View Full Version : Making A living Playing MMORPG's....(Wow, DAOC, etc)
I thought it was illegal, but someone seems to be making a big deal of this:
http://www.ige.com/
I do note they are in Hong Kong...are companies like Mythic and Blizzard actually trying to stop this, or have they given up, or is it the Chinese connection preventing them from acting on it?
Stroker Ace
12-02-2005, 02:36 PM
Mythic's stance on IGE as told by Lum:
http://www.quartertothree.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=390474#390474
Lum's comments are interesting, thanks for the thread. It is an obvious threat to a game in several regards.
But is their remedy to this not going after groups like IGE, but banning users they catch instead?
I remember the business back in March about expelling the farmers, but from what I can see in WoW that certainly has not worked...
Derek French
12-02-2005, 02:59 PM
None of this is new. IGE has been around for quite some time. EQ1 still deals with this stuff and its been going on for about 5 years now. Its like the cops fighting grow-ops. You keep shutting them down, but more pop up. They have to protect their games and I wish there was a better way to shut them down.
>>>or have they given up, or is it the Chinese connection preventing them from acting on it?
I think most game companies ban all gold (or item) farmers they caught.
Problem is that its not that easy to monitor this. You just cant search server logs and say "that guy is a gold farmer!" Because you have to prove the transaction where actual money goes from buyer to farmer.
One method that ive thought some time ago is:
a) buy stuff from farmers to get list of cheaty bastards.
b) ban all accounts based on credit card numbers. (all current accounts banned, and impossible to create new ones with that cc number)
This would propably be somewhat more effective than banning single account when farmer gets caught.
Fugitive
12-02-2005, 03:22 PM
One method that ive thought some time ago is:
a) buy stuff from farmers to get list of cheaty bastards.
b) ban all accounts based on credit card numbers. (all current accounts banned, and impossible to create new ones with that cc number)
They can use game card subscriptions instead of using credit cards. Launder collected gold through otherwise valid-looking activities. Use separate accounts for trading and collecting.
These guys are pros at evasion.
Make an economy that is based less on tradable things.
Absolutely limit the amount of tradable currency a given person can make in a certain time span. That is, make it not profitable at all.
Most players will know how and where farmers operate. Have the system scan for activities that these gold sellers do, and simply flag them unable to trade for a few weeks, pending GM approval. That way, legitimate farmers farming for their own benefit could just ask to have the thing lifted, gold sellers couldn't.
Or any other number of ideas that they'll probably never institute because they really don't care about the sellers at all.
ducker
12-02-2005, 03:48 PM
well.. that's an intersting thought...
ake an economy that is based less on tradable things.
in a MMOG... not really sure what type of economy it would really be if you really didn't interact/trade with anyone else in the game.
VegasRobb
12-02-2005, 03:55 PM
Oh I thought this thread was going to ask if it was viable to make a living via MMO item buying/selling.
I'm not sure about a living, but I know a few people who made decent money in various MMOs. Only one of them was able to be fairly consistent on a yearly basis. I remember him telling me that he justified the time investment to his wife by showing her the bank deposits.
Decent = $10k and up.
McBain
12-02-2005, 04:02 PM
I have no problem with gold farming/selling whatsoever. I've never understood the backlash against it. If anything, I figured people would be happy that catassery can be nullified by a $30 charge on their credit cards.
In fact, I'll probably piss you guys off by mentioning that my guild actually sponsors a Chinese gold farmer.
Well, two of them. They play in shifts. 12 hour shift = 200G quota. They make 100 dollars per month, which seems like a pittance for that kind of mind-numbing work, but for these guys it's their best option for getting through school.
We're "sponsoring" them by taking them to MC to pick up some Nightslayer (no Brutality Blade yet!). We help them AoE grind to exceed quota and give them all the essences/BoEs that drop in our runs. One of the guys in our guild is even helping them improve their conversational English.
In a bizarre way, it's kind of the equivalent of those programs where you sponsor an African kid's meals and education, and get yearly progress reports. Only instead of yearly progress reports, we can link an item in gchat for a price-check at any time and get an accurate estimate within 30 seconds. Not bad.
Qenan
12-02-2005, 04:09 PM
One of many reasons I'm glad I'm out of these... I find farming infuriating.
TheWombat
12-02-2005, 05:10 PM
Put me in the camp that really doesn't care about farming. I play a lot of MMOs, and I've never had my subjective game experience adversely affected by people buying stuff with real world currency, nor by farmers per se. Other than getting tells in Engrish. YMMV.
I think (in the long run) only viable option to get rid of farmers is to change game design.
Meaning that games need to get away from grind-for-über-items type of gameplay and make ingame loot widely available (crafted, looted and quested)
Its pretty simple. Harder the item is to get, more people want to buy it. If loot is pretty easy to get, and theres plenty of it around, theres no market for farmers.
Instead of item farming, they can concentrate on PvP and character developement, and stuff like that (stuff that do not require you to camp item A for Y hours)
EDIT: this ofcourse still leaves market for gold farming. I think money is pretty hard to remove from games completely. If there are such things as tradeskill materials for example, people need some form of currency to buy them ingame. And that opens market for gold farmers.
Make an economy that is based less on tradable things.
Isn't an economy pretty much made up of trade?
The link above isn't "Mythic's stance as told by Lum", it's "Lum going off." Mythic's stance is much simpler - "trading in gold offline is a violation of our EULA."
Stroker Ace
12-02-2005, 08:16 PM
Yes well, he asked for Mythic and I gave him Lum. Sorry for not pasting your standard disclaimer on the speech, I thought it was obvious to anyone who read your post that you were speaking for yourself and not your employer.
Graeme Dice
12-02-2005, 09:02 PM
I think (in the long run) only viable option to get rid of farmers is to change game design.
Meaning that games need to get away from grind-for-über-items type of gameplay and make ingame loot widely available (crafted, looted and quested)
Guild Wars pretty much did this, and people still pay for gold to get the armour that costs 1.5 million gold pieces when it has identical stats to the armour that costs 15,000-150,000 gold pieces.
Mark Asher
12-03-2005, 02:05 AM
When I'm trying to mine thorium and I can't find any because there are three to four farmers riding around in each zone hitting all the spawn points, I'm not happy abour farmers.
When I need to quest in a spot like Hearthglenn or Tyr's Hand and farmers there kill me, I'm not happy.
These guys are competing for resources. I want some of those resources. They make them harder to get. Why should I be happy about that?
I know IGE work on my server, but I've never seen them. I do however know that the main farming spots are either rammed full of alliance or have been stripped clean by people like my guildmates. If there are 'illegal' farmers, they've got some work to do...
Kadath
12-03-2005, 11:55 AM
Hate hate hate faring and real life for virtual sales. It pisses me off when they take resources that real players need. They are thugs and assholes and have a mentality that they deserve it more than players do because its their food on the table. Wipe them all out I say!
Sam
Wish people would stop using the term illegal. It isn't illegal to sell fake goods in a fake world. It is against those games EULA.
SlyFrog
12-03-2005, 12:56 PM
Wish people would stop using the term illegal. It isn't illegal to sell fake goods in a fake world. It is against those games EULA.
But illegal is so much more fun to say than breach of contract.
I think IGE pays a cut of the profits to the publishers.
It would be way too easy to ban these guys, or make banning so likely as to ruin the bottomline, but they dont get banned. Far from it, they are wildly successful. So something must be up.
olaf
I think IGE pays a cut of the profits to the publishers.
It would be way too easy to ban these guys, or make banning so likely as to ruin the bottomline, but they dont get banned. Far from it, they are wildly successful. So something must be up.
olaf
And then those publishers take that money and pay off game reviewers to give their mmogs higher ratings!!
_Fury_
12-03-2005, 05:38 PM
Dunno. In EQ, it bothered me. Mostly because you actually *could* twink a character to heights of power unimaginable without a huge bank account. In WoW, unlimited funds + level 15 character = level 15 character who's not especially more powerful than any other 15.
Mostly, though, I farmed one epic mount the hard way. Not a copper was purchased from IGE, and this was before there was such thing as 'Sergeant Discount'. If I bother to get any more, I'm buying 'em direct from China.
Marcus
12-03-2005, 05:43 PM
More people buy gold in WoW then any other game I know. People that would have never done it in EQ are doing it in WoW too.
Honestly when my Rog hits 60 I'll prolly drop the 30 bucks for the 1000gold because shit 30 isnt shit.
wildpokerman
12-03-2005, 06:11 PM
I wonder if banning gold farmers has the same effect as arresting drug dealers, it just makes the price of a wanted commodity increase and keeps the people who avoid the banning in better financial condition.
Also how can paying for gold be bad? We need to get rid of this trade deficit somehow right?
Jab2565
12-03-2005, 08:20 PM
I remember reading in CGW a few months ago about the popularity of farmers and such. Like places in asia where people just sit at the monitor all day farming items and being there in case a gm shows up. It's fricken amazing the money they bring in from what I read.
So far I've never had the chance to run into one or used one, and I'm not sure which side I'm on. Sounds like as long as games use items and virtual loot as an offset for skill, farmers will still be around.
Mark Asher
12-04-2005, 04:45 AM
I think IGE pays a cut of the profits to the publishers.
It would be way too easy to ban these guys, or make banning so likely as to ruin the bottomline, but they dont get banned. Far from it, they are wildly successful. So something must be up.
olaf
There are probably tens of thousands of farmers, and they are good at disguising their transactions. Why do you think it would be easy to catch them?
Qenan
12-04-2005, 07:34 AM
Just look at the volume of loot per account, I would think. Farmer accounts are a lot more active than most.
TheWombat
12-04-2005, 07:38 AM
Just look at the volume of loot per account, I would think. Farmer accounts are a lot more active than most.
I don't know. Some legitimate power gamers probably farm as much or more than gold farmers, or close enough so that you couldn't easily separate them statistically. Given the farming that goes on for components, et al, for raiding consumables and the like, for instance, or for gathering enough loot for an epic mount or two.
VegasRobb
12-04-2005, 07:39 AM
To follow up my earlier post, I chatted up a couple of the people and I mentioned for dollar figures.
The consistent yearly guy says he topped out ~$75K (US) for his best year.
The other guy says he made $40K (US) in one year.
And both guys are in awe of "Yantis" aka www.mysupersales.com . Yantis merged with IGE awhile back (I think), but these guys say that he was a true force of nature in the MMO buying/selling world.
SlyFrog
12-04-2005, 10:31 AM
Makin' der waaaaaaaaayyyyyy, da only way day know how, dat's just a leetle beet moar, den Blizzard will allow.
stusser
12-04-2005, 01:17 PM
Yantis doesn't make his money playing games any more than bill gates makes his money coding windows. Both of them found a niche and created their own business exploiting it. They're businessmen.
The people actually doing the work don't do nearly as well.
SlyFrog
12-04-2005, 03:11 PM
Yantis doesn't make his money playing games any more than bill gates makes his money coding windows. Both of them found a niche and created their own business exploiting it. They're businessmen.
The people actually doing the work don't do nearly as well.
Truer words were never spoken. Saying that the guys who really make the money behind these things make it "playing games" is like saying Phil Knight of Nike makes his money due to his love of personally crafting fine footwear.
Sebmolo
12-04-2005, 07:14 PM
I'm ambivalent - I don't really believe they kill the economy, or at least they don't seem to in WoW. Also, you can get some excellent deals out of them if you hit them just before shift change, as outlined here (http://www.gameguidesonline.com/guides/articles/ggoarticleoctober05_01.asp). :twisted:
John Doyle
12-04-2005, 08:18 PM
The first thing I do upon starting a new MMO, especially if it's been out a while, is go to IGE and buy some currency. Why? Because I play a lot of games and in most cases buying gold will speed up the progress curve in the game and enable me to get to the good parts of the game more quickly.
If you don't like this approach, I can understand your opinion. However, the game designers in nearly every game have set up the economy to work this way. Never forget that time is proportional to money. If you have the time these games will reward your investment. The same applies if you have the money, it's just that you need to work outside the system.
If you'd like to get a feel for how large this market is, go to Ebay and add up the auctions that close in the next 24 hours for WoW. Just do the gold and the number is most likely over $100,000. That doesn't take into a account the approximately 40% of the market that IGE controls.
The sad part is that Blizzard gets none of that money. I'd happily pay them more for an accelerated curve or uber gear to keep up with my more time endowed friends, but they won't take my money. Congrats IGE, you'll take it and deliver me what I want..you win.
stusser
12-04-2005, 09:16 PM
Making money through monster drops and smart bargaining/auctioning is a major part of the game. Making money takes time, just like every other means of advancement like leveling, faction, and PvP honor. Why do you want to deprive yourself of gameplay, particularly on the first playthrough?
If MMOG devs offered a service to level your character to maxlevel for $100, would that be a good deal? Would it make business sense? Would it hurt the integrity of the game? Would it devalue the accomplishment of reaching maxlevel, both for other players and yourself?
The answers to those questions (leading as they may be) aren't totally clear-cut, particularly in games with PvP endstates.
solomani
12-06-2005, 08:53 PM
I remember reading in CGW a few months ago about the popularity of farmers and such. Like places in asia where people just sit at the monitor all day farming items and being there in case a gm shows up. It's fricken amazing the money they bring in from what I read.
So far I've never had the chance to run into one or used one, and I'm not sure which side I'm on. Sounds like as long as games use items and virtual loot as an offset for skill, farmers will still be around.
I read that article as well. Thought it was wired? Anyway its amazing how much $$ they make. I have seen lots of farmers. You get into a conflict with them when you goto a spot (like the Satyrs in Azshura) to make money to buy an epic mount for example. They will try and drive you off in bad-english.
They all seem to be sucky players though so out-killing them and driving them off is easy. At one point the 3 notorious farmers on our server would just ride by if they saw me farming for my mount.
solomani
12-06-2005, 08:58 PM
If MMOG devs offered a service to level your character to maxlevel for $100, would that be a good deal? Would it make business sense? Would it hurt the integrity of the game? Would it devalue the accomplishment of reaching maxlevel, both for other players and yourself?
Isn't that exactly what happens with UO these days?
I am neutral to farmers to be honest. But I think they do impact the item market. If you compare the prices of items between Alliance and Horde the horde side is way cheaper. I suspect this is because most players play allies so the big market attracts more farmers further exacerbating the difference in price.
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