Can't decide which paradox game to play first

[Rob_Merritt]

I picked up the Paradox Strategy 6-Pack this week. Got hyped up over Supreme Ruler 2010 and I realized I never played any of Paradox's games. They just slide under my radar. Out of Hearts of Iron, Europa Universalis II, Victoria, Two Thrones, and Crown of the North, what should I try first? Sone other forums recomend Europa Universalis II but I kinda of interested in Hearts of Iron. (yes its WWII and I HATE WWII now days but the engine seems fun)

[Troy S Goodfellow]

I think EU2 is the best of the lot, but it can be a little intimidating without some guidance. (The official forums are good for that.) Once you get the hang of it, though, I doubt you will find a better historical strategy game.

The only really user friendly ones in that pack are Two Thrones and Crown of the North, but they are really intro games for people who have never played any strategy game before - I wouldn't recommend them for anyone over 12 or 13.

Hearts of Iron is a monster of a game, but can be a lot of fun. It has the advantage of familiar terrain - you know what Russia and Germany have to do to win. For this reason, it is not a bad starter game though the recent sequel is even better for that since it is more newbie friendly.

Victoria is not for the weak. It is a micromanager's dream, but doesn't have enough of the fun stuff to keep it on my HD for long.

Troy

[Jon Edwards]

I think EU2 is far and away the best of their games. It is pretty inscrutable at first, but it's not really that complicated.

You could have fun with HoI as well. I didn't bother with HoI 2 because they didn't improve the AI.

I didn't try Vicky. I thought I'd look at it after, say, a year's worth of patches, but they didn't support it.

[Troy S Goodfellow]

I think EU2 is far and away the best of their games. It is pretty inscrutable at first, but it's not really that complicated.

Yeah, with most of these games it's not an issue of complicated as much as it is an issue of knowing where to start. In EU2, you have exploration, war, diplomacy, infrastructure, tech, colonization...and there is a temptation to think that you have to focus on one at a time. Fortunately, most things take so long to get done that the multi-tasking becomes a series of tasks.

The trick is not losing track of your grand plan. Few games reward forward thinking as much.

Troy

[tglennow]

EU2 is a wonderful game, and probably their best one. It's hard to go back to it after playing Hearts of Iron though for some reason. The CotN and TT ones are kind of starter games, so if you want an intro to the Paradox way of playing they might be worth trying first.

[Rod Humble]

EU II.

Remember by clicking on a countries flag at the start you can change it to play any nation in the game. So its lots of fun to play Burma for example and much more manageable for a beginner than the larger powers.

Btw if you like that style of play (small provinces and local politics) Crusader Kings is truly excellent.

[Troy S Goodfellow]

EU II.

Remember by clicking on a countries flag at the start you can change it to play any nation in the game. So its lots of fun to play Burma for example and much more manageable for a beginner than the larger powers.

Right clicking.

And I recommend staying away from the small countries until you are more familiar with how everything works. With a small country you have to know why you are not doing anything for ten years. Larger countries are a better introduction so long as there is not too much happening at once.

Take France in the 1492 scenario. No pressure to explore and you can learn war and diplomacy. It's a rich country, too, so you can see how money works.

Troy

[Xemu]

EU2 is the highest "fun factor" of the bunch.

HOI2 has probably the easiest learning factor, since they finally have a somewat non-sucky tutorial and the "battle scenarios" that reasonably cut out significant portions of the game. Avoid HOI1 though, it's a nightmare to learn & super micro-managey.

Really though they are all good in that special Paradox way (and horrible in that same way) so I think you should go with whichever subject matter you like the most...

[HRose]

EU II.

Remember by clicking on a countries flag at the start you can change it to play any nation in the game. So its lots of fun to play Burma for example and much more manageable for a beginner than the larger powers.

Btw if you like that style of play (small provinces and local politics) Crusader Kings is truly excellent.
What I'm failing to grasp is to consider all the group of games as all unique products. My point of view is that if HoI is good the next chapter is supposed to be better.

I know that comparing all of them is hard but what are the actual differences in gameplay and scope between HoI2 (the one I have), EU2 and CK?

HoI2 is the most recent but EU2 seems to remain the real "best". Is this because of the sense of nostalgia or because EU2 has something really unique? And specifically what?

CK comes next to EU2 but how it relates to it?

[Kalle]

The main reason that I prefer EU2 over HoI1&2 is because of the scale, the micromanagement and the fighting.

All of these issues are pretty much interconnected so I'll start with the scale. EU2 models 400 years of history, HoI only six. This means that your longterm goals are going to be radically different in scope. The combat is the weak spot in all paradox games, there's little fun in it. EU2 has pretty simple combat mechanics but they're functional. Because of the way the strategic game is set up you try to avoid drawn out wars since they have a very negative impact on your economy and they incite rebellions. The game plays out mainly as stretches of time where you try to advance your economy, interspersed with short violent conflicts where you try to take advantage of weak neighbours (for instance, they just cancelled an alliance, they're in a war against three other countries, etc) or where your neighbours try to take advantage of your weakness to further your long-term objectives. Your typically have very few standing armies.

In HoI all that goes out the window. You have a short window of time to build up your economy and then the war is on. You're tasked with controlling as much as hundreds of units at once and throughout most of the game you will be moving and fighting with them while your strategic planning takes the backseat. The combat is deeper than in EU2, but it also adds tons more micromanagement with a time scale set in hours and a lot more options for moving and supporting units.

[Rod Humble]

Hrose:

Pretty much I agree with Kalle.

I guess it comes down to what you want out of these games. I find EU 2 and CK more enjoyable becuase I can just lose myself in generations of leaders with wars coming and going but really my aim is to just carry on the country or line.

HoI 2 felt a lot more like a game that I was under pressure to win at because there were not dozens of other leaders or countries out there fighting each other for me to play one off against the other.

I guess EU2 and CK are more enjoyable to me because I can happily play a footnote to history which few games let you do.

One extra benefit is EU2 & CK cover a very interesting period of history which I know little about so I enjoy having my curiosity piqued as I play then do some follow up reading to see what actually happened.

[Samurai]

Kalle says it best, EU 2 is supreme. Time is tight in the HOI series and Victoria, whereas EU 2 allows you years upon years to slowly bring your country to greatness.

[Lum]

I know that comparing all of them is hard but what are the actual differences in gameplay and scope between HoI2 (the one I have), EU2 and CK?

Europa Universalis 2 has a huge scope (entire world, 1400 to 1820) and fairly simple rules. It's actually based on a board wargame, and the various game systems are pretty transparent.

Crusader Kings has a smaller scope (Europe only, 1066 to 1400) and a different focus; manipulating your family and associated nobles instead of solely marching armies around the map.

Hearts of Iron 2 has a huge scope (entire world, 1936 to 1948) but thanks to learning from most of the mistakes of its predecessor is pretty accessible. (Well, relatively speaking.) The underlying game systems are still pretty opaque, though; critical concepts like your country's transport network directly affecting your units' combat strength aren't well detailed at all. Still, it's fun if you put effort into learning the system.

Crusader Kings is probably the easiest due to the limited scope. They're all recommended, although I'd avoid Paradox's other titles (Hearts of Iron 1 and Victoria) as having fatal flaws.

[Walter Yarbrough]

Bear in mind, the product he's purchased has HOI, not HOI2, so all of these "Play HOI2" posts are not providing assistance ;).

http://www.compusa.com/products/product_info.asp?product_code=318803&pfp=BROWSE

For what he's got - EU2 is probably the best of the bunch, but I'm no expert, since that's the only one I've played :)

-Walt

[Troy S Goodfellow]

Kalle pretty much nailed the reasons why EU2 continues to entertain where the "sequels" do not. Scope, ease of play and enough events to give the game historical flavor without pushing the player down an historical railway.

I think that Paradox got a little carried away by the love piled on them by the hardcore fans - most of whom want a game that is "harder"; after all EU2 was easy enough that it only provided a real challenge to a moderately skilled player on Hard or Very Hard. As a consequence, Victoria got bogged down in minutiae and Hearts of Iron was needlessly complicated. I still think the Industrial Capacity metric is pointlessly confusing for most newcomers.

I love Crusader Kings primarily because it is so simple. It too has fatal flaws, but they are mostly forgivable in light of the chance to run a medieval soap opera.

Troy

[Kalle]

EU2 also has a lot more potential for "what if" scenarios and alternate history. A lot of the fun, at least for me, is to compare my progress to real history and see where history branches off. Now, you do this in HoI too, to a certain degree, but in EU2 you can see the rise of Genua as a major power, watch France be destroyed in the hundred years war, See Russia advance into Germany, etc. Or, as usually happens in my games when I'm not restraining myself, see Sweden conquer all of Europe. ;)

[moss_icon]

i picked up HoI2 the other week, installed it, had a beer, fired up the tutorial, gaped open mouthed at the screen for a minute, exited, uninstalled it, and sold it on amazon market place to some guy in portugal for £1 more than i paid for it. :?