Motorcycle Helmets

[walTer]

I got some good advice when I asked about a Buell... bascially not to get it and I didn't.

I ended up getting a Yamaha VStar Classic- a 650 that looks and rides much bigger, nice cruiser style, very quick and 6500 out the door. I got a good deal and with 900 miles I am very very happy with my choice.

I will probably go bigger in a few years- prob to the Classic 1100 but I can cruise all day at 75, and do 90 if necessary- which it is not.

So my question is about helmets. And I have no windshield yet.. soon but it is 450 bucks.. so i gotta wait a bit.

I currenly have a 3/4 with a face shield. My question is should I go for a full face or stick with what I have--

I guess I am wonding what people like about full face helmets...especially if I am sans windshield.

I have done a lot of riding on LA freeways so I tend to ponder safety issues as I try to avoid school busses that cut me off.

[Rywill]

Congrats on the new bike!

The only reason to get a full-face helmet is for the extra protection. They're also a little quieter, but the big reason is because they protect your face in a crash. A 3/4 helmet, even one with a shatterproof snap-on faceshield or something similar, will protect your skull but not your face (the shields just don't stay on in a crash--they will keep stuff from getting thrown into your eyes while you ride, but they're not crashworthy). You can get some pretty fucked-up facial injuries in a motorcycle crash, as I'm sure you can imagine. OTOH, 3/4 helmets are cheaper, cooler in the summer, and easier to store in a saddlebag. If it were me, though, I would (and did) buy a full-face helmet.

[Lunch of Kong]

So, last weekend was a big biker rally here in Austin. Friend of ours had EMT duty. *His unit alone* responded to 77 motorcycle accidents that day.

All in all, there were over 700 motorocyle related injuries over the weekend.

Get the full face helmet. :)

[Nick Walter]

Motorcycles are fun until the first time you hit the pavement going 40. When that happened I was very very thankful I was wearing a leather jacket, jeans, and a full helmet. Despite being in the middle of the summer, I had no exposed skin, so I still have all my skin.

[walTer]

heh, well let me give a bit of self background- I work in a law firm that represents motorcycle riders involved in accidents. It is a very sobering job sometimes so I tend to ride with extra care, took the safety class, taking another one and frankly enjoy the heck out of riding. Everyone in our office does.

That being said, I always ride with boots, gloves, jacket etc...road rash can be...ugly.

Oddly though from all our clients, I have seen very few actual facial injuries- head yes- there are still idiots that spend 20K on a bike and buy a 19 dollar novelty helmet---I guess to protect the few remaining brain cells they have?

What about comfort and view- I have tried a few on but have never ridden with one- but they *seem* to cut down a bit on your vision...maybe riding with one is different ?

Ventilation? Are they hot as to be uncomfortable or do the vents let in enough air to keep your head reasonably cool?

Seeing the pavement go by at 40 or 70 is indeed sobering and I prefer safety over minimal discomfort.

[Union Carbide]

I never had a problem with my full-face helmet getting too hot, but then mine was white.

I recommend using a labelmaker to put your name, blood type, and known medical allergies (penicillin, asprin, etc) on the side or back of your helmet near the bottom. Also make one for the chin that says DO NOT REMOVE HELMET UNLESS YOU ARE A MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL.

These are both key if you have an accident that knocks you unconcious.

The motorcycle shop I used to go to had a stack of DO NOT REMOVE HELMET stickers that they gave away free, not sure how widespread that is.

[Rywill]

Nick - did your jeans hold up in that crash? I've never been in a wreck, but I've always heard jeans won't protect you at more than low speed, because they're basically just thick cotton. I sometimes ride in jacket / gloves / jeans / boots, and I always wonder if I'm being a total idiot. For longer trips and commuting I usually have riding pants on, but if I'm like going to a movie I often don't.

What about comfort and view- I have tried a few on but have never ridden with one- but they *seem* to cut down a bit on your vision...maybe riding with one is different ?
This has gotten much, much better in the last 10 years. I still have my old full-face helmet (which is now my passenger helmet), and it's amazing the difference between that and my modern helmet. It doesn't cut down on my side vision at all (the opening stretches way back on both sides), and only a tiny bit on the bottom, nothing that you use. I can glance down at my instruments without moving my head, for example.

What people are often more concerned about is losing hearing, which is true--you hear less with a full-face than you do a 3/4 (and much less than with a half). Of course, that can also be good since longtime cyclists often suffer some hearing loss. But some people say they don't want a full-face because they're worried they won't hear a car when changing lanes, or something. Me, I think that's bunk. You should look for cars anyway. I always thought people who said that really just liked the biker look of a 3/4 better, and were trying to justify it--like people who fit loud pipes and say it's so that other cars can hear them.

Ventilation? Are they hot as to be uncomfortable or do the vents let in enough air to keep your head reasonably cool?
This is their real falling-down, IMO. The really modern helmets have pretty good ventilation, but it's just not nearly as good as having a 3/4 helmet, especially if you're stopped or moving slowly. Sitting in bumper-to-bumper traffic in the summer, it doesn't really matter that you have a couple puny vents on the front and back of your helmet. Of course, at low speeds you can pop the visor, but then you have some risk of eye injury if you're not wearing sunglasses or something.

At speed or at any decent temperature (say, below 90), you won't be hot. With a white or silver helmet (which you should get anyway because it's much safer) you can probably go up to 95. After that, you're going to be hot unless you're moving.

If you're willing to spend the cash, you could also pick up a "modular" helmet that switches between full-face and 3/4. They're a little louder than true full-faces (because of the seam) and the crappy ones might be risky in a crash. But get one with metal-on-metal latches and they (according to MCN, the Consumer Reports of the motorcycling world) hold up as well as a true FF in a crash. I have a Schuberth Concept I modular helmet (Schuberth is a subsidiary of BMW, which they spun off for liability reasons), and it's terrific. Great ventilation, comfortable, reasonably quiet, and it even has a built in sun visor that drops down inside the clear visor when you want it.

I second UC's advice to put a label warning people not to remove the helmet. You can find them in many bike shops and almost any online bike accessory retailer. (I think blood type and allergies are probably useless--no doctor or EMT is going to trust what's written on your motorcycle helmet, so it probably doesn't save you any time).

[Wholly Schmidt]

(I think blood type and allergies are probably useless--no doctor or EMT is going to trust what's written on your motorcycle helmet, so it probably doesn't save you any time).
Why? Am I overlooking something obvious? I don't see any reason why people would lie about it. "Gotcha! That's not my blood type, now I'm dead! Fooled you!"

[Chris Nahr]

I think it's because you might have borrowed the helmet from someone else, or you might just be dumb and copied the data incorrectly...

[bago]

I have a friend who crashed at 90. He forgot to zip up one seam of his kevler+ suit. Now has a nice patch of road rash.

Moral of the story? Nevr expose anything.

[Nick Walter]

Nick - did your jeans hold up in that crash? I've never been in a wreck, but I've always heard jeans won't protect you at more than low speed, because they're basically just thick cotton. I sometimes ride in jacket / gloves / jeans / boots, and I always wonder if I'm being a total idiot. For longer trips and commuting I usually have riding pants on, but if I'm like going to a movie I often don't.


Yes, my jeans held up. But my upper torso/head hit first, so the jeans weren't really put to the test. I did get a nice concussion and bruise stretching from my left ankle to my left shoulder. I'm just lucky I got thrown clear of the bike and there was very light traffic at the time so when I flew across the road I didn't get hit by any oncoming traffic.

[Ryan A]

Cool! Another motorcycle thread! I was hoping one of these would pop up -- it's my favorite thing to talk about.

As far as helmets go, it's all about risk mitigation. If you are 100% averse to risk, you probably shouldn't be riding a motorcycle. Heck, you shouldn't be leaving your house.

That said, I strongly recommend a full-face helmet. I have a friend who managed to break every tooth in his mouth and had his entire face rearranged when he crashed his bike wearing a 3/4 helmet. Whenever I ride my Ducati, I know I'm going to be taking a few risks on the twisty roads so I always wear the full-face. Also, my full-face helmet has saved me a number of times from flying rocks. At highway and freeway speeds, a bit of gravel kicked out of the treads of that car or truck in front of you can do quite a bit of damage if it hits you in the face. I even had to replace a helmet from a small rock that hit it when I was on the freeway behind a gravel truck. I'd rather replace my helmet than my teeth any day.

As strong of an advocate of full-face helmets as I am, when I'm going to ride a cruiser for a leisurely ride in the countryside on a warm sunny day, I'll put on a 3/4 helmet because, let's be honest... it feels much better. I'm never going to ride aggressively on a cruiser and I am confident enough in my own abilities to avoid the occasional (or frequent if any Canadians are around) bad driver to feel comfortable with the additional risk a less-than-full-face helmet induces.

For specific brand recommendations, I'd advise you to listen to other people's comments about ventilation and that's about it. Comfort, fogging (or lack therof) and wind noise are all determined by the shape of your head. The Arai that's the Best Helmet Ever for Joe Roundhead might not work for you if you have a Frankenhead (square) or Beakerhead (narrow). The best thing you can do is find a good local motorcycle shop with a wide selection of helmets and try them all on... if it's a good shop, they'll have knowledgeable staff that can help you. If it's a Harley shop, try something else. :wink:

If getting a good deal is more important to you than supporting the local economy, I highly recommend Helmet Harbor http://www.helmetharbor.com/ as an excellent online resource. Call the guy and he'll be able to give you really specific advice on every helmet he carries. That's where I got my current helmet -- a KBC VR-1 -- which I'll be looking to replace this summer, as some experts advise replacing your helmet every three years.

Wow -- I really got going on this topic -- sorry for the length.

[Rywill]

I think it's because you might have borrowed the helmet from someone else, or you might just be dumb and copied the data incorrectly...
True, but I think it's even more than that. You could be conscious and alert and tell the doctor your blood type is A+ and he's still going to give you O- until he does a test himself. If he takes your word for it and gives you a transfusion and it turns out it's wrong and you die, he's going to get his license yanked and his ass sued to kingdom come, because nobody is going to believe it's reasonable to accept the patient's claim when you can do a 2-minute test to be sure you're not about to kill them. That's my understanding, anyway--any doctors in the house?

I agree with other-Ryan about trying on the helmet first. I wouldn't buy one over the net--I'd go try them on in a shop. Wear it for a few minutes and then take it off and look in a mirror. If you see red spots anywhere on your forehead, try a different helmet. (The helmet should feel overall a little tight, because it will get a little looser as the padding breaks in, but there shouldn't be any "pressure spots.") I made the mistake of buying a helmet without doing this, and ended up with one that didn't fit my head right and gave me headaches if I wore it for more than an hour or two at a time, which totally sucked. It eventually got stolen and I got my new one that I love.

[walTer]

All good stuff- good insight.

I have to say, riding the bike even in traffic makes getting from here to there so much nicer. Yeah it has its dangers but really most can be avoided with defensive driving.

I will be looking at full face helmets to find one right for me. As for covering up, exposed skin will loose every time.

BTW, for a reasonably priced bike, good power, not too heavy and a joy to ride, I gotta give kudos to the VStar Classic.

[Ryan A]

I agree with other-Ryan about trying on the helmet first. I wouldn't buy one over the net--I'd go try them on in a shop.

Great.. so does that mean I'm The Other? :wink:

Regarding my internet recommendation, Ryan's right (confusing isn't it?) about trying one on in a shop being the best bet.. wait.. I said that too.. but I'm Ryan... forget it.

What I mean to say is, if you want to be a sneaky cheap bastard, the thing to do is try helmets on in a store until you find the right one, then go order it on the internet for $50-$150 less.

[Rywill]

I have to say, riding the bike even in traffic makes getting from here to there so much nicer. Yeah it has its dangers but really most can be avoided with defensive driving.
That is nowhere more true than where we are, too--LA's increasingly insane traffic + legal to split lanes means you get places much faster if you have a motorcycle. The increasingly insane parking situation also means you spend less time (and money) trying to park once you get there, too.

I tell myself the same thing about defensive riding, but I don't know whether it's true. It's definitely true that novice or inattentive motorcyclists are in much, much greater danger, but I think even a good rider is taking more risk than you would have driving a car. Maybe not as much as people think--bikes are extremely good at avoiding accidents if ridden well--but it's more.

[fire]

I have a bike in San Diego and I find it scary to ride: it's a 250 so I won't touch the freeways, but even on the side streets everybody's going a billion miles an hour without looking (for anything bigger than a Miata) before pulling into traffic.

As far as helmets go, yes try them on, and yes spend money on them. You know how it goes: if you have a $15 head, you can get a $15 helmet. I have a full-faced black Shoei a couple years old that gives me no problems except in the winter when my head gets cold from the draft coming in the closed ventilation slots. In the summer unless I ride very slowly there's enough of a breeze to keep my head and face cool. My biggest problem with it is wind noise at 50mph+ but I think that's pretty typical.

Don't buy cheap. I used to have a $50 junk helmet but the padding decomposed within 4 months of use and I had to wear increasing thicknesses of towels on my head under the helmet. Plus it was this awful dirt color.

[mouselock]

Since this is kinda turning into a default motorcycle discussion:

I've always wanted one. I'm going to be moving to a place where I could ride one (especially on backroads and the like) relatively safely. (Salt Lake City; I'd want to ride it on surface streets and probably up onto less glorious roads into the mountain). I don't, however, want to die horribly because someone else is a moron. (I'm okay with dying horribly if I'm a moron, I figure that's like the breath of Darwin in my ear or something if it happens.)

Any suggestions for places to start gathering information, knowing absolutely nothing about these things?

[fire]

Get a handbook, take the permit test.
Find a buddy that rides. Talk to him about riding. Maybe you can come along as a passenger a few times. Out to lunch or something.
Then, when you decide you like it, take a motorcycle training / safety course. You'll learn to ride a small bike, get lots of dumbass-avoiding maneuvers under your belt, and also get your license.

[walTer]

I highly recommend the safety course- the one in califorina is 198 dollars and is the best money spent if you are gonna start riding.

There are so many things you learn and would never know but for the test.

Oh, and do NOT forget to get as much uninsured motorist coverage as you can get on your policy- if you go down and the guy only has 15K of liablity coverage, you are hosed.

[Nick Walter]

Another important motorcycle safety tip, don't ride a bike with worn or aged tires. At all.

I used to ride cheapo bikes that I'd buy used for a couple of hundred dollars cash. That's what led to my accident. A combination of a ten inch bolt left in a sharp curve in the road and an old tire in need of replacement combined into a blowout and left me lying on the pavement wondering how many bones were broken.

[Rywill]

As with others, I very much recommend the safety course. They're usually done through the Motorcycle Safety Foundation (http://www.msf-usa.org/), which licenses schools in most states. I took it with my girlfriend--she had no experience, I had been riding for 18 years. She liked it, and I actually learned one thing during the class. It's good stuff.

I'd also recommend soliciting opinions from people before you buy your first bike, and buying your first one used (so you don't spend a lot of money on something that you might end up not liking; and so you're not risking an expensive bike every time you drop it. Which you will.) Ride well within your ability and only in good conditions for the first several months.

It's not for everybody, but I think it's something everyone should try at least once. I absolutely love it, and I think most people who try it seem to like it.

[Ryan A]

Any suggestions for places to start gathering information, knowing absolutely nothing about these things?

Motorcycle Consumer News. The best motorcycle-related publication money can buy. Subscribe for life.

[Lunch of Kong]

come along as a passenger a few times. Out to lunch or something.

Be sure to carry an empty gas container with you too, because the only socially-acceptable reason for a guy to be riding in someone's bitch seat is to get gas.

[Rywill]

MCN is a great publication and I also have been a longtime subscriber, but it's not really geared towards new riders. It does have awesome information about bikes, though, and the only motorcycle reviews you can really trust. They also publish a biannual (I think) Used Motorcycle Price Guide which is invaluable if you're looking to pick up a used bike.

[Ryan A]

MCN is a great publication and I also have been a longtime subscriber, but it's not really geared towards new riders.

They've been running quite a few articles and series about various training techniques, though. While these are certainly not stand-ins for an actual class, it does help one make an informed decision about which company/service to sign up with for your training.

My biggest gripe with the publication is the fact that they don't post articles from their back-issues to the web. Apparently they do well enough by selling back issues to keep the embargo up.

[Rywill]

I hate that too. Although I generally don't begrudge them the cash, it's definitely annoying to have to order something and wait for it rather than getting the info now. I wish they would just let me pay for a download.

[Jason Levine]

Hmmm, I read this thread and admire you riders who have the good sense to protect yourselves, then I look down at the street from my office in Illinois and I see riders in t-shirts and shorts and no helmet at all (no helmet law in Illinois). I would say that over 90 percent of the riders I see here in Illinois wear no helmet, some of them are even people I would otherwise consider rational.

I had a client do time on a reckless homicide charge because he and his girlfriend passenger weren't wearing helmets. He lost it on a freeway exist ramp and collided with a truck. Her head hit the side of the truck. She would have survived if she had been wearing a helmet. (The reckless homicide charge was the direct result of speeding, not the lack of a helmet, but, obviously, if they had been wearing helmets, he doesn't go to jail.) But every rider I see around here must have the "it's not going to happen to me" syndrome.

[walTer]

People ask us all the time if we will help to overturn the helmet laws...I just tell them that we don't do that kind of political law.

Sad really.

The 2 current major head injury cases we have, both were wearing novelty helmets...one was a nurse and she also forgot to tell us that she was double the legal limit for alchohol too.

Sadly it takes an *event* sometimes to learn a lesson.

[Jack Black]

I love riding and though I may feel comfortable without a helmet, it's something everyone has to decide for themselves.

Certain states do not have helmet laws and sometimes it's a breath of fresh air and exhiliration to ride without a helmet. It feels like first time you rode your bike as a kid. But most of the time with the current state of motorcycle driver deaths and injuries (horror story after horror story) I enjoy the helmet's safety.

[Rywill]

Although I think it's really dumb to ride without a helmet, or in shorts and a T-shirt, I have to admit I've done it from time to time. Especially if I'm going a short distance at low/moderate speeds. It's a risk, but like Ryan the Other said, if you were really risk-averse you wouldn't ride to begin with. Sometimes it's just too much hassle to take the gear on and off just to go to the grocery store. (I'm also dead set against helmet laws, even though I think everyone should always wear one, because I'm a kooky libertarian that way.)

[Jason Levine]

(I'm also dead set against helmet laws, even though I think everyone should always wear one, because I'm a kooky libertarian that way.)

I used to be kooky libertarian that way until I saw the cost in terms of medical resources and $$ it takes to treat a closed-head injury resulting from not wearing a helmet. It's hardly just the rider who pays the price for that selfish decision.

[Rywill]

That's a good point, but there are some externalized costs that society should either choose to bear or not. If you don't want to pay for my closed-head injury, the solution is not "continue paying for my injury but forbid me from taking the risk that would incur it"; it's "tell me that if I take the risk, I'm on my own." If society is unwilling to do that (and we may not be), we just accept the fact that we're going to pay for some people's risky behavior, just like we pay for the legs they break when skiing or the livers they get transplanted in after a lifetime of drinking or the skin cancer they get from laying out too much. You pick up the tab or you don't, but you shouldn't legislate how people live their lives because (a) you insist on paying their medical bills whether they like it or not but (b) don't want to pay for certain expenses.

I'm sure motorcycle accidents get attention because they're so sudden and graphic. But I'm also sure society spends a hundred thousand times as much money and medical resources treating the effects of people being overweight. Yet I would never say that means the government should regulate how much we all eat and exercise.

Now back to your regularly scheduled non-P&R motorcycle thread!

(Edit for clarity)

[Jeff Green]

I wouldn't dream of riding without ALL my gear, every time I ride. Even if it's just to go to the grocery store for a few items. Seems to me like even in that 1/2 mile ride, I could very easily encounter some cell-phone-talking SUV-driving distracted dumbass who could splatter me across the pavement before I knew what hit me. Why take chances? (I mean, other than the chance you're taking by riding at all.) So I wear the full-face helmet, gloves, jacket, jeans, and boots every time I ride.

I remember in the motorcycle safety class (which I also recommend) some guy asking, "What if it's too hot to wear all that stuff?" And the teacher responded: "If it's too hot for you to wear the gear, then ya know what? Don't ride."

[Union Carbide]

Although I think it's really dumb to ride without a helmet, or in shorts and a T-shirt, I have to admit I've done it from time to time. Especially if I'm going a short distance at low/moderate speeds.

My neighbor when I was a teen suffered massive intercranial trauma when he got hit at the end of our street. That was a nice object lesson for when I started riding a few years later.

[Ben Sones]

Be sure to carry an empty gas container with you too, because the only socially-acceptable reason for a guy to be riding in someone's bitch seat is to get gas.

I've ridden on Ry's "bitch seat" many times, which is how, not coincidentally, I know that his chaps are assless.

[Nick Walter]

Be sure to carry an empty gas container with you too, because the only socially-acceptable reason for a guy to be riding in someone's bitch seat is to get gas.

I've ridden on Ry's "bitch seat" many times, which is how, not coincidentally, I know that his chaps are assless.

Yeah, but have you ever ridden on the back of his motorcycle?

okay that was bad, I just couldn't resist

[Hanzii]

I don't really like motorbikes, but I do like technology. So get this:

Motorola Bluetooth helmet. (http://www.motorola.com/mediacenter/news/detail/0,,4666_3990_23,00.html)

Picture here (http://www.engadget.com/entry/4733053417440374/)

[Supertanker]

I'll just chime in with the full-face recommendation, and also note you may be protecting yourself from your own lack of perfection. The worst motorcycle accident I ever witnessed (the CHP ended up stopping all traffic on the freeway to land a helicopter ambulance) was low speed (25 mph) and caused 100% by rider inattention. If the rider had been wearing a full face helmet instead of a skid lid, she would not have shattered her face and temple on the back of a stopped SUV. I never found out for sure if she survived.

[greywind]

Noise is a big issue for me when choosing helmets. Some very expensive helmets can also be the loudest--but most full face helmets have better foam inside and less wind resistance outside.

Noise on the highway contributes to rider fatigue. If you're planning on doing a long trip (more than an hour), wear a full-face helmet and earplugs and you'll notice a significant difference in your fatigue level. The earplugs cancel out a lot of high-frequency noise and you'll be fresher and more attentive on the road when wearing them.

My one bike accident involved watching the pavement slide by very close to my face at 80kph. I was wearing a full face helmet and was very happy I did. After that, I decided that I didn't know as much about biking as I thought I did and decided to take and later teach the Canada Safety Council course (MSF equivalent for Canada).

ian

[Rywill]

I'll second the earplugs recommendation, it really makes a difference. Even for a trip that's only an hour.

Re: full-face helmets, one of the MCN editors put the question this way (paraphrasing from memory): "If I told you I was going to hold your face against a belt sander, what kind of helmet would you want?" That about says it all.