near future that stands out?
Should be better this time around, there's already a few Japanese developers signed on. Keep an eye out for Blue Dragon and Lost Odyssey...

Gary Whitta

12-27-2005, 12:26 PM

Whatever happened to American RPG development? Sure there's Oblivion and Bioware is doing its thing, but outside of the MMO space it would appear that American developers/publishers have largely abandoned the genre, leaving the Japanese to continue to serve gamers' needs. Which seems odd because it really does appear as though there is a large desire for quality RPGs these days.

Flowers

12-27-2005, 12:49 PM

American cutscene technology just cannot keep up. We only have the capacity to produce one Blizzard trailer every three to five years. If we switched our cutscene funding away from dazzling CGI and towards realtimewasting animation, we could catch up to them in four decades. Currently, their inane dialog abilities are so well developed, they actually make our attempts at pointless expository dialog and clumsy overtures seem like the script for Casablanca.

We will not be able to compete with the Japanese in an open role playing game market unless we get serious about crapping out animal eared, giggling, sexy sidekicks with voiceovers and lines so mind-numbingly retarded that the average nerd's(Your.) girlfriend will packup a suitcase and go ride muscleheads the first time she catches him (You.) playing the dancing minigame he (again, you.) will need to master to win his (Your.) sidekick special shoes that will make her say she likes his (admit it, your.) character (the fifteen year old orphaned, starcrossed, amnesiac, stoic elf boy you seem have at your beck and call.) Seventy five hours later. (Should only be seventy, but you left the game on pause to go to Shoney's and a movie once.)

Ex-S Woo

12-27-2005, 01:02 PM

American RPG developers always seemed to cater to the PC market and seem to believe that that the console-style RPGs are too beneath them. (Re: Flowers)

With the PC market dwindling, I'm guessing most of the smaller ones folded a lon g time ago(Didn't the guys that made Vampire close up a few months back?) and since PC RPGs tend to focus on 1st person 3D RPGs, there's probably also the problem of long development times when compared to the straight up FPS.

Qenan

12-27-2005, 01:04 PM

Blue Dragon and Lost Odyssey, check. When are they due out?

andtron

12-27-2005, 01:08 PM

American RPG developers always seemed to cater to the PC market and seem to believe that that the console-style RPGs are too beneath them. (Re: Flowers)
I thought the post was funny. :) He's pretty much got the jRPG cliches pegged, not that western RPGs are any better about their cliches. Much worse now with Bioware at the forefront (HERE COMES THE PLOT TWIST!)...

With the PC market dwindling, I'm guessing most of the smaller ones folded a lon g time ago(Didn't the guys that made Vampire close up a few months back?)
Dwindling? Oblivion, Fallout 3, Dragon Age, Witcher, The Fall, and NWN2 are all coming to a pc near you pretty soon. You're right that it's been a lousy year or two for RPGs, but all things work in cycles. Why should RPGs be any different?

and since PC RPGs tend to focus on 1st person 3D RPGs,
News to me.

there's probably also the problem of long development times when compared to the straight up FPS.
Duke Nukem.

Gary Whitta

12-27-2005, 01:13 PM

We will not be able to compete with the Japanese in an open role playing game market unless we get serious about crapping out animal eared, giggling, sexy sidekicks with voiceovers and lines so mind-numbingly retarded that the average nerd's(Your.) girlfriend will packup a suitcase and go ride muscleheads the first time she catches him (You.) playing the dancing minigame he (again, you.) will need to master to win his (Your.) sidekick special shoes that will make her say she likes his (admit it, your.) character (the fifteen year old orphaned, starcrossed, amnesiac, stoic elf boy you seem have at your beck and call.) Seventy five hours later. (Should only be seventy, but you left the game on pause to go to Shoney's and a movie once.)
Post of the week.

BDGE

12-27-2005, 01:31 PM

Flowers post is brilliant. Almost ashamed that I spent 90 hours with DQVIII and loved it.

A Deus Ex sequel that doesn't suck would fit beautifully on the 360. Shame it probably won't happen.

Whatever happened to that System Shock sequel as well? Bioshock was it?

andtron

12-27-2005, 01:37 PM

Qenan

12-27-2005, 01:42 PM

Flowers post is brilliant. Almost ashamed that I spent 90 hours with DQVIII and loved it.

Whatever, dude. I can't be bothered to be ashamed. I'd much rather play in a furry-ear RPG than succumb to the tedium of another generic FPS. I want to be manly and all, but they're so boring...

Shadari

12-27-2005, 01:44 PM

Whatever, dude. I can't be bothered to be ashamed. I'd much rather play in a furry-ear RPG than succumb to the tedium of another generic FPS. I want to be manly and all, but they're so boring...
Aren't they equally generic?

andtron

12-27-2005, 01:44 PM

Aren't they equally generic?
Damn, beat me to it.

Brian Rucker

12-27-2005, 01:53 PM

That brought a tear to this old man's eye, Flowers. *sniff* Absolutely beautiful.

BDGE

12-27-2005, 02:01 PM

This industry needs a Wizardry revival the likes of which will not be forgotten. Offer pre-orders a pair of acidwashed jeans, tickets to an old Ratt concert, and a cutout standee of a half-nekkid model wearing a platemail bustier and you've got a solid start.

Unfortunately our quirky eastern neighbors have other plans for the license...

http://image.lik-sang.com/images//large/ps2-wizardry-x2-jap.jpg

Dave Long

12-27-2005, 04:22 PM

andtron

12-27-2005, 06:41 PM

The Xbox audience is only interested in KOTOR-like RPGs and even then they're not that interested in them. That's the main problem. The console mostly appeals to racing, FPS and sports fans for some reason. Just look at the best seller lists.
I think KOTOR topped out the sales chart for about a year. I'm part of the x-box audience and I'd like to see more variation in RPGs. But its not like there are a lot of RPG dev houses out there. I guess you're complaining that there aren't enough jRPG/Console RPGs on the x-box? I don't understand where you're coming from with your lament. The PC RPG market hasn't been that great lately either. Gothic? Dungeon Siege? Dungeon Lords? Boring.

Gary Whitta

12-27-2005, 06:46 PM

Kevin Grey

12-27-2005, 07:48 PM

Dwindling? Oblivion, Fallout 3, Dragon Age, Witcher, The Fall, and NWN2 are all coming to a pc near you pretty soon.

Unless I'm missing someone the number of signficant North American RPG developers is three: Bethesda, Bioware, and Obsidian. And I'd wait for Obsidian to get a few more titles under their belt lest they go the way of Troika. The other titles you listed, Witcher and The Fall, are from an unproven Eastern European developers (Witcher) and The Fall got pretty poor reviews in the European press IIRC. Bioware is certainly becoming more focused on consoles than PC and Bethesda is putting at least equal effort into both.

And I wouldn't classify those titles as "soon" either. Other than Gothic 3, I think you've listed every single single PC RPG of significance for the next two years or so.

Ben

12-27-2005, 08:02 PM

Dave Long- I know you won't pay attention to me because I constantly harp on your posts being Nintendo talking points copy-pasted from GAF, but AFAIK there were only 3 AAA RPGs on the Xbox and they all did well saleswise. If someone had released a good jRPG on Xbox and it had failed it would be one thing.

RPGs as a genre are in an odd place. Traditional jRPGs and traditional PC RPGs are few and far between these days, everyone is either going to action or strategy elements.

philosophist

12-27-2005, 08:41 PM

Any technical reason the gothic franchise hasn't been ported to the xbox? They'd sell as many copies as Morrowind.

Incendiary Lemon

12-27-2005, 08:56 PM

Any technical reason the gothic franchise hasn't been ported to the xbox? They'd sell as many copies as Morrowind.

Germany is the seconded biggest market for PC Games last I read. It has largely carried the franchise and up to this point I don't think their tech has been terribly port friendly.

Dhruin

12-27-2005, 11:20 PM

Unless I'm missing someone the number of signficant North American RPG developers is three: Bethesda, Bioware, and Obsidian. And I'd wait for Obsidian to get a few more titles under their belt lest they go the way of Troika. The other titles you listed, Witcher and The Fall, are from an unproven Eastern European developers (Witcher) and The Fall got pretty poor reviews in the European press IIRC. Bioware is certainly becoming more focused on consoles than PC and Bethesda is putting at least equal effort into both.

And I wouldn't classify those titles as "soon" either. Other than Gothic 3, I think you've listed every single single PC RPG of significance for the next two years or so.

If you look at western RPGs, the PC is still as or more healthy than the Xbox/Xbox 360 (and the Japanese consoles just don't have any, of course) and this coming year is very good for what has always been a relative niche market.

It's technically correct that CD Projekt are "unproven" but it's probably a little harsh - as the Polish publisher (and localiser) of everything from Fallout to NWN, they've got more experience and resources than most first-time devs. The Fall actually got good Euro press reviews - somehow they mostly seemed to ignore the bugs the players saw...it's also come a long way since that initial release; Silver Style has continued to patch and add features and the English release should be fairly polished. NWN2 alone will sustain Obsidian for quite while, so I doubt their longevity is a big problem for the forseeable future.

A chunk of those titles should be out in the first half this year, so "soon" seems reasonable to me.

12-28-2005, 12:46 AM

are from an unproven Eastern European developers (Witcher)
Your point? Everything I've seen from the game so far looked delicious. And those who got to play it weren't exactly disappointed. Gothic was Piranha Bytes' first title. It certainly has its issues, but is a very immersive game nevertheless.

and The Fall got pretty poor reviews in the European press IIRC
No, not really. The scores usually were somewhere between 75 and 85. And the version they got to test was a lot buggier than what the US/UK market is going to get.

Any technical reason the gothic franchise hasn't been ported to the xbox?
They originally intended to port Gothic II, but that plan was silently dropped after a while. I guess the costs would have been notably higher than the ultimate income. The engine wasn't designed with console specs in mind, the QA process also would have been a lot harder since you cannot release a console game in the same state as they did with lets say Gothic I. Not to mention the total lack of an existing fan base on that system. Which would have been a bigger factor since G2 has stronger ties to G1 than Morrowind to Daggerfall. Also, Germany's the country where titles like Gothic I&II sold best. And the console market over here isn't as strong as it is on the UK or in the US.

They'd sell as many copies as Morrowind.
No way in hell. Don't get me wrong, I prefer Gothic II over Morrowind, but they'd have had a hard time competing with Bethesda. Well, Euro games generally have a hard time outside Europe unless they hit the right niche and also have a big publisher pushing them. Gothic II had Atari, but they weren't exactly advertising the game heavily as far as I can tell.

-JD

Kevin Grey

12-28-2005, 01:14 AM

Your point? Everything I've seen from the game so far looked delicious. And those who got to play it weren't exactly disappointed. Gothic was Piranha Bytes' first title. It certainly has its issues, but is a very immersive game nevertheless

My point is that if PC RPG sales are so healthy why are there so few Western development houses left? Bioware and Bethesda games sell well but do anyone elses? It seems like more and more titles are coming from Europe since production costs are so much cheaper that RPGs can actually get funded. Which is great when these titles eventually make it over (which can take a long damn time) but, again, it certainly isn't a sign of health of the North American PC RPG market when these titles typically have a hard time getting published at all here and often have crappy localizations and support.

So, yeah, I'd call the PC RPG market dwindling.

Dhruin

12-28-2005, 03:02 AM

dogbert

12-28-2005, 06:29 AM

Any technical reason the gothic franchise hasn't been ported to the xbox?

It was ported - at least, I believe it came out for the Xbox in Europe, but not in the US.

12-28-2005, 06:41 AM

No, there never was a console version of Gothic I or II.

-JD

andtron

12-28-2005, 07:08 AM

Are The Fall, Gothic and The Witcher considered AAA titles? I think to the average consumer they'd look like 2nd tier production quality upon first look, especially when compared to Bioware or Bethsoft titles. Maybe not The Witcher but The Fall definitely looks and feels like a lower end game. I managed to play it with my limited skills in German. I didn't find it very interesting. Wasn't nice to look at or very fun to play, though to be fair it could have just been my own limitations as far as communicating with the game.

Kevin Grey

12-28-2005, 10:05 AM

It hasn't been that much different...ever, really. Rewind the clock back 5 years to 2000 and other than Interplay/Black Isle doing stuff with BioWare's Infinity engine instead of Obsidian and Troika with one title due in 2001, you have essentially the same same list. Rewind back to 1995 and some of the names are different but there still aren't that many. There were never large numbers of major RPG development houses.

Meanwhile, Sacred - a German Diablo clone - has sold >1.5M copies. When good PC RPGs are made and well marketed, they generally sell fine. They are hard to make, so NA companies are taking easier paths while Euro developers are still prepared to try but that doesn't mean the buyers are disappearing.

Five years ago all of Bethesda and Bioware's RPG work was PC exclusive. Now, the 360 is arguably the most important platform for Oblivion and three out of four of Bioware's most recently announced RPGs are either console exclusive or have the console as the lead platform.

How many of those Sacred numbers were in Europe vice North America? How well did the Gothic games sell in North America (pretty poorly I'd guess by their inability to maintain a publisher)? Does anyone actually expect The Fall to be a hit here? It's great that these European companies are stepping in to fill this void but, again, if the North American PC RPG market were healthy then I'd expect to see more publishers interested in publishing RPGs here.

Dhruin

12-28-2005, 01:49 PM

Matthew Gallant

12-28-2005, 01:54 PM

Well you can't really hinge any argument on Jade Empire, because it was a very middling game overall.

Gary Whitta

12-28-2005, 01:56 PM

The RPG is the Western of the gaming world. Once a prolific and dominant genre, now relegated to one or two classy entries every few years.

Flowers

12-28-2005, 02:24 PM

Both Westerns and RPGs start to fucking suck if there's too much talking and not enough killing. (Sheriff Golden Sun, you about done wore my patience down. If'n I have truck with you agin, it's ol' Bess that'll do the speakin')

So that would make Action/RPGS the cop movies and SRPGs would be the...?

Kevin Grey

12-28-2005, 02:41 PM

No, The Fall won't be a hit in NA. So? Post-apoc is a niche even among cRPG players, it probably won't receive any marketing and it has a patchy history on the German market. Now, want to bet how many copies NWN2 will sell in a dwindling PC market?

Of course BioWare has diversified - the good Doctors have been growing the business aggressively and are now a $300M behemoth that is looking to go public and they need more and more revenues. Bethesda has done a lot of console work over the years - why wouldn't they port to Xbox?

I'll ask your question in a different way. IIRC, Jade Empire was the only single-platform RPG release for the Xbox and it sold a modest 500k (I guess you could count Sudeki but it had a stealth release on PC). If any downturn in the broader RPG market is because of the PC, then I'd expect to see more publishers interested in publishing RPGs on the Xbox.

If we want to talk about the market then of course sales matter- The Fall may or may not be good or great but the fact that it will have crap sales and that great games like the Gothics also have crap sales over here should certainly tell you something about the health of the PC RPG market.

I would certainly expect NWN 2 to sell well initially but I do have concerns over whether Obsidian will have the resources to keep the community together through the years in the same way that Bioware has.

And, yeah, I agree that all of this means increased emphasis of Western RPG developers on the consoles. But that only points back to my original argument that the PC RPG market is in a downturn.

Dhruin

12-28-2005, 03:22 PM

You didn't answer the question. If the problem is the PC, why was there only one Xbox-exclusive RPG entrant that ultimately garnered modest sales?

Crap sales of Gothic tells me absolutely nothing about the PC market at all. Do you really think Xicat did a good job of even getting Gothic on shelves, let alone marketing and support? That the control scheme didn't lose customers? Then along comes Gothic 2 and it doesn't get distributed in NA for around a year. All the Gothic series tells me is that out of date obscure German titles with no marketing don't sell that well in NA. That's a predictable result and says nothing about about the PC RPG market that isn't obvious for all game segments.

Qenan

12-28-2005, 04:56 PM

Well, the whole point of this thread was that the XBox hasn't had many RPGs. I'm not convinced that has much to do with consoles; the PS2 has a bunch of RPGs. Maybe it just reflects which companies happened to move aggressively to XBox.

As far as RPGs being "Westerns"... you have to go pretty far back to find a time when RPGs were particularly dominant in PC gaming.

Kevin Grey

12-28-2005, 05:17 PM

You didn't answer the question. If the problem is the PC, why was there only one Xbox-exclusive RPG entrant that ultimately garnered modest sales?

Jade Empire isn't the best data point. Despite critical praise its reception among gamers was pretty mixed. And using a variant on ancient Chinese mythology was a pretty risk move in a market dominated by medieval fantasy and/or sci-fi lite. All things being considered I think 500k is actually pretty darn impressive and is a testament to Bioware's name in the community.

And I'll give you another data point- Fable. Yeah it was ported to the PC but well over a year later so it was effectively Xbox exclusive too. And it sold 1 million copies despite a mixed to negative reception.

And I never said "the problem is the PC"- just because the market is dwindling there doesn't mean its rising correspondingly elsewhere (consoles). Flight sims and adventure games are hurting on the PC yet have no corresponding rise on consoles.

My point about consoles is that the two current top PC RPG developers are putting more of their focus on console development which can't be good news for PC only gamers.

We keep talking around this but are you honestly telling me that you think the current PC RPG market is strong?

extarbags

12-28-2005, 05:18 PM

Qmanol

12-28-2005, 05:37 PM

What about the mid-to-late-nineties? Torment, the Fallouts, the Baldur's Gates...

That was a revival. The true time of RPG dominance was significantly further back than that. An you'll also note that you pretty much listed the 5 good games from that era. The IWDs were fairly boring hack & slash, and TORN, Jefferson and Van Buren all failed to be released. And it was still mostly Bioware, BI and Bethesda.

Flowers

12-28-2005, 06:26 PM

The RPG was a force to be reckoned with on the computer during the days of Wizardry, Might and Magic, Ultima, Bard's Tale, SSI D&D. On console, there's only the SNES Squaresoft hit-factory and the Sega CD/Working Designs combo that could ever make you think that RPGs were a part of the average gamers repetoire.

Mostly because there were less games being released overall. I think the level of RPGs in recent release tends to drop when we do a console generation shift. Imagine that, most of them are made in Japan and it usually takes longer to localize more text.

Maybe that Working Designs guy will get that localization service up and running, that's gotta take like, what, 40 nerdy Japanese majors* off the job market, can't see them taking more than two or three days per title. Then we'll have console rpg's flowing in heavier than...no.

*For clarity, the author is here referring to a number of American college students who studied the Japanese language, not, as one might think, to several platoons' worth of the more bookish among Japan's Self-Defense Force officers between the rank of Captain and Lieutenant Colonel. Some studies have shown that the homonymous terminology mayhap be applicable interchangeably.

Kevin Grey

12-28-2005, 06:42 PM

Maybe that Working Designs guy will get that localization service up and running, that's gotta take like, what, 40 nerdy Japanese majors* off the job market, can't see them taking more than two or three days per title. Then we'll have console rpg's flowing in heavier than...no.

Working Designs is no more.

Ben

12-28-2005, 06:44 PM

That was a revival. The true time of RPG dominance was significantly further back than that. An you'll also note that you pretty much listed the 5 good games from that era. The IWDs were fairly boring hack & slash, and TORN, Jefferson and Van Buren all failed to be released. And it was still mostly Bioware, BI and Bethesda.

Yeah, and those 5 games are all top 10 RPGs of all time contenders(and in the same timeframe Diablo/Diablo2/various early MMORPGs). No one genre has dominated the market in 20 years, there are just too many games.

Also, Dhruin, that's a naughty endrun you're using. Just because all the successful Xbox RPGs were ported isn't a data point. An unsuccessful Fable or KOTOR would've stayed a Xbox exclusive.

Dhruin

12-28-2005, 06:50 PM

Jade Empire isn't the best data point. Despite critical praise its reception among gamers was pretty mixed. And using a variant on ancient Chinese mythology was a pretty risk move in a market dominated by medieval fantasy and/or sci-fi lite. All things being considered I think 500k is actually pretty darn impressive and is a testament to Bioware's name in the community.

So, on the one hand you want to point poor sales of The Fall (despite the niche setting and assuming it actually happens) and Gothic published by Xicat as part proof of a dwindling PC market and on the other you are prepared to give Jade Empire excuses because the biggest name in Western RPGs with all the hype machine you can muster used an oriental setting?

And I never said "the problem is the PC"- just because the market is dwindling there doesn't mean its rising correspondingly elsewhere (consoles). Flight sims and adventure games are hurting on the PC yet have no corresponding rise on consoles.

You explicitly pointed to the PC...lower sales from a genre is an entirely different thing to dwindling sales from a platform, so if there isn't a corresponding rise elsewhere you can't specifically identify the platform as the cause. At any rate, this is inaccurate, anyway. If we go back in time PC RPG sales were never in the multi-millions.

My point about consoles is that the two current top PC RPG developers are putting more of their focus on console development which can't be good news for PC only gamers.

We keep talking around this but are you honestly telling me that you think the current PC RPG market is strong?

We have had some poor years lately but I can identify the same patterns in the past...and with what appears to an excellent crop of upcoming PC RPGs, the genre is in as good a shape* as it has been for a long time - possibly ever. Remember when Baldur's Gate was the saviour of the genre back in 1998?

After this batch, it is harder to tell. There's Dragon Age and Fallout 3 but it's too early to tell otherwise.

Do I think the PC RPG market is "strong"...no, I wouldn't use that word. But "dwindling" is a different thing. I think the PC RPG market is - and always has been - a small percentage of the whole market and it ebbs and flows from time to time.

*The market has changed, particularly with the rise of action elements, so many fans will feel differently. I'm just referring to the number of major entrants in the genre as a whole.

Dhruin

12-28-2005, 06:55 PM

Also, Dhruin, that's a naughty endrun you're using. Just because all the successful Xbox RPGs were ported isn't a data point. An unsuccessful Fable or KOTOR would've stayed a Xbox exclusive.

It wasn't intended to be but I take the point in hindsight. :) Anyway, I stand by the point that if it ws simply the PC dropping off, there would be more Xbox exclusive RPGs. Fable might have been ported but KotOR was initially PC-only and then dual platform - it was never an afterthought when the sales were big enough.

Kevin Grey

12-28-2005, 11:11 PM

You explicitly pointed to the PC...lower sales from a genre is an entirely different thing to dwindling sales from a platform, so if there isn't a corresponding rise elsewhere you can't specifically identify the platform as the cause.

Whew, good thing I didn't identify PC platform as the cause. Thanks for putting words in my mouth. I think the PC market is dwindling but that doesn't mean I think the PC itself is the cause. Quite frankly I really don't know what the cause is.

To use your analogy- there is no argument that the PC adventure market is dwindling yet there is no corresponding rise elsewhere. So I can say the "PC adventure market is dwindling" without specifically stating that the market is dwindling due to anything inherent in PC architecture.

So, on the one hand you want to point poor sales of The Fall (despite the niche setting and assuming it actually happens) and Gothic published by Xicat as part proof of a dwindling PC market and on the other you are prepared to give Jade Empire excuses because the biggest name in Western RPGs with all the hype machine you can muster used an oriental setting?

Just look at the publishers- if the PC RPG market was so hot do you really think it would be Xicat and not a major publishing house putting out Gothic? Or that it would take over a year for Gothic 2 Gold and The Fall to find publishers? Does The Fall even have a US publisher yet? If you want to remove the niche titles then you are left with Dragon Age, Oblivion, Fallout 3, and NWN 2 as the "biggies". Four major titles in about two years isn't that great to begin with but when you consider that covers all of the significant PC RPG devs then that will likely make 2008-2010 pretty damn barren while those devs start on their next projects.

Remember when Baldur's Gate was the saviour of the genre back in 1998?

So wouldn't you agree that the RPG market circa 1996 was "dwindling"? Yeah this stuff goes in cycles and I'm not calling the PC RPG market dead and buried but for it to be a cycle there has to be periods of both rise and fall and am arguing that we are on a downward slope right now.

Dhruin

12-28-2005, 11:36 PM

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth. When you specifically say "PC RPGs are in a downturn" as opposed to just "RPGs" (because we've discussed the lack of upturn elsewhere, right?), I interpret that to be a platform-specific reference.

Anyway, we simply see it differently. You think that 2nd-tier publishers picked up Gothic indicates a weak market, while I think it it simply indicates publishers decided there were too many issues (controls etc etc) for it to suit the mega-hit portfolios of the big guys. The Fall apparently does have a NA publisher, although I'm sure it will be a 2nd-tier one - you'll take that as a market indicator, while I see it simply as German post-apoc cRPGs will always be niche in any market conditions.

Thanks for the conversation, though. :)

Kevin Grey

12-29-2005, 01:09 AM

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth. When you specifically say "PC RPGs are in a downturn" as opposed to just "RPGs" (because we've discussed the lack of upturn elsewhere, right?), I interpret that to be a platform-specific reference.

I say "PC RPGs" to make the distinction between console RPGs or, more specifically Japanese RPGs since they are so different in terms of content and style to be almost two completely separate genres. Given the enormous number of JRPGs released in the past year and with a rather large list slated for 2006 I don't think the same argument applies there (though I have read that they aren't selling as well in Japan but I'm not sure that same argument applies to North America).

Of course the Xbox does muddy things a bit. They had almost zero JRPGs released on that platform last generation and the few RPGs that Xbox did get were more "PC" or "western" style.

zabuni

12-29-2005, 01:24 AM

Mostly because there were less games being released overall. I think the level of RPGs in recent release tends to drop when we do a console generation shift. Imagine that, most of them are made in Japan and it usually takes longer to localize more text.

I would say the exact opposite: they usual increase near the end of a console's lifespan, as the usually long development process of many jRPGs comes to fruition.

The PS2 seems to have a healthy line up in the coming months. Next week is Wild Arms 4, followed by Grandia 3, Gundam: MS Saga, and Tales of Lengendia in February. November had Magna Carta, Dragon Quest 8, Wild Arms: Alter Code F and Suikoden Tactics. On the horizon are Kingdom Hearts 2, Rogue Galaxy, FF 12, Metal Saga, Atelier Iris 2, etc.

I found a similar pattern as the ps1 generation.

BDGE

12-29-2005, 02:07 AM

Yeesh, didn't realize so many JRPG's are cluttering the next 2 months. Thanks to this small pile of 360 games I couldn't resist buying, I doubt I'll even check out a single one of those for a good long while.

Qenan

12-29-2005, 06:13 AM

The PS2 may be the weakest console technically, but it still has some great games... here's hoping some of the new RPGs continue that trend.

Moggraider

12-29-2005, 06:18 AM

I would say the exact opposite: they usual increase near the end of a console's lifespan, as the usually long development process of many jRPGs comes to fruition.

The PS2 seems to have a healthy line up in the coming months. Next week is Wild Arms 4, followed by Grandia 3, Gundam: MS Saga, and Tales of Lengendia in February. November had Magna Carta, Dragon Quest 8, Wild Arms: Alter Code F and Suikoden Tactics. On the horizon are Kingdom Hearts 2, Rogue Galaxy, FF 12, Metal Saga, Atelier Iris 2, etc.

I found a similar pattern as the ps1 generation.

You forgot Shadow Hearts: From the New World!

Flowers

12-29-2005, 07:30 AM

Working Designs is no more.
I know, someone in charge there said he wanted to talk to Microsoft or someone about setting up a localization service. Sort of like what Working Designs used to do, but with a different business model.

Ex-S Woo

12-29-2005, 08:34 AM

I know, someone in charge there said he wanted to talk to Microsoft or someone about setting up a localization service. Sort of like what Working Designs used to do, but with a different business model.

? And so, Microsoft will fund a company to publish games for the PS2? There are maybe only a couple dozen Japanese developed Xbox games to begin with, and I can't think of any good ones at the moment.

Besides, Working Designs model only worked when publishers didn't take the RPG genre serious for the consoles. WD can't work in this day and age.

zabuni

12-29-2005, 08:59 AM

His exhortations to the fanboys to pester Microsoft about bringing jRPGs to the US. There's only one about to hit, enchant arms (however it's capatilized), and all of the ones in the pipeline are from Mistwalker, and it would be beyond foolish for Microsoft not to bring out games from the maker of Final Fantasy and with character designs from the creator of Dragonball Z. He already was dealing with the sloppy seconds of the ps2, as companies like Atlus were picking up the pace. What would he translate? Ported hentai games?

unbongwah

12-29-2005, 11:59 AM

As far as PC RPGs go: in the last couple of years we've lost Black Isle (went down with Interplay) & Troika (went down last fall) and gained Obsidian (which seems mostly composed of ex-BI folks). Of the classic and semi-classic RPG franchises, it seems highly unlikely we'll see a new Wizardry, Ultima, Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, or Planescape on a PC anytime soon. [Though D&D is probably immortal at this point - it'll just float around.]

Fallout 3 is in development at Bethesda, as is Oblivion. Obsidian is working on NWN 2. Bioware is working on Dragon Age. Have I missed anything big in NA? [Is someone doing another Might & Magic game? I can't recall...]

Meanwhile, we've seen a surge in European RPGs - both relatively high-profile titles such as Divine / Beyond Divinity, Gothic, & Sacred, as well as lesser games like Heretic Kingdoms - as North American development houses either died out or shifted resources to consoles (most notably the Xbox). So I would say Western-style PC RPGs aren't dying out so much as they're morphing - both in nature and in country of origin.

As far as Xbox RPGs go, I think it's something of a chicken-and-the-egg argument: it doesn't have the "RPG fans' choice" aura that the PS2 does (in large part because it basically flopped in Japan), so RPG fans don't buy Xboxes and game makers don't make many RPGs for it, because RPG fans don't buy Xboxes. Off the top of my head, the Xbox RPGs I can recall are: both KOTORs, Jade Empire, Morrowind, Fable, Sudeki, D&D Heroes, BG Dark Alliance 1 & 2 - plus a few castoffs like Metal Dungeon and Nightcaster I & II. Most of those are action RPGs, not the "pure" RPGs most PC RPG fans tend to favor. Compared to the plethora of (largely Japan-developed) RPGs on the PS2, that seems like a pretty paltry library.

Simply put, the PS2 has a far larger installed base than the Xbox: last numbers I saw were 80 million PS2s vs 20 million Xboxes worldwide (and rougly 20 million Gamecubes, while we're at it). If you're a console RPG developer trying to reach the largest possible audience for what most consider a niche product in the first place, it's not hard to understand why there are so few Xbox RPGs.

andtron

12-29-2005, 12:05 PM

why are you lumping in western RPGs with jRPGs?

I love Fallout, BG, even IWD. But I wouldn't ever play another Final Fantasy type game.

How many Morrowind type RPGs are on PS2?

Ex-S Woo

12-29-2005, 12:10 PM

Don't forget SSI, Sir-tech(well...then again, I guess they're Canadian), and New World Computing/3DO to the list of the dead and defeated. :)

...and Fallout 3 isn't actually being developed yet, is it? I thought it Bethesda just picked up the rights to it?

A lot of the PC-RPG playerbase has been lost to the MMO scene, IMO. Unlike Japanese console-RPGs that usually used the RPG platform to tell a tightly narrated story, PC-RPGs were usually more about exploration in an open ended environment...which MMOs offer quite a bit of. So J-RPGs require a single player experience for it to work while that seems to be totally optional for most PC-RPGs.

Hell, you can probably repackage most of WoW as a single player game + some AI NPCs and it'll win PC RPG of the year.

andtron

12-29-2005, 01:31 PM

Hell, you can probably repackage most of WoW as a single player game + some AI NPCs and it'll win PC RPG of the year.
the only RPG that matches this definition is Morrowind. And while I hate that game with every fiber of my being, it still had plot and character to it. But thinking back to Baldur's Gate, Fallout, Arcanum and even Bloodlines this year. They had very rich settings and characters to interact with.

mtkafka

12-29-2005, 06:42 PM

Xbox and RPG's?!? that doesnt make sense...

never had and never will...

just get a PS2 for the rpgs...

etc

andtron

12-30-2005, 06:16 AM

Xbox and RPG's?!? that doesnt make sense...

never had and never will...

just get a PS2 for the rpgs...

etc
Again, are there any Morrowind/Fable/KOTOR PC-like RPGs on the PS2?

zabuni

12-30-2005, 06:54 AM

Well, there are several Wizardry games, albeit those are a Japanese offshoot of the original game.

I'd say it could be better phrased get a ps2 and a pc for rpgs.

Now, if you are complaining about the fact that people have the terminity to call jRPGs RPGs, that's a semantics war that's been done several times to no good conclusion.

andtron

12-30-2005, 08:46 AM

No, I was really just asking if there were any RPGs of that style. I had no idea, I had been out of the console thing all together since SNES. I only purchased an x-box because it looked like their might be a few RPG titles that I'd be interested in playing. It just seems to me that if you're more of a PC RPG player you're going to have better luck with the XBox than with the PS2.

And I'm not getting into the jRPG/RPG thing. Its very different gameplay styles I think. So its good to have an easy way to distinguish them.

TriggerHappy

12-30-2005, 09:28 AM

It just seems to me that if you're more of a PC RPG player you're going to have better luck with the XBox than with the PS2.

If you're a PC RPG player why would you even look at the XBox? The only decent RPG the XBox has that you can't get on the PC is Jade Empire, no? And the KOTOR's and Morrowind on PC look better and have mod possiblities.

On the other hand, the PS2 has literally dozens of at least decent RPG's you can't get on the PC.

Seems to me PC + PS2 makes tons more sense than PC + XBox, especially for RPG fans. I didn't realize there was even a possibility of debate on that.

andtron

12-30-2005, 09:53 AM

If you're a PC RPG player why would you even look at the XBox? The only decent RPG the XBox has that you can't get on the PC is Jade Empire, no? And the KOTOR's and Morrowind on PC look better and have mod possiblities..
Yeah, there's the trade off of mods but then when you look back at BethSoft's work pre-Xbox most of it was so buggy it was unplayable. You make the trade off for a more stable, put the disc in and play the game version. That does have its allure.

On the other hand, the PS2 has literally dozens of at least decent RPG's you can't get on the PC.
Like I said, its a different kind of RPG and gameplay style. It doesn't appeal to me.

Seems to me PC + PS2 makes tons more sense than PC + XBox, especially for RPG fans. I didn't realize there was even a possibility of debate on that.
Just PC had been my method for a long time, and it was fine. I'll probably go back to it now. Have no interest in picking up an XB360, will just keep plugging away on the PC. Though I will say, the advantage of having an x-box was that I opened myself up to games I wouldn't normally have picked up. And though the same titles are out for the PS2, I still have the added draw of just dropping my morrowind GOTY ed in the dvd drive and playing. No reinstallation, patching, etc.

TriggerHappy

12-30-2005, 10:41 AM

Like I said, its a different kind of RPG and gameplay style. It doesn't appeal to me.

Sounds like you're assuming all PS2 RPG's are like Final Fantasy which is just wrong. The majority might be anime-inspired, turn based, and linear, but there are plenty of RPG's for the PS2 that aren't. Dragon Quest 8, for example, feels more like Might and Magic than any console RPG.

Seems bizarre to me to choose the XBox for your RPG itch just because Morrowind works without an easilly obtained patch.

Just check gameranking's RPG count. PS2 has 67. XBox 22. 7 of the XBox's top 10 are available on the PC. 2 of the 3 left over are availble on the PS2.

The XBox has its strengths, no doubt, but it sure ain't RPG's.

Jason Cross

12-30-2005, 11:02 AM

Microsoft bought out a bunch of Japanese RPG developers. (http://www.gamespot.com/news/6140546.html) So you can expect to see a lot more Japanese-style RPGs for 360. I couldn't find other links beyond the Sakaguchi links (dunno why his name stuck in my mind) -- other people probably have them off the top of their heads.

It's probably a bit much to say they "bought out" a "bunch" of Japanese RPG makers. Microsoft doesn't own Mistwalker, they just have an exclusive publishing deal for two announced games (and more may be coming). Word has it Mistwalker is making a Nintendo DS game as well.

However - the Japanese RPG support for the 360 already looks loads better than for the original Xbox. First out of the gate will be Enchant Arm in February or something. Then the next big ones are Blue Dragon and Lost Odyssey, created by Mistwalker (basically all the best Square people who left to form their own company). There are one or two others that aren't springing to mind, but they're not nearly as big a deal as the Mistwalker games. Plus, it has been said that Microsoft and Sqaure are going to do more than just that awful Final Fantasy XI port.

The US RPG support should be pretty strong. Expect some Bioware games (Mass Effect announced, a Jade Empire sequel is assumed), of course Oblivion, and maybe a KOTOR 3, Fable 2, and there's this persistant rumor of a Shadowrun game in the works (RPG or not, who knows).

The hope is that the Japanese RPG stuff will sort of snowball. With the two Mistwalker games they're hitting the Japanese gamers where it counts, in theory. They've got the sort of super-deformed younger style RPG in Blue Dragon and the more mature, overly spiritual storyline RPG with Lost Odyssey. Both are produced, directed, art-directed, and musical-scored by absolute rockstars of the Japanese RPG world. If they don't push 360s in Japan, then MS might as well hang it up. ;) And if 360s start to jump off shelves with a couple hot RPGs, other RPG makers will follow. If the system doesn't sell well in the first couple years in Japan, nobody is going to bother.

Generally speaking, big console-exclusive RPGs don't show up until at least Year 2 of the console's life cycle. They take a long time to make and test, relative to your standard fighting or driving or platform game.

olaf

12-30-2005, 03:27 PM

Ben

12-30-2005, 03:36 PM

Your character in DQ8 is at least late teens. And Might and Magic was pretty silly itself. It's a reasonable comparison.

Qenan

12-30-2005, 05:11 PM

The anime look kills it. Fighting silly monsters like wooden ducks kills it. Being a 12 year old in game, kills it. I dont think DQ8 is at all like MM. I havent played a PS2 RPG I felt was similar to a traditional PC style RPG.

Maybe if you're completely humor-impaired. The fact that it doesn't take itself too seriously is a major plus in my book.

Equis

12-30-2005, 06:33 PM

Sounds like you're assuming all PS2 RPG's are like Final Fantasy which is just wrong. The majority might be anime-inspired, turn based, and linear, but there are plenty of RPG's for the PS2 that aren't. Dragon Quest 8, for example, feels more like Might and Magic than any console RPG.

Honestly, people on this board have been saying that. But i just don't get it. DQ8, and I highly enjoy the game, seems to be more the perfect refined streamlined version of Japanese console RPGs. Right down to the little towns, the random battles, the cutesy sidekicks and characters introduced every so often and the plot.

Also, there was a point in time that I was looking for an RPG fix with the Xbox i had. Looking at the list available and realizing the futility in such a quest. (Fable was amusing for a while, quickly devolving into repetitive dreck) I traded my Xbox for a PS2 and am now enjoying DQ8 with FFXII on the way.

I urge whoever it is to do the same.

philosophist

12-30-2005, 10:40 PM

Sorry for the inane comment, but.... xbox 360 + rpg == oblivion

andtron

01-03-2006, 06:40 AM

Sounds like you're assuming all PS2 RPG's are like Final Fantasy which is just wrong.
That's why I asked, repeatedly.

The majority might be anime-inspired, turn based, and linear, but there are plenty of RPG's for the PS2 that aren't. Dragon Quest 8, for example, feels more like Might and Magic than any console RPG.
Previews read like Pokemon to me, too cutesy though.

Seems bizarre to me to choose the XBox for your RPG itch just because Morrowind works without an easilly obtained patch.
It goes beyond that. No installation hassles, also have KOTORs, Fable and Jade Empire to play and then I can switch it up with a little Tony Hawk or Full Spectrum Warrior. While sitting on my couch.

Still have my copy of Gothic 2 and FFvT3R to play on my PC. So its not like I'm cutting one out for the sake of another.

Just check gameranking's RPG count. PS2 has 67. XBox 22. 7 of the XBox's top 10 are available on the PC. 2 of the 3 left over are availble on the PS2.
And most of them are those FF Style romps. While they might please the larger majority of people, especially console gamers, I haven't played one since FF7. After sitting through about 4 hours of GF animations I was done with the whole lot of them. No thanks.

The XBox has its strengths, no doubt, but it sure ain't RPG's.
Right, which is why I'll be avoiding the next gen consoles and sticking with the PC. Should have never strayed. :)

TriggerHappy

01-03-2006, 11:13 AM

Honestly, people on this board have been saying that. But i just don't get it. DQ8, and I highly enjoy the game, seems to be more the perfect refined streamlined version of Japanese console RPGs. Right down to the little towns, the random battles, the cutesy sidekicks and characters introduced every so often and the plot.

Also, there was a point in time that I was looking for an RPG fix with the Xbox i had. Looking at the list available and realizing the futility in such a quest. (Fable was amusing for a while, quickly devolving into repetitive dreck) I traded my Xbox for a PS2 and am now enjoying DQ8 with FFXII on the way.

I urge whoever it is to do the same.

Other than not being able to create your characters yourself, DQ8 might as well be Might and Magic 5.5 to me. Might and Magic (before the first person garbage, which I hated) had those little towns, had random battles, had world exploration, had silly monsters, the same view in combat, similar combat options, etc. The primary differences seem to be technical (viewpoint, cell shaded poly models instead of sprites), or ancilary (alchemy pot).

It's one of the reasons I love DQ8 so much. Might and Magic 2 was my first CRPG.

It goes beyond that. No installation hassles, also have KOTORs, Fable and Jade Empire to play and then I can switch it up with a little Tony Hawk or Full Spectrum Warrior. While sitting on my couch.

You realize Jade Empire and Full Spectrum Warrior are the only games in that list that isn't available on the PC already, right? Jade Empire wasn't all that, and the PC has a few other modern day squad based FPS's to choose from. With better controls.

The couch angle is valid, unless you happen to have a hyper comfortable PC chair.

Right, which is why I'll be avoiding the next gen consoles and sticking with the PC. Should have never strayed. :)

Don't get me wrong, consoles have stuff going for them too. Price, social gaming, sports and racing genres. My XBox money feels justified for Forza and split screen Halo alone.

andtron

01-03-2006, 11:31 AM

You realize Jade Empire and Full Spectrum Warrior are the only games in that list that isn't available on the PC already, right? Jade Empire wasn't all that, and the PC has a few other modern day squad based FPS's to choose from. With better controls.
FSW is available on the PC. Most of my x-box titles are also available on the PC. But like I said earlier, no installation hassles and the bug problems are lighter, or at least seem that way. And yes, I know, JE isn't anything special its lacking in a lot of areas, even. FSW isn't an FPS, don't think I would have bothered if it had been but I do have Ten Hammers on pre order. (for the PC :] )

The couch angle is valid, unless you happen to have a hyper comfortable PC chair.
Have that too. That was a must way back when I had to sit through all the dialog options in Planescape Torment. But its still nice to be able to sit back on the couch and game, even with a cozy computer chair just across the room.

Don't get me wrong, consoles have stuff going for them too. Price, social gaming, sports and racing genres. My XBox money feels justified for Forza and split screen Halo alone.
I said earlier in the thread that the xbox had been my first venture into the console world since the SNES. It will probably be my last, too.

Ex-S Woo

01-03-2006, 11:36 AM

andtron

01-03-2006, 12:06 PM

Going from a PC to a Xbox isn't a switch at all. That's like switching from a 4g iPod to the mini and complaining how underwhelming it is.

Jeez, you could've at least picked a console that would've given you access to different games.
Considering I mostly played RTS' and games like Fallout/PST, it was a big switch for me. All things relative I guess. And that's not to say that I hadn't tried PS titles. I don't remember any of the titles aside from Final Fantasy 7 and I only remember that one because I hate it so so so very much. Needless to say, it didn't leave any positive impression and thus I had little interest in the PS2. My sample was probably way too limited, you might even think me a narrow minded hermit and that's completely fair. I am. I'm very picky about what titles I pick up, what genres I play, and I certainly don't spend any time even following what's being developed in those genres I've "blacklisted."