I understand the need for cdkeys...

[Charles]

..but this is getting ridiculous!

http://www.thereisnocharles.com/wtf.jpg

There has to be a better way.

[Union Carbide]

Well, it's one CD key for each product. If you'd bought them as each came out you'd have entered all of them anyway, just spread out over a couple of years.

At least they let you enter them all at once in the Diamond edition. When I reinstall from my platinum ed, I think I have to enter each key as I install each expansion pack.

[Marcus]

Well here is another problem with that installer that I found out. When you enter the keys if you miss key one it doesnt tell you till you try to get in to the game. I wish it checked it then but I guess not. Its a great set though I have been having a lot of fun with it.

[Robert Sharp]

I never played this game. Worth getting? I don't know that I would ever do the multiplayer, so is it worth getting for the single player?

[Charles]

Well, it's one CD key for each product. If you'd bought them as each came out you'd have entered all of them anyway, just spread out over a couple of years.

At least they let you enter them all at once in the Diamond edition. When I reinstall from my platinum ed, I think I have to enter each key as I install each expansion pack.

Yeah... but we're talking 7 boxes of five characters each. Times three. That's 105 characters to type in, with much potential for fucking up, with, as ranvarian said, no indication until you try and run the game.

[Derek French]

Well here is another problem with that installer that I found out. When you enter the keys if you miss key one it doesnt tell you till you try to get in to the game. I wish it checked it then but I guess not. Its a great set though I have been having a lot of fun with it.
Send me a PM with more details on this. The installer is actually more helpful then our previous ones in letting you know if you fsked up putting in the CD Key.

[Derek French]

..but this is getting ridiculous!

wtf.jpg

There has to be a better way.
OK, I will take the bait, Chuckles. :)

3-1/2 year old game with 2 expansion packs, all with CD Keys. What is your solution?

We decided to prompt you for all 3 CD Keys at once as well as highlight any errors in entry (such as entering a letter or number that doesn't exist), rather than just run all three installers sequentially. Aside from that, I don't have any other good ideas on the subject.

SecureROM (the company, not the protection system) offers an interesting solution. They claim the ability to burn individual CD Keys onto the data disks and give you an API to read them off into your installer or your game, such that the customer never needs to enter them. Obviously there are some big potential risks with this and I don't know of an existing game that uses this tech.

[Backov]

I dunno - perhaps a repackage with ONE CD-Key? Really not that hard.

[Lunch of Kong]

How much are they charging for that?

[Derek French]

I dunno - perhaps a repackage with ONE CD-Key? Really not that hard.
Except that all game servers you would want to connect to require 1 CD Key for the original game and for each expansion. I am sure we could simply omit the expansion CD Keys for the installer, but then you would just be prompted for them later.

[Marcus]

How much are they charging for that?

29.99 its on DVD only from what I have seen.

[Charles]

OK, I will take the bait, Chuckles. :)

3-1/2 year old game with 2 expansion packs, all with CD Keys. What is your solution?


Not having three cd keys =)

[Union Carbide]

How much are they charging for that?

29.99 its on DVD only from what I have seen.

Yeah, I'm almost willing to buy it again on DVD just so I don't have to dick around with the what, 7 disks now?

[Marcus]

It was a steal for me because I had not bought any of the expansions yet. The fact that it comes on DVD is just that much better.

I have not had a chance to try out the kingmaker stuff yet but its a good value all in all.

[MightyMooquack]

I never played this game. Worth getting? I don't know that I would ever do the multiplayer, so is it worth getting for the single player?

For the original campaign (called the "Live" campaign), no. That one was terrible. For the two expansion campaigns, most assuredly yes. Those are excellent. Then there are about a billion user-made campaigns which are also excellent.

[Derek French]

OK, I will take the bait, Chuckles. :)

3-1/2 year old game with 2 expansion packs, all with CD Keys. What is your solution?


Not having three cd keys =)
Drat. Owned by the bloody obvious! I am not sure if the game industry itself ever looks that far into the future.

[Rob Beschizza]

I, for one, would rather have invisible, Windows XP-like internet activation. And I don't want to be told about it, ever, unless there is an activation problem.

[Jasper Phillips]

I dunno - perhaps a repackage with ONE CD-Key? Really not that hard.
Except that all game servers you would want to connect to require 1 CD Key for the original game and for each expansion. I am sure we could simply omit the expansion CD Keys for the installer, but then you would just be prompted for them later.
:roll: Why not fix that problem too?

[Qmanol]

I dunno - perhaps a repackage with ONE CD-Key? Really not that hard.
Except that all game servers you would want to connect to require 1 CD Key for the original game and for each expansion. I am sure we could simply omit the expansion CD Keys for the installer, but then you would just be prompted for them later.
:roll: Why not fix that problem too?

How would you fix it? Without patching the game to not require CD keys, and thus removing any need for people to buy it.

[wildpokerman]

Just out of curiousity has anyone bought the original sims pack with all the expansions? If they don't have a single CD key for that it could be a lot of typing as well.

[Lunch of Kong]

How much are they charging for that?

29.99 its on DVD only from what I have seen.

Yeah, I'm almost willing to buy it again on DVD just so I don't have to dick around with the what, 7 disks now?

No, no. I meant, how much is SecureROM charging for digitally marking each CD with a unique key?

[Derek French]

I don't know, Roger. I just came across the information a few weeks ago.

[Charles]

OK, I will take the bait, Chuckles. :)

3-1/2 year old game with 2 expansion packs, all with CD Keys. What is your solution?


Not having three cd keys =)
Drat. Owned by the bloody obvious! I am not sure if the game industry itself ever looks that far into the future.

Apparently not, or a system could've been made where certain cdkeys applied to certain combinations, thus allowing one key per package. I mean, after all, it's not like people didn't know there'd be packages sold later on. So it would've made sense to have certain types of keys which were applicable for multiple combinations of software, as well as the typical key per, as is now used.

Also, it's a master server that validates keys, right? So you'd only need to have patched the master server to allow certain keys to work for groups of product.

[VegasRobb]

How much are they charging for that?

29.99 its on DVD only from what I have seen.

$24.99 @ Fry's.

I wonder if it's available for download?

[Bill Dungsroman]

Yeah... but we're talking 7 boxes of five characters each. Times three. That's 105 characters to type in, with much potential for fucking up, with, as ranvarian said, no indication until you try and run the game.

Yeah, but the point is, those CD keys are kind of like my penis; the lengthiness is just overkill. You don't need that many potential combinations OH MY GOD WE MIGHT RUN OUT OF THEM! THEY WILL GET HAXORED IF THEY ARE TOO SHORT!!!!ONE!! Sure, okay. Let's go with 20 digits, okay? Yeah, fucking 20 is enough, right? But, not too much..?

Meanwhile, scientific types figger that, assuming a modest 36 possible choices for each digit (non-case-specific letters and numbers), it would take a cracker working on a ten digit passcode about, oh, a little over 1000 years (http://geodsoft.com/howto/password/cracking_passwords.htm) to break it. Moore's Law notwithstanding, I think he'd give up after the first couple decades.

Ten; man, that's half. Two five-character strings, instead of fucking five fours. We could compromise at 15 if some of you nervous Nellies want your Windows to store a null appendage and keep those L0phtcrack monkeys out, but whatever.

[Fugitive]

Meanwhile, scientific types figger that, assuming a modest 36 possible choices for each digit (non-case-specific letters and numbers), it would take a cracker working on a ten digit passcode about, oh, a little over 1000 years (http://geodsoft.com/howto/password/cracking_passwords.htm) to break it. Moore's Law notwithstanding, I think he'd give up after the first couple decades.

It's not quite comparable with finding an encryption key or a password though, since there's far more than one valid result. A high-use system would have to permit at least millions of valid keys. But you want an even bigger *invalid* keyspace, since you don't want people to be able to create 'valid' keys that collide with purchased keys just using random data.

It has to be self-verifying, since you're not forced to go online and validate it, so some of that data is going to be a checksum or such. That also means that there's probably some pattern to the key, and that the pattern can be deduced by debugging the hunk of code that does the verification. If a company recognizes that they *will* be hacked in this way, then they might want an even bigger valid keyspace as well, to prevent collisions between valid keys and pirate-generated keys. Which means a bigger invalid keyspace again.

But still, a single key for the Diamond pack would have been nice... :) (I already had NWN, but got it for the Kingmaker stuff and DVD.)

[TrodKnee]

CD keys should all come with bar codes, and there should be some kind of cheapo USB bar code scanner you can buy. I mean my mouse has a freakin laser over here...

[Derek French]

CD keys should all come with bar codes, and there should be some kind of cheapo USB bar code scanner you can buy. I mean my mouse has a freakin laser over here...
Yeah, make optical mice read the codes :)

[Derek French]

Yeah... but we're talking 7 boxes of five characters each. Times three. That's 105 characters to type in, with much potential for fucking up, with, as ranvarian said, no indication until you try and run the game.

Yeah, but the point is, those CD keys are kind of like my penis; the lengthiness is just overkill. You don't need that many potential combinations OH MY GOD WE MIGHT RUN OUT OF THEM! THEY WILL GET HAXORED IF THEY ARE TOO SHORT!!!!ONE!! Sure, okay. Let's go with 20 digits, okay? Yeah, fucking 20 is enough, right? But, not too much..?

Meanwhile, scientific types figger that, assuming a modest 36 possible choices for each digit (non-case-specific letters and numbers), it would take a cracker working on a ten digit passcode about, oh, a little over 1000 years (http://geodsoft.com/howto/password/cracking_passwords.htm) to break it. Moore's Law notwithstanding, I think he'd give up after the first couple decades.

Ten; man, that's half. Two five-character strings, instead of fucking five fours. We could compromise at 15 if some of you nervous Nellies want your Windows to store a null appendage and keep those L0phtcrack monkeys out, but whatever.
That is not entirely true. Most CD Keys are made up of 3 components. The Private Key, the Public Key, and a checksum. The public CD Key is there so that people can do bans and such on their servers without needing to know the entire CD Key (thus you could turn any server into a CD Key collection site). Checksum can be as little as 2 digits. Both the private and public have to balance out to some sort of uniqueness. And as was already said, there needs to be a rather large set of invalid keyspace for everything to work correctly.

Mathematically, most groups are able to provide a working keygen within 24 hours of a game's release. That will let you install, but it sure won't work in multiplayer.

[shift6]

I'm reasonably certain that NWN is past the "flying off the shelves" part of its life. Possible solution? Remove CD key checks, including online.

[Jasper Phillips]

I dunno - perhaps a repackage with ONE CD-Key? Really not that hard.
Except that all game servers you would want to connect to require 1 CD Key for the original game and for each expansion. I am sure we could simply omit the expansion CD Keys for the installer, but then you would just be prompted for them later.
:roll: Why not fix that problem too?
How would you fix it? Without patching the game to not require CD keys, and thus removing any need for people to buy it.
:roll: Oh, I don't know. How about issue a 4th key for Diamand that worked in place of all the previous products? How about just requiring any one key, or the key from the latest expansion, on the reasonably theory that anyone who paid some money for your game was likely paying for all of it?

[CustodianV131]

Anyone found this in Europe or found a webshop that ships it at reasonable costs?

Really would like to get the diamond edition, but can't find it here.

Having the expansions without needing the online checks would be great for my laptop. Would only miss out on the pirates one, hope that will also become available offline someday.

IE I do have it right that you can't play the online pat to play chapters without a internet connection right? Kept me from buying them so far.

Only got the basic NWN now, so the diamond is really good value for the money to me.

[Chris Nahr]

Anyone found this in Europe or found a webshop that ships it at reasonable costs?

Yes, right now, at Play.com (http://www.play.com/play247.asp?page=title&r=PC&title=719542&id=0&adudisc=y&who=&cpage=1&pa=cart&Cur=258) in the UK. Only 29 euros.


Really would like to get the diamond edition, but can't find it here.

That's because it's called "Deluxe Special Edition" in Europe. :)

Okay, I don't know if the two are actually identical but the DSE includes the basic game, both expansions, and a bonus CD, so that's good enough for me.

[Charles]

Seems that it's selling for the same numerical price everywhere. Which is funny, cause I bought it for $29 CDN.

[EvilIdler]

Anyone found this in Europe or found a webshop that ships it at reasonable costs?


It's on the shelves here, and I'm really considering it, too. Never got
around to buying the expansions, either.

[EvilIdler]

That's because it's called "Deluxe Special Edition" in Europe. :)

The first store I saw it at in Norway actually had a Diamond edition.
It's not unknown to get US releases here, though; EB had Psychonauts
way back when it was originally released, so it was news to me that it was
only recently released for PC here.

[Derek French]

I'm reasonably certain that NWN is past the "flying off the shelves" part of its life. Possible solution? Remove CD key checks, including online.
There are many problems with that idea. It would expose the server admins to no sure way to ban problem players. It would disable the ability to continue to make and sell Premium Modules for NWN. It would require patching the game and other systems to suddenly not use a functional system - I think that making that radical change to a game this late in its life cycle is a high-risk venture. It would not fix anything for anyone who still has the current and past install versions of the game. The original issue was that there were too many CD Keys/characters to enter.

[stusser]

Umm, bioware controls cdkey verification. Just set the nwn-diamond CDkey to validate for all 3 titles, boom, done.

[Charles]

Umm, bioware controls cdkey verification. Just set the nwn-diamond CDkey to validate for all 3 titles, boom, done.

See, I'd agree, but based on the responses in this thread from Derek, I am forced to believe that either

A) It's difficult.
B) It's impossible.
C) Bioware didn't give a shit enough to put any thought in to whether or not entering three cdkeys at once would suck.


Personally, despite having many friends and ex-coworkers whom I respect at Bioware, I'm inclined towards C).

(No offense, Derek, you know I love you!)

[stusser]

I'd say it's more like

D) NWN Diamond is an value-priced bundled three year old product and the whole point was that they wanted to release a new SKU without costing them anything for testing/development.

But that's just my guess.

[flyinj]

I'm reasonably certain that NWN is past the "flying off the shelves" part of its life. Possible solution? Remove CD key checks, including online.

Bingo.

[CustodianV131]

Really would like to get the diamond edition, but can't find it here.

That's because it's called "Deluxe Special Edition" in Europe. :)

Okay, I don't know if the two are actually identical but the DSE includes the basic game, both expansions, and a bonus CD, so that's good enough for me.

You sure? I think that compares to the platina edition in the US, reading the description at Play.com. I really want those web adventures with it and all of it on one DvD.

[Derek French]

Personally, despite having many friends and ex-coworkers whom I respect at Bioware, I'm inclined towards C).

(No offense, Derek, you know I love you!)
Love you too, man! :P

stusser pretty much has the right answer. It doesn't make much sense to reengineer a whole set of systems and radically change the way multiplayer works in order to ease the entry of CD Keys for a three year old bundle. For the most part, we have found that a vast majority of our customers are able to successfully enter their CD Keys with little problem. Those that encounter issues are always able to get them resolved through support at our web site and our support personel.

For the original issue of entering mutiple CD Keys, there really isn't any better solution than asking for them all at once for Platinum and Diamond. We added in extra checks to help you out and we highlight any box that has entered invalid data.

Neverwinter Nights and the Premium modules are still selling well. Well enough to continue to manufacture it, continue to update the game with new features and continued Premium modules for the next while. I am really proud of the fact that the community still has such strong support for a game released 3 and a half years ago.

[Charles]

For the most part, we have found that a vast majority of our customers are able to successfully enter their CD Keys with little problem.

Hey now! You insultin'me?


That being said, I'm relateively sure NWN still sells, just because if it didn't, there wouldn't be 40+ copies of NWN diamond sitting on the shelves in the stores I've seen. I mean, you've got to know it's going to sell if you put that many copies in stores.

I'm curious though as to why the price point is the same numerically in the US, Canada, and Europe. If you average out the prices, Europe is getting right fucked, whereas Canada's getting a pretty sweet deal.

[Qmanol]

For the most part, we have found that a vast majority of our customers are able to successfully enter their CD Keys with little problem.

Hey now! You insultin'me?


That being said, I'm relateively sure NWN still sells, just because if it didn't, there wouldn't be 40+ copies of NWN diamond sitting on the shelves in the stores I've seen. I mean, you've got to know it's going to sell if you put that many copies in stores.

I'm curious though as to why the price point is the same numerically in the US, Canada, and Europe. If you average out the prices, Europe is getting right fucked, whereas Canada's getting a pretty sweet deal.

More to the point, the Australian dollar is very close to Canada's ($CDN29 ~= $AU33.50), and the price here? $AU69.95. Even Europe thinks we're getting screwed. And no Xbox360 till March!

[Shadarr]

And no Xbox360 till March!
The only difference between us and you is that you know up front that you won't be getting it till March. Here there's an illusion that it's already been released, but as far as walking into a store and buying one there is no difference.

[Qmanol]

And no Xbox360 till March!
The only difference between us and you is that you know up front that you won't be getting it till March. Here there's an illusion that it's already been released, but as far as walking into a store and buying one there is no difference.
Well that was more a tangent. I don't care about the Xbox360, except for 4-player Gauntlet, and it's a bit steep for just that.
But in Australia, we get the European release schedule without even the justification of translation, games banned, and prices are generally at least $US20 above normal.
If I could find a good online retailer who shipped to Australia *glares at Amazon* I'd probably import all my games. (Though, to be honest, I haven't looked that hard.) Of the first-world countries, only New Zealand gets it worse, to my knowledge.

[Chris Nahr]

You sure? I think that compares to the platina edition in the US, reading the description at Play.com. I really want those web adventures with it and all of it on one DvD.

Like I said I'm not really sure. Never heard about those web adventures, but the name seems to imply that you can download them anyway? I've looked through Amazon UK and Play.com, and this DSE was the most complete edition I found in Europe. There's no Diamond edition here, sorry.

[Derek French]

For the most part, we have found that a vast majority of our customers are able to successfully enter their CD Keys with little problem.

Hey now! You insultin'me?
Rats, was I that obvious? :lol:

I'm curious though as to why the price point is the same numerically in the US, Canada, and Europe.
No idea. Its a "publisher thing".

[CustodianV131]

You sure? I think that compares to the platina edition in the US, reading the description at Play.com. I really want those web adventures with it and all of it on one DvD.

Like I said I'm not really sure. Never heard about those web adventures, but the name seems to imply that you can download them anyway? I've looked through Amazon UK and Play.com, and this DSE was the most complete edition I found in Europe. There's no Diamond edition here, sorry.

No, I mean what Bioware calls the the Kingmaker expansion:
http://nwn.bioware.com/about/diamondedition.html You've to pay to download them and be connected to the internet. So I rather get them on disc and forgo that hassle.

Thanks anyway, I'll keep looking for a bit and check a few import shops. Otherwise the Play deal might be best.

[Bill Dungsroman]

You sure? I think that compares to the platina edition in the US, reading the description at Play.com. I really want those web adventures with it and all of it on one DvD.

Like I said I'm not really sure. Never heard about those web adventures, but the name seems to imply that you can download them anyway? I've looked through Amazon UK and Play.com, and this DSE was the most complete edition I found in Europe. There's no Diamond edition here, sorry.

No, I mean what Bioware calls the the Kingmaker expansion:
http://nwn.bioware.com/about/diamondedition.html You've to pay to download them and be connected to the internet. So I rather get them on disc and forgo that hassle.

Thanks anyway, I'll keep looking for a bit and check a few import shops. Otherwise the Play deal might be best.

Well, you can buy them on CD too, as a seperate boxed item - for, I believe, roughly the same prioce as the entire Diamond Edition.

[mono]

The Bioware NWN site lets you register your NWN and expansion cdkeys and tie them to your forum account. This was invaulable recently, as I lost my original NWN manual, but was able to recover my key from the official site. Kind of oblique to the OP, but a very useful service nonetheless.

I also stumbled upon this little Windows app designed to organize your cdkeys:
http://shadowdane.shackspace.com/cdkey/index.html.
http://shadowdane.shackspace.com/cdkey/pics/cdkey.png

[Chris Nahr]

Anyone found this in Europe or found a webshop that ships it at reasonable costs?

Yes, right now, at Play.com (http://www.play.com/play247.asp?page=title&r=PC&title=719542&id=0&adudisc=y&who=&cpage=1&pa=cart&Cur=258) in the UK. Only 29 euros.

Update: I just received this European "Deluxe Edition" of Neverwinter Nights. Shipping from Britain to Germany took about a week -- and was free! I was pretty surprised at that since Amazon UK and sendit.com charge around 3 pounds. I suppose they might change that policy once they get a lot of international orders, so get it while it's free. :)

This edition consists of two DVD boxes in a cardboard box. No printed documentation, and the DVD boxes contain the five original CDs plus a bonus CD... no DVD edition, alas.

Included are the basic NWN game and the two official expansions, Shadows of Undrentide and Hordes of the Underdark. Also included is a pleasant surprise on the sixth CD: the three "Premium Modules" Kingmaker, Shadowguard, and Witch's Wake -- all apparently pre-registered full versions! I haven't seen a way to easily check this, but when I started them the game did not show a "Play Demo" button after verification with the Bioware server, and I understand this is what would happen if they were just demo versions.

There are also a number of community demo modules; but I think they're intended as WorldBuilder examples, not playable campaigns.

Another pleasant surprise: some of the included patches (it's the latest version 1.66 out of the box) apparently removed the CD check. Very nice, although not as important as it used to be since I'm now using the incredibly useful Game Jackal (http://www.gamejackal.com) anyway.

Not so pleasant: the two expansion CDs are stacked in the wrong order but must be installed in the right order since they patch the original game. So remember: first install Shadows of Undrentide, then Hordes of the Underdark.

And a question: There's a "big font" switch to make dialogs readable at high resolution, but that does not affect the text used for statistics and button labels. Is there some way to replace Bioware's patented eyekiller fantasy font with something more readable?