Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones Thread

[balut]

Just felt like starting up an "official" Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones thread for those of us who ran out and got it already.

I'm about a couple hours into it, and I'm awfully rusty with my Fire Emblem sk1llz - I already got Franz killed in the process of recruiting the badass Myrmidon, Joshua. I left Franz dead, even though he was my only Cavalier at this point, but luckily it seems like several more Cavalier-types will pop up once I reunite the siblings.

Oh, and Seth seems to be the new Marcus, although I'll have to see how his stats hold up once I get some other characters to a similar level to compare and see if Seth is worthwhile later on.

I'm still on the fence about the addition of "monsters", but so far they're at least an easy source of experience.

[farley2k]

I just want to know if it is easier or harder than the first GBA one.

I am a wimp, I admit it. So if it is as tough I will pass.

[wildpokerman]

Someone explain to me why fire emblem is so cool around here. I own it, I can't stand it.

Compared to other SRPGs even FFT from years ago it's shallow and sad. Each character has two class possibilities, one basic and one higher level. I'll go as far as saying I can see the magic in the hardcore character is dead forever mechanic but the rest of the game is sad. I swear I'm not trolling I love every other SRPG I've ever played but the fire emblem game just didn't do a thing for me.

[Kitsune]

You can choose from three difficulty levels this time. Normal is fairly easy, and easy is like, "I suck at strategy games and Fire Emblem in general, but I'd still love to make it all the way through so won't you take pity on me?" easy.

I think you'll be fine. However, whatever you do don't wuss out by powerleveling!

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid170/p05755d40d7360eec724bee81d1978215/f3f8d029.jpg

-Kitsune

[mike]

I'm still on the fence about the addition of "monsters", but so far they're at least an easy source of experience.

Can you explain this further?

[BaconTastesGood]

I swear I'm not trolling I love every other SRPG I've ever played but the fire emblem game just didn't do a thing for me.

What's not to love? The per-level replay value of "play it through a zillion times until you figure out the pattern"? The awesome "using weapons makes them break" mechanics so that you're constantly juggling between 'trash' and 'good' stuff depending on the opponent? The kick ass "Choose if you want to have a merchant dude set up his tent that might get sacked" "choice" that you can't really choose until you know what the level is like? Or choosing "Should I fight...or GO SHOPPING?!"

Or the stern lecturing from people telling you not to play the game the way it's begging to be played, i.e. levelling up?

I personally prefer the permadeath mechanic, because nothing says PHUN more than spending three hours wading through a level only to have one of your weak characters trip over a rock* and die (or something equally unforgiving happen), forcing a reboot.

* I know you can't trip over a rock, but it takes just a small vulnerability, especially when fog of war is involved, and you can get someone killed in one shot. Think pegasus chick vs. archers type of thing.

[olaf]

Yeah I have to say that while I did really enjoy the first 3/4 of the first one...I just stopped cold after a while because I was running into a brick wall one of the missions. I played it about 10 times and just kept dying, fuck that it wasnt fun at all by that point.

olaf

[Xemu]

So how does the new one stack up to the first?

I enjoyed the original Fire Emblem a great deal but got to a point about halfway (?) through where I would lose a character 10-12 turns in and have to restart over. Replaying the same 10-12 turns just to have a character get one-shotted started to get tedious.

Other than that I really like the mechanics, but making it through a level with no one dying seems very difficult...

[wildpokerman]

You can choose from three difficulty levels this time. Normal is fairly easy, and easy is like, "I suck at strategy games and Fire Emblem in general, but I'd still love to make it all the way through so won't you take pity on me?" easy.

I think you'll be fine. However, whatever you do don't wuss out by powerleveling!

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid170/p05755d40d7360eec724bee81d1978215/f3f8d029.jpg

-Kitsune

That image could be used in every WOW thread from here on out!

[Tyjenks]

I am not one for iron-man perma-death preferences, but FE was one I pretty much stayed with the rule that if one died so be it. By midway, you have such a stable of different characters, you could slide someone else in and, while not as experienced, he would build his way up. Plus, as the story progressed, it was not like the people you added started off at Level 1, their experience fell in pretty well relative to how far along you were.

Initially, I thought I would hate that system in Fire Emblem, but I played it more and stuck with it longer than I had with any game in a long while.

[Kitsune]

Bacon, get real.

I'm "lecturing" because "I have to level up to pass this" has long ceased to be a valid criticism in games for a good, what 10 to 15 years now? (At least console RPGs, but PC RPGs also seem to have largely nixed that criterion.) In fact, a lot of gamers claim they are forced to do many things in games whereas I look at the same situation and what ho! I didn't need to do it, or I see others who didn't need to do it. Force is a word for when you have no other options. I think people could stand to simply analyze the way they play rather than instantly blaming it on the developer more often. Certainly, the more talented the developer, the more I will give them the benefit of the doubt.

In any case, leveling up to pass a challenge in RPGs is the same as holding a walkthrough and puzzle solution for level clear (as opposed to falling block) puzzlers like Lolo or DROD. The whole point of the game is to use your noggin to solve the puzzles. Often these games have very little else to them beside that element. If you take that away by being told how to do everything, you are basically following a set of directions rather than playing a game.

In Super Mario Bros. 3, there was the P-Wing power-up that was quite rare and gave you the ability to fly for the entire stage. Imagine SMB3 if you could have infinite P-Wings from the start. In a game where the entire point is to analyze the obstacles from point A to point B and then move through the platforms while avoiding setbacks, unlimited P-Wings would nix the whole point of the actual game in question.

In a Treasure arcade spazz fast, the whole point of the game is to master a set of skills used to devise tactics to get past enemies, based on your skill level with whatever moves the developer has given you. Put in a Gameshark invincible code or some such and any impetus to actually practice, gain skill, try different things, to actually play an action game rather than mash the buttons disappears.

Likewise, the earliest really had limited means to set them apart into the RPG genre: 1) They had the illusion or at least the prospect of a more simulated world where places could be safe or unsafe, people friendly or unfriendly, with an economy of sorts and levels of rest/health, relationships, 2) They stopped time enough for the player to be able to think about what they wanted to do, giving them enough time to put themselves in the characters' shoes and ask either what would be they best or what they wanted to do, 3) They had an emphasis on growing a character with your choices more than any other element in the game, 4)They had reasons for why you were doing what you were doing that more closely matched everyday reality (instead of fight, fight, fight or abstract goals, "walk here, talk to this person, do this, fight that and then buy these", etc. etc.)

As time goes on, so many other genres have taken from these four tributes that RPGs have have to innovate heavily in order to remain RPGs. These days, RPGs are more roleplaying games because of the order of magnitude in focus on these elements, not the presence of them, since in all sorts of other games, these four elements are showing up way more often.

Now. If you simply level up, you take away 3) the interesting choices you can make in developing characters, 2) the interesting choices you can make when putting yourself in their shoes, because their shoes there is no longer any reason to take the time to think when the answer is obvious and parts of 4), since you limit the design the developer implemented to nudge you or influence your decisions by making every approach violently easy and giving yourself no motivation to do more than Tap A to kill everyone, FF-style. At that point, all you have left is 1) and if you want, the whole argument comes up that you might as well be reading a book, watching a movie or some such thing. RPGs are about choice first and foremost. By their nature they can be abused, but if you want actually roleplay, its best to play along with the developer's intentions so that those choices will be meaningful ones.

By their nature, developers often make it tedious or have tried to implement punishments for unduly leveling up in Summon Night 3 for instance, you can't get a good ending, or Dragon Quarter, or how in DQVI and VII, you won't be able to gain job points, or how level was more of a measure of relative strength that could be manipulated in FFVIII, or how Final Fantasy Tactics Advance implemented to encourage people not to spam on an easy tactic or level up through something, but be well balanced. These work to a certain extent, but just as no one can derive much pleasure from jumping in place a thousand times in a Mario game though you CAN do it, its terribly reasonable to expect RPG developers to make leveling up boring so that you're encouraged to tackle the more alluring part of the design. Thus, the design with the healer staffs in FE, where its really not much in your interest to do something like that.

Some RPGs are naturally too easy or level you up too much without your choice, and in that case, all you can do is still try to engage the game as if the choices were more meaningful w/ respect to difficulty. That's always an option with an easy game. But a harder or normal difficulty game will point out to the perceptive game those joys of subtlety and nuance that truly make one game design differ from another, with a talented developed. That's what Fire Emblem does. Until Sacred Stones, they never even gave you a reasonable chance to level up and they certainly didn't try to make it Nippon Ichi-like fun. Anyone can win any scenario in the game the 1st time through by being ready for surprises, analyzing all the available data (hell they even give you a character who will give you hints before a battle!) and by simply being prudent. That very last is what give's FE its charm. So many other SRPGs or strategy games make troops expendable in death, they lessen the consequences of your actions by it. The harsh deaths of FE encourage a player not to think more clearly about possible consequences.

Its like Jason Lutes said in the Oblivion thread (hopefully I'm not mischaracterizing his opinion) that gamers have to take a certain amount of responsibility in playing the game the way it was intended if they expect to be engaged.

Yes, because its also an RPG, every once in a while, the luck is against you. But then again, just like any normal RPG, sometimes luck is on your side.

Fire Emblem rocks. Wusseling up doesn't. End of story.

-Kitsune

[balut]

I just want to know if it is easier or harder than the first GBA one.

I am a wimp, I admit it. So if it is as tough I will pass.

I'm playing on Normal, and it feels a bit easier so far. I'd assume that playing on Easy would be significantly easier than the first one.

[balut]

I'm still on the fence about the addition of "monsters", but so far they're at least an easy source of experience.

Can you explain this further?

Well, when you're moving your crew to your next battle on the battle map, they have areas where you can be attacked by monsters or fiends, which are different than the normal troops you fight in the FE series. The only thing I've noticed so far is that these monsters are weak against Light Magic, and fairly easy to beat so far. I almost screwed up against them when I didn't realize these floating eyeball-things can fly over water and shoot at range, but aside from that I've had no problems against them.

[BobJustBob]

The whole point of the game is to use your noggin to solve the puzzles.

Really? I thought the point of a game was to have fun. They're still entertainment, right?

[Kitsune]

So how does the new one stack up to the first?


If you have the goal of going through the game with nobody dying, it should be easier than what you've played before.

Otherwise, it stacks up very well. They've added a map to choose where you want to go between chapters, so maintenance is easier, though it can be argued there nothing really wrong with the previous way. The new EX missions play out like as if they added a dungeon hack into a strategy game, so its a fresh new slant on the mechanics, especially since FE lends itself so well to such roguelike iron man challenges. Using these EX missions with slighty weaker characters in order to get them up to par with everyone else does not amount to wusseling out so much as giving you even wider choice for your next story battle, since its easier to keep everyone on the same level. On the flip side, if you go for that every time, it can make replay a little more tedious. If you ask me, it was fun singling out characters for promotions and grouping them together for my various strategies, being able to put them all at the same level makes for less varied replays. The EX missions (and the ability to replay things) also make support conversations a ton easier to access, if you're the type who likes to spam turns to get them.

The addition of monsters was kind of controversial, because while they add enemy variety, they obviously can't talk and are a bit vague as to where they fall in the weapon triangle.

Unlike Blazing Sword, Sacred Stones splits the narrative roughly in half between two different characters when you have to make a choice about a 1/3 of the way through the game, so the different campaigns, like Hector and Eliwood are more closely tied together.

There aren't as many missions as Blazing Sword, but there are more maps.

Character advancement choices having been added to classes and the addition of skills back into the mix, though on a low level are all around good news, as they just make a good game even better.

The addition of some really powerful or unique items lends the game a cooler flair, but can be argued to make things even easier in the late game.

The music is debateable, the graphics are a little busier, but mostly either enhanced or the same and the story is vintage Fire Emblem: charming characters you usually don't want to die get involved in a decent political upheaval.

As for the problem having to play through all those turns again so a character doesn't get killed through bad luck or otherwise, yeah, I agree they could probably think of some way (like say a waygate that once you've passed you can restart from) to do that a little more user friendly. But usually, once you've played a game or two in the series, that tendency gets frightfully less because you've become so cautious as IntSys's designs. So you might find less experiences like that the more games in the series you play.

Bob, don't be an ass, of course part of a game's appeal is the fun, but depending on the genre it gets to that in a different way, I don't think its at all unfair to expect gamers to actually try to solve puzzles in a game that is about nothing at all else beside that, call me crazy.

-Kitsune

[balut]

Someone explain to me why fire emblem is so cool around here. I own it, I can't stand it.

Compared to other SRPGs even FFT from years ago it's shallow and sad. Each character has two class possibilities, one basic and one higher level. I'll go as far as saying I can see the magic in the hardcore character is dead forever mechanic but the rest of the game is sad. I swear I'm not trolling I love every other SRPG I've ever played but the fire emblem game just didn't do a thing for me.

1. In FE:TSS, most characters have multiple upgrade branches; for example, a basic swordsman-type could upgrade to a Myrmidon or a Mercenary. A Myrmidon can upgrade to a Swordmaster or an Assassin. A Mercenary can upgrade to a Hero or (not sure) an Assassin. This example might not be completely accurate, but you get the gist of it.

2. Because of the character death thing, you always get many more characters than you can use in a given mission. This makes part of the strategy involve choosing the makeup of your forces. The game lets you view the battle map and (known) enemy positions as well as your deployment area before you enter the mission, so you have to gauge who or what to bring into a battle based on the given intelligence, terrain, and objectives of a given mission.

3. Because of the relative vulnerability of all characters in FE, the battles can become very fluid, much moreso than other SRPGs. An initial plan might involve setting a battle line across a mountain pass and marching forward, but bad luck, an enemy surprise, or a wrong move or two can force you to drastically alter your plan in the middle of battle.

4. Strategic sacrifices. On one map, the pre-battle dialogue showed that an enemy Myrmidon, Joshua, reported his reluctance to kill a female NPC. This NPC girl joins you, and I figured that she might be able to convince Joshua to switch sides in the middle of battle. Unfortunately, Joshua is much stronger than any single troop I brought into the battle, and I would have to bring a unit within his striking range to "shield" the NPC girl until she could get close enough to talk to him. I used my Cavalier, Franz, to enter Joshua's attack range, because it would lure Joshua closer to my NPC girl, and Franz has a relatively high Defense stat and should be able to withstand Joshua's attacks. Unfortunately, Joshua critical hit Franz and killed him in one shot. OTOH, the NPC girl (I honestly can't remember her name) was able to move up the next turn and convince Joshua to switch sides. So, I sacrifice an average Cavalier, and gain a much more powerful Myrmidon in return.


I'm not sure if I really articulated the appeal of the Fire Emblem games, but something about them just really grab me and hold my attention when I play. Perhaps it's all tied into the perma-death thing, and how because of this every move you make tends to have much more import than other SRPGs. Perhaps it's trying to figure out what secrets might lie in some maps, or what NPCs or enemies can be convinced to join. Perhaps its the sense of attachment you get as you painstakingly level your chosen crew of heroes, and try to bring every one of them through battle intact. I'm not sure, but I do know that you can't just look at screenshots and statistics and determine if the game is worthwhile or not; there's just something intangible present while playing the game itself.

[shang]

I'm "lecturing" because "I have to level up to pass this" has long ceased to be a valid criticism in games for a good, what 10 to 15 years now? (At least console RPGs, but PC RPGs also seem to have largely nixed that criterion.)

Hmm, so what about SRPGs such as the Nippon Ichi ones? Are you saying that it's possible to, for example, beat the final boss of Disgaea by doing nothing but the story missions and never stopping to level up your characters and/or items? If yes, then I must really suck at that game. :P

[McBain]

Yeah Seth is clearly Marcus' distant cousin. The first thing I did was give his steel sword to Eirika or whatever her name is. I then proceeded to park his ass right in his starting spot on every single map.

Sadly, Ross is no Hector (at least not yet). Hector ruled. My basic strategy on the hard maps in FE was "Send in Hector and Matthew." Matthew with his ninja dodging skills and Hector with the "kill anyone in one turn" approach. Ross and Colm (who are their new equivalents) pretty much suck from what I've seen.

Character comparisons aside, I do like the fact that you can get right into the game (no tutorial on normal). I also like the way travel is handled, and the monsters seem like a pretty simple way to throw in more of the fun part of the game, the combat.

[JamesL]

The whole point of the game is to use your noggin to solve the puzzles.

Really? I thought the point of a game was to have fun. They're still entertainment, right?

He's talking about this particular game, not all games. It's like saying "The whole point of tetris to make lines of blocks."

[Andrew Mallon]

Compared to other SRPGs even FFT from years ago it's shallow and sad. Each character has two class possibilities, one basic and one higher level.

This is the main reason why I like Fire Emblem so much. Regular console SRPGs (at least the ones I've played: FFTA, Tactics Ogre, Front Mission 4) all strike me as paper doll simulators. Basically, the only thinking involved is in the character creation/upgrade screens. When you get to the actual battles, the game basically boils down to having all your characters attack one enemy character until it's dead and repeat until the battle is won.

The depth of Fire Emblem really comes from learning how to mix different units together for a tactical advantage in any given situation.

[DeathMonkey]

Yeah Seth is clearly Marcus' distant cousin. The first thing I did was give his steel sword to Eirika or whatever her name is. I then proceeded to park his ass right in his starting spot on every single map.

Yeah, I did the same thing with Seth but I park him at chokepoints when things start going south. There's another battle (5x on hard) where you get another Seth-like character that saved my butt by taking most of the hits while my less experienced characters did their hit and run thing.

Sadly, Ross is no Hector (at least not yet). Hector ruled. My basic strategy on the hard maps in FE was "Send in Hector and Matthew." Matthew with his ninja dodging skills and Hector with the "kill anyone in one turn" approach. Ross and Colm (who are their new equivalents) pretty much suck from what I've seen.

I think Ross has the capacity to become awesome since he practically gets 50 levels (10 with the the ur-class, then 20 + 20). I'm not sure Colm will turn out well.

Oh, 5x contains the best weapon I've ever seen in a Fire Emblem game - insta-kill on mounted units and knights and a very high critical hit rate. An amazing weapon.

-Scott-

[DeathMonkey]

So how does the new one stack up to the first?

For the most part, they are nearly identical. Not as similar as Advance Wars and Advance Wars 2, but I wouldn't buy Sacred Stones if the mechanics of the first FE didn't hold you enough to complete the game.

-Scott-

[Qenan]

OK, I got to Vigarde and he murders everything I throw at him. What gives? Thanks to obnoxious console save-game issues, I've played this scenario 4-5 times to the end, only to get killed. None of my guys get anywhere against him... does he have a weakness?

[DeathMonkey]

OK, I got to Vigarde and he murders everything I throw at him. What gives? Thanks to obnoxious console save-game issues, I've played this scenario 4-5 times to the end, only to get killed. None of my guys get anywhere against him... does he have a weakness?

I can't help you with Vigarde because I haven't gotten there yet. I would if I could, but I got to say this:

Two points:

1) The "obnoxious console save-game issues" you speak of are a core part of a Fire Emblem game. The game is relentlessly strict about characters dying, but that's part of the engagement. They've included systems to reward you to keep characters alive (the support system) and features to help get you out of jam when you make a mistake (the rescue command). Fire Emblem games will always lose players due to its rigid save structure, but it's inclusion certainly isn't a haphazard inclusion or wreckless mistake.

2) PC-style save game systems (save anywhere, anytime) frequently rob games of tension. Players can nickel-and-dime their way through the toughest encounters, quick-load and saving as their heart sees fit. I see the save-anywhere mechanism as a crutch for bad game design. Designers don't have to worry about making a sequence too easy or difficult when players have such a powerful too in overcoming obstacles.

-Scott-

[Qenan]

I don't mind the fact that if folks die they are gone. I'm tired of having to play the whole scenario over just looking for a way to kill Vigarde. That's obnoxious.

[LionelThompson]

I am loving this game so far, although since the DS is my first handheld in a long time, I am mixing it in with lots of other games (Yoshi's Topsy Turvy, Wario Twisted, Kirby's Canvas Curse, etc). That said, there are a couple of questions I am hoping you all can help with:

- the death of the characers are permanent, and as such I lost my birdie guy and someone else very early on. I still have 9 characters though, so should I be concerned about this as long as I don't let anyone else die?

- although I am only in chapter 6 or 7, I noticed that my weapons appear to be ready to break. I have money and know how to sell things, but is there anyway to buy new items or at least repair what I have?

Otherwise, I am digging this much more than Final Fantasy Tactics when I played it on the PS.

[DeathMonkey]

I don't mind the fact that if folks die they are gone. I'm tired of having to play the whole scenario over just looking for a way to kill Vigarde. That's obnoxious.

Yeah, I certainly agree that some levels should either be shortened or have a mid-way save point. I do think the system on the whole works well.

-Scott-

[DeathMonkey]

- the death of the characers are permanent, and as such I lost my birdie guy and someone else very early on. I still have 9 characters though, so should I be concerned about this as long as I don't let anyone else die?

You shouldn't be concerned too much about character death. The game tends to give you a steady flow of new characters to keep you above water. The game is easier (and more fulfilling, imo) if you keep the original characters alive because they turn out to be more powerful than characters join later in the story.

- although I am only in chapter 6 or 7, I noticed that my weapons appear to be ready to break. I have money and know how to sell things, but is there anyway to buy new items or at least repair what I have?

Look for shops on the maps that you fight on. There's an "armory" and another place I forget the name of. Walk a unit in there and you're shopping!

If you're playing Sacred Stones, you should be able to shop between missions. I think there's an "armory" menu when you go to the items interface.

-Scott-

[Jasper]

I don't mind the fact that if folks die they are gone. I'm tired of having to play the whole scenario over just looking for a way to kill Vigarde. That's obnoxious.
You can always do what I did for the previous Fire Emblem (although I'm sure some will call me a heretic): buy the game, and then play it emulated on a PC.

This has lots of advantages:
-A much bigger screen, so you don't go blind.
-Filtered graphics that look much better.
-Play your own music.
-Speed the game up through the interminable cut scenes.
-Save at any instant (although Fire Emblem loses alot if you abuse this).

Games are improved immensely, and the only minus is it's no longer handheld. Just buy what you play so you don't rip the developers off.

[Moggraider]

Nintendo's going to have a tough time selling a Game Boy Micro to us Fire Emblem fans, what with that smaller screen....

[DeathMonkey]

Does anyone know where to find the equations for how the stats effect combat? Specifically luck, because my Ross in Sacred Stones is rocking some 22 luck at level 10. I'm very happy for him, but I'd like to know how this effects combat rather than him just being "lucky."

*edit*
Ah, found it. Here's the info:

Here is how various things are calculated in FE7:

Attack = Weapon Power + Strength/Magic
Defense = Defense
Attack - Defense = HP Damage to defender
Hit % = Weapon Hit % + 2x Skill + Luck/2
Critical % = Weapon Critical % + Skill/2
Evade %:
If Constitution > Weapon Weight: 2x Speed + Luck
If Constitution < Weapon Weight:
2x Speed + Luck - 2x(Weapon Weight - Constitution)
Critical Evade %: Luck

Seems like my 22 luck isn't a crushing advantage that I'd want it to be, but I'm not complaining. :)

-Scott-

[Dave Perkins]

So how does the new one stack up to the first?

For the most part, they are nearly identical. Not as similar as Advance Wars and Advance Wars 2, but I wouldn't buy Sacred Stones if the mechanics of the first FE didn't hold you enough to complete the game.

-Scott-

Scott is definitely right about that. I have hardly noticed a single difference between the first FE and this one. Even most of the animations look exactly the same.

I played the first one five times in a row, so I ain't complaining. :)

[Qenan]

Yeah, it's basically a new edition of the same thing. Which is fine, as for the most part it is well done.

Still need to get back to it and kill Vigarde, though.

[Horrible Oscar]

Sadly, Ross is no Hector (at least not yet). Hector ruled. My basic strategy on the hard maps in FE was "Send in Hector and Matthew." Matthew with his ninja dodging skills and Hector with the "kill anyone in one turn" approach. Ross and Colm (who are their new equivalents) pretty much suck from what I've seen.
I didn't even use Hector all that much in FE, and Matthew kind of paled once I got Jaffar. Ross, however, destroyed absolutely everything I could throw at him once I turned him into a Fighter. Bunch of cavalry approaching from the other corner? Just put Ross in their way and he'll disembowel them with nothing but counterattacks. I'm working on Amelia in hopes that she'll become equally godly at some point too.

Also, the manual sucks. I was mildly disappointed that the Assassin was apparently gone and that the Thief only can level up to a Rogue, but it turns out that Myrmidons as well as Thieves have the Assassin choice.

[Moggraider]

Yeah, they really should've done a better job with that thing. Those omissions were pretty sloppy. The website almost does a better job of teaching you how to play than the manual does - and it does it with a cool dramatic voiceover!

[DanielElliot]

Hey, how important are support relationships really? I'm doing them just because the game makes it easier to see who can have support with whom than in the last FE, and because they're nifty, but how much difference in combat abilities will there be? Once I get some A level support going on, will I be going "Hot damn, these two kick ass together!", or is it just a little extra boost?

[Alan Au]

Once I get some A level support going on, will I be going "Hot damn, these two kick ass together!", or is it just a little extra boost?
It depends on the characters and the elemental pairings, but a good support pairing is typically the equivalent of giving each character ~5 extra levels worth of stats.

- Alan

[Moggraider]

I really liked using the support in the few cases I bothered to get it. It made me feel like the characters were invincible, and in some cases they practically were.

[drdoalots]

Playing Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones made me realize the fatal flaw in my play style that ruins games for me.

You know that map early in the game where there is an arena you can have your characters fight in? I just took Seth and fought about 20 battles there and by that time he was invincible enough to make most of the rest of the game a cake walk.

When it comes to exploiting games I just can't help myself. For example, I jumped off a cliff a couple hundred times in Morrowind because it was literally the easiest way to level up... I'm sure the developers really didn't want you to do that, but if I can exploit it, I generally do.

[Draco]

When it comes to exploiting games I just can't help myself. For example, I jumped off a cliff a couple hundred times in Morrowind because it was literally the easiest way to level up... I'm sure the developers really didn't want you to do that, but if I can exploit it, I generally do.

I never played Morrowind, but how does one level up by jumping off a cliff? BTW, I'm playing FE:SS right now and loving it.

[Dave Perkins]

I'm playing Sacred Stones without restarting any chapters, and if my hero dies and I get the "Game Over" screen, I restart the entire game. So far, I haven't had a hero die. However, thanks to the fog-of-war chapters, and chapters wherein enemy reinforcements appear in waves on the edge of the map, I lost all but six of my units by around chapter 12 of Eirika's journey. I was left with:

Eirika - Lord, Level 18
Vanessa - Falcoknight, Level 1
Forde - Great Knight, Level 4
Tethys - Dancer, Level 6
Saleh - Sage, Level 1
Innes - Sniper, Level 2

I lost seven units in one chapter alone, in fact. Brutal.

In a subsequent chapter, I lost Saleh and Innes to waves of Pegasus Riders that appeared at random as reinforcements. I was ill-prepared to defend against them at the time. I also was 1000 gold shy of what I needed to recruit the master thief who appears in a castle chapter after that.

Now in chapter 16 ("Ruled by Madness") I have:

Eirika - Lord, Level 20
Vanessa - Falcoknight, Level 6
Forde - Great Knight, Level 9
Tethys - Dancer, Level 17
Ephraim - Lord, Level 17
Duessel - Great Knight, Level 11
Myrrh - Manakete, Level 1

I haven't had any clerics or magicians for two chapters now. The best ranged strike I can do is a Hand Axe. Almost all of my special character weapons, except Ephraim's special spear, have broken. That darn thief who wouldn't be bought pilfered a Hammerne, which repairs items, and left the map.

Just felt like sharing this story cuz it's a great game and fun to play in this way. Every chapter has its serious "issues" to deal with when you lack clerics, archers, thiefs, and mages. Eirika has been stuck at level 20, for example, for the past three chapters, because I don't know where to find the item that powers her up. I probably needed a thief to find it.

(I'm not asking to be told where it is, but merely illustrating the sorts of difficulties the game presents when you have a poorly-rounded army. I'm just about broke, too, thanks to all the elixirs I had to buy when fighting the last chapter!)

[Moggraider]

Eirika classes up without any action on your part. I'm wondering how in the hell you managed to kill Seth off. Sounds like a fun way to play though, excepting of course starting the game over if a main character dies.

[Dave Perkins]

Eirika classes up without any action on your part. I'm wondering how in the hell you managed to kill Seth off. Sounds like a fun way to play though, excepting of course starting the game over if a main character dies.

Oh yeah! I meant to mention that Seth died in an Arena fight. He was matched up against a level 5 Barbarian and got the crap kicked out of him in the first hit. I swear I pushed the B button at least two dozen times during Seth's counterattack, hoping to pull Seth out of the fight. Didn't work, though.

Forcing myself to start over if a main character dies makes each fight all the more intense.

[Greenie]

Forcing myself to start over if a main character dies makes each fight all the more intense.

That's pretty hardcore! I've played through level 16 without restarting any missions myself. I only have about 11 characters left, though...

One nice thing about Sacred Stones (as compared to the original) is that at least you only have 1 "story" character to keep alive. It was always so frustrating in the original game to have someone swoop in and kill off Eliwood and instantly end a scenario.

[DanielElliot]

Is this your second (or more) time through the game and you're looking for a challenge, or are you just that fucking hardcore? Seriously, more power to you if you're enjoying it, I could never force myself to start the entire game over if I lost a mission.

How replayable is this game, by the way? I never finished the last one, but I remember reading there's alternate paths and things that open up. Is this game the same way?

[Chris Nahr]

There's one story branch in the middle of the game where you can follow either Eirika or Ephraim. They get together again a few chapters later, though. Possibly the game also changes in other ways once you've beaten it; I'm only in the 19th chapter right now.

[Chris Nahr]

By the way, the game seems quite a bit easier than the first Western release, but maybe that's also because I've adopted a rather gamey tactic to limit my losses: do nothing for a few turns, just wait for the AI to advance.

Since there's no strategic AI whatsoever, individual units will simply advance as soon as you enter their activation zone. For some fast units that's the entire map. By turtling and sitting out this initial attack you can later advance against only half the enemy forces...

Besides, some scenarios have those periodic enemy reinforcements that are really nasty if they catch you at unawares. Waiting a few turns also means you see if new units come in, how many, which ones, and where. And there always seems to be a limited pool, so you can just wait them out, too.

[DrCrypt]

If you do that, though, you can miss out on a lot of stuff. Some missions have timers to go on to optional missions with legendary weapons or extra characters. If you don't go on the offensive, you'll never manage to get to those missions.

[Dave Perkins]

Is this your second (or more) time through the game and you're looking for a challenge...

If you count the original Fire Emblem, whatever it was called, and by "original" I mean "the other one that came out in English", then I've played FE through a few times. But this is my first shot at Sacred Stones. I just like the feel of being down to the last few guys on a level, and wondering who to put in mortal danger: Tethys or Innes? Vanessa or Saleh? & etc.

A couple of times, I've used Eirika in dangerous situations, and I swear the game has rewarded me probabilistically with a couple of enemy misses in 80% hit situations. This was usually after I'd just lost a few of my favorite characters due to what I thought were insane demands on me, like at around chapter 13 where the goal is to stay alive for 11 turns. At about turn 9, a BRAND NEW BOSS unit, armed with a 3-10 range spell and accompanied by eight or nine support troops, shows up in the back lines. My troops were scattered, and it cost me that bearded warrior who was always saying "Gwah ha ha", both my male and female magicians (Arthur and.. Tutte?), one of my clerics (the horsie one, not the male whose name started with M), and almost Forde and Tethys as well.

I think if I lost Vanessa, I would restart the whole thing anyway.

Replaying FE is not a chore, as it's fun to use the characters that died the last time (especially the thief, who died almost immediately because I was reckless with him).

[Dave Perkins]

If you do that, though, you can miss out on a lot of stuff. Some missions have timers to go on to optional missions with legendary weapons or extra characters. If you don't go on the offensive, you'll never manage to get to those missions.

Exactly! And there's little or no warning as to which missions are the optional ones, so it seems like it's always better simply to push ahead and give it a shot. The game is made even more replayable by this feature.

[Chris Nahr]

Argh! You shouldn't have told me. Now I'll have to agonize about what I might have missed out on, and I'm going to hate FE for giving absolutely no warning that this feature even exists. :(

[Jasper]

Pushing ahead isn't always a bad strategy, for example in the Mission Dave Perkins mentions I decided that what I saw wasn't so bad, and tried to slay them all instead of merely survive. Consequently I had units close enough to the reinforcement mage with the long range attack and his (puny) minions that I just slew them.

In general though, abusing the strategic AI is the primary tactic. Make sure you have first strike as often as possible, "pull" units from tough groups, and present your toughest characters for them to counterattack (the AI happilly attacks Rock units with Scissors!).

[Jason Lutes]

Go, Dave, go!

I'm a huge fan of the Iron Man approach, and play strategy games that way as a rule. I'm up to Chapter 11 in Sacred Stones and I too am without any healers at this point. It looks like I'll be able to turn my Monk into some kid of healer at some point, so I'm careful with him. Also, I lost Vanessa in the stupid monster tower right after I levelled her into a Falconknight. :cry:

Besides Seth, my main killer unit right now is Colm, who's become a super-evasive Assassin who always has a Killing Edge on hand.

The other thing I'm doing is only upping support levels if characters end up next to each other as a result of tactical positioning, so their bond feels more natural.

Take note, min/max wusses: Iron Man is the one true way to play... :)

[Andrew Mayer]

You guys are so HARDCORE. I feel ashamed to be posting in the same topic as you mighty men.

[Jason Lutes]

That's right, Mayer -- BOW DOWN to the full-grown men who have labored over their handheld gaming devices for untold hours in order to master the manipulation of bobble-headed pixel-piles in the pursuit of elitist entertainment with nary a resort to a savegame!

I think we need out own brand of cologne. IRON MAN by Matchabelli.

[Jasper]

Is it really hardcore? It's tough to make the leap to ironman, but at least for me it's more fun if there is actually risk and loss. Save scumming is less fun, and takes longer too.

[balut]

That's right, Mayer -- BOW DOWN to the full-grown men who have labored over their handheld gaming devices for untold hours in order to master the manipulation of bobble-headed pixel-piles in the pursuit of elitist entertainment with nary a resort to a savegame!

I think we need out own brand of cologne. IRON MAN by Matchabelli.

Check out "Sex Panther" - illegal in nine countries. Watch out, though - it's a formidable scent. Stings the nostrils. :D

[Jason Lutes]

Is it really hardcore? It's tough to make the leap to ironman, but at least for me it's more fun if there is actually risk and loss. Save scumming is less fun, and takes longer too.
Clearly for the majority of gamers, who all appear to be card-carrying members of the Wussiest Party, it is "hardcore." But to the real men among us, it's the ONE TRUE WAY that games are MEANT TO BE PLAYED. Just ask Robert Bly.

Games that can't be played through successfully whilst wearing IRON MAN cologne are CRAPPY GAMES.

[Jasper]

You've left a wry grin on my mug, but seriously (for you WUSSES out there!) -- is it so hard to take losing a few virtual units? Is it really so fun to reload every time you make a mistake?

[Draco]

I ran my units through that tower several times so everyone was at least level 10 before I went further. Leveling up the healer is a pain though b/c they gain so little experience for every healing they do.

[Andrew Mayer]

You've left a wry grin on my mug, but seriously (for you WUSSES out there!) -- is it so hard to take losing a few virtual units? Is it really so fun to reload every time you make a mistake?

I'll admit to being a super wuss on this game, releoading every time I lost. Ultimately it made the game much less fun to play.

While I may not go IRONMAN(tm), I may go back and let the deaths happen. It's not like I needed that flying horse chick anyway.

[Dave Perkins]

I didn't realize that playing HARDCORE required me to use a lot of ALL CAPS in my threads, but COUNT ME IN!

I'm happy to have a hardcore buddy, Jason. :)

I'm sorry you lost Vanessa. I'm still down to seven units, but one of them is Myrrh, who is a Manakete. I think "Manakete" is the coolest name for a unit EVER. And I mean ALL CAPS EVER. Also, she levels up every time she makes a kill, which is cool and/or super-cool.

[Dave Perkins]

Another thing that's made me lose a bunch of units is that I didn't know until recently that I could return to towns I'd been to in order to buy things at Vendors and Armories.

[balut]

I didn't realize that playing HARDCORE required me to use a lot of ALL CAPS in my threads, but COUNT ME IN!

I'm happy to have a hardcore buddy, Jason. :)

I'm sorry you lost Vanessa. I'm still down to seven units, but one of them is Myrrh, who is a Manakete. I think "Manakete" is the coolest name for a unit EVER. And I mean ALL CAPS EVER. Also, she levels up every time she makes a kill, which is cool and/or super-cool.

Be careful, once her Orb is out of charges, she's done for the entire rest of the game (the Hammerne Staff doesn't restore it). She's basically your walking Nuke, with 50 charges. I used enough to max her level, then saved her for bosses. I would've hated to not have any Manakete destruction to unleash when the shit hit the fan.

[Dave Perkins]

Be careful, once her Orb is out of charges, she's done for the entire rest of the game (the Hammerne Staff doesn't restore it). She's basically your walking Nuke, with 50 charges. I used enough to max her level, then saved her for bosses. I would've hated to not have any Manakete destruction to unleash when the shit hit the fan.

I couldn't afford the thief Colm who then stole the Hammerne, anyhow. I'm glad that cool weapons keep popping up just as I'm down to my last 200 gold and last 5 charges on everyone's iron weapons.

I found that I could make a lot of gold selling power-up items like Guiding Ring, anyhow! I need the gold for elixirs for attacking bosses without any friendly ranged units.

[Chris Nahr]

Okay, I finished the game yesterday, on Eirika's path.

It was almost embarrasingly easy, compared to the previous game. I wanted the new tutorials so I played on Easy, assuming that the actual monster difficulty was the same as Medium (that's how I read the manual)... I hope that wasn't a mistake?

In the last couple of scenarios I could fill all slots with upclassed units, having some left over, and again as many reserve units stuck on level 20 since I didn't have the upgrade items! Guess I shouldn't have abused those random monster spawning grounds so much...

The difficulty in the early maps was actually fairly stiff, then got easier and easier as I built up my army of veterans. Apparently the game's balanced with the assumption that everyone plays like Dave Perkins and loses at least three units per map. :P

I replayed about half the maps, though not just because of a single unit death. Four or five units died over the course of the game (mostly new recruits who died at a single unlucky hit), then another four in the final boss fight (hey, I needed cannon fodder to keep Ephraim and Natasha alive).

Nice touch: the game shows all the units after the credits with a little biography of what became of them -- or with an obituary if you managed to get them killed.

[Moggraider]

I really think the only thing that made this game easier was the addition of the level-up areas.

[Warning]

Nice touch: the game shows all the units after the credits with a little biography of what became of them -- or with an obituary if you managed to get them killed.
The first GBA Fire Emblem did that too and I also liked it. It reminded me of Fallout's ending.

[Dave Perkins]

I'm in chapter 18 (or so) called "River of Despair" (or something), the one where a Falcoknight named Sylvia (or whatever) is hoping to save five "river folk". So I rush in, scoop up the river folk, attempt to talk to Sylvia with just about every unit I still have, and fail to get her attention. Sylvia dies because she's a wuss.

I bring the river folk back to the starting island and set up a formation around them. Wyverns with javelins make short work of all but one of them, and a never-ending swarm of Heroes and Knights eventually plow over Forde and Duessel. Myrrh dies defending the mountains against a dozen mages, all but one of whom can't even harm her. Sadly, a mage armed with Luna knows Myrrh's weakness, much to my surprise. Vanessa flies headlong into the onrushing wyverns to gain some time, and is hit five times in a row. Her body lies in the western mountains.

My remaining units are:

Eirika - Great Lord, Level 4
Ephraim - Great Lord, Level 5
Tethys - Dancer, Level 19

and the level isn't over yet. The brother and sister are splattered in wyvern blood and scraps of mage robes, and Tethys is saying last rites over the remaining river folk. I quit before what seems to be the grisly end of the story. I am too sad to go back.

[Chris Nahr]

That Falcoknight serves in the army of Prince Innes, the archer you met a while back (if he still lives). He's the one who has to talk to her.

By the way, is there any correct way to save the river folk? I tried to talk to them, bring them to the map's edge, all to no avail. So I eventually just put my units in the central island and protected (most of) them. But that didn't earn me anything that I could see... not even a "thank you". Ungrateful plebes!

[balut]

Easiest way to save the river folk is to have a few tanks just carry them for most of the map. Don't even drop them, just give them to big rescuer units like Valkyrie L'arachel, General Amelia, or the Pegasus Knight you pick up. Then just keep those units away from battle, and concentrate on protecting them.

[balut]

Oh, and you get an item from the River Folk but only if you save ALL of them.

[Chris Nahr]

All of them? Feh. That's what you get for trying to be nice... nothing! Should've tossed them right into their river...

[JimmDogg]

I just picked this game up the other day and I am really digging it. I am a total n00b to the FE series and to most tactics games in general. I played a bit of the first Advance Wars, but I am finding FE:TSS much more engrossing.

Can you guys recommend other games in this genre, preferably for the Xbox or GBA? The first FE game seems like an obvious choice. How about FF:Tactics? Isn't there an Ogre Tactics game for the GBA?

[Moggraider]

Tactics Ogre is great, but hard to find. I bought one on Ebay two years back but it turned out to be a counterfeit.

FF:TA is also a hell of a lot of fun. I enjoyed it a lot more than the original FF:T because of its faster pace. It's a blast learning skills for your characters.

You'll also have the other FE game to play. Onimusha Tactics is another possibility, though it's not as good as the others.

[MikeJ]

Is there any particular strategy as to when to upgrade a character's class? Is there any drawback to using the class item as soon as possible? (Other than the idea that they may get killed by a balista the very next map, thus wasting a perfectly good upgrade. Not that that ever happened to me of course...)

[DanielElliot]

The Lord of the Rings tactical game isn't bad. I forget the name, it's not named after one of the books, and I don't think it's The Third Age.

[balut]

Is there any particular strategy as to when to upgrade a character's class? Is there any drawback to using the class item as soon as possible? (Other than the idea that they may get killed by a balista the very next map, thus wasting a perfectly good upgrade. Not that that ever happened to me of course...)

The strategy to character class upgrading is maximizing level-up stat upgrades. If you get a character to level 10, then upgrade, you get 30 total levels worth of stat upgrades. If, instead, you wait to max out at level 20 before upgrading, that gives you an additional 10 levels worth of stat upgrades to use, which can make a huge difference.

This is even more pronounced with the "rookie" classes, such as Amelia, Garcia's kid (can't remember his name atm), and Ewan the mage, because they get 10 levels of "rookiedom" before they even auto-upgrade to a regular class. Potentially, then, these 3 can have 50 levels worth of stat upgrades.

[Jasper]

Also, promoted characters seem to get less experience points per battle than unpromoted characters, although I'm not exactly sure what factors determine how much XP you get so it's hard to tell.

[MikeJ]

This is even more pronounced with the "rookie" classes, such as Amelia, Garcia's kid (can't remember his name atm), and Ewan the mage, because they get 10 levels of "rookiedom" before they even auto-upgrade to a regular class. Potentially, then, these 3 can have 50 levels worth of stat upgrades.

Good thing I got Ross *and* his dad killed inside of two rounds then. Who would have thought a single regular soldier could cause so much carnage...

Is there any pattern to how many stats get upgraded per level? Eirika seems to get four or five, while others sometimes only get one.

[Gourmand]

I picked the game up after reading some of the discussion in this thread. I was doing good and thinking "hey this ironman thing isn't so bad, so far." Then I got to the arena level, and Joshua single hit kills Franz. I decided Ironman isn't for me (yet).

[DanielElliot]

I'm too much of a wussy girlyman for 100% AMERICAN REAL IRONMAN ACTION too. I don't think there's any shame in it. Just don't let the REAL IRONMAN ACTIONMEN kick sand in your face.

I was stuck on that Joshua level for a long time. Just send Seth up with the nun trailing behind to do the wussy girly talking. Only Seth is enough of a REAL IRONMAN to stand up to Joshua's mighty IRON BLADE.

[Jasper]

Is there any pattern to how many stats get upgraded per level? Eirika seems to get four or five, while others sometimes only get one.
What I remember from reading a FAQ is that each stat seperately has a random chance to go up when a character levels, with the pattern of chances depending on the character. There's one item that permanently raises these percentages, and for the first FE characters with the same "Sign" as the Tacticians get a boost too.

The lords have high overall percentages, so they tend to get more frequent increases. However, it's possible for any character to get nothing when leveling up -- or everything.

[Gourmand]

I was stuck on that Joshua level for a long time. Just send Seth up with the nun trailing behind to do the wussy girly talking. Only Seth is enough of a REAL IRONMAN to stand up to Joshua's mighty IRON BLADE.

I think that's been my problem then. I haven't been putting Seth in the battles because by all accounts, he's just an XP hog. I also feel like I'm playing easy mode when I let Seth tear through my enemies front lines. I'll have to put him just for this purpose then :D

[Moggraider]

You might also want to unequip Seth so that he doesn't kill Joshua.

[balut]

Seth >> Marcus

[MikeJ]

I think that's been my problem then. I haven't been putting Seth in the battles because by all accounts, he's just an XP hog. I also feel like I'm playing easy mode when I let Seth tear through my enemies front lines. I'll have to put him just for this purpose then :D

Seth is an XP hog in the earlier levels. I basically kept him glued to Eirika's side, ready to smash anything that's going to cause a problem. I think it's worthwhile using him to take out some of the bosses though, as he gets a good chunk of Xp from those. I've also used him to draw fire on fog levels, becuase getting hit by a bunch of undetected guys on hard is not fun at all.

[Jason Lutes]

I'm too much of a wussy girlyman for 100% AMERICAN REAL IRONMAN ACTION too. I don't think there's any shame in it. Just don't let the REAL IRONMAN ACTIONMEN kick sand in your face.

I was stuck on that Joshua level for a long time. Just send Seth up with the nun trailing behind to do the wussy girly talking. Only Seth is enough of a REAL IRONMAN to stand up to Joshua's mighty IRON BLADE.
At least you know how to TALK THE ALLCAP TALK. Also, take solace in the fact that even while I kick sand in your face, I may be destined to continue doing so in an ever-repeating, Sisyphian loop, since I am now restarting the game from the beginning after losing Ephraim on the "Phantom Ship" level. :cry:

IRONMEN are also known as STUBBORNMEN in some cultures.

I am kind of relishing the restart, though.

[Chris Nahr]

However, it's possible for any character to get nothing when leveling up -- or everything.

Have you actually seen a character get nothing for a new level?All my characters got at least the obligatory (?) extra hit point, if nothing else.

[Jasper]

Yes, but only once or twice; the odds of failling all the percent rolls is low. More frequently characters will get other stat bonuses, but no hit point -- there's nothing obligatory about HPs, the % chance is just high.

[Chris Nahr]

Whoa, that sounds like something they should fix for the next version. Those one-point increases are bad enough but seeing a character get absolutely no stats increase would probably send me into a frothing rage and cause instant death to the module, if not the DS itself.

[Gourmand]

I was checking out gameFAQs to see what extras I had missed in the first 5 missions, if any. During my time in there I found out there's a way to abuse the Random Number Generator to get max stats and such on level ups. The guy basically said "Dude, it's so possible!" but didn't go into specifics becuase he thought it was dirty.

So, apparently there's some trick out there to get full stat upgrades each level? I'm not sure how sophisticated the trick is. It might be some neanderthal work around like resetting a level run any time you don't get 6+ stats improved on a level up. Or it could be something elegant like stealing your GBA's mhz. Who knows? Not me.

I'm content having the dice determine my fate.

[DeathMonkey]

So, apparently there's some trick out there to get full stat upgrades each level? I'm not sure how sophisticated the trick is. It might be some neanderthal work around like resetting a level run any time you don't get 6+ stats improved on a level up. Or it could be something elegant like stealing your GBA's mhz. Who knows? Not me.

As I recall the random number generator cycles through numbers as you move your cursor around the map. I believe this only applies to the movement cursor (with the arrow thing), not the actual cursor. Repeat the same cursor movements, achieve the same exact result.

The obvious abuse of this is if there is a character on the cusp of levelling up and you can gain the experience on first turn of a level. Then you can try several cursor manipulations (with relatively quick resets) to mazimize your result.

btw - I'm not an IRONMAN. I'm a WUSSYMAN RESTARTING COMPLETIST that has seen this in action. I've never restarted a level exclusively to maximize my leveling benefits, but on the third restart you start to realize your first-move level up guy gets the dreaded hp-only upgrade you start trying other turn orders to give the character a better upgrade. After the first turn, this hack is nearly useless because you'd have to memorize every movement sequence for every character to have repeatable results.

-Scott-

[Dave Perkins]

btw - I'm not an IRONMAN. I'm a WUSSYMAN RESTARTING COMPLETIST that has seen this in action.

Then can we get you to stop using the all-capitals that are a hallmark of Ironmen?

[Gourmand]

I just restarted on Ironman mode, playing hard difficulty. Call me a traitor.

I got to the split where Ephraim and Eirika split up, and had to choose a path and to be honest got frustrated with all of the extra people I had just sitting around doing nothing. Knowing, that the number was only going to grow.

I figure, I'd have more fun being clever once I'm pushed into a hard place. Although, we'll see if I have the willpower to flip the reset switch after losing Eirika on mission 20 or something like that.

[Jasper]

Yah, and you don't get to listen to I AM IRONMAN either. Try the Beach Boys or Steel Dan instead.

[Dave Perkins]

A belated winky for DeathMonkey: :wink:

Eirika, Ephraim and Tethys survived the rush of mages and knights (see my post, page 3) and defeated Lyon's possessed body. Sadly, they received no reinforcements as they entered the next chapter, where gorgons with 3-10 ranged attacks are hatching from eggs. Fortunately, the brother and sister both kick bookoo hiney at this point with their special weapons, and Ephraim happened to snatch the Hoplon Guard (cancels critical attacks) from Forde before Forde succumbed during the previous chapter. There is a ray of hope still. My characters are:

Eirika - Great Lord, Level 6
Ephraim - Great Lord, Level 8
Tethys - Dancer, max level

Jason, I'm sorry to hear about Ephraim aboard the phantom ship. I haven't seen that chapter, perhaps because I took Eirika's path and you took Ephraim's?

[Horrible Oscar]

So, apparently there's some trick out there to get full stat upgrades each level? I'm not sure how sophisticated the trick is. It might be some neanderthal work around like resetting a level run any time you don't get 6+ stats improved on a level up. Or it could be something elegant like stealing your GBA's mhz. Who knows? Not me.

As I recall the random number generator cycles through numbers as you move your cursor around the map. I believe this only applies to the movement cursor (with the arrow thing), not the actual cursor. Repeat the same cursor movements, achieve the same exact result.

The obvious abuse of this is if there is a character on the cusp of levelling up and you can gain the experience on first turn of a level. Then you can try several cursor manipulations (with relatively quick resets) to mazimize your result.

btw - I'm not an IRONMAN. I'm a WUSSYMAN RESTARTING COMPLETIST that has seen this in action. I've never restarted a level exclusively to maximize my leveling benefits, but on the third restart you start to realize your first-move level up guy gets the dreaded hp-only upgrade you start trying other turn orders to give the character a better upgrade. After the first turn, this hack is nearly useless because you'd have to memorize every movement sequence for every character to have repeatable results.

-Scott-
If I recall correctly from the first GBA FE, using up random numbers isn't quite that simple; You have to take a character with decent movement range that isn't near any obstacles, and then circle the movement cursor in the eight spaces around him. At a certain point, the movement arrow will reset to the shortest path because your character can only move so much. But if the cursor happens to be in a space diagonal (that is, directly NE, NW, SE or SW) from the character, there are two possible ways for the cursor to reset: first a horizontal, then a vertical movement or vice-versa. The game uses up a random number to determine this.

So since random numbers are set even when reloading, you can use this to determine whether the coming random numbers are above or below 50 and therefore take advantage of a string of "good" numbers, or avoid bad ones by using them up in the way described above.

I'm not sure how coherent I just was, but rest assured this is only for the kind of people who absolutely must get every single stat point that's possibly achievable in the game and thus be able to kill the final boss in one hit from their healer character. Arguably a kind of IRONMAN approach in it's own right.

[Dave Perkins]

I'm not sure how coherent I just was, but rest assured this is only for the kind of people who absolutely must get every single stat point that's possibly achievable in the game and thus be able to kill the final boss in one hit from their healer character.

lol, well put..

I read somewhere that some people played through Hector's campaign (in the previous FE) using only Hector. I wonder if they used the random number cheatz0r that you describe.

[Thomas Wilde]

I'd imagine it had more to do with that peculiar momentum that Fire Emblem brings to the table. With most characters, especially paladins and lords, you can get to this point where they can solo everything.

Right now, I'm in Chapter 20 or so on Eirika's path, and the only way I can get any challenge out of the game is if I leave Seth on the sidelines. He's like a bug zapper for enemy units.

[McBain]

I read somewhere that some people played through Hector's campaign (in the previous FE) using only Hector. I wonder if they used the random number cheatz0r that you describe.

Hector is so overpowered that you really don't need a cheatz0r, IMO.

I found myself using him as a crutch in FE, and my tactic of "SEND IN HECTOR!" made the game really easy to beat.

[DeathMonkey]

For those who've already beaten the game (or at least ahead of me):

Eirika's closing in on level 20 and I was wondering if she auto-promotes before/after/during some mission or if I get a promotion item that I can use when I want to.

Thanks!

-Scott-

[MikeJ]

Eirika's closing in on level 20 and I was wondering if she auto-promotes before/after/during some mission or if I get a promotion item that I can use when I want to.


After one specific mission you get the option to upgrade or wait. I don't know how long you can wait because I took it right away.

[Horrible Oscar]

Eirika's closing in on level 20 and I was wondering if she auto-promotes before/after/during some mission or if I get a promotion item that I can use when I want to.


After one specific mission you get the option to upgrade or wait. I don't know how long you can wait because I took it right away.
If you choose not to promote, you get an item that you can use to class up at any time you choose.

[DanielElliot]

I'm just getting to the point where it's time to start upgrading people besides Ross. How does choosing which class to upgrade into work? Are there two upgrade items per character, and I need to use the right one to get the right class, or is there only one upgrade item and it gives me a choice when I use it?

[Jason Lutes]

I'm just getting to the point where it's time to start upgrading people besides Ross. How does choosing which class to upgrade into work? Are there two upgrade items per character, and I need to use the right one to get the right class, or is there only one upgrade item and it gives me a choice when I use it?
As far as I know there's one item per class, and you get to choose the upgrade path when you use it.

[Dave Perkins]

Ephraim was turned to stone by a Gorgon and whaled on by two other Gorgons, so I have been forced to restart. It sure is nice to have clerics and mages again! And this time, I know that I can backtrack on the map to get to Vendors and Armories. I'm on chapter 4, and everyone is still alive and well.

[Qenan]

So, can someone who finished the game explain to me what I need to defeat Vigarde?

His spear is broken and he can't hurt me. But I can't seem to hurt him -- at all. This is a bit frustrating.

[DanielElliot]

Can someone spoil me as to how many people you end up controlling in a single battle? I've been playing the game in ultra-wussy not letting anyone die mode, but I have more people than I will ever need now. I am still a wuss so I don't want to end up not being able to fill out my party, but I am willing to let some people (like the female Myrmidon picked up in the mission I'm on) die if necessary.

[Dave Perkins]

Can someone spoil me as to how many people you end up controlling in a single battle?

In my experience, between 7 and 12, typically.

[Chris Nahr]

So, can someone who finished the game explain to me what I need to defeat Vigarde?

His spear is broken and he can't hurt me. But I can't seem to hurt him -- at all. This is a bit frustrating.

Late-game bosses usually require special named weapons to hurt them. You should have collected the weapons of various twins which some of your characters should be able to wield by now, but you might also try Ephraim's named lances.

Ephraim is the boss killer in the late game, by the way. You shouldn't start a scenario without him.

[Arioch]

I just killed Vigarde in one turn with Ephraim's starting lance. Though if it's broken by now, you should try Duessel with a silver axe.

[Dave Perkins]

HARDCORE UPDATE with lots of ALL CAPS!

Having RESTARTED, I just finished chapter 6, the first fog of war level. Last time, I lost FIVE or SIX UNITS during this chapter, including both of my healing units. This time, I have yet to lose A SINGLE UNIT. I don't say that in all caps to BRAG, since I am playing with the benefit of HINDSIGHT now.

It helped in chapter 6 to still have Seth, who died in the Arena in chapter 5 the first time I played.

[Jason Lutes]

How goes the struggle, Dave?

My second IRON MAN! run ended in tragedy last night. I got up to chapter 15 with Eirika and took some major losses on the level where you get sandwiched between two huge armies waiting for reinforcements to arrive. I lost Seth and Innes and L'Arachel, and by the end of the battle I had only eight characters in my entire party. Then, when I tried to backpedal to pick up some iron weapons at a shop, I got into a skirmish battle and Eirika died.

All in all, it was a gripping run. Sometimes it was a real struggle not to reload from a save, like when I carefully nurtured Colm into a deadly assassin only to lose him in a bungled move to save another character, or when Seth bit it.

I just love the perma-death design model, and how it intensifies the gameplay and enriches the story. My favorite narrative moment was after I had gotten the mountain wizard teacher guy killed trying to reach his grandmother, and his grandmother says something like, "He died? He was always a stupid boy."

Looking forward to my next run, planning to switch back to Ephraim's path. I really wish the game kept a high score list so I could track my progress numerically...

[Dave Perkins]

Great stories, Jason, although I'm sorry about how things panned out. That level where you're trapped between two armies is brutal. The first time I played through, I lost all but three characters (Eirika, Ephraim, and the dancer Tethys) in that fight.

This time through, I am in the middle of Chapter 9 (Distant Blade), a seaside battle during which a "Recruit" named Amelia appears in the lower-left corner. My first time through the game, I didn't make it to her in time, and she ran from the map. This time, I made it! She is terribly weak, but I imagine that if she inflicts even a scrap of damage, she will gain an entire level. I'd hate to lose her, so I've been careful for the couple of turns I've had her.

I lost my first unit (Kent) on this chapter in my rush to catch up with the Pirates who were heading for the two villages on the map. I sent all three of my cavalry units threading through the opposition to intercept the Pirates, and caught all but one. Kent paid the price for my decision.

I'm glad I made it to one of the two villages, at least. The villager gave me a sparkling new Rapier! (I was afraid Kent had died so that I would get a Steel Bow or something lame.)

You're way ahead of me, though, and I expect casualties in the near future, especially on the two-front map. Oops.. I mean, you were way ahead of me. Please do tell tales of your third IRON-MAN.

[Jason Lutes]

Doh! My third run just ended with Eirika getting killed in the fifth mission. Sloppy, sloppy, sloppy.

But it raises an important rules question... Is there any way to tell if a given mission "boss" will be mobile or not when you get near it? Sometimes they stay put and just defend their spot, sometimes they move out and strike when you get within range (which is what happened to me just now). Maybe the bosses who are guarding gates never move, and all others move like regular enemies? Anyone know the answer?

[Dave Perkins]

I don't think I've ever seen a boss in a throne or gate move. Most bosses who are sitting in the open don't move either. Just to be safe, I always test the waters with a unit who I believe will survive a boss lunge.

[DanielElliot]

I'm pretty sure they never move from thrones or gates, to avoid a situation where you win the mission, but the boss is still alive. I have had them move and attack plenty of times when they're not guarding a throne or gate.

[MikeJ]

You're way ahead of me, though, and I expect casualties in the near future, especially on the two-front map. Oops.. I mean, you were way ahead of me. Please do tell tales of your third IRON-MAN.

When I played the two-front map (if it's the survive X turns, enemy army appears in rear) I had my original knight character (upgraded to a General) basically hold an entire front. Pretty much nothing could touch him, and he would just heal up sitting in a fort.

By the time the big bad army showed up behind me, he was running low on opponents, so I had him take out the fist boss. Fortunately, that ended the mission, so I had zero casualties.

How are you supposed to handle those big long-range magic attacks anyway? The only time I ever faced one of those without losing a character, I just had Seth stand in a forest and get missed by lightning 5 turns in a row. That seemed pretty cheap though...

[Jason Lutes]

How are you supposed to handle those big long-range magic attacks anyway? The only time I ever faced one of those without losing a character, I just had Seth stand in a forest and get missed by lightning 5 turns in a row. That seemed pretty cheap though...
I hopped Innes into the ballista in the top middle and plugged that Carcino wizard in two shots. He did some serious damage before I was able to take him out, but not enough to kill anyone.

Also, nothing is too cheap when you're playing IRON-MAN!. Except reloading. Reloading is cheap.

[Jasper]

I've found 3 good methods for dealing with range 10 magic. Have someone close at hand to kill them quickly, use range 10 magic yourself, or leave them just one high resistance target and let them use up their ammo. If you try to handle them while a broader battle is ongoing on, so that other units can attack their same target, you're hosed.

[Chris Nahr]

At least there weren't any disgusting instakill long-range mages who are hidden by fog-of-war, like in the previous game...

[Greenie]

I'm slow but I finally finished my HARDCORE game! It took 20:05 hours and by the last level I was down to five characters: Ephraim, Eirika, Neimi, Innes, and Natasha. Eirika was able to take down both final bosses by herself.

Great game. I'm already looking forward to replaying on the 2nd path!

[Jason Lutes]

I'm slow but I finally finished my HARDCORE game! It took 20:05 hours and by the last level I was down to five characters: Ephraim, Eirika, Neimi, Innes, and Natasha. Eirika was able to take down both final bosses by herself.

Great game. I'm already looking forward to replaying on the 2nd path!
Congrats, Greenie! I'm impressed. You can wear the IRON MAN! badge with pride. Did you do it on your first playthrough, or had you played through some of it previously? I ask because I'm currently on my fourth attempt.

[Dave Perkins]

Well done, Greenie!

[Greenie]

Thanks guys!

This was my first playthrough. I literally started the day it came out. Off and on since then I've just been whittling away at it evenings and weekends.

Overall I'd have to say Sacred Stones was a bit easier than the original FE. I don't know if it was just because I was familiar with the game mechanics, but in SS it seemed like it was a lot easier to quickly level up the two main characters into pretty powerful units. Countless times in the original FE game I'd lose when an enemy charged across the map and took out Eliwood with one shot.

Also, the easier supply mechanics in SS sure made the endgame stages a lot more fun. In the original FE I would always get spread pretty thin on items and weapons. I'd end up having to trade the same sword around a couple of characters in the last chapters! In Sacred Stones it was nice to be able to stock up the "store" and then use Eirika to distribute as necessary.

Just my 2 cents, though - I think the all the changes make SS a lot more fun to play. I'm looking forward to restarting the game and playing through on Ephraim's path. This time I'll hit more of the monster areas, too!

[DanielElliot]

WISE FROM YOU GWAVE!?!?

I'm finally making progress in this game, and not even taking many casualties. I lost Ross shortly after he became a mighty pirate :( and Franz in that nasty mission where you pick up Innes. Lost Saleh on the mission where he joins, which led to some nice alternate dialog at the end of the mission.

Anyway, there don't seem to be many secret missions, and I remember at least 3-4 from the previous game. I've only found one here, in the very beginning. The FAQs on GameFAQs seem clueless about it. Anyone know if there are more?

[Greenie]

Anyway, there don't seem to be many secret missions, and I remember at least 3-4 from the previous game. I've only found one here, in the very beginning. The FAQs on GameFAQs seem clueless about it. Anyone know if there are more?

No, I think instead of the secret missions you get the various monster stages and the Tower of Valni. The strat guide doesn't show any secret missions outside of the campaign.

I started into the Tower, but put the game on hold for a bit while I finished up Path of Radiance.

[DanielElliot]

Finished it last night. Man, what a great game. I'm going to play Path of Radiance, then go back for another run-through of Sacred Stones, taking Ephraim's path. I played it semi HARDCORE IRONMAN. I usually let the corpses of my brave soldiers rot where they fell, but I used the tower way too much (the last few fights of the campaign were much easier than they probably should have been), and had a short list of characters that I wouldn't let die.

Once again, I'm impressed with the writing in a GBA/DS game. Whoever translated this has the Lord of the Rings psuedo medieval quasi Shakespearean overwrought speeches DOWN.

[McBain]

Is it me, or did Lute turn out to be Hector v2.0?

[DanielElliot]

Colm was my most powerful character for most of the game, if that's what you mean. I promoted him to Assassin and gave him a Brave Sword so he got four attacks, and he was utterly unstoppable.

[Dave Perkins]

Thanks to a long convalescence with an injured back, I've returned to the HARDCORE game. I made it through Chapter 13 - Hamill Canyon (the timed mission with one boss on the map at the start, and two more who enter the mission later). I was scared of this mission because I lost 9 or 10 units on it last time. This time, I only lost Cormag, the boss who switches to the good side when Eirika speaks to him. He went down in the initial assault on Pablo's forces (Pablo is the boss who enters from the west near the end of the mission).

Now I've just promoted Eirika and Ephraim in Chapter 16 - Ruled by Madness.

Some sad events:

(1) I couldn't reach Rennac, the rogue who appears in Chapter 14, with the correct units. My first time through, I reached him but didn't have the gold he wanted. This time, I had the gold, but couldn't recall who needed to talk to him. I'm therefore still thiefless this game.

(2) I lost Neimi soon after I promoted her to Ranger. A couple of tougher-than-expected Wyverns swooped in and killed her with some lucky hits.

(3) I lost Amelia soon after I promoted her to Cavalier. She was doing great, and I lost her during a stupid monster skirmish. A pair of big ole spiders got two hits on her with 30% chance to hit each. It's the first monster skirmish I've even tried. :(

Bright spots:

Lute is a sweet Mage Knight (Mag 22, Speed 18, Luck 16) and Ewan has progressed past Pupil to Shaman (Level 8). I was sad to lose the pupil Amelia after all the efforts I put into her, but losing Ewan will be even sadder if it happens. Ross, the first pupil you encounter, is now a really tough Fighter with about 50 hit points. Gerik is a level 8 Hero now. The two of them together could practically take Chuck Norris.

[Dave Perkins]

Chapter 17 - River of Regrets is a great level. It's the one with four River Folk, guarded by the FalcoKnight Syrene. I took my A squad (everyone who has been promoted) with the exception of Forde (level 16), who I was hoping to level up a bit before promoting.

I rushed all horse and flying units to the middle, rescued Syrene and the four River Folk, and barely escaped the rush of Wyverns and Mages. Once back in the lower left corner of the map, I didn't even have time to drop all of the River Folk before I was hit on all three sides. Ross held the bridge, Lute (using Excalibur) faced the flank of enemy Heros in the south, and everyone else grouped around the River Folk as I dropped them off.

The turn after Syrene was dropped off, she gave her life protecting the River Folk (I didn't want any to die, because I suspect I might get a goodie or two if they all survive). Sadly, Forde also died protecting Ross, who had been struck down to 1 hit point, and Seth, who was also in single-digits. I should have promoted Forde before the chapter began. In fact, it seems to me that promotion at around level 14-15 is the way to go (if I have to play through again). Almost everyone who I've left unpromoted into the 16-20 range has died.

Great chapter.. constant pressure, lots of wincing, grief, fights that HAVE to be won and are won, and so on. Oh, and one River Folk did die; it was fortunate, really, because the enemy unit could have chosen to hit Ross when he had 1 HP, and chose instead to kill the little River Folk girl. I guess I'd rather keep Ross than get a prize for saving the folk.

KIA: Syrene, Forde

[Dave Perkins]

Three consecutive posts probably indicates that I'm whistling in the dark, but I hope that (at the very least) Jason Lutes is still interested. :)

Chapter 18 - Two Faces of Evil is the chapter I finally succumbed to in my first HARDCORE effort. That unfortunate affair, chronicled earlier in this thread, concluded with Ephraim turning to stone and taking sequential critical hits from Gorgons. Of course, I began the chapter with just three units (Ephraim, Eirika, and Tethys), so I was fairly doomed.

I entered the chapter this time with a full complement of promoted characters. This is the chapter littered with eggs that hatch Gorgons, and I had a hunch that I needed to split into three groups to slaughter as many eggs as I could before they hatched. Unfortunately, this chapter also features a mobile boss, and the flank consisting of Ross (Warrior Lvl 5), his father Garcia (Fighter Lvl 18), Lute (Mage Knight Lvl 3), and Gerik (Hero Lvl 5) triggered the boss Gorgon. Both Ross and Garcia died, turned to stone, before the rest of my units could arrive to help. On another flank, Duessel (Great Knight Lvl 10) was also turned to stone protecting Eirika, and he died at the hands of surprise enemy reinforcements.

KIA: Ross, Garcia, Duessel

I entered Chapter 19 - The Last Hope with an 18 unit cap, and exactly 18 units still alive. In this mission, the good guys need to survive for 13 turns against a constant tide of enemies that not only rush through the front gates, but also through two side doors and up stairways.

Four units are split off to a side room, and thank goodness I put Gerik in that group. Wedged into a narrow doorway, with Natasha (Bishop Lvl 4) healing him, Gerik held off over forty units, breaking two brand new weapons as he did so.

The other 14 units in the throne room made an attempt to reach the five treasure chests in nearby alcoves, but there was no hope. Myrrh (Manakete, Lvl 4) was able to kill a small flank herself, but the other 13 units simply plugged the throne room door and managed to stay alive throughout. I had to use Ephraim on the front lines, and twice his HP dropped below 5. It was a close shave, but I won.

KIA: None.

More to come!

[Greenie]

Good stories! Thanks for posting them.

Chapter 19 is nuts. One time I parked Seth in the left-hand doorway with no weapons and just let him take damage. I'd heal him every turn, then pick off the unit in front of him with archers or mages. That was kind of fun, some of those characters picked up a few levels. The first time through I think nearly everyone I had ran out of weapons and vulneraries!

Several times I tried making a run for the treasure chests or even the front door (to see if I could get to a boss) but I can never make it. I seem to remember one of those timed missions in the original FE where you could end it early if you killed the boss - not sure if it's possible in this one or not...

Edit: Oops! Wrote Marcus when I meant Seth.

[Dave Perkins]

Good stories! Thanks for posting them.
Thanks, Greenie!

Chapter 19 is nuts. One time I parked Seth in the left-hand doorway with no weapons and just let him take damage. I'd heal him every turn, then pick off the unit in front of him with archers or mages. That was kind of fun, some of those characters picked up a few levels. The first time through I think nearly everyone I had ran out of weapons and vulneraries!
It sounds like you didn't have anyone coming into the throne room through the main entrance, which is three squares wide (or two, if you turn the corner and block the hallway, which I did). I had Seth and Ephraim blocking the hallway, but couldn't resist having them do a little killing themselves. That's how I got into trouble; Ephraim's unique lances occasionally killed four or five consecutive enemies in the same turn as he defended, but those enemies kept reducing his health in the meantime. Once, when Ephraim's HP were at 5 and an incoming enemy had about a 60% chance of hitting him, I literally held my breath and shut my eyes, listening for the WHACK that signifies death.

Several times I tried making a run for the treasure chests or even the front door (to see if I could get to a boss) but I can never make it. I seem to remember one of those timed missions in the original FE where you could end it early if you killed the boss - not sure if it's possible in this one or not...
I torched the castle entrance and didn't see a boss unit. I imagine that the mission designer simply assumed you would never be able to get out of the castle and fight in the open ground. I certainly didn't come close.

[Greenie]

It sounds like you didn't have anyone coming into the throne room through the main entrance, which is three squares wide (or two, if you turn the corner and block the hallway, which I did).

Yeah, it's kind of funny. Each time I played, I stationed several units there and it seemed like no one ever made a serious challenge to that door. Late in the chapter some mounted mages show up and can cause some trouble if you have weaker units behind, but for the most part it's not too hard to hold that door. Next time maybe I'll leave it less well defended and see what happens.

On my first playthrough I did the basically same thing with Ephraim! It's one of those fun Fire Emblem "gotchas" where placing a strong unit to defend can turn into a nightmare!

The endgame in Sacred Stones really was pretty fun now that I think back to it. (Especially in comparison to Path of Radiance, which I just finished this week.) Have you gotten to the final chapter yet? There's a couple of fun surprises to play through there as well, but I don't want to spoil anything!

[MikeJ]

Dave, are you playing on the 'difficult' setting? Reading this makes me want to start it up again, but I remember it starting not too hard on 'difficult', but later getting extremely crazy.

I worry, alternately, that normal will be too easy and difficult too hard.

[Jason Lutes]

Three consecutive posts probably indicates that I'm whistling in the dark, but I hope that (at the very least) Jason Lutes is still interested. :)
Just read your updates this evening, Dave -- apparently I'm not getting auto-notification on old threads since the form restructuring.

Great stuff. Sorry about your back, though! I haven't dug up my DS to carry on in my own effort since I moved, but your tales of courage and sacrefice have given me the FE bug again.

[Dave Perkins]

The endgame in Sacred Stones really was pretty fun now that I think back to it. (Especially in comparison to Path of Radiance, which I just finished this week.) Have you gotten to the final chapter yet? There's a couple of fun surprises to play through there as well, but I don't want to spoil anything!
I have reached the Final Chapter, but I haven't yet started it. I lost a couple of nice units in Chapter 20, which I'll narrate in my next post, so I have lost some courage!

Dave, are you playing on the 'difficult' setting? Reading this makes me want to start it up again, but I remember it starting not too hard on 'difficult', but later getting extremely crazy.
Yes, difficult. I thought Chapters 19 and 20 were particularly crazy. I'm glad I survived 19 with no casualties. I'm sure that someone in Korea has beaten Chapter 19 using only Lute armed with a torch.

Just read your updates this evening, Dave -- apparently I'm not getting auto-notification on old threads since the form restructuring.

Great stuff. Sorry about your back, though! I haven't dug up my DS to carry on in my own effort since I moved, but your tales of courage and sacrefice have given me the FE bug again.
I'm glad you spotted the reinvigorated thread! I was actually going to send you a private message, figuring that your auto-notification was fritzed like mine is. I left FE alone for over a month, afraid of what Chapter 13 would do to me, but I'm glad I'm back in the saddle. If you (or anyone else reading the thread) continue playing HARDCORE, I look forward to your own tales.

Speaking of reinvigorated, my back is pretty much all better.

[Dave Perkins]

Chapter 20 - Darkling Woods features what I can only assume is a never-ending supply of enemy reinforcements. I was easily able to kill the first wave of attackers and establish a beachhead, but was unable to make any significant headway around the central mountain range to attack the enemy bosses Riev (Bishop) and Morva (Manakete). With Gerik (Hero, Lvl 10) in the north and Ephraim (Great Lord, Lvl 6) in the south, I had no trouble even with the multi-headed dog monsters and giant spiders. However, there really doesn't seem to be any end to the enemy spawns, and I must have killed over 100 enemy units before despairing of any relief from it.

Eventually realizing that the only unit on the map who could damage Myrrh (Manakete, Lvl 8) was the boss dragon Morva, I sent Myrrh solo across the mountains while all other units defended the northern and southern passes. As Myrrh reached the castle, three consecutive waves of Evil Eye creatures spawned around her, preventing her from reaching either boss. Tired of managing my home troops, I lost Lute (Mage Knight, Lvl 8) to a giant spider whose movement range I hadn't checked. She took Excalibur and my only staffs of Restore and Physic with her to her grave. This is worse, I imagine, than losing Ross was, as I head into the Final Chapter.

I also lost the unpromoted Knoll to a sneaky enemy attack, but didn't much care as he was barely able to hit any enemies let alone damage them.

And then I lost Myrrh. In defeating several dozen enemy units by herself, she progressed to the level cap of 20 before even encountering the bosses. With 39 HP, I could see that she would survive Morva's best attack, which would only do 37 damage. But again, my impatience with the level led to ruin. Although she was not damaged by an attack from the Lethal Talon of a Bael spider, she was poisoned, and lost 2 HP a turn. Thus, having taken 37 damage from Morva, she killed Morva, but lost her remaining 2 HP at the start of the next turn. I could only cover my eyes and shake my head. I imagine that the Final Chapter will be very tough without her.

I airlifted Eirika and Seth to the castle, using Vanessa (Pegasus Knight, Lvl 17) and Tana (Falcoknight, Lvl 6). Myrrh had pretty much cleaned house before dying to poison, so taking over the castle was a cinch. As I did so, more enemies spawned all over the map. Good grief; anyone know if the reinforcements ever end?

KIA: Lute, Myrrh, Knoll

So it's on to the Final Chapter - Sacred Stones. I can take 12 units, and have 14. It's an easy choice to leave Vanessa and Gilliam behind, as neither of them is promoted; in fact, Gilliam is a Lvl 6 Knight, and cannot find a single enemy unit any more who will not kill him with a single blow.

So the cast of characters will be..

Fighters
Eirika (Great Lord, Lvl 7) - Sieglinde, Brave Sword
Ephraim (Great Lord, Lvl 7) - Reginleif, Siegmund
Seth (Paladin, Lvl 10) - Vidofnir, Brave Lance
Gerik (Hero, Lvl 14) - Silver Blade, Killer Blade
Tana (Falcoknight, Lvl 6) - Killer Lance, Spear

Ranged units
Innes (Sniper, Lvl 11) - Nidhogg, Silver Bow
Saleh (Sage, Lvl 10) - Fimbulvetr, Divine
Ewan (Summoner, Lvl 7) - Luna

Support
L'Arachel (Troubadour, Lvl 9)
Natasha (Valkyrie, Lvl 6)
Tethys (Dancer, Lvl 12)
Moulder (Priest, Lvl 13)

At least I have a half dozen unique weapons. (I also possess a handful of unique weapons that no one can wield!) I wish I could promote Vanessa and Moulder, but I lack the right items, mostly because I haven't had a thief in my party in ages. At least I can promote L'Arachel mid-level, as I do have the item for that job.

I think Gerik, Innes, and Saleh will see me through; that tale will soon follow this one!

[Chris Nahr]

Let's all hope Dave survives this chapter so that he can finally move on to Path of Radiance. ;)

[Inactiviste]

I torched the castle entrance and didn't see a boss unit. I imagine that the mission designer simply assumed you would never be able to get out of the castle and fight in the open ground. I certainly didn't come close.

There definitely is a boss, though, to the left. I had to restart the mission several times just because I tried to reach him.The amount of units they throw at you is sickening !

[Dave Perkins]

Let's all hope Dave survives this chapter so that he can finally move on to Path of Radiance. ;)
Isn't that game just for PS2 or Gamecube or some rude thing, though? :o

[Dave Perkins]

There definitely is a boss, though, to the left. I had to restart the mission several times just because I tried to reach him.The amount of units they throw at you is sickening !

Ah, I never could see the lower left corner. Any recollection about if that boss is a main character?

[Inactiviste]

Ah, I never could see the lower left corner. Any recollection about if that boss is a main character?

I don't really remember who he is. Some sort of a dark priest, or mage maybe. Then again, everytime I tried to reach him, I got submerged in the hall, because I don't have six tank units to prevent the waves of reinforcements to flood me to my death (okay, the syntax of that sentence might be personal, but we're talking tsunami of death there).

I guess maybe with a party exclusively made of 20/20, I would stand a chance.

[Arioch]

It's also Riev as the boss in that mission. I assume all of you are playing on hard, right? On Normal I can savely say that the reinforcements on Level 20 do end, and it is possible to kill Riev in Level 19.

[Dave Perkins]

It's also Riev as the boss in that mission. I assume all of you are playing on hard, right? On Normal I can savely say that the reinforcements on Level 20 do end, and it is possible to kill Riev in Level 19.

Yes, hard.

[Chris Nahr]

Isn't that game just for PS2 or Gamecube or some rude thing, though? :o

Gamecube exclusive, naturally. Come on, get a Gamecube already! Just $200 total or so for another Fire Emblem game... you know you can't resist...

[Dave Perkins]

Gamecube exclusive, naturally. Come on, get a Gamecube already! Just $200 total or so for another Fire Emblem game... you know you can't resist...
Since Pikmin 2 is also on Gamecube, it makes it even harder to resist! My nephew showed me Pikmin 2 last Christmas, and I've been wanting to play it more ever since.

In the game I've been narrating, my crew has managed to kill both undead dragons with no casualties. The little Phantoms that Ewan can summon have proven to be extremely useful, in this case for luring the dragons to a spot where I can surround them.

This "final chapter" has been much, much easier than the final chapter in the previous Fire Emblem game, the chapter in which six rooms surrounding the map open one at a time and release very powerful foes. So far, aside from the two undead dragons, this final chapter has been a piece of cake.

Perhaps surprises await, however!

[Dave Perkins]

HARDCORE: Mission accomplished on "difficult" setting!

Needless to say, Final Chapter - Sacred Stones has a fake ending. The possessed boss Lyon is surrounded by wights and gorgons, and a seemingly endless supply of reinforcements appears on the map behind him. I held my troops back a bit, picking away at the defenders, until I feared that I would eventually be pulling Chest Keys from my supply for my units to fight with. In my first aggressive push, Seth got rambunctious with his critical hits and fell prey to half a dozen consecutive wight attacks. The second rush, led by Ephraim and Geryk, punched a hole in the defenses, whereupon Lyon was left with no help. Eirika led the assault on Lyon, who punished all attackers until he finally fell.

On to the Epilogue, wherein the giant beast Fomortiis summoned half a dozen powerful reinforcements on his first turn. I feared the worst, but hoped that if I offered him a target, he would stop summoning. The phantoms that Ewan summons were particularly useful in occupying the boss. Ephraim attacked the left flank, which included a Draco Zombie, alone, surviving by use of the last gulp of an Elixir. The Crimson Eye on that flank got a long-range critical hit on Moulder, killing him instantly.

Only Geryk, Eirika, and Innes could attack Fomortiis without dying, and Geryk's weapons caused no damage. Fomortiis's hit points are hidden, but for fear of reinforcements I sent Eirika and Innes to occupy him. Tana swooped in at key moments to rescue one or the other of them. Having killed the Draco Zombie, Ephraim returned to help Innes and Eirika defeat the boss. Eirika was the last character to strike, which made for a satisfying ending.

L'Arachel, enthused, invited Eirika to join her tea party club, and everyone travelled home and bid one another cryptic adieus.

The body count:

Kyle (KIA - Ch 9, Distant Blade)

Colm (KIA - Ch 12, Village of Silence)
Artur (KIA - Ch 12, Village of Silence)
Marisa (KIA - Ch 12, Village of Silence)

Cormag (KIA - Ch 13, Hamill Canyon)
Amelia (KIA - Ch 13, Hamill Canyon)
Forde (KIA - Ch 13, Hamill Canyon)

Niemi (KIA - Ch 15, Scorched Sands)

Franz (KIA - Ch 16, River of Regrets)
Garcia (KIA - Ch 16, River of Regrets)
Syrene (KIA - Ch 16, River of Regrets)

Ross (KIA - Ch 17, Two Faces of Evil)
Dozla (KIA - Ch 17, Two Faces of Evil)
Duessel (KIA - Ch 17, Two Faces of Evil)

Lute (KIA - Ch 20, Darkling Woods)
Knoll (KIA - Ch 20, Darkling Woods)
Joshua (KIA - Ch 20, Darkling Woods)
Myrrh (WIA - Ch 20, Darkling Woods)

Seth (WIA - Final Chapter, Sacred Stones)
Moulder (KIA - Final Chapter, Sacred Stones)

The survivors:

Gilliam - Knight (Level 6) - Battles:10, Kills:2
Vanessa - Pegasus Knight (14) - B:79, K:32
Tethys - Dancer (15)
Ewan - Summoner (12) - B:72, K:39
Saleh - Sage (11) - B:90, K:67
Natasha - Valkyrie (7) - B:18, K:8
Tana - Falcoknight (11) - B:114, K:63
Innes - Sniper (13) - B:127, K:70
L'Arachel - Valkyrie (2) - B:3, K:0
Gerik - Hero (15) - B:185, K:90
Eirika - Great Lord (9) - B:138, K:62
Ephraim - Great Lord (11) - B:83, K:56

Ross, though he died with four chapters to go, had 239 battles and 152 kills to be my MVP.

[Jasper]

Queue music from Rocky.

[Dave Perkins]

Queue music from Rocky.

I believe you mean: Queue music from ROCKY.

[Jason Lutes]

*applause*

[Dave Perkins]

*applause*

Wee!

I'd enjoy your story should you ever return to this game, Jason. Same goes for anyone else who plays. The deaths of so many characters affects the storyline significantly. By the end, I had to risk Eirika's life more than I wished to in order to protect my mages and healers (and dancer!). I don't think I could have won without Tethys dancing and Ewan summoning.

[Dave Perkins]

I started again. Is there a GBA game that is this much fun? I don't know of it. Advance Wars 1 and 2 come closest for me, but even those games pale in comparison. I intend to play Ephraim's route this time; so far, I've had to restart twice in the first five chapters thanks to taking too many chances.

[Jason Lutes]

Advance Wars doesn't even come close for me -- I love the mechanics but the game is way too generic for me to care much, unfortunately.

The FE games are pretty much th eonly reason I own a GBA and a DS. If only I had time to play more... *sniff*

[Stormbinder]

Reading this thread has motivated me to decide to buy Nintendo system just to play this Fire Emblem Sacred Stone game. Considering I never played or owned any consoles or handhelds(!), being strictly PC gamer, you can tell that I am highly impressed with your postings and comments. :) And since RPGs and turned based strategy are by far my two favorite genres when it comes to computer games, it would be very interesting for me to see what consoles have to offer in this department.


However I need some help from you guys. As mentioned above, I am a complete virgin in anything related to console/handheld console games.


I've spend 4 hours researching on the internet all I could learn about Nintendo, PS2 (what the heck, I just bought 50'' plasma TV and I've heard there are some great RPGs on PS2 ), X-box and all type of portable systems.

I also did quite a bit of research in Fire Emblem seria.

As a result I have a little information overload, mostly because people very often have totally opposite opinions about virtues and vices on any particulate game system, game, whatever. And having zero experience in any of these fields makes my research very difficult and uncertain.

So please help me out!

Here are my questions:

1. First of all - what is the best Nintendo Game system for playing Fire Emblem Sacred Stones? Based upon what I read, there are GBA, GBA SP, and DS, all capable of playing this game. Than there is new backlit version of GBA SP, which supposed to have much better screen than "frontlit" GBA SP. And finally there is the latest "DS Lite" system which is currently available in some countries, which supposed to have better screen...

Which of these systems should I buy?!? (the unit's size and price doesn't matter much to me, only the quality of gameplay, screen/sound quality, etc.) Any game accessories that I might find useful? Any additional tips?


2. Which game should I try first - Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance, or Fire Emblem: Sacred Stones?


3. Are there any other great RPGs or turn-based strategy games on Nintendo system? (and on other console systems as well - like PS2/XBOX)

To give you some example what I consider to be great computer games, here are some of my all times favorites on PC:

RPGs:
1. Plansecape the Torment
2. Wizardy 8
3. Baldurs Gate 2
4. Fallout 1, 2
5. Ultima 7, 4
6. Darklands
7. System Shock 2
8. Daggerfall
9. Might and Magic seria (5-7)

Strategy Games:
1. SM's Alpha Centraur
2. Heroes of Might and Magic 3
3. Master of Magic
4. Age of Wonders:SM
5. Civilization 2
6. JA 2
7. UFO 1/2
8. Fantasy General
9. Dominions 2
10. Combat Missions seria
11. EU2/HOI2


I realize that console games are very different from computer games, but hopefully this list might give you some ideas of what games to suggest.

Any game suggestions (for any console system) would be very appreciated! The only console game that I have played so far was FF7 (played its port to PC, and I liked it).

Sorry for briefly hijacking the thread, and thanks a lot in advance for your valuable advice!

Regards,
Stormbinder

[Qenan]

As someone who owns both GBA SP and DS, and who mostly has used them to play Fire Emblem (Sacred Stones and the original) and Advance Wars:

The DS is brighter than the GBA, but the GBA is smaller, lighter, and, in my opinion easier, to hold. In practice, I usually use the GBA; it's just more convenient, and fits into a pocket better.

The GBA is well worth it for Fire Emblem alone.

[Greenie]

Hey Stormbinder,

This is just my $0.02, but I would go with the Game Boy Fire Emblems first. FE: Path of Radiance is a strictly a GameCube game. I enjoyed PoR, but after starting out really strong story-and game-wise, I thought it had the least interesting endgame of any FE game. The main character is so powerful by the end of the game he can basically solo the last few missions. Also, I find that a big part of the enjoyment of FE for me is the "play anywhere, anytime" that you get with the Game Boy versions.

That being said, Sacred Stones is probably a lot easier to find right now and is a little bit easier than the original Game Boy FE. Either one will keep you busy for a while, though.

I play on a DS and like it just fine. If you don't want to spend the money for a DS, one of the new enhanced screen SP's would be a good choice too.

Hope this helps, and have fun!

Mike

[Dave Perkins]

Sorry for briefly hijacking the thread, and thanks a lot in advance for your valuable advice!

I wouldn't call it a hijack! And I'm agreeing with what the others have said: get GBA, and play Sacred Stones. It's an improvement over Path of Radiance in a few important ways.

[Jasper]

Call me a heretic, but buy the cartridges for GBA, than play on a PC via an emulator such as VisualBoyAdvanced. The main downside is it's really easy to cheat, which will make Ironman much harder (just wait until one of your favorite underpowered characters levels up and gets only 1 HP, or even nothing).

In return you get 4 IMHO big advantages: You can save anywhere, you can fast forward by speeding up the "CPU", you get a bigger screen, and if you find the right filter for a game you get higher resolution. Oh, and of course it's no longer handheld, but I'm guessing that doesn't matter much to you or you'd already own a GBA.

[BDGE]

I still consider the IRONMAN stories some of my favorite reads on this forum.

[Stormbinder]

Thanks a lot for your replies guys, most appreciated.

So it is decided - I am buying and playing Sacred Stones first (In IRONMAN mode! :) ), than getting Path of Radiance.

Few questions about Nintendo: If I would choose between DS or GBA SP (instead of getting emulator and buying the cartridge, as Jasper suggested), which if these two systems would give a better picture when playing Sacred Stone and other GBA/DS games? Are there any difference in resolution/sceen size/quality/brighness? All I know i that GBA SP has better screen than GBA, but how do they compare to DS?


Call me a heretic, but buy the cartridges for GBA, than play on a PC via an emulator such as VisualBoyAdvanced. The main downside is it's really easy to cheat, which will make Ironman much harder (just wait until one of your favorite underpowered characters levels up and gets only 1 HP, or even nothing).

In return you get 4 IMHO big advantages: You can save anywhere, you can fast forward by speeding up the "CPU", you get a bigger screen, and if you find the right filter for a game you get higher resolution. Oh, and of course it's no longer handheld, but I'm guessing that doesn't matter much to you or you'd already own a GBA.

Very interesting idea Jasper, thank you. It does sound as an atractive option to me. Few questions - is this VisualBoyAdvance a good GBA emulator? No compatibility issues as far as Sacred Stone and maybe Advanced Wars(which was suggested in this thread) concerned? And also - what is this "right filter" that you mentioned, that I need to find to get larger screen and good resolution, and how do go about finding the one that is right for this game?



Thank you very much for your advice and comments guys. Please keep them coming! :)


Regards,
Stormbinder

[Jasper]

Very interesting idea Jasper, thank you. It does sound as an atractive option to me. Few questions - is this VisualBoyAdvance a good GBA emulator? No compatibility issues as far as Sacred Stone and maybe Advanced Wars(which was suggested in this thread) concerned? And also - what is this "right filter" that you mentioned, that I need to find to get larger screen and good resolution, and how do go about finding the one that is right for this game?
It worked fine for me for Sacred Stones and it's predecessor. I only tried Advanced Wars 1/2 for a level or two (I didn't like them), but they seemed to work too. You can easily check this out by hunting down the ROM first, and only buying the cartridge if it works.

VBA has a software filter for when you display at a larger than GBA resolution, with a bunch of different alogorithms for how to handle doubling the number of pixels: simple blocks of 4 pixels, anti-aliasing, etc. Different algorithms look better for different games; I liked "Super Eagle" for Fire Emblem.

[DanielElliot]

The emulator is perfect, but it's still more fun on the real GBA or DS. I can't really explain why, it's just better, IMO. Also, Fire Emblem in particular is one of the extremely rare games that would be hurt by a save anywhere feature. The fact that every move you make counts, and that there's no way to take something back other than restarting the mission, and that when your guys die, they are DEAD and never come back, is a huge part of the experience. Playing on an emulator with the save state feature just encourages you to play a perfect game where nobody dies, and that is absolutely the wrong way to play Fire Emblem.

I should clarify the lack of saving in the game. It's actually saving all the time, in other words you can turn off the game at any time, turn it back on, and be right where you left off. So I guess what I really mean is that a load anytime feature is what ruins the game, since you're not allowed to reload in order to take back a move, just restart the mission.

[Stormbinder]

The emulator is perfect, but it's still more fun on the real GBA or DS. I can't really explain why, it's just better, IMO. Also, Fire Emblem in particular is one of the extremely rare games that would be hurt by a save anywhere feature. The fact that every move you make counts, and that there's no way to take something back other than restarting the mission, and that when your guys die, they are DEAD and never come back, is a huge part of the experience. Playing on an emulator with the save state feature just encourages you to play a perfect game where nobody dies, and that is absolutely the wrong way to play Fire Emblem.

I should clarify the lack of saving in the game. It's actually saving all the time, in other words you can turn off the game at any time, turn it back on, and be right where you left off. So I guess what I really mean is that a load anytime feature is what ruins the game, since you're not allowed to reload in order to take back a move, just restart the mission.

I see. So I'll need to exercise the iron restrain in an IronMan mode, and do not use load function in any circumstances. =) Tough. But I think I should be able to do it. After all, I sometimes invent all sorts of home rules that I enforce on myself when I play computer games, if I feel that the game would otherwise be too easy. =)

It worked fine for me for Sacred Stones and it's predecessor. I only tried Advanced Wars 1/2 for a level or two (I didn't like them), but they seemed to work too. You can easily check this out by hunting down the ROM first, and only buying the cartridge if it works.

VBA has a software filter for when you display at a larger than GBA resolution, with a bunch of different alogorithms for how to handle doubling the number of pixels: simple blocks of 4 pixels, anti-aliasing, etc. Different algorithms look better for different games; I liked "Super Eagle" for Fire Emblem.

Got it, thanks Jasper.

Regards,
Stormbinder

[Jasper]

I just started an IRONMAN game as well. So far I'm to scenario 6, and just got Ross promoted to Pirate. I managed to save the civilians from death by spider too, just barely, but unfortunately this strung me out a bit out and I couldn't wall all my soft units off. I had to leave Moulder hanging, but figured only one guy could get to him... Then a cavalry unit with a javelin came in out of the fog for the double team. :-(

I hadn't expect to lose anyone so soon, but fortunately I just got a replacement priest. If only I'd pulled back instead!

[Dave Perkins]

I just started an IRONMAN game as well. So far I'm to scenario 6, and just got Ross promoted to Pirate.
Wow, that's fast. I'm in scenario 5 and he's just level 6.

I managed to save the civilians from death by spider too, just barely, but unfortunately this strung me out a bit out and I couldn't wall all my soft units off. I had to leave Moulder hanging, but figured only one guy could get to him... Then a cavalry unit with a javelin came in out of the fog for the double team. :-(
That's a bad feeling.. when the camera switches to a point somewhere in the fog, then zips over toward your units.. a cavalry unit out of nowhere, and you have about half a second to realize that Moulder is up the creek.

[Jasper]

Ross is pretty easy to level up with his hatchet, and I always try to get kills to my lowest level units (as they get the most XP out of them). Judging from my previous aborted (non-ironman) game, Ross is a real powerhouse so it's well worth the effort. He's been getting shafted on attribute increases though. :-/

[Dave Perkins]

Ross just got splattered by Joshua in my game.

The thing that kills more of my characters than anything else are my bids to protect villages from being razed by enemy thugs. In Chapter 5 - The Empire's Reach, there are four villages spread throughout the level that provide items or conversations. I split my forces in two to get to all four villages before the bandits did. My left flank of Franz, Eirika and Moulder did great, but my right flank got creamed. Not only did Neimi die, but Seth died. One of the bandits surprised me with his ability to consecutively hit Gilliam, and both Neimi and Seth died trying to save him while also halting the advance of the bandits. I don't think the Armorslayer sword I got was worth the death of two units.

So I thought maybe Joshua, who is an enemy unit at the start of the chapter, would not attack Natasha if I placed her within his reach. Well, I won't know, because I put Ross a little behind her without checking that Joshua could reach him. Joshua skewered poor little Ross with a critical hit.

[Jasper]

Yowch! I don't recall having much trouble with Chapter 5 (That's the one with Joshua, right?), as Franz was able to handle the left side of the city almost all by himself (occasionally returning for healing), while Colm picked off the units just inside the left wall. Most of the action was packed right up the middle, but I just made sure those two surprise bandits on the right couldn't double team anyone, and offered up Gilliam as a sacrifice to lure Joshua forward into the trees (for his protection). The odds of Gilliam dying were pretty low, and I figured even if he did I was trading up. Everyone else stood a good chance of dying to Joshua with his high strength, speed, and critical.

[Stormbinder]

You can choose from three difficulty levels this time. Normal is fairly easy, and easy is like, "I suck at strategy games and Fire Emblem in general, but I'd still love to make it all the way through so won't you take pity on me?" easy.

I think you'll be fine. However, whatever you do don't wuss out by powerleveling!

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid170/p05755d40d7360eec724bee81d1978215/f3f8d029.jpg

-Kitsune

All right, I just started playing Sacred Stone game few hours ago.
I started on "easy" settings to become familiar with interface and read tips. Got until Chapter three while learning the basic techniques of fighting. Now I am restarting on a "Difficult" settings in a IronMan mode. So far I am enjoying the game quite a bit. (The only thing that is really pissing me off is high-pitched "Click!Click!Click!" sound every time anybody is saying anything in the game, one click for each character they pronounce. I wish the would be a way to turn this annoying sounds on, for me it is quite annoying.

But this is a minor grip. The game itself is quite engaging. I really dig perma death feature.

One question - what is that "powerleveling" Kitsune and others were reffering to? Is it "feeding" all exp to few character in your group? I so, is it bad because it leads to unbalanced party and the game being very easy on higher levels?

Also how the ammount of exp unit gets from fighting and killing is determined? I think I noticed then when my knight (captain of royal guards from chapter 0/1) kills regular enemy soldier, he gets very little exp. But when my other units kill the same type of soldier they get *much* more exp. Is it because my knight is too high level for these weak enemies? If so, should I fight weak enemies with my weaker soldiers? (or is this considered to be "powerleveling" I was asking earlier? :) )

Finally how the heck I suppose to determine which chars need to spend a lot of time in the "abjustant location" to enable "support converstaion/bonuses"?


Do they have to be in the squares next to each other, or is it enough that they are within the same distance from each other?

Should I go and read some guide that lists all supporting characters? I don't like the idea too much since it feels a bit like cheating. But I also wouldn't want to miss some interesting story or character development. (if it is somewhat similar to BG2's party banter which I loved)

Any suggestions?

Overall I really like this game so far, although I am still in the very earlier stages.

[DanielElliot]

Powerlevelling, which IMO is fine to do, but that's just me, is using a repeatable dungeon you'll open up later to level up your characters. It is definitely not referring to letting particular people you want to level up get most of the kills, which is a valid tactic.

Seth, the captain you're referring to, is a promoted unit. All your characters (save one or two) can change classes into something much more powerful from level 10 on, though it's best to save it for as close to level 20 as possible. Seth starts as a paladin, which is a promoted cavalier, basically as a crutch in case you get in trouble early on. So whatever level he is, add about 20 to that and you have his real level, which is why he's getting so little XP. Basically, don't use him unless you're in deep shit, at least for the first 10-15 chapters. After that, your other characters and the enemies will be at his level.

To initiate a support conversation, the characters need to be next to each other for a certain number of turns. It's cumulative, not consecutive, and can be spread out over multiple battles. Once they have a support going, they only need to be within 3 squares of each other to get the combat benefits.

Once you are able to manage items and characters between battles (I forget when that happens, but it's early), you'll be able to see who can have supports with whom. Just remember, each person only gets 5 conversations total. That means you can get your A level conversation with one person and another person to B level, or spread it out differently, but I'd highly recommend getting to A as it's more effective and can affect the character's ending.

IIRC, when someone dies, whoever they had supports with get their "slots" returned to them, so they can then go on with their lives and have supports with other people. On the other hand, when someone dies that you've gotten to B or A level with, you are going to be very sad.

[Jasper]

One question - what is that "powerleveling" Kitsune and others were reffering to?
Powerleving is using the Arena on some map or repeatedly using the monster tower to level all your units to the point where nothing threatens them. If you're playing Ironman the Arena is a bit risky, but the monster tower is pretty much safe inifinite experience points. My personal rule is to not use the monster tower, and that arena use is ok as long as I'm not prolonging the scenario just to milk the arena, or milking it for more than one battle a turn.

Also how the ammount of exp unit gets from fighting and killing is determined?
The experience a victory gives depends on the relative level of the victor/victem. The most effective approach is to try to level everyone evenly, keep an eye out for characters at low level with great potential (e.g. Ross), and give a very critical eye towards pre-promoted characters. Seth for example is a big XP sink, and in the long run just plain sucks -- it looks like he was promoted at level 10, and so as a result doesn't have great stats for his level, but still sucks XP as if he were level 21. You're much better off not letting him kill anything, ever. Innes maybe too, I'm on the fence with him.

Should I go and read some guide that lists all supporting characters? I don't like the idea too much since it feels a bit like cheating. But I also wouldn't want to miss some interesting story or character development. (if it is somewhat similar to BG2's party banter which I loved)
For the previous Fire Emblem IMHO you'd be better off looking at a FAQ as otherwise you didn't find out who could even have supports until pretty late, but in Sacred Stones you can check once you're able to pick which units go into battle.

[Dave Perkins]

I agree with what's just been said about powerleveling. I think a HARDCORE run should avoid the repeatable Tower completely, and only involve monster skirmishes when necessary (I'm not sure if any of them are necessary).

I'm in Chapter 6 - Victims of War and within three turns have lost Garcia. Again, my desire to help innocents has led to the death of a valued unit. On turn 2, I sent Franz to the fort in the middle of the map, which revealed seven enemy units who could strike him. Garcia was the only unit who could reach his side to block some of the enemy attacks. I sent him in and the enemy concentrated on him. It took six enemies to bring him down; but he joins his son Ross in a shallow grave.

It's great how easy the game makes it to imagine the scenario playing out like a fantasy novel: Franz gets in a pickle because he wants badly to save the River Folk trapped by the mountains; Garcia rushes to his side to help protect him, but dies in the attempt. I can almost hear Eirika shouting "No!" at Franz as he rushes through the woods to reach the fort, and almost see Garcia running into the woods after him..

[Jasper]

D'oh! I just finished Chapters 11 and 12. In 11 I lost L'Arachel while she was still independent! :-( She rushed over to heal a scouting and looting Colm, who didn't really need it, and I couldn't cover her before she got slain by the undead. Sleepy, I pressed on anyway and managed to drop both Saleh and Ewan in Chapter 12, both to rampaging Gargoyles. Saleh went out with a bit too much enthuisiasm -- killing Gargoyles too quickly and leaving room for a wave of further ones to attack. Ewan on the other hand just didn't see it coming... poor kid. I did manage to promote Amelia to Knight though, which looks like it'll pay off well if I can keep her alive.

[Dave Perkins]

Excellent tales, though sad ones, Jasper. The loss of L'Arachel while she is still independent is a harsh twist.

I finished Chapter 6 - Victims of War, saving just one River Folk, who actually was attacked by a Spider to 2 hit points, poisoned, rescued by Colm, hurried across the mountains back to Natasha, who healed him just after the poison took him to 1 hit point.

Sadly, Franz's rush to the fort (see my last post) cost more lives; after Garcia fell, and enemy cavalry reinforcements came down from the north, I had to risk all of my units to try and save my chances of rescuing any River Folk. Colm and Artur crawled up on the mountain range and drew fire while the others rushed here and there killing whom they could. An enemy archer survived to slay Vanessa, putting a huge crimp in my rescue plans. Moulder was killed by a cavalry unit--probably the same cavalry that killed Moulder in Jasper's game!

So I'm down to eight characters: Eirika, Franz, Artur, Lute, Natasha, Colm, Gilliam, and Joshua. Chapter 7 allows me to take eight characters. Easy choice, anyhow!

[Dave Perkins]

Those eight characters have been enough to see me through the first two chapters of Ephraim's storyline without any casualties. In Chapter 10 - Turning Traitor, I never could get Ephraim close to Duessel to convert him, because of the horde of cavalry that reinforce midway through the level behind my advance. Ephraim was required to hold the rear lines. Fortunately, Duessel converts after the chapter ends, regardless.

I also didn't come close to killing Beran, the enemy boss, within the alloted 10 turns.

An interesting twist: in my last IRONMAN run, Gilliam finished the game having gained exactly two levels, total. This time, I have already upgraded him to a General, just halfway through the game. I also have an upgraded Colm (to Assassin)--hooray! The next chapter allows 11 players and I have 14.. what luxury.

[Dave Perkins]

Gee willikers.. this is nuts. Just three turns into Chapter 11 - Phantom Ship, a group of five enemy wyverns, including a boss, appear just two squares off the port side of the ship, within striking range of every friendly unit. I flew Tana from the ship to the north to draw off one of the enemy wyverns, but forgot that some Crimson Eyes hover near there, waiting for just such an opportunity. She's fallen into the sea. I haven't played my next turn, because I can't see how I will be able to survive the next couple of attacks without losing another unit, perhaps Amelia or Natasha. Either loss would be heinous.

[balut]

Phantom Ship is generally regarded to be one of the hardest levels in the game.

[Dave Perkins]

Phantom Ship is generally regarded to be one of the hardest levels in the game.

Frightening!

[Jasper]

Gee willikers.. this is nuts. Just three turns into Chapter 11 - Phantom Ship, a group of five enemy wyverns, including a boss, appear just two squares off the port side of the ship, within striking range of every friendly unit. I flew Tana from the ship to the north to draw off one of the enemy wyverns, but forgot that some Crimson Eyes hover near there, waiting for just such an opportunity. She's fallen into the sea. I haven't played my next turn, because I can't see how I will be able to survive the next couple of attacks without losing another unit, perhaps Amelia or Natasha. Either loss would be heinous.
Can you back off and present a more limited set of targets, surround the weaker units, use walls, or rescue soft units with someone tough like Gilliam or a cavalry who can get out of reach? Do they have Javelins or Spears? If you can just get a turn to nail them with your mages you should be fine; Ross would've helped too...

[Dave Perkins]

Can you back off and present a more limited set of targets, surround the weaker units, use walls, or rescue soft units with someone tough like Gilliam or a cavalry who can get out of reach? Do they have Javelins or Spears? If you can just get a turn to nail them with your mages you should be fine; Ross would've helped too...
I did what I could, but there was no getting out of reach of any of the enemy units. The foot units were no big deal, but there were ten aerial units, including a boss, to consider; over half of them had ranged attacks, and my ship was completely surrounded. I made it through the first 15 or so attacks before Joshua, on one of the gangplanks, finally succumbed to a combination of foot and aerial units, and then the remaining aerial units focused on Ephraim. Weakened to 15 hit points, he fell to a double attack by the enemy boss. The boss was the last enemy unit to move, too -- argh!

Ross would definitely have helped.

IRONMAN = start over! I really wish I could have lasted in this game; it was pretty cool to be down to just eight units a few chapters ago. But this surprise attack in this chapter is the most brutal I've seen in this game.

[Jasper]

Heh, so much for worrying about Amelia and Natasha!

[Dave Perkins]

Roger that.. they were nestled safely inside the perimeter. The enemy got lucky versus Ephraim, connecting on three consecutive shots with 60% or less chance to hit. I was definitely playing it risky, though.

[Dave Perkins]

A week has passed and I think I've restarted a half dozen times. I'm playing impatiently to get back to the Phantom Ship. This most recent play, however, I've been a lot more patient. My only loss thus far was Artur, who whiffed on a 97% chance to hit and got donged by a Bandit who had less than 50% chance to hit. I think that's the first whiff I've seen in the 90%-99% range in approximately 3,000 battles.

[Dave Perkins]

I officially hope all River Folk die in all subsequent games I play, and in all games you play. Leave them for the spiders.

In Chapter 6 - Victims of War, I played great for a while. No foolhardy rushes to the middle like last time, and lots of torchlight to show what I was facing. I sent Seth (yes, I took Seth, hoping he could handle a flank alone to allow me to save all three River Folk) up north by himself, where a Bandit with a Halberd (an anti-cavalry weapon) demolished Seth with a single hit.

With my north vulnerable, and enemy cavalry approaching from the rear, I sent Colm ahead a bit far, where some lucky hits from an enemy Knight and Mercenary slew him. The next turn, Natasha fell when I couldn't properly surround her in the patch of forest she was cowering in. Entirely without any source of light at this point, I flew Vanessa blind to the aid of the River Folk; she hauled two from the mountain pass and dropped them on the plains. Before she could scoop the second one up again and fly her toward my army, the Spider emerged from the fog onto the plains and killed the River Folk girl.

So my score on this Chapter:

River Folk saved: 1
River Folk killed: 2
Units lost: Seth (ugh), Natasha (UGH), Colm (UGH!!!!!!)

But if I'd saved all three River Folk, maybe I would have won an Elixir or an Iron Sword!!! Ugh.

[Jasper]

Heh. :-) Reward? Surely you're saving them because it's the right thing to do!

I've had my best luck sending my fast units in a bunch around the south, while using Colm to scout enemy positions and pick a nice spot to pull the first wave of enemies to. I pretty much yield the north, sending Vanessa around deep into the south using the heavy SE terrain to keep out of reach of as many enemies as possible, and try to have someone nearby who can take any rescued River Folk off her hands so she can immediately grab another.

For me, rescuing the River Folk seems easy, but holding off the surprising rush of cavalry from the north is more problematic. I'm thinking it may be best to forego the middle of the map too, although the defensive terrain can sure come in handy.

Anyway, I'm holding off on playing further until you catch up again. Get to it! ;-)

[Dave Perkins]

Heh. :-) Reward? Surely you're saving them because it's the right thing to do!

The first ten tries were all about the valor. Now it's about the items (and the DYING).

For me, rescuing the River Folk seems easy, but holding off the surprising rush of cavalry from the north is more problematic. I'm thinking it may be best to forego the middle of the map too, although the defensive terrain can sure come in handy.

I hadn't thought about sending everyone south; then the edge of the map can afford some protection. If I have to play this chapter again someday, I think I'll try that!

I'm dreading my return to Chapter 11 - Phantom Ship. There's nowhere to hide on that level. At least the nine units I still have are varied (axes, swords, lances, magic, flying, healing) and growing powerful quickly.

[Dave Perkins]

GRAWWWWWWW!

I'm in the middle of Chapter 9 - Fort Rigwald; last chapter, Ross died, and this chapter, his father Garcia has died. No more axe wielders. Ross died because my units were overwhelmed, but Garcia died because I was up at the nursing home visiting my gramps, and the nurse came in and interrupted my flow. I had made a mental note ("Rescue Garcia so he can't be killed by the dude with the Killing Edge") but the nurse's entrance knocked the idea from my head. After she left, I hit End Turn and got to see Garcia skewered on the tip of a sword.

I honestly considered using "Restart Chapter" for a few seconds, but IRONMAN must be RESPECTED. I really wonder how I'm gonna manage without either axe user on Chapter 11. Garcia was a total stud, too: level 15, and his stats had gotten some lucky boosts.

[Jasper]

You could try to level up your cavalry, and promote them to the axe-wielding mounted knights. It always sticks in my craw to promote anyone before level 20, but if it helps get you past a tough scenario.

I find my cavalry tends to get lots of experience and level up first anyway. Something about the high movement, and choice of sword or lance so it's hard to get caught on a bad footing.

[Dave Perkins]

Right-o! Last time, my cavalry were the butt-kickers, but this time, I really focused on Gilliam (axe) and Vanessa (flying). Right now, Vanessa can slice through enemy mages like they're n00bs. I'm hoping she can deal with the enemy Wyvern boss in Chapter 11.

Trouble with leveling my cavalry at this point (all three are level 10-12) is that I only have one chapter left before I hit Chapter 11, where I died last time. Also, I only have one Knight's Crest! I have some interesting choices to make, and very soon.

[olaf]

I have had this game a while but only recently finished the first one (still havent finished Path of Radiance), finally, so I hadnt played it much until recently.

I like the overland travel because it enables you to hit the shops if you run out of gear and you dont have to guess what you will need in the future as much. Also, the supply convoy is a lot more functional than Merlinus was. I havent messed around with the dungeons much but I do like to go clean up the monster incursions when they happen. I despise the fog missions though.

Amelia seems unkillable after getting her to General, mine has like 20 defense and 20 resistance and she is only like a level 2 general. Ross is a berserking powerhouse who one shots nearly everything. All 3 of the little junior units whip ass, really. Although Ewan is the least powerful of the three for me. I made him a Shaman thinking I'd be able to keep using the Anima magic too, denied. I have had a few no stat gain level ups though, with various characters, that is infuriating. The range seems to be 0-6 stats up per level, with 6 about as rare as 0. They ought to narrow that down some IMO.

As with the first game, I dont have much luck with support. It just seems like a ton of work to get the conversations unlocked and then just as much work making sure the two characters are in range so the bonuses take effect. I like the way Path of Radiance handles it much better, you get credit towards a support convo just by having the eligible characters present for the battle. So you dont have to move people around and worry about keeping units you want to 'bond' adjacent to each other. Once you have unlocked the conversations you get the stat bonuses the same way, keep them within 3 squares (I think).

I am not playing IRONMAN, and after reading this thread I feel shamed. I might restart.

Anyway, Fire Emblem is a great series and the Wii one will get me to buy a Wii. I want a DS version too.

olaf

[Jab2565]

I should consider going back to finsh Fire emblem 2. I got stuck at the mission or 2 before the end. The one when you have to protect a throne room . I can't for the life of me get thru it without getting one person killed.

[DanielElliot]

So...one person gets killed. It's kind of the point. You don't have to play IRONMAN!!! (I certainly don't), but you shouldn't try to have zero casualties or you'll never get through it. It sucks all the fun out.

[Jab2565]

I don't play ironman, but I'm a completist in that sense.

[Warning]

I am just crazy addicted to this game. I've been working on it slowly over the last several months but something recently "clicked" for me and I've been going at it pretty hard the last day or two. I'm not playing it IRONMAN or anything but I am playing on Medium and Vanessa is a flying death machine and Ross is a butt-kicking pirate.

I have Path of Radiance but there's something about curling up with the DS that's so nice. I don't know that I'll get into it as much playing in front of the TV.

[driillSGT]

This is the only DS game that I ever played through twice. I completed the game on 'Normal mode' about a year ago and then came back to it this year and finished it on 'Hard mode'.

Confirmed, Ross can become quite a badass, but sadly Vanessa died in her first battle on my play through :(

[Warning]

Vanessa seems to be getting insane stat bonuses with each level up. I'm guessing it's just luck but as long as I keep her away from archers, she's deadly.

I'm not sure why some characters (and opponents) get to attack twice sometimes and only once at other times. Am I missing a stat somewhere that tells you this?

[driillSGT]

If I remember correctly, they will get an extra attack if the creature they are attacking is significantly weaker.

[shang]

Isn't the number of strikes dependent on the speed stat and weapon weight. That's compared to the opponents speed, so you get extra strikes against slower enemies.

[driillSGT]

Isn't the number of strikes dependent on the speed stat and weapon weight. That's compared to the opponents speed, so you get extra strikes against slower enemies.

Sounds right to me.

[Justin Fletcher]

It's something like if one opponent's speed is double or more than the other opponent's speed after factors like weight are factored in, then the faster opponent gets a double attack.

However, I've always wished that you could choose whether or not to exercise that second attack. I've had too many heroes go down by the death of a thousand cuts when guarding a narrow passage or entryway. One of my men destroys the weakling in front of them with the second blow, which allows another weakling to attack, and on and on until my man's health bar has been whittled away by ten or so consecutive attacks.

[shang]

In cases like those, it is sometimes beneficial to unequip the weapon from the character who's blocking the enemy and use some ranged character to deal the damage. That way you can better control the damage he sustains.

[Jasper]

Vanessa seems to be getting insane stat bonuses with each level up. I'm guessing it's just luck but as long as I keep her away from archers, she's deadly.
It is random, but also character dependent. I've read that each character has a specific chance for each stat to increase, and that these chances are all independent, which is why you sometimes get a bunch, and other times get nothing.

I'm not sure why some characters (and opponents) get to attack twice sometimes and only once at other times. Am I missing a stat somewhere that tells you this?
It's been a while, but I believe that if your speed is 4 higher than your opponents, you get 2 attacks?

Weapon Weight I don't think has anything to do with attack speed, but rather decreases your chance to hit if it's greater than some stat, though I forget which one (CON maybe? I vaguely recall it's not STR).

[Justin Fletcher]

In cases like those, it is sometimes beneficial to unequip the weapon from the character who's blocking the enemy and use some ranged character to deal the damage. That way you can better control the damage he sustains.
I don't think I've ever realized that you can completely unequip a character, and I don't think that solution would have occurred to me even if I had. That's a great tip for my next play through. Thanks!