View Full Version : Get ready to upgrade your computers
Rob_Merritt
04-30-2005, 09:07 PM
Just get a rough idea of what we will need to game come fall 2006:
http://www.microsoft-watch.com/article2/0,1995,1790569,00.asp
"Longhorn will provide an absolutely fabulous gaming experience," Russell told WinHEC attendees. In order to be able to take the fullest advantage of Longhorn as a gaming platform, Russell suggested PC makers gravitate toward 64-bit dual-core processors, 1 GB of memory, [2]56 MB of graphics memory and advanced LDDM support.
Shadari
04-30-2005, 09:44 PM
What exactly is Longhorn going to bring to the table as far as gaming goes?
Brad Grenz
04-30-2005, 09:50 PM
~$180 of your money.
Nick Walter
05-01-2005, 12:07 AM
What exactly is Longhorn going to bring to the table as far as gaming goes?
It's not that Longhorn offers anything new for gaming, it's really more of a "Microsoft is a monopoly so upgrade isn't optional" situation.
I'm perfectly happy with Win98 still, but I had to upgrade to XP because games stopped working on Win98.
When all the developers start developing games on Longhorn than the clock starts ticking towards mandatory Longhorn upgrade for gamers.
Warning
05-01-2005, 12:40 AM
What exactly is Longhorn going to bring to the table as far as gaming goes?
A push toward the Xbox 360.
What exactly is Longhorn going to bring to the table as far as gaming goes?
To answer this question a bit more seriously, Longhorn will have DirectX (now called Windows Graphics Foundation) as the underlying core for desktop graphics. Since the basic graphics API will be 3D, rather than 3D being tacked onto the OS, we'll probably see more interesting stuff.
For example, when a game runs full screen today, it locks all of the graphics card memory. But WGF will instead only have exclusive access to one monitor when a game requests it. There can be multiple exclusive locks, for each monitor, if you have more than one.
You can also have 3D games that are intergrated into the desktop, rather than run as something separate.
Gendal
05-01-2005, 01:28 AM
With longhorn theoretically you shouldn't have to reboot for new video card drivers, and even if the drivers crash the screen should just go black and come right back up with the reloaded drivers.
Of course this will just make things worse in the beginning no doubt, but I have high hopes for a year or two after release.
Chris Nahr
05-01-2005, 02:28 AM
You will finally be able to scale the desktop font to any desired size, without screwing up the GUI layout of half your applications and having the other half completely ignore your new font size.
Okay, not exactly related to gaming...
Sean Tudor
05-01-2005, 04:50 AM
Just get a rough idea of what we will need to game come fall 2006:
It's a shame there won't be many more PC games being released to take advantage of all this "power".
Chris Nahr
05-01-2005, 04:54 AM
But thanks to XNA you'll play many more games with big-eyed fairies and magical mushrooms on your Windows computer! :wink:
Midnight Son
05-01-2005, 05:35 AM
Microsoft always promises the world and delivers a trailer park in Aurora, Ill.
wildpokerman
05-01-2005, 05:47 AM
They forgot to mention the bullet proof firewall and security software you'll need.
Sweet. Moving away from GDI is good.
Rob_Merritt
05-01-2005, 08:38 AM
Just get a rough idea of what we will need to game come fall 2006:
It's a shame there won't be many more PC games being released to take advantage of all this "power".
From what I've seen and read, fall 2006 is suppose to be a "relaunch" of PC gaming and they are working with publishers and developers towards that goal. Whether it actually happens is another matter.
Poops McGee
05-01-2005, 08:58 AM
Microsoft always promises the world and delivers a trailer park in Aurora, Ill.
No, you're thinking of Peter Molyneux.
Midnight Son
05-01-2005, 01:22 PM
Microsoft always promises the world and delivers a trailer park in Aurora, Ill.
No, you're thinking of Peter Molyneux.
No, he only delivers an outhouse in Aurora, Ill.
Jason Cross
05-01-2005, 02:21 PM
Longhorn will feature a new driver model which should make it easier to upgrade most of the drivers on your computer without rebooting.
The new driver model should also be less crash-prone, leading to less crash-prone games where drivers are the culprit.
Longhorn PCs will be able to work with all Xbox 360 controllers. So if you want to play a game on your PC that's sort of gamepad-centric, you don't need a PC gamepad. You'll have a wireless gamepad on the Xbox 360 (should you happen to buy that). This is also part of a push toward a "standard PC game button layout" so games on the PC that use gamepads aren't so confusing to set up. Other Xbox 360 peripherals should work as well. The Xbox 360 Live headset, for instance.
There is still enough that we don't know about what will be in Longhorn that we don't know specifically what it will mean to gamers. Most of what we've heard will be cool and good to have, but not for gaming specifically.
Igor Muravyev
05-01-2005, 02:27 PM
Don't worry judgding by the # of things Microsoft has cut, they'll probably cut the 3d desktop as well. And they'll still deliver it later then promised.
That's just how it is, get used to it or switch to Linux :).
Derek Meister
05-01-2005, 02:28 PM
I think I'd be less skeptical of future gaming offerings if Microsoft hadn't managed to ship Win XP with the 60Hz refresh-rate problem.
I'm perfectly happy with Win98 still,
I kinda have a hard time believing this statement, honestly.
Yeah. I could never stand a non-NT OS.
95-98-me were alright for brain dead consumers, but yeah....
Igor Muravyev
05-01-2005, 02:44 PM
Yeah. I could never stand a non-NT OS.
95-98-me were alright for brain dead consumers, but yeah....
You gotta admit, they were a step-up from 3.0 ;)
Nick Walter
05-01-2005, 02:55 PM
Yeah. I could never stand a non-NT OS.
95-98-me were alright for brain dead consumers, but yeah....
You have that backwards. 95-98 were a problem for brain dead consumers. People who knew how to keep them stable never had a problem.
For me, the upgrade to WinXP from Win98 offered no stability improvements, because I never had Win98 stability problems.
Then consider yourself extremely lucky.
Shadari
05-01-2005, 03:48 PM
It's a shame there won't be many more PC games being released to take advantage of all this "power".
I don't know... the pipeline looks pretty full for the foreseeable future.
shift6
05-01-2005, 04:36 PM
Yeah. I could never stand a non-NT OS.
95-98-me were alright for brain dead consumers, but yeah....
You have that backwards. 95-98 were a problem for brain dead consumers. People who knew how to keep them stable never had a problem.
For me, the upgrade to WinXP from Win98 offered no stability improvements, because I never had Win98 stability problems.
There's a few of us here. :) I think I was one of the last vocal Win98SE users on QT3. I had to upgrade to WinXP for Thief 3 because Eidos is a fuck. Then the other day I installed Thief 1 and 2 to replay them (having received those 3 "Thief stuff" DVDs) and irony of ironies: they aren't designed to work under WinXP. Ain't that a bitch? I have to hack and tweak and run potentially law-violating (DMCA) patches on software that I bought so I can actually fucking use it. Or since I didn't really buy the software but only a license to use it, this is them revoking that license through obsolescence.
Turns out my next step will be (as I think Igor mentioned above) an all-Linux desktop. The only thing I do now that requires Windows is gaming and the Cedega project (http://www.transgaming.com/) is now much better at running Windows games in Linux than even a couple years ago (including all three Thief games), plus many of the games that I play have Linux support nowadays. I'm not going to buy a whole new Microsoft OS again because it has better fucking driver crash protection and a desktop GDI more closely integrated with Direct-X.
One other bad point nobody has mentioned is that legacy compatibility is supposed to go out the Window in a much more total way than it did in the ME -> XP transition.
One thing users should be aware of is that Longhorn will include a new kernel and will thus not offer the same level of compatibility with legacy 16-bit and 32-bit code that Windows XP does today. For business users, Microsoft believes that Virtual PC 2007 will help broaden corporations' compatibility options. But the company will also ship an early release of the Longhorn Compatibility Toolkit in 2005 to get users ready for the changes.
Here (http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/longhorn_preview_2005.asp)
Igor Muravyev
05-01-2005, 06:16 PM
One other bad point nobody has mentioned is that legacy compatibility is supposed to go out the Window in a much more total way than it did in the ME -> XP transition.
One thing users should be aware of is that Longhorn will include a new kernel and will thus not offer the same level of compatibility with legacy 16-bit and 32-bit code that Windows XP does today. For business users, Microsoft believes that Virtual PC 2007 will help broaden corporations' compatibility options. But the company will also ship an early release of the Longhorn Compatibility Toolkit in 2005 to get users ready for the changes.
Here (http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/longhorn_preview_2005.asp)
Wait, wait, supposed?
Let's try that again... it already did -- in the RTM version of Windows XP Professional x64 there is absolutely zero 16-bit support and I believe the kernel is pure 64-bit as well using WoW64 to give 32-bit support.
That's all right though, you can dual boot between the 32-bit and 64-bit just fine (I know I do). It's only a matter of time before someone releases a win64 binary for DOSBox for really old games.
Nick Walter
05-01-2005, 07:14 PM
Then consider yourself extremely lucky.
In my experience, there's no such thing as luck.
DennyA
05-01-2005, 07:22 PM
It's funny... Years ago I predicted we'd see a "386 with VESA graphics" emulator for future PCs. And now with stuff like DOSBox we have it.
Without making any comment on what Longhorn is or isn't doing, as far as games go I'd love to see a DOSBox/Virtual PC style emulator with these features:
• Scalable CPU speed... Say, 286/12 to 486DX/50
• Old school 3D graphics -- Glide and maybe support for early DirectX
• VESA 2D graphics
• SoundBlaster 16 emulation
• Joystick support (map USB sticks to the old port 220 gameport sticks
• Support for Win 98SE (to run old Windows games)
• A built-in manager for multiple CONFIG.SYS/Autoexec.bat settings
Not too much to ask, is it? ;-) The market would probably be pretty small, but hopefully an effort like DOSBox could eventually evolve this far so that we could continue to access the old library of games.
(That said, despite having kept a collection of flight sims going back to the 386 days, I have them all boxed up and ready to go on eBay... I never go back and play anything older than Falcon 4.0 anymore...)
mouselock
05-01-2005, 07:27 PM
One other bad point nobody has mentioned is that legacy compatibility is supposed to go out the Window in a much more total way than it did in the ME -> XP transition.
Define legacy. If you mean old DOS apps, I expect it won't be too much longer before DOSBox can encapsulate that completely. There's no particular reason I can think of it shouldn't be able to, except for needing someone to program it. Being able to do quick graphical things in a window (currently tough to impossible with the slowness of GDI) should help.
Nick Walter
05-01-2005, 08:54 PM
Define legacy. If you mean old DOS apps, I expect it won't be too much longer before DOSBox can encapsulate that completely. There's no particular reason I can think of it shouldn't be able to, except for needing someone to program it. Being able to do quick graphical things in a window (currently tough to impossible with the slowness of GDI) should help.
The old DOS apps are well handled by DOSBox, but there's still a gap between DOSBox coverage and what modern Windows will run. Specifically, very early directx games. Most of them find some special way to blow up or only run in suboptimal modes on modern systems.
My absolutest favorist giant robot game of all time, Missionforce Cyberstorm, refuses to run normally on my WinXP system. I can use a bunch of ugly hacks and workarounds to get it rurnning in 640x480 mode or I can walk over to my wifes old Win98 system and play it in 1280x1024 with 32 bit color.
mouselock
05-01-2005, 09:14 PM
Define legacy. If you mean old DOS apps, I expect it won't be too much longer before DOSBox can encapsulate that completely. There's no particular reason I can think of it shouldn't be able to, except for needing someone to program it. Being able to do quick graphical things in a window (currently tough to impossible with the slowness of GDI) should help.
The old DOS apps are well handled by DOSBox, but there's still a gap between DOSBox coverage and what modern Windows will run. Specifically, very early directx games. Most of them find some special way to blow up or only run in suboptimal modes on modern systems.
My absolutest favorist giant robot game of all time, Missionforce Cyberstorm, refuses to run normally on my WinXP system. I can use a bunch of ugly hacks and workarounds to get it rurnning in 640x480 mode or I can walk over to my wifes old Win98 system and play it in 1280x1024 with 32 bit color.
Sure, but you can't exactly bemoan the lack of legacy support in Longhorn if current windows mucks it up too. ;)
Really, I have no clue how Microsoft managed to implement a graphics API which is supposed to be backwards compatible yet isn't. I can only assume that it's some combination of Microsoft stupidity and programmers taking cheap, non-API approved tricks. I have similar issues with MTG for the PC (which, dammit, I would still play if I could get it to install; I hear it's patchable once you get it to install, but the installer craps out on me!).
Theoretically, unless the programmers hacked around the API, it should be encapsulatable like any DOSBox setup is. If they were hacking into DLLs, though, there may be issues. (I guess it depends on whether it's possible to virtualize an older version of Windows and include/find/rewrite the necessary functions; that all sounds like it's far more effort than it's worth, although this has to be what WINE essentially does on Linux.)
So the main reason why low level stuff such as drivers etc suck for back compatability is because hardware manufacturers, well, lets just say the difference between what they are supposed to deliver and what they do deliver is great.
I knew a guy on the HAL team, and 500k of code implemented the hal in an ivory tower. The other 19 megs were hacks to support hardware manufacturers. Creative was an especially notorious offender.
On the xbox, where the entire system is controlled, Direct x only takes 120 K.
Also, if you didn't know, Dx 1 and 2 were developed by monolith.
Sean Tudor
05-02-2005, 04:10 AM
From what I've seen and read, fall 2006 is suppose to be a "relaunch" of PC gaming and they are working with publishers and developers towards that goal. Whether it actually happens is another matter.
Well one can only hope. But given that the next round of consoles is due for launch I predict most devs will follow the money trail.
What, you think xNA isn't already ported to windows? Having a Dx API that doesn't have to sit at a user level kicks ass. Kernel mode baby, all the way.
Also, the .net hosting APIs and sql2005. Got Fibers?
DeepT
05-02-2005, 07:42 AM
I'm perfectly happy with Win98 still,
I kinda have a hard time believing this statement, honestly.
I suppose if your not a developer you may not appriactge the difference between XP and 98. I used 98 for a long time and thought it was fine. Eventually I went with windows XP. Then I started developing stuff that had to work under 98 and XP, and only then I realised how incredibly shitty 98 was.
What I want to know is will this wonderful new directx have a much better API? Directx9 is MUCH better then Directx8, but it is still far more difficult then it needs to be, espeically compared to OpenGL, not that even OpenGL with all the extensions is as clear and straitforward as it could be.
NatCox
05-02-2005, 09:43 AM
Microsoft always promises the world and delivers a trailer park in Aurora, Ill.
No, you're thinking of Peter Molyneux.
No, he only delivers an outhouse in Aurora, Ill.
OT:
Don't be Hatin' on the 60504! Represent!
-Nat Cox, non-trailer park internal plumbing resident of Aurora, IL
Midnight Son
05-02-2005, 01:50 PM
Don't be Hatin' on the 60504! Represent!
-Nat Cox, non-trailer park internal plumbing resident of Aurora, IL
I'm sorry, I don't speak "ghetto." Might as well be swahili..... :wink:
Skinner
05-02-2005, 03:25 PM
Turns out my next step will be (as I think Igor mentioned above) an all-Linux desktop. The only thing I do now that requires Windows is gaming and the Cedega project (http://www.transgaming.com/) is now much better at running Windows games in Linux than even a couple years ago (including all three Thief games), plus many of the games that I play have Linux support nowadays. I'm not going to buy a whole new Microsoft OS again because it has better fucking driver crash protection and a desktop GDI more closely integrated with Direct-X.
The only thing I use windows for is games as well. As soon as I can find a way to dump MS windows I'm on it. I tried linux once before and liked it well enough but could play many games at all. I had a dual boot and spent most of my time on windows anyway.
Now that shift6 has informed me of Cedega I'm might give linux a whirl again.
Thanks for the tip. Man, do I hate windows.
Edit - that list of games for Cedega is mighty impressive.
Jason Cross
05-02-2005, 05:39 PM
Edit - that list of games for Cedega is mighty impressive.
Dave Salvator over here has tried a whole lot of the games on that Cedega list, and couldn't get many of them to work. It's a crapshoot. yay!
Skinner
05-02-2005, 05:42 PM
That figures. I was way too optimistic there for a minute. :(
Whidbey is love. It's going to drive the platform for a long time.
Rob_Merritt
05-02-2005, 07:22 PM
I'm going to take it on faith that Microsoft is doing everything possible to prevent a winex of next gen games on linux.
shift6
05-02-2005, 07:24 PM
Many of them are in a "working on" mode, as in they aren't 100%. Generally speaking they get listed on Cedega if someone somewhere got it working, but it isn't a crapshoot because their "compatibility" is listed with the games themselves.
Anyways, the point is that the list of games that work well is growing very quickly. Worst case scenario? You dual boot every so often. Well since running Linux costs $0.00 (0.0 Euros) I guess that doesn't suck too bad.
dannimal
05-02-2005, 07:35 PM
Given that Longhorn is a late 2006 (at best) release, does it really come as a shock that it's aimed at 64-bit processors (dual core or otherwise)?
I bought my current machine last fall, which will make it 2 years old by the time Longhorn arrives. Aside from the processor, it has both the memory and graphics ability suggested in the first post (1GB/256MB). There's more or less no reason to think that those both won't be standard in 18 months (256 MB graphics cards can be had for under $100, and new Dells can be bought with 512 MB for $400).
So if anything, it's the CPU that might be a "shock", and even then I doubt it.
It's not like WinXP didn't come out and implore you to get the best new thing to run it on, and yet it runs acceptably well (for office use) on a P3/1GHz/256MB RAM). Not acceptably well for ME, but the staff I support don't seem to think it's unbearbly slow.
Kunikos
05-03-2005, 12:17 PM
~$180 of your money.
No, that would be what it takes AWAY from your table.
As for the performance requirements-- I don't like to run Windows XP Professional with my favorite apps and tools with any less than 512MB, and 1GB being the cushy spot (more would be better though). I'm guessing Longhorn will be OK with 1GB and better with more, probably 1.5GB-2.0GB would be best.
I am a little concerned about all the people who have shitty integrated 3D graphics chipsets who are going to get the shaft when they try and run the new Longhorn graphics system on their PC. It does exactly the same thing as Apple's Quartz system, in that everything is rendered through the 3D card. This allows them to accelerate complex compositing effects, vector graphics, etc. So anyone with an Intel or S3 integrated chipset may find that windows in Longhorn are going to be redrawing very slowly, or they won't be able to use it at all (perhaps no Longhorn Aero drivers can be made for them).
Kunikos
05-03-2005, 12:18 PM
By the way, can we get this moved to the Hardware forum?
Midnight Son
05-03-2005, 04:02 PM
No. These things just don't happen heah.
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