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Jason McCullough
01-22-2003, 09:12 PM
I can't find the old thread about the book, but I said I'd post more when I finished reading, so here goes.

This book is sheer torture to get through. There's only so many descriptions of people picking children up by their hair and shooting them in the back of the head that you can take without hurling the book out of sight. Be forewarned if you buy this; it's not a pleasant endeavor.

It's worth it, however. Goldhagen's argument, basically:

Eliminationist anti-semitism was one of the central defining features of Weimar German culture. He provides an absolute mountain of evidence that it was unobjectional conventional wisdom at the time. The statement that "the average Weimar German wasn't an an anti-semite" is ludicrous on its face when contrasted with the cultural documents of the time period. The not-even-remotely-constrained public discussions of whether the Jews should simply be relocated outside of Germany, or actually murdered, long before the Nazi party was created, is particularly damning.

Building on this, the existing explanations for why individual Germans killed Jews are wrong. They try to blame "the Nazi system" in some manner for what happened, instead of focusing on the beliefs and actions of the individual perpetrators. He uses the stories of the Police Battalions, which were tasked with a), maintaining order in the occupied territories, and b), eradicating Jews, to point out how none of the common exculpatory theories match the evidence.

For example, there's the "just obeying orders," "only extreme elements did it," and the "heat of combat" theories. These are falsified by the evidence.

Many police battalion commanders made it quite clear, on repeated occasions, that anyone who did not feel up to the task was not required to engage in the killing operations. Only a miniscule number of members took this option, and contrary to the insistence of defendants at Nuremburg, no one has been able to find a *single case* that holds up where someone was significantly punished for refusing to kill a Jew.

The police battalions killed something like a million Jews, at a minimum. They weren't composed of "extreme, crackpot, Jew-hating elements" as the conventional wisdom goes; they were a virtual cross-section of the non-military eligible male population. The equivalent of guys from the suburbs, with kids, offered no objection to carrying out their orders to not only murder Jews, but to systematically eliminate Jewish women, children, infants, the elderly, and the infirm.

Killing actions were not carried out in "chaos of combat" situations. The police battalions had reguarl social events; commanders had their significant others visit them; at the end of a full day of genocide they'd go back to their regular barrack; and they didn't even consider an occasion of genocide all that noteworthy. All that happened was a bigger alcohol ration. Occasionally a commander would provide a justification that they were killing them because "they supported partisan activity" or somesuch, so I suppose the case can be made (oh, and it has) that killing the Jewish men was somehow less bad. However, they systematically shot infants and the elderly, so rebellion suppression explanation simply cannot stand.

As further support for the German view of Jewry, he spends a few chapters documenting how Germany didn't put Jews to work for their production value: they didn't even attempt to get useful economic value out of them. They implemented the logical consequence of the statement "Jews do not do honest, real work, and they hate it": they forced the Jews to work simply because their considered it so inimical to their "nature" that it was punishment.

Similarly, the Jewish death marches that occured towards the end of the war served no purpose other than punishment by torture. They were in some cases explicitly ordered not to kill the Jews enroute; however, their destinations were pointless (in the middle of forest, for example), the Soviet army was right behind them, and their weren't treated in a manner were useful economic production could be extracted from them in the future. The marches were done simply to torture the Jews to death.

Basically, he argues that the "average German" in this period was apparently perfectly fine with killing Jews, and not just killing individuals, but engaging in the genocidal act of murdering all members of the race. Nazi eliminationism wasn't something Hitler tricked the nation into doing; it was the logical outgrowth of the virulent anti-semitism in Germany during the Weimar period.

My summary of the book:
Those who had a hand in the genocide are fully culpable (desk murderers, individual killers, those who identified Jews knowing full well the consequences, etc.) Goldhagen specifically states that he rejects the notion of collective guilt; metaphorically standing there and watching doesn't make you guilty of genocide, even if you think the Jews do need to be killed. For those that engaged in the killing, however, or were directly involved in the killing operations, there are no excuses. They quite clearly believed the conventional wisdom of the time that Jews were a direct threat to Germany, and the world, and that the good of humanity required their destruction.

From the epilogue:

This study of the Holocaust and its perpetrators assigns to their beliefs paramount importance. It reverse the Marxian dictum, in holding that consciousness determined being. Its conclusion that the eliminationist antisemitic German political culture, the genesis of which must be and is explicable historically, was the prime mover of both the Nazi leadership and ordinary Germans in the persecution and extermination of the Jews, and therefore was the Holocaust's principal cause, may at once be hard to believe for many and commonsensical to others. The evidence that so many ordinary people did maintain at the center of their worldview palpably absurd beliefs about Jews like those that Hitler articulated in Mein Kampf is overwhelming. And the evidence has been available for years, indeed available to any observer in Germany during the 1930s. But because the beliefs have seemed to use so ridiculous, indeed worthy of the ravings of madmen, the truth that they were the common property of the German people has been and will likely continue to be hard to accept by many who are beholden to our common-sense view of the world, or who find the implications of the truth too disquieting.

Germany during the Nazi Period was inhabited by people animated by beliefs about Jews that made them willing to become consenting mass executioners. The study of the perpetrators, especially of police battalions, who were a representative cross section of German men - and therefore are indicative of what ordinary Germans were like regarding Jews - compels us, precisely because there were representative of Germans, to draw this conclusion about the German people. Being ordinary in the Germany that gave itself to Nazism was to have been a member of an extraordinary, lethal political culture. That German political culture was producing such voluntaristic killers suggests, in turn, that perhaps this was a society that had undergone other important and fundamental changes, perhaps cognitive and moral ones. The study of the Holocaust's perpetrators thus provies a window through which German society can be viewed and examined in a new light. It demands that important features of the society be concieved anew. It suggests further that the Nazis were the most profound revolutionaries of modern times and that the revolution that they wrought during their but brief suzerainty in Germany was the most extreme and thoroughgoing in the annals of western civilization. It was, above all, a cognitive-moral revolution which reversed processes that had been shaping Europe for centuries. This book is ultimately not only about the perpetrators of the Holocaust. Because the perpetrators of the Holocaust were Germany's representative citizens, this book is about Germany during the Nazi period and before, its people and its culture.

Anonymous
01-22-2003, 10:14 PM
How accurate and reliable do you think the book is? How have reviews treated it in that department? I'm not trying to be insolent with that question, but if I'm going to take something as fact I want some supporting evidence, or at least tacit approval.

I generally use what I call a 50% rule: looking at the cited data, I assume that they're off by half. Are SUVs THAT dangerous? Did the Germans kill THAT many jews? Cut the number in half and see if it's still relevant.

Jason McCullough
01-22-2003, 10:43 PM
Well, I haven't seen a scholarly outcry about him making up data, and they're all public records, so no. There's a small group of people who attack the book, but it's such an Holocaust researcher insider politics thing I can't make heads or tails of it.

DrCrypt
01-23-2003, 01:11 AM
Jason, your description immediately put it on my "To be read" list. But while I have no doubt that I could read a book that involved swinging Jewish babies into walls by their ankles and machine-gunning old Jewish men out for their morning stroll down the Taber, I have serious reservations that I could stomach such stupefying intellectual jargon such as this:

. Its conclusion that the eliminationist antisemitic German political culture, the genesis of which must be and is explicable historically, was the prime mover of both the Nazi leadership and ordinary Germans in the persecution and extermination of the Jews, and therefore was the Holocaust's principal cause, may at once be hard to believe for many and commonsensical to others.
Translation: "It is hard for us to believe the fact that the attitudes leading to Germany's genocide of the Jews were in place long before the Nazis."

Herr Goldhagen, what the hell was that? I find it ironic that Goldhagen's entire book is basically a scathing denunciation of German death camps when he has set up a miniature Auschwitz for the English language in each sentence, razor-wired all around with trite intellectual phrases, false verbal limbs, meaningless words and nouns unnecessarily modified into adjectives that prevents any aspect of meaning from escaping.

Here's a famous George Orwell take on what I'm talking about:

I am going to translate a passage of good English into modern English of the worst sort. Here is a well-known verse from Ecclesiastes:

I returned and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

Here it is in modern English:

Objective consideration of contemporary phenomena compels the conclusion that success or failure in competitive activities exhibits no tendency to be commensurate with innate capacity, but that a considerable element of the unpredictable must invariably be taken into account.
No wonder no one reads anything besides Lord of the Rings anymore.

That said, Jason, great summary and I'll probably pick it up. It sounds fascinating.

Edit: For some reason in my original message, I kept on calling Goldhagen "Gultahung".

Jason McCullough
01-23-2003, 01:28 AM
He does need to be beaten with the Orwell stick; he's a eye-numbing writer. I think it was originally a dissertation, which kind of explains it.

Oh, and I forget to mention the pictures. I don't know where he dug these up, and maybe I'm the only one, but they're the worst Holocaust pictures I've ever seen. Page 407 has a soldier standing in a field somewhere in the Ukraine. He's carefully aiming his gun at the head of a Jewish woman who's about five feet away, who's kind of half-cowering. It if it was just that, I'd probably be inured to it; big deal, flip the page. But she's holding her fucking kid.

Basically, the execution of a mother and child was specifically staged for the camera. That one fucked with my head a lot more than the pictures of charred bodies, or emaciated skeletons. Jesus christ on a stick, what sort of mindset does someone have to be in to shoot a defenseless woman holding her kid, and ask someone to take a picture to remember it by? The look on his face is the worst, too; you know that look of careful concentration snipers have in the movies?

As Goldhagen points out, photographing torture, executions, and just plain humiliation of Jews was quite common. It's like the entire country just dived headfirst into insanity.

Jason McCullough
01-23-2003, 01:52 AM
Ah, found some discussion of the book here (http://www2.h-net.msu.edu/~german/discuss/goldhagen/). Basically, the old guard of holocaust researchers didn't like it; they say he left out lots of Germans disagreeing about killing the Jews in the Weimar period.

Then all gang up on him at the Holocaust museum and make themselves look like asses. Amazingly, some German critics went to lengths to point that Goldhagen is Jewish; what the fuck?

Then it degenerates into researcher bickering.

My question: ok, for the sake of argument throw out his work at the beginning that the researchers object to: namely, that anti-semitism was a pervasive consensus in Germany. That begs the question: why did at least 38,000 (his minimum estimate) perfectly average Germans by and large have no objections to carrying out the day-to-day murder of Jews? The rest of his statements appear to stand.

After searching around google, here's the bits I can't believe about the criticism:

Some people manage to assert, with the scholarly equivalent of a straight face, that he doesn't "give enough credence to what those on trial for war crimes said about why they did it." God knows you can trust the words of a genocidal killer when you put him on trial for his life.

I swear to god, there's apparently a significant number of researchers that think the book is a Zionist plot. Finkelstein, here (http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/id83_m.htm).

"The Holocaust" is practically the Zionist version of the Nazi Holocaust, says Finkelstein. It is an interpretive model that has been given academic respectability since the Six Day War in 1967 by radical US Zionists. If one follows it out to the end, this thinking divides the world into potentially dangerous non-Jews and 'Jews who are always innocent', a Manichaean dichotomy that of course has nothing to do with scholarship."

????? I wish there was a capslock version of the question mark.

DrCrypt
01-23-2003, 02:55 AM
The Holocaust" is practically the Zionist version of the Nazi Holocaust, says Finkelstein. It is an interpretive model that has been given academic respectability since the Six Day War in 1967 by radical US Zionists. If one follows it out to the end, this thinking divides the world into potentially dangerous non-Jews and 'Jews who are always innocent', a Manichaean dichotomy that of course has nothing to do with scholarship."

????? I wish there was a capslock version of the question mark.
I think the question mark is already the capslock version of the back-slash. At least it is on my keyboard.

Anyway, what is even more perplexing about his not-so-subtle "The Jews got what was coming to them" creed is that, with a name like Finkelstein, he appears to be working against the International Hessidic Conspiracy... from the inside!

SpoofyChop
01-23-2003, 05:13 AM
Um...1996 called and told me to tell you guys that they want their thread back.

Seriously though, you guys are just scratching the surface of the whole Goldhagen, Finklestein, "Shoah Business" debate.

There are MOUNDS of articles, book reviews, denunciations, etc about this whole thing. From years ago I might add again.

For starters, there were many people who absolutely contested that Goldhagen's conclusions were commensurate with teh evidence. (Did you like that? It was postmodernism combined with leet speak!)

Also, there were like entire segments of the media lined up to denounce Finklestein as a self-hating Jew.

Anyway, we're seeing Europe devolve into anti-Semitism yet again with the rampant anti-Israel movement which hides a not-so-subtle anti-Semitism, so maybe this is topical again.

Jason McCullough
01-23-2003, 12:50 PM
Um...1996 called and told me to tell you guys that they want their thread back.

Seriously though, you guys are just scratching the surface of the whole Goldhagen, Finklestein, "Shoah Business" debate.

There are MOUNDS of articles, book reviews, denunciations, etc about this whole thing. From years ago I might add again.

For starters, there were many people who absolutely contested that Goldhagen's conclusions were commensurate with teh evidence. (Did you like that? It was postmodernism combined with leet speak!)

Also, there were like entire segments of the media lined up to denounce Finklestein as a self-hating Jew.

Anyway, we're seeing Europe devolve into anti-Semitism yet again with the rampant anti-Israel movement which hides a not-so-subtle anti-Semitism, so maybe this is topical again.

Yeah, that's the first thing that came to mind. Did their mothers not teach them to refrain from pointing out the Jewishness of researchers they disagree with?

Annoying, there's not that much online; 1996 was a little too early for it to be all over the net.

DrCrypt
01-24-2003, 01:06 AM
Anyway, we're seeing Europe devolve into anti-Semitism yet again with the rampant anti-Israel movement which hides a not-so-subtle anti-Semitism, so maybe this is topical again.
Exactly, Spoofy. Also - Europe's rampant anti-America movement which hides a not-so-subtle anti-Americanism at the core.

Chris Nahr
01-24-2003, 03:52 AM
So Goldhagen must be right because Europeans don't like America. Well, thanks for clearing that up. :roll:

Erik
01-24-2003, 05:41 AM
Along with Europe's rekindled spirit of Jew hating (or maybe it's more of a rekindled spirit of open, unapologetic Jew hating), there's the curious movement in Germany to recognize Germans as legitimate victims of WW2. From the NYT: In Their Side of World War II, the Germans Also Suffered (http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/18/arts/18SCHN.html). Those two things together can't be good. You know we've run out of rare, special collector's edition victim groups when the Nazis finally get their turn.

The person who sent me the link suggested a nice follow up article:


Auschwitz Guards: Shoveling those gassed bodies into the ovens was hard work! It wasn't all fun and Nazism.

Jack
01-24-2003, 05:56 AM
My in-laws are German (one was in Dresden during the fire-bombing and still has a healthy hatred for Churchill), and I'm surprised at how open their anti-semitism is. They're quick to state that the Nazis were animals, but also make side remarks about Jews owning the banks, being landlords (funny, my father-in-law is a professional landlord), and whatever else comes to mind.

It's not just the in-laws, it's the other family members I've met from the Continent. They're just more racist in general; maybe it's the proximity of so many other cultures in Europe. It's not that it's necessarily hateful, but their quicker to pigeon-hole people based on heritage.

Just an observation. I know my in-laws aren't representative of an entire nation....

Jason McCullough
01-24-2003, 11:50 AM
So Goldhagen must be right because Europeans don't like America. Well, thanks for clearing that up. :roll:

Huh?

Jason McCullough
05-10-2003, 12:25 PM
On a related note, the NYT has an interesting article today talking about how police trainees get a run through the Holocaust museum (http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/10/arts/design/10COPS.html).

"The recruits heard a lecture, accompanied by shocking photos, about police practices in Nazi Germany from Peter Black, a museum historian. And Ms. Becker, associate director for law enforcement outreach for the Anti-Defamation League, explained the similarities between the mandates of the local police in the Third Reich and those of the recruits. "

Brian Koontz
05-10-2003, 04:16 PM
I've never studied Nazism at all and I have several other things on my plate so who knows if I ever will, but can you guys answer a simple question for me to save me the potential later research?

Why did Nazis (or casual Germans according to Goldhagen's book) think that killing all Jews (at least within Germany) was a good thing? I've never favored "They were insane" as an explanation... that's more like a copout designed to avoid the issue. So assuming we're not trying to avoid the issue, what's the answer?

Troy S Goodfellow
05-10-2003, 04:44 PM
I've never studied Nazism at all and I have several other things on my plate so who knows if I ever will, but can you guys answer a simple question for me to save me the potential later research?

Why did Nazis (or casual Germans according to Goldhagen's book) think that killing all Jews (at least within Germany) was a good thing? I've never favored "They were insane" as an explanation... that's more like a copout designed to avoid the issue. So assuming we're not trying to avoid the issue, what's the answer?

For Nazi ideologues, Jews were subhuman plotters, poisoning German blood and society by their existence and undermining Aryan strength by their schemes. Jewish bankers and socialists were responsible for the German humiliation at Versailles. Though these thoughts were rooted in the historic European antipathy to Jews, the peculiar mass psychology of interwar Germany made it a breeding ground for more extreme reactions.

The Final Solution Europe wide extermination plan didn't get going until the war was started. Before the war, driving the Jews out was seen to be enough by many. But when you start conquering places and the expelled Jews had nowhere else to flee to, extermination just seemed to make sense.

I recommend "Conspiracy" (http://us.imdb.com/Title?0266425) - a renactment of the 1942 Wansee conference that decided the fate of Europes Jews. The nonchalance of the whole thing is quite chilling, with those who question the extermination basing their arguments on labor needs instead of humanity.

Troy

Anders Hallin
05-10-2003, 05:36 PM
Speaking of the "they're insane" explanation to the general evil deeds in the world, I'm getting pretty tired of being accused of being an apologist for pointing out that most actions commited has been logical from the point of view of those commiting them. :(
Not so much here, but generally.

Jason McCullough
05-10-2003, 06:32 PM
Yeah, what TSG said. "Jews are an evil unleashed upon the world" was an entirely uncontroversial statement at the time.

Troy S Goodfellow
05-10-2003, 06:57 PM
Yeah, what TSG said. "Jews are an evil unleashed upon the world" was an entirely uncontroversial statement at the time.

Well, I wouldn't go this far. It was quite controversial in intelligent circles. Most "ordinary" Anti-Semites had more of a distaste for Jews than a disgust.

Though Anti-Semitism was widespread, it waxed and waned considerably in the half-century leading to WWII. Bismarck's banker was a Jew, Jews rose to high station in German society. Many Jews served faithfully in the German army in the Great War. And though anti-Semitism was widespread in Europe, it never reached the fever pitch that it did under Nazi control. Italy would certainly never have rounded up Jews for execution unless the German influence was there. Nazi Anti-Semitism was certainly rooted in culture-wide historical beliefs, but it manifested itself in an anomalous brutality unseen in Western Europe since the Reformation. Were it not for the myth of the "stab in the back" of 1918 (socialists, Jews and bankers were the perpetrators - and became synonymous) it is worth wondering if Anti-Semitism could have reached this fever pitch.

To ask why it happened is kind of like asking why Rwanda spiralled into genocide, or why the Albigensian crusade happened. Humans are quite capable of horrible things when grasped in a mass hysteria.

Troy

Jason McCullough
05-10-2003, 07:00 PM
Well, I meant in popular culture. Like, say, as uncontroversial as "blacks are inferior" was in 1950 Georgia. Goldhagen goes over it.