What am I missing in Guild Wars?

[Agent X20]

After burning out on WoW I thought I'd give GW a try in the hope that it might provide some good action amongst a few mates. I'd looked at a few video clips and was sorta underwhelmed - it looked like particle system overdose territory - but then there was all this hype and buzz about the launch so I thought why not.

Thing is after a couple of sessions I can barely bring myself to play it again. I've a level 7 Mesmer/Monk and this GW thing seems shallow and ultimately hollow. I appreciate I've not done the grouping thing and I'm still in the initial area but it feels so empty I'm wondering what am I missing here?

(My personal gameplay inclination is towards coop gaming rather than hours of PvP bashing).

Here are some of my initial observations:
- there's no oomph to the sound. Combat sounds like a few weak thumping noises with generic sparkly noises. There's no character to the monsters when they attack - no roars, no hisses nothing.
- combat feels very very repetitive. Click this card click that card. WoW might not have the deepest combat system but at least there was much more maneuvering and so forth. Because the sound is lacking combat feels rather uninvolving.
- Towns seem full of people just standing around bored dancing. Very little chatter or interaction apparent either. Maybe it's early days and maybe them that are grouping are simply doing their own thing.
- The world seems empty... looks nice but I've not yet had one of those "Woooo - look at THAT" moments I had in WoW when I came across a stunning new vista.
- The characters don't seem attached to the ground. They have this odd floaty motion and just don't seem bolted down with any gravity.

I think I know why I find it ultimately so empty... there I am standing around with 30 people and it's silent. Dead quiet. Deafeningly so. It's because there's no speech. No laughter, no greetings from vendors - nothing. It's all eeriely(sp?) silent. Maybe multi lingual speech was too hard/costly/time-consuming?

So for me the combat, the animation, the sense of a living world, the sound - are all lacking, for lack of a better word, impact. I don't know if this is because there's a strong asian input to the game (looks like it as an outside observer) and they have different sensibilities or what?

Or maybe I'm missing something... Anyway i'd be interested to hear what others think.

PS Why is the intro screen sound the same as Kohan 2? ;)

[extarbags]

I appreciate I've not done the grouping thing and I'm still in the initial area

----

there I am standing around with 30 people and it's silent.

Just stick with it.

[Shadari]

Agent X20, I agree with just about everything you said. The game just hasn't really grabbed me yet either. However, and I know this is going to sound kinda silly or maybe even pretentious, my gaming instincts tell me there's a good game here. The skill system in this game looks like it has a boatload of depth. And knowing that you can skip the the whole grind business and PvP whenever you want is pretty appealing. Of course, that's provided that the PvP is good.

[Agent X20]

Just stick with it.

Could you elaborate on that a little?

I've also had this nagging feeling I've played this game before. Only I think it was called Dungeon Siege and it didn't have endless loading screens. What it did have were the death shrines, monsters standing around looking totally bored until you got within range and an over-dependence on text boxes for exposition. :)

[extarbags]

Just stick with it.

Could you elaborate on that a little?


You're still in the beginning of the game, and you're soloing the whole time. Try out PvP. Try out the group missions. That's where the meat of the game is. I like the solo areas myself, but if you're looking for an enthralling single player RPG, you might want to look elsewhere... it doesn't require an internet connection just for trading, you know.

[worm]

What kind of various crap is there in it? I mean houses, mounts, designing, or custom armor? I'm kind of jazzed hearing that there is no monthly fee, though I get bored of all of these games unless there is something to do.

[RedTide]

What kind of various crap is there in it? I mean houses, mounts, designing, or custom armor? I'm kind of jazzed hearing that there is no monthly fee, though I get bored of all of these games unless there is something to do.
Customized armor yes, but nothing like horses or mounts that I can say, unless you count the guild hall.

[HRose]

Of course, that's provided that the PvP is good.
The PvP is, indeed, really good. If it wasn't for the bad "feel" of the controls it would be head and shoulders above the mechanics in WoW.

It's definitely fun, with a very good pace and flow and I believe also really well balanced and planned. The small critique I made yesterday is about the "res" spells that seem to make directly the difference between a win and a loss. I wouldn't suggest to remove them because they prolog the match and offer second chances, which are nice, but if they really have a strong impact they should become a side-skill always enabled and usable.

But it's not a mmorpg nor it should be compared with one.

For the rest I stick with my summarized comment:
"Guild Wars is a game modeled after a mmorpg but putting aside all the ideals on which a mmorpg is founded. It's built to be functional but not to simulate or recreate anything. It's a game developed as a game. In and out the player's perception."

I know that if I have some time for the quick fun, Guild Wars will deliver it. The game itself knows and doesn't want to be your only and first interest. You won't find a game on which dedicate your life.

The fact that it doesn't have a monthly fee directly means that the game doesn't need nor doesn't try to keep you playing forever, without moving your eyes away from the screen. It just expect you to come back as there is some more stuff to show and experience and I'm sure it has all the premises to achieve this goal.

Right now it's the icon on my desktop I press more gladly if I feel like playing something.

[Agent X20]

it doesn't require an internet connection just for trading, you know.

I appreciate that - and that's why I posted - I'm keen to hear about other people's experiences with it.

Ultimately my intention was to check the game out and if it was compelling I'd get a few mates to go spend their money and join me. But at the moment I'm far from convinced they should spend their cash on it.

[HRose]

Ultimately my intention was to check the game out and if it was compelling I'd get a few mates to go spend their money and join me. But at the moment I'm far from convinced they should spend their cash on it.

So go speak with that guy standing in front of the gate in the newb city and tell him to make you leave the place. Then jump on the PvP arena, play an hour and you'll know if the game is for you or not.

[Shadari]

Ultimately my intention was to check the game out and if it was compelling I'd get a few mates to go spend their money and join me. But at the moment I'm far from convinced they should spend their cash on it.

So go speak with that guy standing in front of the gate in the newb city and tell him to make you leave the place. Then jump on the PvP arena, play an hour and you'll know if the game is for you or not.
I think that's what I'm gonna have to do pretty soon.

On another note, it really bugs me that they spent all those resources on making the engine look good but not feel really good. Not that it feels terrible, it's just not up there with the best of these types of games.

[JPR]

Here's your problem:

I'm still in the initial area

Get the fuck out of the initial area. Everybody from Qt3 that's been playing says that the initial area feels like an empty, boring, shitty version of World of Warcraft. Once you get out of there and into the actual game (instead of the tutorial), things improve immensely. More interesting and varied visuals, actual missions, team play, etc. Do youself a favor: go talk to Tydus, post your in-game name so we can invite you to the Guild, and play through some of the actual game. There are plenty of people from here still running the initial mission, so there would be people to group with.

[Shadari]

As a bit of an aside, over the years, there have been lots and lots of great games that didn't make a good first impression for me.

Perhaps the most notable single-player one is Planescape: Torment. Man, I really hated the first few hours of that game where you were just running around the Hive doing silly quests. The morgue was pretty boring too. But man that game kicked it into high gear after a while.

As for multiplayer games, Ultima Online is definitely the best example of a game that I really didn't like at first but that eventually grew to be an all-time favorite.

[forgeforsaken]

There are some really good coop missions once you get out of the intro area. One of the problems with the game is that they dont make it clear it's sort of a training area, and also that you can spend so much time in it.

The missions can be pretty good. Some are heavily story based, and are more than kill all in the area. You have escort missions, survival missions, recovery missions, etc. It definately is a lot cooler if you are in a good group.

I've also had a few of those 'damn that looks cool' moments.

[TomChick]

Yeah, no kidding about getting out of that starter area. It's a really weak opening that doesn't have enough of the game's appeal folded into it. So if you're just starting out, make sure you do all those Tydius quests -- the stuff labeled Primary Quest -- until you get to the artwork shift. You'll know it when you see it.

Until you've gotten past that point, you're not really playing Guild Wars. If you still hate it after that, cool. But don't write it off until then.

-Tom

[Agent X20]

Thanks for the feedback folks - I'll stick with it a little longer and see what opens up. Will definitely get out of the learner's area asap!

[Peter Frazier]

Check out 'Mount & Blade' in between Guild Wars session if you want combat that looks and feels like combat....

[EvilIdler]

When I neared the end of the introductory area, I went into the Academy
to do a final mission "to see if I was worthy". Pfeh, 'course I am! I am
Hedyn Brand!

Anyway, I was put into a group with two NPCs (a fighter and a really good
healer), plus another player (an elementalist who didn't speak - I almost
suspected it was an NPC at times :P ).

We were pitted against..feck knows what. They were two other players
in a similar group to ours. We beat them. We beat them good.
It was hectic and fun, and I loved my choice of necro-mesmer even more.

When you get out of the training area, two years pass, and the city is in
ruins. Plus you'll meet more people :)

[wildpokerman]

I may be crazy but I'm kind of liking the beginner's area, killing those things along the river feels like killing murlocks in WAR III except there aren't 100 other players trying to kill them as they respawn.

Question for you veterans, what items should I be keeping and what should I be unloading on the vendors? How do I upgrade weapons and armor and stuff?

Sounds like from this thread I should go back to planescape torment too, I never played past the morgue.

[marxeil]

I may be crazy but I'm kind of liking the beginner's area, killing those things along the river feels like killing murlocks in WAR III except there aren't 100 other players trying to kill them as they respawn.

Question for you veterans, what items should I be keeping and what should I be unloading on the vendors? How do I upgrade weapons and armor and stuff?

Sounds like from this thread I should go back to planescape torment too, I never played past the morgue.
You better. This is a game I wish I didn't play, just so I can play it again without remembering anything.

As for Guild Wars - The beta had a small client that downloaded the game to you. Are they selling the game this way as well?
For some reason it's not sold here.

[GuildBoss]

I may be crazy but I'm kind of liking the beginner's area, killing those things along the river feels like killing murlocks in WAR III except there aren't 100 other players trying to kill them as they respawn.

Question for you veterans, what items should I be keeping and what should I be unloading on the vendors? How do I upgrade weapons and armor and stuff?

Sounds like from this thread I should go back to planescape torment too, I never played past the morgue.
You better. This is a game I wish I didn't play, just so I can play it again without remembering anything.

As for Guild Wars - The beta had a small client that downloaded the game to you. Are they selling the game this way as well?
For some reason it's not sold here.

You can buy and download here (http://www.plaync.com/store/gw_purchase.html).

[mouselock]

Just stick with it.

Could you elaborate on that a little?


You're still in the beginning of the game, and you're soloing the whole time. Try out PvP. Try out the group missions. That's where the meat of the game is.

Pre-WoW I was psyched for this game. Once I burned out on WoW, I found that I'd burned out on this too. There is zero single player game; single player is an exercise in tedium designed to level you up. The group game is only slightly better, in that you get to be bored with more friends. From everything I can tell, the entire raison d'etre for the game is the PvP. Which, of course, is something I'm completely un-interested in.

I'm not saying it's a bad game. I am saying that from the playing I did all throughout the beta (including the very last beta event), I don't think there's much in the way of "new" here unless it exists in the PvP. So if you're not into PvP and have already bored of the other MMOs out there, there's not a whole lot that's unique about GW aside from the PvP and the fact that you don't have to pay monthly fees to be bored. Which isn't a bad business model at all, just way too late for folks burned out on the MMO combat model to begin with.

[JM]

Is that the game's fault?

[DennyA]

This is the "no monthly fee" game, right?

So isn't comparing it to WoW, etc. a bit apples and oranges?

Are they doing anything interesting to keep the cash flowing in after the sales start to taper off?

[Union Carbide]

Are they doing anything interesting to keep the cash flowing in after the sales start to taper off?

Expansion pack-o-rama. Interestingly, you'll be able to play in the expansion areas if you haven't bought them, but you'll have to be invited by someone that has them. You won't be able to enter them on your own.

[mouselock]

Is that the game's fault?

Let's see. Game's designed in a way I think is uninspiring. Is that the game's fault? I'm going to go with yes! :)

Seriously, they seem to have copied a lot of MMO mechanics over in design philosophy. I get where this makes the PvP easier, and that may be their primary goal, so in that case it makes good sense. But damn, I sure as hell wouldn't set out to ape MMO-type game design decisions unless I was going to enact the MMO type carrot-stick model to entice people to get over those mechanics. I've yet to see an MMO where the game mechanics themselves were compelling of themselves.

[JM]

But it seems like you're bored with what you've termed "MMO Combat". Given that combat in WoW and combat in GW seem to be remarkably different, and that GW's combat is far more like, say, NWN, or (as someone else mentioned), a real-time Magic: TG game, surely aren't you just saying you're bored of a whole genre that doesn't just include MMORPGs?

Calling GW uninspired is strange. There's a lot to like, there's plenty of scope for customisation and variety, and combat requires some thought. The missions - especially the co-op ones - are generally pretty good, and often cinematic in style, much like a fantasy version of Call of Duty or something.

Really, what is it you'd actually like to see?

[mouselock]

But it seems like you're bored with what you've termed "MMO Combat". Given that combat in WoW and combat in GW seem to be remarkably different, and that GW's combat is far more like, say, NWN, or (as someone else mentioned), a real-time Magic: TG game, surely aren't you just saying you're bored of a whole genre that doesn't just include MMORPGs?

Well, in terms of comparitive genres, I don't think there's anything that GW is closer to than the MMO games. I don't consider it to be remarkably different, how do you figure that? I have an arrangement of 8 skills, which have some type of cost, and have a recharge time. How is this remarkably different than WoW's combat? In the larger selection of skills?


Calling GW uninspired is strange. There's a lot to like, there's plenty of scope for customisation and variety, and combat requires some thought. The missions - especially the co-op ones - are generally pretty good, and often cinematic in style, much like a fantasy version of Call of Duty or something.

Well, to me it just seems like a conglomeration of things I've seen and done before. Team based missions? Say what you will about the genre, but the MMOs have had that nailed for a while. Tepid solo play? WoW feels very similar. I can't speak to the PvP, which may well be stellar. However, I'm also not interested in it, and I was hoping for the rest of the game to be differentiated more than it is.


Really, what is it you'd actually like to see?

Maybe the impossible. I was hoping for something which had the depth and interest of Diablo alone, and then tacked onto that a reasonable multi-player and PvP experience.

Again, I'm not trying to say the game is bad. I think that would be a tough statement to support. I'm just saying that it feels far more like the annoying realm of "Really, it'll be fun after you level up for 15 levels and have a good group of friends and give in to the dark side and go PvP!" that tends to characterize pay-for MMOs. I was hoping for a game that started off with solid, fun, single player interactions and built onto that. I know it's possible in other genres (FPS), so I'm stymied as to why it seems so hard to do in the action RPG genre.

Edit: To try to be more succinct about what I'm growing to dislike about the "MMO-type" gameplay, it's the following-

I'm forced to sit through realtime combat where the decisions I make don't matter. As long as I'm not stupid, I know going into the combat that I will win it barring any extraordinary circumstances. However, I'm forced to go through the same repetitive motions in order to do it, rather than simply letting the statistics play out as in a normal CRPG, or having there be some modification to my ability based on attentiveness/twitch skills a la Diablo.

This seems to me to be very true for the single player and multi-player vs. AI portion of GW, just like every other MMO. Which leaves the interest/reactivity as a "PvP only" thing.

[JM]

I dont want to seem like I'm ragging on you for not liking Guild Wars, it's just that I don't agree with certain conclusions you're coming to.

Firstly, the combat. WoW has a bunch of spells/skills that get upgraded as you level up. That is much much different to they way GW deals with them, which is you have a huge number to choose from, and only 8 slots available. Not only that, but you have the points you can put into each area to further specialise what you're doing. Mana is replaced by energy, which reduces the frustration in most of these games because there's almost no downtime. As far as online combat systems go, it's one of the best I've used. It's fair, it's balanced, it requires thought, and it can be customised to suit how you wish to play.

Secondly, I dont know what you mean by "single player game". GW is online-only. Where are you getting the single-player portion from?

Thirdly, the team based missions are more like mini-WoW instances, than just the usual "group" missions found in most MMOs. The fact that all missions are instanced makes it stand out, and it's given the devs the chance to really go to town on cinematic sequences, which are pretty damn fun imo.

From your statement it looks like you wanted a single-player game. It isn't, and it won't ever be. I guess we can sum it up with "this game isn't for you", but I think it's just a little harsh to tar GW with the same brush as the other MMORPGs, given the differences.

[mouselock]

Eh.. we'll just have to disagree I guess. You find the myriad skills to select from as significant; I just think it means it takes you a few moments longer to settle upon the whup-ass selection and get combat back to the utter boredom and tedium of clicking the right buttons in the right order. Having to make selections about which skills to carry along isn't exactly new in the MMO world, it's just less permanent in GW (which is an advance, admittedly). On top of that you point out that missions are like mini WoW instances; again, I get the appeal of the whole team-based conquer the dungeon thing, but I've just done it enough elsewhere that it's no longer compelling, whether I'm doing it alone with my team or amongst other people (both models exist in MMOs I've played).

My main complaint is still the amount of time spent artificially "levelling" despite the fact that the levelling process isn't particularly interesting or fun. Even with your examples, the part that would be fun to me is figuring out which classes/skills to load up. You're still left with a whole boatload of annoying button clicking deploying those skills that, frankly, could just as easily be reduced to a stat-based, turn-based system to me. At least then it'd go quicker and I wouldn't feel compelled to sit there and think that auto-bowing a monster while I wait for my troll unguent to refresh was a game. However, you obviously couldn't do the PvP stuff with turn based combat. So the rest of the game suffers for the PvP, or, conversely, the rest of the game is just a ramp-up so you can be ready to PvP.

[JPR]

I don't want to get tremendously involved in this discussion, mostly because I don't have any non-GW MMO experience. I just want to quickly comment on this:

... think that auto-bowing a monster while I wait for my troll unguent to refresh was a game.

I don't think I'm going to change your mind, or anything, but I find this to be pretty true of the melee classes, also, and I really like the game. What keeps the PvE combat interesting for me is using a Mesmer/Necro character that concentrates on interrupts and curses/hexes. It forces you to play a lot more dynamically, as you don't have any skills that do direct damage. I haven't acquired all the skills I want to be using yet, but this build requires you to be very exact in your timing (3/4 - 2 second window for spell interrupts) and to pay careful attention to what's going on around you so that you are debuffing/hexing appropriately.

Anyway.

I can understand why you think playing a straight Ranger or a straight Warrior is boring, but the Necro and Mesmer classes (and monk) make for a much less straight forward combat experience.

[Creole Ned]

I would think the name of the game would kind of suggest a PvP emphasis but maybe I'm wrong.

[Graeme Dice]

I just think it means it takes you a few moments longer to settle upon the whup-ass selection and get combat back to the utter boredom and tedium of clicking the right buttons in the right order.

All RPG combat, of any nature, fundamentally comes down to exactly this. Making it turn-based certainly doesn't change that.

[EvilIdler]

The game is all about PvP. Guild versus guild. See the title of the box :)

Combat is *fast*. You need to think quick to counter the powers of other
classes sometimes, too. There are certain skill combinations which make
you have to do more than simply unload all your damage on someone,
because they simply negate your damage. Quick healers are a bitch if
you don't have mesmer powers to make them take damage upon
cast, or unable to get full effect or similar.

I expect to have to rotate the different spells/skills on my characters
to try out defensive or offensive combos.

[HRose]

My main complaint is still the amount of time spent artificially "levelling" despite the fact that the levelling process isn't particularly interesting or fun. Even with your examples, the part that would be fun to me is figuring out which classes/skills to load up. You're still left with a whole boatload of annoying button clicking deploying those skills that, frankly, could just as easily be reduced to a stat-based, turn-based system to me.
You are so completely wrong.

To begin with the "levelling" can be directly bypassed by building a level 20 character and playing just in PvP. The PvE is also of a very good quality, offering different situations and way more creative, fun to play and interesting to follow than the average mmorpg offering.

Secondly we are still in front of a screen, reacting at visual feedback by pressing buttons. What else you expect from a game if not pressing keys?

This directly demonstrates that it's not a same if you turn it into a stat-based, turn-based system. That's what makes this game stand out: the way you interact.

Guild Wars is wonderful in what it wants to offer. It's planned smartly, knowing exactly how to achieve the goals it wants to reach. We can argue about whether the game offers something interesting or not (and the lasting appeal), but the execution is great.

Best PvP ever.

[mouselock]

I just think it means it takes you a few moments longer to settle upon the whup-ass selection and get combat back to the utter boredom and tedium of clicking the right buttons in the right order.

All RPG combat, of any nature, fundamentally comes down to exactly this. Making it turn-based certainly doesn't change that.

Depends on how action-y the RPG combat is. I don't think Diablo distills down quite as easily, for example. (Of course, people would claim it's not an RPG, which I can see.)

My main complaint though is making me sit through the meaningless tedium of watching the inevitable happen. It's necessary because it has to happen in realtime to accomodate the PvP portion. But it still bores me to sit there and think "Okay, I'll keep autoattacking until I hit this point, then I'll use this skill; I'll use this skill every time it regenerates, and in between as long as I have mana > x, I'll cast this every time it regenerates." Having 8 skills at a time doesn't help that, any. Turn based they could at least lump it all together and make it go as fast as I could click "Next turn."

I think it's a particular interaction between having to have the game (or any pseudo-action RPG type game that has to deal with the possibility of lag) happen "real time". You're forced to turn what is essentially a random deterministic system into an action based one, and the translation doesn't go well. Pure action would be fine. Pure turn based can be accelerated. The in-between stuff is painful.

And yeah, I'm being "unfair" because this all disappears when you go to PvP and you effectively face infinite variation in opponent AI. However, when it first started up the impression I got wasn't "This is a 100% PvP game, and the rest exists just to get you up to snuff in PvP." Either they changed tacks in the intervening year, or I got the wrong impression, but regardless I've still been rather disappointed at how it came out. Again, it doesn't make it a bad game, but it's not the successor to Diablo + Co-Op and PvP I was hoping for. Maybe that's not fair to hope for. :)

[HRose]

Are you complaining about the game being too slow?

Because that's definitely not GW.

[Brooski]

"I'll keep autoattacking until I hit this point, then I'll use this skill; I'll use this skill every time it regenerates, and in between as long as I have mana > x, I'll cast this every time it regenerates." Having 8 skills at a time doesn't help that, any. Turn based they could at least lump it all together and make it go as fast as I could click "Next turn."
I'm not sure I understand the objection, here. How would forcing you to make the same decisions, only additionally forcing you to hit an extra button to make them take effect, be better?

[mouselock]

Are you complaining about the game being too slow?

Because that's definitely not GW.

:roll:

Is this the patented HRose discussion technique, wherein you just assert something until it magically becomes true? If you'd like to provide examples of how the non-PvP section of the game might be more entertaining than I've taken it to be, I'd be happy to listen.

If you'd just like to tell me how I'm wrong in my perceptions, however, this should be the last response to one of your posts you need to endure.

I'm willing, if not desperate, to be convinced my opinion is ill-formed. Discussing how it's ill-formed, or how I got the wrong impression, is useful. Telling me simply that it is, or that I have, is useless.

[Brooski]

I'm not trying to be a jerk, although I may just be slow, so I need to ask: when you say the PvE game is too slow, do you mean the newbie area PvE game? Because yeah, I agree. If you mean the post-newbie PvE game, I have found plenty of times when I was desperately waiting for multiple skills to regen, all the while trying to figure out which one I'd use, and whether to (a) heal our healer; (b) throw a shield spell on the healer and attack the monster that was attacking her; (c) throw a shield spell on Tom Chick, who could really use the help. You say in one post up above that you always know you're going to win a combat barring extraordinary circumstances. I've found plenty of instances where our group was getting wiped multiple times, to the point that my death penalty was something like 65%. Nothing guaranteed about that. Just trying to select party members and then spells and then monsters and then different spells has kept me clicking like crazy.

[mouselock]

I'm not trying to be a jerk, although I may just be slow, so I need to ask: when you say the PvE game is too slow, do you mean the newbie area PvE game? Because yeah, I agree.

My most recent experiences were newbie-ville, yeah. The thing someone else posted earlier makes me wonder about that too.

I had the same experience way back last year with the E3 client at level 15 in the char areas too, which is again not particularly viable as an experience considering it was a year ago.

Have there been any circumstances like what you're talking about playing in one of the single-player adventure areas? At the final beta weekend thing I very much got the feeling it was a binary thing: Either it was a foregone conclusion that I'd kill the monster, or it was a foregone conclusion that I'd die. And it's pretty important to me to be able to play alone a reasonable amount (50%?) of the time.

It may just be that GW isn't designed that way. :/

What I need is a 10 day friend pass! Don't suppose they included those with their collector's editions? :P

[TomChick]

Have there been any circumstances like what you're talking about playing in one of the single-player adventure areas?

As someone mentioned, there's no such thing as a single player area. All the places outside town are spawned instances that support up to four characters of any mix of human or AI controlled.

And if you haven't played Guild Wars outside the newbie area, then you haven't played Guild Wars. Finish up your primary quest missions as soon as you can and you'll be to the game proper within an hour or so.

-Tom

[Case]

As someone mentioned, there's no such thing as a single player area. All the places outside town are spawned instances that support up to four characters of any mix of human or AI controlled.

-Tom

The manual says 8 people in a party. Someone else told me five to a party, once you get outside the newb area. So how many people are really allowed in a party in an instanced area?

[Ibbz]

Have there been any circumstances like what you're talking about playing in one of the single-player adventure areas? At the final beta weekend thing I very much got the feeling it was a binary thing: Either it was a foregone conclusion that I'd kill the monster, or it was a foregone conclusion that I'd die. And it's pretty important to me to be able to play alone a reasonable amount (50%?) of the time.

You really really need to get out of the tutorial areas and past the char. Once you get into missions with 6 people and large fights that can last for quite a long time, you'll see its not binary :)

Personally I've found the combat far more different than WoW. I can't stand looking at a murloc or generic creature X in WoW without going 'Ugh, not again', but with Guild wars, I don't have that problem. Coincidentally, I believe, the further you get into the missions, the more enjoyment you'll have - Destroying Balista's and breaching the castle walls last night with roberdjp is the probably the most enjoyment i've had so far :)

[JPR]

The manual says 8 people in a party. Someone else told me five to a party, once you get outside the newb area. So how many people are really allowed in a party in an instanced area?

Depends on the area. From Ascalon City to Yak's Bend (the first.... 5 missions, I think?) it's 4. From Yak's Bend to Lion's Arch (another 3-5 missions) it's 6. After Lion's Arch, it's 8.

Also, as you move from further along the plot, the options for AI henchman increase. At first it's just Fighter, Healer, Mage, Archer. Later on, you can add necromancer henchmen and enchanter/buff henchmen, etc.

The whole philosophy of advancement in this game is about increasing *options*, not increasing power. The amount of flexibility you have in your build as well as your party as a whole increases exponentially once you get up to level 10+ and into 6 man teams.

Another thing that hasn't been mentioned here, I don't think, is refund points. In addition to earning attribute points that you can distribute, you also earn refund points. It lets you change your attribute focus as you go along if you want to. If you're an elementalist who started out focusing on Fire spells, but then you realized once you hit level 12 that you really prefer Water magic, you can remove the points you've allocated to fire and re-allocate them to water. It means that it's not a problem to get stuck in a build you don't like. If you decide that your necromancer minions aren't packing the punch in the late game that they did earlier on, you can re-focus yourself to blood magic or curses instead (which fundamentally changes your strategies and tactics).

It's all about options.

edit: spelling

[Brooski]

Have there been any circumstances like what you're talking about playing in one of the single-player adventure areas? At the final beta weekend thing I very much got the feeling it was a binary thing: Either it was a foregone conclusion that I'd kill the monster, or it was a foregone conclusion that I'd die. And it's pretty important to me to be able to play alone a reasonable amount (50%?) of the time.
(One of the) cool things about Guild Wars (alluded to by various people above) is that you can "hire" henchmen NPCs (for free) to round out your group. And that's crucial because, like Tom mentioned, and someone else mentioned before him I guess, there isn't any such thing as "single-player" adventuring. If you want to have any chance of succeeding at a mission, you need a group. But that group can be you and three (or more, later, I suppose) NPCs.

If you're judging combat in GW based on that solo newbie land, don't bother because it totally changes. I wrote a long, annoyed email to some people with Guild Wars impressions that turned out to be mostly wrong because, like Xemu in another thread here, I didn't realize that the newbie area was a newbie area. I'm kind of surprised that the game starts out in a way so unsuited to the design of the combat system. This combat system is made for groups. If you're just playing alone, it's pointless.

I had the same experience way back last year with the E3 client at level 15 in the char areas too, which is again not particularly viable as an experience considering it was a year ago.
The thing that makes this unrepresentative of the game, more so than the time, is that you played it solo (I assume). The combat system isn't dependent on level - it's completely dependent on having a mixed group with the right (complementary) skills.

So yeah - if you're disappointed in the game because of your experience in newbie Ascalon, take that Sir Tydus quest which says you'll be gone for a long time. The game starts after that.

But you'll never, ever be able to play solo with just your character and no support. That's not how the game is designed. You can, however, "solo" with NPCs for a while. I don't know how long this is viable but I assume it's possible until you hit the level cap, which is only 20. Then the whole pvp thing starts (I guess).

[JM]

I hated the beta I tried. Really didn't see the attraction. Funnily enough... I was a Ranger then too. Probably not the most fun class to begin with? I don't know.

Just to reiterate, though:


The whole philosophy of advancement in this game is about increase Options, not increasing power. The amount of flexibility you have in your build as well as your party as a whole increases exponentially once you get up to level 10+ and into 6 man teams.

This is a massively important point. While levelling does mean you can increase a few areas, the gaining of skills is not a "powering up" but an increase in flexibility and choice. This is why I love it so much :)

Again, if only they'd made it more clear about the first part being the newbie area - I only worked it out during forum-hopping.

[HRose]

Someone knows the raw number of missions, pvp arenas etc.. in the game?

[mouselock]

The thing that makes this unrepresentative of the game, more so than the time, is that you played it solo (I assume). The combat system isn't dependent on level - it's completely dependent on having a mixed group with the right (complementary) skills.

So yeah - if you're disappointed in the game because of your experience in newbie Ascalon, take that Sir Tydus quest which says you'll be gone for a long time. The game starts after that.

But you'll never, ever be able to play solo with just your character and no support. That's not how the game is designed. You can, however, "solo" with NPCs for a while. I don't know how long this is viable but I assume it's possible until you hit the level cap, which is only 20. Then the whole pvp thing starts (I guess).

Alright then, I did try one of the instanced missions at an intermediate time with the AI bots and it wasn't too bad. My impression was that they were a bit too good (the monk bot was such a good healer that I didn't have to worry about much of anything, for example), but I'm sure that's tweakable. So does anyone have any impressions of how well this works throughout the game?

My main complaint against the group only stuff is I want a game I can play by myself and have fun. MMOs such as WoW tend to get very repetitive very quickly. Soloing (true soloing) in GW felt the same. If I do the solo/AI Group thing does that go away, or do those characters tend to be braindead/focused enough that you can only effectively attack the missions one way?

(If it's not apparent, I'm trying to cobble together a buy/no-buy opinion from beta opinions previously and information gleaned from trusted sources - i.e. you folk.)

[TomChick]

Mouselock, GW should be perfect for what you're looking for. As rogerdjp mentioned, the choice of characters widens as you go along. Their level increases based on the city hub, which determines the difficulty level of the missions you'll take.

The penalty is that you have to share gold and experience with them. But if you just need help getting to a city, or if you just want to quickly finish a quest to get the reward and aren't worried about diluted experience, the AI guys are great.

And their AIs use them according to their role. When I was playing with Bruce yesterday, our AI healer saved our asses -- not to mention our resurrection signets -- on more than one occasion.

GW is a group based game, but if you don't want to, I suspect you could play the entire game without ever having to interact with another player.

-Tom

[forgeforsaken]

In regards to combat outcomes, I've been in several fights now where the group survives by the skin of its teeth. These of course are also the coolest fights.

[mouselock]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I'm currently subscribed to two MMOs which I'm bored with, so I think I may pick this up after all after I get back into town at the end of this week or maybe next week. (Unless of course my trip doesn't yield me a job offer, in which case it's back to ramen noodles and playing Solitaire!)

I guess I just didn't get enough experience with the parts of the game I tried. (They all seemed solidly done, but I didn't have time to obsess over the beta weekends, so maybe I just scratched the surface.)

[Banzai]

The game appears to have been made with skill progression in mind. What I measn is that the newbie area only allows you to have one other person in a group, and the fights are extremely easy. Both the number of players in your group and the quality of your enemy's AI increase as you play through the missions.

After Yak's Bend, there will be 6 players in your group, and you'll be fighting 5+ creatures each time, making for much more varied gameplay. Sometimes those 6 critters all team up on one player, sometimes they split up. Sometimes they have casters using AE spells, sometimes they have casters removing your enchantments. I've had increasing party wipeouts (full parties of humans who have been playing MORPGs as a guild for years now) as the game has progressed, and oddly enough, the fights are much more fun and satisfying too. Wiping out isn't cool, but the fact that 6 good players could be wiped out if they don't play well is part of what keeps it fun.

Newbieville was created with ease of learning in mind, not complex gameplay. The detailed, barely surviving, skill-based gameplay is there, but you have to ramp up to it a bit - or else the folks who are truly new to the genre would be moaning about how hard the newbie area is ;)

[Mister Widget]

I agree with Banzai -- the fights get MUCH more interesting as you go along. The NPCs have access to the exact same abilities your characters do, and I'm definitely learning about all the different classes just by watching what the NPCs do to my party. The Warrior NPCs have a disturbing habit of making a beeline for my monk henchman. Alas, poor Alesia... she's taken one for the team more times than I can count. Fortunately, all the other henchman are able to cast Resurrection Signet on her :)

[Aszurom]

My GW questions at this point...

is there any sort of /follow command? If someone has to go take a leak and the party is moving, you're screwed.

Also, if I get split up from my group, I can't see them on the map and I can't seem to make a waypoint to them - so how am I supposed to find them again?

Lvl20 is the cap as I understand it. So, once I reach 20, what compels me to continue to play with that character? Am I still gaining skill or items or something - or are you pretty much at the end of your development when you hit 20 and you just play what you've got from then on?

If you blow the newbie zone off as soon as possible, how do you get the skills that you pick up by running around doing the trainer quests? I played one character up to lvl 8 in the newb zone, and the other one I just bolted to the "real game" asap and I'm there with nothing. Do you screw yourself by doing this?

How does the actual PVP game work? I saw what looks like Unreal Tournament with swords... CTF, king of the hill, arena, team deathmatch. Ok, whatever - but are there actually questing type missions where we're in opposition of another team trying to do the same quest or something? Or is the PVP arena based, small area confined stuff?

[extarbags]

My GW questions at this point...

is there any sort of /follow command? If someone has to go take a leak and the party is moving, you're screwed.

Just double-click on a friendly and you'll follow them.

Also, if I get split up from my group, I can't see them on the map and I can't seem to make a waypoint to them - so how am I supposed to find them again?

That I don't know... haven't run into it.

Lvl20 is the cap as I understand it. So, once I reach 20, what compels me to continue to play with that character? Am I still gaining skill or items or something - or are you pretty much at the end of your development when you hit 20 and you just play what you've got from then on?

You still get skill points, and (I gather) you'll hit 20 well before you finish all of the missions. There are ~75 skills per profession, IIRC... so that's ~150 that your character can use. So there will probably be a lot of skills you don't have by the time you hit 20.

[JPR]

is there any sort of /follow command? If someone has to go take a leak and the party is moving, you're screwed.

As extar said, you can double click the name or the character. YOu can also select them and hit space. If you ever catch up to them, though, you stop moving until you hit space again, so if they pause, you'll still get lost.


Also, if I get split up from my group, I can't see them on the map and I can't seem to make a waypoint to them - so how am I supposed to find them again?

They can ping the minimap by clicking on it and you can SORT of tell where they are. Other than that, if you get too far apart, you have to communicate with landmarks or something. YOu can also draw on the minimap, btw, in case you don't know that.


Lvl20 is the cap as I understand it. So, once I reach 20, what compels me to continue to play with that character? Am I still gaining skill or items or something - or are you pretty much at the end of your development when you hit 20 and you just play what you've got from then on?

What extarbags said. Also, though, once you reach level 20, there is something called "Ascension", which at first the devs implied was just another word for reaching the cap. I'm trying to avoid reading spoilers, so I still don't know that much about it, but there is some grand ascension quest involved. After that is completed, you have the ability to change your secondary profession. So, if you want to, you can replay the whole game with your level 20 character w/ a different second profession.


If you blow the newbie zone off as soon as possible, how do you get the skills that you pick up by running around doing the trainer quests? I played one character up to lvl 8 in the newb zone, and the other one I just bolted to the "real game" asap and I'm there with nothing. Do you screw yourself by doing this?

All the newbie skills are available through either skill traders or quests in the post-seared Ascalon area. You are missing out on a lot if you don't explore the explorable areas around Ascalon City (in post searing, I mean). In addition to it being pretty fucking cool to see the specific damage that the searing caused (many landmarks exist in a drastically altered form, and all the geography is the same), there are several outposts there. Each of these outposts have quests that net lots and lots of skills (like 20+, including the ones from pre-seared).

How does the actual PVP game work? I saw what looks like Unreal Tournament with swords... CTF, king of the hill, arena, team deathmatch. Ok, whatever - but are there actually questing type missions where we're in opposition of another team trying to do the same quest or something? Or is the PVP arena based, small area confined stuff?

It's all arena-based. There has been talk among the devs for a year about some more quest-based PvP missions ("escort the caravan" was one that has been discussed), but none of them have been implemented. Maybe that stuff will be free or maybe it will be part of the first expansion. Don't think, though, that the PvP is necessarily small scale. If you have only fought in the Level 10 and under arena in Ascalon City, you might have the wrong impression. The largest PvP fight available is 8x8x8x8x8x8x8x8 in a pretty large area, so it's not a confined, small-scale affair all the time.

[jafd]

mouselock:

Guild Wars isn't what you're looking for. Avoid it.

[Aszurom]

hrm... so at some point here the game transitions from playing "let's go dragon hunting" to "Capture the Flag" like I'm playing Unreal Tournament in Diablo engine? What? Ouch, my head hurts.

Well, I guess I'll have to see it before I form an opinion of it. Hrm.

One thing this game really DOES do for me that no other game has before is proven the feasability of making the outside world INSTANCED on a per-party basis. Really, I think that's the best MMORPG thing I've seen in a long while... monsters that STAY DEAD when you kill them. Praise internet Jesus.

[Xaroc]

hrm... so at some point here the game transitions from playing "let's go dragon hunting" to "Capture the Flag" like I'm playing Unreal Tournament in Diablo engine? What? Ouch, my head hurts.


It is actually pretty cool. You can PvP in a couple of different ways. Take your regular character and go to an arena and pop in for a quick 4 on 4 match. Do organized guild vs. guild PvP (once you get a guild hall?). Or create a level 20 dedicated PvP character.

Once you reach 20 there are still skill quests to do from what I gather but the main focus is PvP.


Well, I guess I'll have to see it before I form an opinion of it. Hrm.

One thing this game really DOES do for me that no other game has before is proven the feasability of making the outside world INSTANCED on a per-party basis. Really, I think that's the best MMORPG thing I've seen in a long while... monsters that STAY DEAD when you kill them. Praise internet Jesus.

This is nice but also not so nice at times. You can spend 40 minutes going through a quest to get to the end battle then realize you can't swing it with the henchmen. In WoW you could just ask for help in zone or guild chat. In this game you can say whatever you want, people can't join you once you are in instance so you end up wasting 40 minutes. Or like someone said the instance crashes near the end and you have to redo it. Whereas with a real MMO you just sign back in and pick up where you left off. So it has it's upsides but also downsides.

-- Xaroc

[dannimal]

*scratches head*

I skipped most of the hype/info about this game, mostly because I've been playing WoW, and didn't think I'd have the time/interest for another MMO.

Is it possible to play the game at all "demo style" now that it's been released without buying it?

How often do they plan to relase the new "chapters" that you can, but don't have to buy? What's the price point?

Do you need to play quasi-regularly to keep up with guild mates? If Joe Guildmember plays 10 hours/wk, and I play 3-4 hrs/wk, will I end up puny in comparison and unable to join him?

Normally, I'd just ignore this, but I got a gift certificate for Amazon that would more or less cover the cost of the game so if I could get a few months of play before a new chapter and not have to play a bunch to keep up, I might give it a shot.

[extarbags]

Is it possible to play the game at all "demo style" now that it's been released without buying it?

Don't think so.

How often do they plan to relase the new "chapters" that you can, but don't have to buy? What's the price point?

I think I heard four months and thirty dollars, but EFlannum should probably chime in on this one.

Do you need to play quasi-regularly to keep up with guild mates? If Joe Guildmember plays 10 hours/wk, and I play 3-4 hrs/wk, will I end up puny in comparison and unable to join him?

Nah. You can party with people of pretty much any level, although I guess if he was 20 and you were 3 it might be too much of a gap. Also, you can make a maxed-out character right from the character creation screen if you want, but you can only use him or her for PvP.

Normally, I'd just ignore this, but I got a gift certificate for Amazon that would more or less cover the cost of the game so if I could get a few months of play before a new chapter and not have to play a bunch to keep up, I might give it a shot.

One of the best things about this game is that you don't have to put in an insane amount of time, and you can even (shock!) take time off to play another game!

[Alan Dunkin]

I'm not sure if its been specifically announced what the expansion pack rate or cost will be. Maybe during E3? Honestly I dunno.

--- Alan

[Ibbz]

http://www.guildwars.com/news/gameupdates.html

Has the changes in each new version of the Guild Wars client.

[Xemu]

So in terms of PvP, the random arena stuff is a little on the incoherent side, when do you get to do more real PvP with an organized team? Do we have to save up for a Guildhall first?

[JPR]

Not quite. The guild hall will allow us to GvG with other guilds directly (either randomly according to our rank or with another guild of our choice). We can do organized teams in the Hall of Heroes, as well as at least 1 other arena, but the catch is that all the players have to get there first. Right now, I think that we have 3 or 4 players in Lion's Arch, and that is about 2/3 of the way to the Hall of Heroes, from what I understand. We would need 8 to get to Hall of Heroes to have a reasonable chance of winning. If we were to win, though, we would get our guild hall for free instead of for ~20,000 gold.

[Union Carbide]

If you create a lvl 20 PVP character there are 4 or so (can't check, I'm at work) PVP arenas to play in. The one you spawn in by default is the 4v4 random team deathmatch one, but there's a CTF, castle assault, larger team deathmatch, and maybe one or two other types. You just have to go to the map and zoom out to see the red pins in the map.

In "RP" mode, there's a 4v4 pickup arena in Old Ascalon, and there is also a PVP arena just north of. . . hell, I can't remember what it's called, but it's the first snow area town.

[Xemu]

Just got a 6-win streak in the Ascalon random teams 4v4. Lordy that was fun. Made about 1000 xp off of kills, too.

I cannot *wait* until we can do real guild PvP...

[Soldats]

roberdjp and I went on a nice little mission to complete the secondary objective for Nolani Academy. Basically, what you have to do is bring a "Tome of the Dead" back to its rightful resting place in the middle of a graveyard; the catch being that all the restless souls of warriors have awakened and are ready to kick your butt. So I told roberdjp the trick my previous group had figured out: don't carry the book, and the ghosts don't mob you. We go through carefully, clearing every single ghost with no problems, and come back to pick up the book... only to be massacred by a few damned Devourers. :lol:

There's your amusing GW tale-of-the-day. Now come join us, the rest of you!

[EFlannum]

For the person who had the expansion question earlier... we are planning them at 6-9 month intervals, not sure what the price point will be however. We'll also be streaming in new content for free, so expect to see new quests, areas, and game improvements constantly.

[JPR]

Don't think it's been posted yet, but Kasavin has well-nigh exclusively great things to say about Guild Wars over at Gamespot (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/guildwars/index.html).

I linked to the summary page for anyone who only cares to read the one sentence encapsulation. Frankly, it says all that needs to be said.

[extarbags]

Don't think it's been posted yet, but Kasavin has well-nigh exclusively great things to say about Guild Wars over at Gamespot (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/guildwars/index.html).

I linked to the summary page for anyone who only cares to read the one sentence encapsulation. Frankly, it says all that needs to be said.

It doesn't make him proud to be a gamer though, apparently :/.

[dannimal]

EFlannum, I'm pretty sure that was me who asked. Thanks for the answer, I was trying to gauge an "ongoing cost" comparison to other MMOs. So if a $40 expansion come sout every 6 months, it's akin to a $7/month fee (as an example).

Only because I was trying to figure out how much play I could get out of my initial purchase before having to decide to fork out more (and how much more).

[Tyjenks]

Let me pipe in here.

I am enjoying it. My last MMORPG experience was around 5 years ago with UO, so that needs to be factored in when weighing my opinion.

Getting started is a breeze. Moving around and logging on and off is so painless. It runs incredibly smoothly. Now, some might say it is too effortless and loses some of the atmosphere found in other MMO games, but it is not other MMO games. That perceived deficiency is of no concern to me as I am not looking for that type of experience.

The time factor plays a major role in what I am willing to spend my gaming hours with and, again, I have a much smaller frame of reference from being out of the loop. I can play GW for an hour and quit and feel as if I have accomplished something. I do not have to set aside a minimum of, say, two hours because of any running around or busy work that has to be done to get to quest locations or fighting.

NO MONTHLY FEE!!! EFlannum and anyone else listening. That was a, or more precisely, the primary factor in my decision to pick Guild Wars up. I do not feel like I have to play to reach a self-imposed monthly quota of hours to get my money's worth.

-Initiate GW zealot

[mouselock]

NO MONTHLY FEE!!! EFlannum and anyone else listening. That was a, or more precisely, the primary factor in my decision to pick Guild Wars up. I do not feel like I have to play to reach a self-imposed monthly quota of hours to get my money's worth.

-Initiate GW zealot

As someone who already has two ongoing monthly subscriptions that barely get used to other MMOs (one I keep because I ostensibly play with friends once a week, though I haven't been able to do that in months, the other because I really want to get back into the games offered, I just haven't had the time), I'd like to reiterate how important the above was. I can play the game now for my $40 purchase. If I'm really into it, I have to buy expansions, but if I'm just having fun once every 3 weeks or such, I'm done. I love that pricing model.

Oh, and the guys who said things about expanding options as you level are right. It's much better now that I'm trying it out again with less time constraints than the beta, and I can already see how I'll be interested in playing a while just to try out combos. (Even with the same character; I don't know yet if I want my E/Me to be damage or control oriented yet, but I can clearly see that each possibility is possible for a pretty drastically different play style change for the exact same character class combination. I'm not sure if it's as wide open as Diablo II with all the changes that gear would also throw at the character class/skill tree combinations, but it certainly seems aimed in that direction which is pretty compelling to me.)

Still, it's the fact that it's only $40, in perpetuity, if I don't get wholly sucked in, that made it an easy purchase.

[Xaroc]

For all of you gushing about no monthly fee this needs to be said. GW is not an MMO. It is barely more persitant than Diablo 2. In WoW you can walk from the far northern end to the far southern end of each continent and never load anything and see literally hundreds of people along the way fighting, questing, trading, crafting, etc. Everything in GW is instanced, even the common areas. While I appreciate the tech behind GW it is not an MMO and that is why you are not paying a fee.

-- Xaroc

[extarbags]

For all of you gushing about no monthly fee this needs to be said. GW is not an MMO. It is barely more persitant than Diablo 2. In WoW you can walk from the far northern end to the far southern end of each continent and never load anything and see literally hundreds of people along the way fighting, questing, trading, crafting, etc. Everything in GW is instanced, even the common areas. While I appreciate the tech behind GW it is not an MMO and that is why you are not paying a fee.

-- Xaroc

You say that like it's a bad thing. Sure there are some downsides, but no spawn camping? Super-tight mission design? Guild Wars' design makes it possible to do things that aren't possible in true MMO's; the no monthly fee is just one of the plusses.

[Tyjenks]

For all of you gushing about no monthly fee this needs to be said.
Sorry if I got any on you Xaroc.

Call it what you will. MMORPG Lite. Diablo with prettier pictures. Dungeon Siege....wait, that is not fair to Guild Wars. DS was barely a "G" much less an RPG.

Me Likee!

[Xaroc]

For all of you gushing about no monthly fee this needs to be said. GW is not an MMO. It is barely more persitant than Diablo 2. In WoW you can walk from the far northern end to the far southern end of each continent and never load anything and see literally hundreds of people along the way fighting, questing, trading, crafting, etc. Everything in GW is instanced, even the common areas. While I appreciate the tech behind GW it is not an MMO and that is why you are not paying a fee.

-- Xaroc

You say that like it's a bad thing. Sure there are some downsides, but no spawn camping? Super-tight mission design? Guild Wars' design makes it possible to do things that aren't possible in true MMO's; the no monthly fee is just one of the plusses.

My point is it isn't worthy of a fee. I would never pay $15 a month for GW, it just isn't doing enough to merit the expenditure. It is just funny to see people all happy because they aren't charging a fee and they act as if they are getting over on the man or something. As I said before there is a very clear reason you are not paying a fee.

-- Xaroc

[EFlannum]

For all of you gushing about no monthly fee this needs to be said. GW is not an MMO. It is barely more persitant than Diablo 2. In WoW you can walk from the far northern end to the far southern end of each continent and never load anything and see literally hundreds of people along the way fighting, questing, trading, crafting, etc. Everything in GW is instanced, even the common areas. While I appreciate the tech behind GW it is not an MMO and that is why you are not paying a fee.

-- Xaroc

You say that like it's a bad thing. Sure there are some downsides, but no spawn camping? Super-tight mission design? Guild Wars' design makes it possible to do things that aren't possible in true MMO's; the no monthly fee is just one of the plusses.

My point is it isn't worthy of a fee. I would never pay $15 a month for GW, it just isn't doing enough to merit the expenditure. It is just funny to see people all happy because they aren't charging a fee and they act as if they are getting over on the man or something. As I said before there is a very clear reason you are not paying a fee.

-- Xaroc

Most MMO's aren't charging you 15 dollars a month for the massive persitent part of the game, they are charging you for server bandwidth and maintenance and live team support. Guild Wars offers all of that for free. We are in fact providing for free what others are charging for so the comparison is a lot more valid than you seem to think.

[Xaroc]

For all of you gushing about no monthly fee this needs to be said. GW is not an MMO. It is barely more persitant than Diablo 2. In WoW you can walk from the far northern end to the far southern end of each continent and never load anything and see literally hundreds of people along the way fighting, questing, trading, crafting, etc. Everything in GW is instanced, even the common areas. While I appreciate the tech behind GW it is not an MMO and that is why you are not paying a fee.

-- Xaroc

You say that like it's a bad thing. Sure there are some downsides, but no spawn camping? Super-tight mission design? Guild Wars' design makes it possible to do things that aren't possible in true MMO's; the no monthly fee is just one of the plusses.

My point is it isn't worthy of a fee. I would never pay $15 a month for GW, it just isn't doing enough to merit the expenditure. It is just funny to see people all happy because they aren't charging a fee and they act as if they are getting over on the man or something. As I said before there is a very clear reason you are not paying a fee.

-- Xaroc

Most MMO's aren't charging you 15 dollars a month for the massive persitent part of the game, they are charging you for server bandwidth and maintenance and live team support. Guild Wars offers all of that for free. We are in fact providing for free what others are charging for so the comparison is a lot more valid than you seem to think.

Diablo 2 doesn't charge a monthly fee yet has all of those costs. Also I can't believe your bw and server costs are similar in scale to WoW or EQ2 or SWG. When I grab a couple of henchmen and pop into an instance my guess is that is running almost entirely on my machine with a hook for guild chat and other messages. Even if it is run on your side entirely again Diablo 2 does this as well for free.

BTW, I do like your game, don't get me wrong. It just isn't an MMO.

-- Xaroc

[EFlannum]

Your guess is dead wrong. We handle as much on our servers as any MMO. I am not attacking your opinion, you can go ahead and say that Guild Wars is not a game that you'd pay a monthly fee for, that's fine. What I am trying to do is correct some misconceptions you have about how exactly we support the game. Battle.net for Diablo 2 is a matchmaking service pure and simple. Guild Wars is a client server game where we run all of the game servers. We do this so that we can have as much control as possible over cheaters and hackers, we don't want people cheating in the game as we take the competitive part of it very seriously. Also we will be releasing new and free content and features on a regular basis for the game, something which is also closer to pay to play services than games with no monthly fee.

[selfnoise]

Can you make an argument that WoW is more FUN than Guild Wars to the extent that it's worth a constant stream of cash from my wallet?

It's nice that there's a big world with lots of people running around but unless that demonstrably enhances my experience it's not worth paying for. It's not my problem how much it costs the developers: I only care whether it's worth MY dime as a gameplay enhancement. Your argument about not being able to call for help (earlier in the thread) is valid but I think Arena.net could probably address that in their existing system.

I find Guild Wars to be more fun than a WoW/EQ type game because I only group with people I know and like rather than running around a big area with everyone... it eliminates negative encounters. It's the difference between hiking with your friends on a secluded mountain trail and going to Disney World.

[Xaroc]

Your guess is dead wrong. We handle as much on our servers as any MMO. I am not attacking your opinion, you can go ahead and say that Guild Wars is not a game that you'd pay a monthly fee for, that's fine. What I am trying to do is correct some misconceptions you have about how exactly we support the game. Battle.net for Diablo 2 is a matchmaking service pure and simple. Guild Wars is a client server game where we run all of the game servers. We do this so that we can have as much control as possible over cheaters and hackers, we don't want people cheating in the game as we take the competitive part of it very seriously. Also we will be releasing new and free content and features on a regular basis for the game, something which is also closer to pay to play services than games with no monthly fee.

If Battle.net for D2 is just a matchmaking service then why was the lag when the game came out so bad I swapped to playing single player instead? If it was just handing off to me and whoever was playing there shouldn't have been crushing lag that got better as time passed and fewer people played. I will still give you that you do more than D2 in that there are common areas and guilds and guild halls.

You mention you provide all these things that MMOs provide yet charge no fee. If you really have the server costs etc. of an MMO won't you be bankrupt in a matter of months? It doesn't sound like a really sustainable setup. Doesn't the architecture of the game with all of the instancing lower your hardware requirements and bandwidth requirements on the server side? It seems it would have to for you to keep your costs down.

-- Xaroc

[EFlannum]

We do have better bandwidth issues than most MMO's do but that has less to do with instancing than some other tricks that we use. However we are much much more like an MMO than something like Diablo 2 (which does in fact have some blizzard run servers which I forgot about). The basic premise that our founders had when deciding on no monthly fee is that because of the lack of fees we'd be able to sell enough extra copies up front to offset the lack of a monthly fee. It's really just that simple. Of course only time will tell if this is a viable long term business model or not.

[Xaroc]

We do have better bandwidth issues than most MMO's do but that has less to do with instancing than some other tricks that we use. However we are much much more like an MMO than something like Diablo 2 (which does in fact have some blizzard run servers which I forgot about). The basic premise that our founders had when deciding on no monthly fee is that because of the lack of fees we'd be able to sell enough extra copies up front to offset the lack of a monthly fee. It's really just that simple. Of course only time will tell if this is a viable long term business model or not.

Well let me just say I do wish you guys luck because I enjoy the game semantical issues aside.

-- Xaroc

[jeffr]

I have an old PC that is above the min requirements list on guildwars.com in all areas except the video card. I plan to buy a new PC in a few months, but I'm wondering if I'd be able to play Guild Wars now.

Do any of you play with old machines or know if my machine would be able to play the game at low settings?

1 gHz Athlon Thunderbird
384 meg ram
64 mb Geforce 2
cable modem


thanks, jeff

[Xaroc]

I have an old PC that is above the min requirements list on guildwars.com in all areas except the video card. I plan to buy a new PC in a few months, but I'm wondering if I'd be able to play Guild Wars now.

Do any of you play with old machines or know if my machine would be able to play the game at low settings?

1 gHz Athlon Thunderbird
384 meg ram
64 mb Geforce 2
cable modem


thanks, jeff

I played at work on 2ghz p4 with a very underclocked GF4. A buddy of mine here at work played the beta on a 700 with a GF2 or 3. So you are probably ok.

-- Xaroc

[mouselock]

My point is it isn't worthy of a fee. I would never pay $15 a month for GW, it just isn't doing enough to merit the expenditure. It is just funny to see people all happy because they aren't charging a fee and they act as if they are getting over on the man or something. As I said before there is a very clear reason you are not paying a fee.

-- Xaroc

That's not why I'm happy about it at all. I'm happy because it's a game that has gameplay that seems similar to games that have historically been of interest to me, and it's constructed in an online, multiplayer environment, but I'm not forced to constantly evaluate whether the fun I'm getting from the game justifies the ongoing expense. For what I get for the monthly fee I pay (i.e. zero), it's a damned easy decision to make!

I'm not trying to say "Hey, toss over MMOs for Guild Wars". I'm saying "Hey, it's an online only game, but it's not an MMO. And part of that not an MMO bit is there's also no MMO fee structure to justify." All I have to do is decide if it was worth my $40 or not. I'm not committing myself to an ongoing relationship where the game continues to nag me when I fail to take the trash out. It's like the local easy slut of games - it's there if I want it, but if I'd rather play my PS2 this weekend it doesn't care, because someone else is going to be pushing its buttons anyway! Yet, if I want to get in a little action for a bit, it's ready and eager. Win-win!

[Soldats]

I have an old PC that is above the min requirements list on guildwars.com in all areas except the video card. I plan to buy a new PC in a few months, but I'm wondering if I'd be able to play Guild Wars now.

Do any of you play with old machines or know if my machine would be able to play the game at low settings?

1 gHz Athlon Thunderbird
384 meg ram
64 mb Geforce 2
cable modem


thanks, jeff

It'll play. Ask the QtoT guys that I've played with, and you'll hear about "the guy with the horrible system". It runs on my P3 866mhz, 256RAM, and TNT2, so trust me, it'll work on yours. :lol:

[EvilIdler]

Ask the QtoT guys that I've played with, and you'll hear about "the guy with the horrible system". It runs on my P3 866mhz, 256RAM, and TNT2, so trust me, it'll work on yours. :lol:

That system of yours is so bad I'm pondering mailing off my Ti4800
(I haven't found a purpose for it yet). But will the Stasi stop it at the
border to check for terrorist propaganda and weapons of mass
destruction? I'll have to see what it would cost to send it off first :)

[jeffr]

I played at work on 2ghz p4 with a very underclocked GF4. A buddy of mine here at work played the beta on a 700 with a GF2 or 3. So you are probably ok.

It'll play. Ask the QtoT guys that I've played with, and you'll hear about "the guy with the horrible system". It runs on my P3 866mhz, 256RAM, and TNT2, so trust me, it'll work on yours. :lol:

Thanks for the info. I think I'll pick it up. I've never played an online game before (only Dominions 2 multiplayer, not quite the same), so we'll see how this goes. There sounds like there is some strategy in the mixing of classes and skills, which is cool, and not as much of the "grind" that I've read so much about in other MMOGs. I'll probably solo for a bit with the henchmen to learn the ropes.

[Tyjenks]

Has anybody mentioned how there is a whole other game after the "searing"? :wink:

Maybe it is because I have not been through any sort of RPG in a while, but I am having a blast and have yet to even join up with anyone. I was ready to move to post-sear with my Mo/W after exploring and multiple quests as I did not want to miss anything. I was home with my 4-year old daughter yesterday. We decided to whip her up a charater since she had seen what daddy was doing the day before. SHe wanted a Mesmer. Well, I ended up playing her through most of yesterday until she was at level 7 and still pre-seared.

All of my talk of being able to play in small increments do to time constraints has flown out the window. My daughter will sit in my lap as I tell her which numbers to push in between my own key pressing and mouse clicking.

Good stuff.