Cyber-stalking...Or just stalking. [Archive]

Murph

01-05-2003, 04:29 PM

Okay, a buddy of mine is totally smitten with this chick that was on his flight home the other night. We've managed to track down her name and address (which was the hard part), but we haven't been able to get her phone number or e-mail address yet. (We found her little sister's e-mail address, but not hers.) Before he resorts to outright stalking, anyone have any suggestions of ways, online or other, that he might be able to get her phone number?

Any suggestions are welcome. I've never seen him this crazy about a girl -- and he's been engaged. :-)

wumpus

01-05-2003, 04:32 PM

Hasn't something very similar to this come up before-- and from Murph? I think it has.

Anonymous

01-05-2003, 04:53 PM

This just doesn't sound like the kind of thing that can possibly turn out well. Unless by some amazing stroke of luck or fate this woman is in a state of absolute regret that she didn't talk to your friend, the chances of her being happy about being contacted by (let's face it) a total stranger are like one hojillion to one. This is the kind of thing that creeps most women out apparently.

My only advice is that you encourage your friend to drop it altogether. I honestly wish we lived in a world in which every guy and every girl found an amazingly attractive and exciting so-and-so of their dreams, but unfortunately that world only exists in japanese dating simulators.

Good luck to your friend! :D

SpoofyChop

01-05-2003, 04:54 PM

Sorry...the above was from me.

[EDIT: Also, I mean good luck in his future endeavors! :D]

Jakub

01-05-2003, 05:58 PM

Wow, this can't turn out good.

The best I'd suggest is that your buddy try to have a random meeting with her... just run into her out of the blue. Telling her that he hunted her down is like, well, telling a girl you hunted her down. Women want to feel secure around you, not scared.

Murph

01-05-2003, 06:15 PM

Yes, I've made a request like this once before -- different girl, different friend.

She was totally checking him out, too. He didn't approach because she was with her mom, and he said she was one of those girls who could conceivably be 15 or 20. (We know that she's 21, but he wasn't sure at the time, and he didn't want to be pegged as a pedophile.) Because she was checking him out, most of the girls my wife works with agree that, assuming she doesn't find out how much trouble he went through, they would be flattered and not overly freaked out. Because she was checking him out, and he's totally smitten, he thinks it's worth the trouble.

Anyway, you guys are no help. I figured you guys would be good at cyber-stalking. :-)

Ah, well. Just thought maybe you could help.

Kool Moe Dee

01-05-2003, 07:10 PM

Sweet baby Jesus is this creepy.

But if you REALLY want to do this, I suggest taking every scrap of information you know about this woman, and feed it to the monster known as Google. Friends, family, home town information...basically, if you can find out where they live, then you stand a good chance of being able to get a phone number either from the phone book, or from information.

I do think it's a bad idea to do this, though. It's a very creepy thing to do, and I'm not sure if our society's collective mind is comfortable yet with being tracked down in this way. :?

Brandon Clements

01-05-2003, 08:10 PM

Yeah, this is kinda creepy (and even more creepy if you realize that this could be you on the other end of this one day).

But if you REALLY want to do this, I suggest taking every scrap of information you know about this woman, and feed it to the monster known as Google.
Do this first, making certain that she doesn't have some boyfriend with a rage problem, then...

The best I'd suggest is that your buddy try to have a random meeting with her... just run into her out of the blue. Telling her that he hunted her down is like, well, telling a girl you hunted her down. Women want to feel secure around you, not scared.
I couldn't have said it better myself.

voltaic

01-05-2003, 08:41 PM

Just have him e-mail her sister (whose website you have found) and ask for the chick's e-mail address. It's that simple: just ask. He didn't do it before, he needs to get a balls-implant and do it now.

Murph

01-05-2003, 09:12 PM

Yup, he's already e-mailed her sister, and I think we're just gonna let it go at that...Unless he doesn't hear back in, like, a week.

She's got an unlisted number -- we already tried the phone book.

And she's not gonna know how much trouble he went through, regardless. Sure, that'd creep her out, and rightfully so. But it's really not that creepy, if you know the guy.

Anyway, he e-mailed her sister and told her basically what's going on (we got her e-mail address through a Google search) to see if she'll help out.

Thanks, guys. And it's not that creepy.

Ron Dulin

01-06-2003, 03:50 AM

Thanks, guys. And it's not that creepy.

Actually, it's incredibly creepy. If the girl isn't disturbed to restraining-order levels, then she probably isn't worth knowing. Did your friend even talk to this girl? If not, then it's even worse.

It's too late for this advice, but: he should've just run a few "missed connection"-type personals or something similar. Find a public way to put the info out there without invading her personal life. That way, he can say "hey, I wish I had asked for your info" and still retain some shred of dignity. But emailing her sister is just about the worst thing he could do, as far as I'm concerned, because it shows the lengths he went to to find her.

I'm sure some people would be vaguely flattered by this kind of attention. But flattered in the "Wow, that's neat that someone thought I was cute enough to warrant this kind of research! I must use this newfound confidence to my advantage with non-stalking creepy people" way, and that doesn't help your friend.

Murph

01-06-2003, 04:40 AM

We found her sister's e-mail address in about two minutes through Google. It was no huge deal.

Ron Dulin

01-06-2003, 05:31 AM

We found her sister's e-mail address in about two minutes through Google. It was no huge deal.

But how did you even find out who her sister is? Based on your original post, your friend didn't even know this girl's name. Now, however many days later, he's emailing her sister. That, my friend, is creepy.

Guido Jones

01-06-2003, 05:44 AM

He stated he had her Name and Home address, and presumably tracked down the sister through that. How he got the Name and Home address by just seeing her in the airport without talking to her is .....odd.

And agreed, pretty creepy - but at least the friend didn't show up at her house and start looking in windows.

DennyA

01-06-2003, 06:10 AM

Yeah, did he get her name and home address through a friend/family member who worked for the airline? That's not only creepy, it seems like it'd be grounds for dismissal for whoever gave him the info...

Murph

01-06-2003, 06:18 AM

Let me clarify: He knew her name, 'cause he heard her sister call her that on the plane, and he was pretty confident of her last name, 'cause he heard the gate agent call her party (they were flying standby, so they call your name to come up to the desk), which my wife -- who also works for the same airline as this girl's mother -- then verified by glancing at the standby list for the flight. Nothing that could get her in trouble, and she didn't tell him anything he didn't know -- she just verified that he did have the correct name. I forget how he knew her sister's name -- probably the same way he knew hers, based on the conversation on the plane (they were sitting in the row right in front of him) -- but a quick Google of the last name turned up her e-mail address within the first few matches.

chet

01-06-2003, 07:32 AM

So his opening line to her is going to be - "I was eavesdropping on your conversation on the plane and..."

Your friend is a creep. If the girl was so hot for him she would have turned around and asked him for a magazine during the flight.

Chet

greywind

01-06-2003, 07:44 AM

Just because this girl looked at your friend in some supposed "checking him out" kind of way does not imply that she said "here's my phone number, give me a call sometime." And unless she did that, it's stalking. A friend of mine threw her photo package in the garbage at the drugstore, and some creep who thought she was pretty dug it out of the garbage and started phoning her because her number was on the package. I wonder if he thought she was "checking him out"?

My best advice would be to tell him he's making a big mistake trying to track her down.

ian

Jim F.

01-06-2003, 07:47 AM

I'm not usually one to cramp a guy's style, but lets say he's completely honest with her. Do you think she wouldn't run away screaming?

Him: "Hey there, my name is (blah). I was the guy you were checking out on the plane"

Her: "Erm... who?"

Him: "I heard your named called over the intercom at the airport and I just had to talk to you. I would have approached you at the airport, but I thought you might be 15 and didn't want to appear to be a pedophile.. but now I know you're 21 and I can say you're hot without sounding creepy."

Her: "Who are you?"

Him: "You were checking me out, remember? I can't stop thinking about you. Now that we're talking, your voice is even more beautiful than I remember from your converstation with your sister"

Her: "I'm hanging up now..."

Anonymous

01-06-2003, 07:56 AM

That, my friend, is creepy.
Welcome to the world of Murph.

-wumpus

Kyle Wilson

01-06-2003, 09:08 AM

Just ignore all the doubters, Murph. What you, I mean your friend, need to do is, since you have the girl's address, go and hang out around her house. See what kind of neighborhood she lives in. Peek through the windows and see if you can find out what her interests are; that'll give you an in when it gets to be time to talk to her.

Let her see you hanging around, but don't get too close. Disappear if she starts to approach you. That way, she'll think you're mysterious; it'll keep her wanting more.

Finally, women like big strong men who can protect them. So if she does see you, it would be a good idea if you could flash a gun or knife or baseball bat. That way she'll know that you're prepared to take care of her the way she needs.

Good luck!

Bullhajj

01-06-2003, 09:26 AM

Wow, all the psychoanalyzing for this?

Bub, Andrew

01-06-2003, 09:39 AM

I think your friend should go stand in front of this girl's house with a big 80's era boom box. The boom box should be playing something that reflects his intentions... like Peter Gabrial or maybe more appropriately, the Police's "Every Breath You Take."

Murph, this is creepy. Look at it this way, there's only one way to get your number unlisted. And that's to ask for it to be unlisted. There are a lot of good reasons why she might have her number unlisted, of course, but I'm thinking that "creepy guys in her life" might be a high percentage bet.

Murph

01-06-2003, 02:26 PM

Wow. I'm starting to think this is creepy. :-)

Well, what's done is done, now. My wife took a survey of the ladies at work the other night, and they didn't think it was too weird -- they agreed that they'd be more flattered than freaked.

He e-mailed her sister, so I guess the ball's in their court now. He said that the e-mail was pretty straightforward, and he was confident that the creep factor was pretty low. I just hope he's right.

Anyway, if he thinks this girl was checking him out, I'm sure she was. He said she must have looked back at him at least twenty times, and a couple of times her little sister looked back over the seat and batter her eyes at him in that "my sister thinks you're hot" kinda way (after which she got hit by "the girl"). If he says she was checking him out, she must have been pretty obvious -- he's usually totally oblivious to stuff like that. My wife had a crush on him for over a year in high school, and he never noticed. My sister-in-law has had a crush on him for awhile, too, and he had no clue until I told him. He's not the kind of guy to make something like that up.

I think he's just going to be mostly honest. Yeah, maybe we did go a bit overboard, and she obviously doesn't want to know to what lengths we went. I think he'll leave it at "I didn't talk to you in the airport because you were with your mom, and I've regretted it ever since."

This guy's not a total creep. This is so unlike him -- just to be this infatuated with a girl. It's not like he's a habitual stalker. It sure sounds like a case of "love at first sight" to me.

Murph

01-06-2003, 02:28 PM

Look at it this way, there's only one way to get your number unlisted. And that's to ask for it to be unlisted. There are a lot of good reasons why she might have her number unlisted, of course, but I'm thinking that "creepy guys in her life" might be a high percentage bet.

It's her mom's (or parents') number, so it probably wasn't her choice to have it unlisted.

Bullhajj

01-06-2003, 02:51 PM

Man, all of you folks suggesting creepy are starting to make me rethink all the time I spend on this board. ;)

Didn't any of you people ever do this sort of thing in high school? It just seems so commonplace to me. If you saw a girl you were interested who attended a different high school, say at a football game or mall or something, how did you get a phone number if you didn't have a chance to chat? We got on the phone (pre-internet days, yes, I'm a dinosaur) and talked to friends, got yearbooks, tried to remember names sewn onto jackets... I don’t believe this is stalking. It could have crossed the line had someone from the airlines shared inappropriate information, but doesn't sound like that happened.

Lol, taking out a singles add would have been the *absolute* wrong way to approach in my hometown. Maybe a wee bit immature, but what is it with all the doom and gloom? Just goes to show, never ask a geek for romantic advice. :lol:

greywind

01-06-2003, 03:04 PM

Sheesh Tim, are you the only one on here that hasn't been charged under 18 USC § 2261A?

Errrmm, well, not that....ahem...anyone else here might have been.....

Bub, Andrew

01-06-2003, 05:38 PM

It's her mom's (or parents') number, so it probably wasn't her choice to have it unlisted.

Ok, see, I was assuming this girl was an adult. I'm also assuming that your friend is an adult? Also, he's emailing this non-adult girl's sister? Presumably her younger sister? If he's an adult why is he flirting with minors at the airport? And why didn't he approach her when she was "checking him out"? I'm sure they did that even at Tim Elhajj's High School.

Then again a few of the people saying "creepy" also have daughters. Take that for what it's worth.

Murph

01-06-2003, 06:44 PM

She's 21, but she was flying standby on her mom's flight benefits, so she has to be a full-time college student. If she goes to college very far away, she'll be leaving this week, so that's certainly affecting his choice of actions. He's 24, and he's e-mailing her sister (who is about 14) because her e-mail address was easily found through a Google search. Very not creepy that way, we were hoping.

My buddy said earlier "The problem is, all those other stalkers are giving us a bad name." :-) He's a regular guy, who just really, really wants to meet this girl.

Sparky

01-06-2003, 06:51 PM

CREEPY. Now, if he had actually said something to her (Hey, can I help you open those peanuts? Excuse me, do you have any extra pillows up there? Gee, has anyone told you that you look like Mariah Carey?[1]) - then it wouldn't be. But a guy who is too shy to introduce himself...looks you up and emails your sister? Yecch. Also, the "she was checking me out" is still dubious - many people (especially ones without the social experience or confidence to approach someone) interpret signals in an overly positive way. Heck, he's taking hints from a child who peeks over a seat to "bat her eyes" at him. Is he twelve? Why didn't he just reach over the seat and give her a noogie?

But since he's already gone and done it, some advice for him: if she doesn't answer, or seems even remotely uninterested (most people will try to be nice, they won't say it outright) don't try to contact her again. LEAVE HER ALONE, SHE DOESN'T LIKE YOU. GO EAT WORMS.

[1] Some guy walked up and said this to me once. I am nothing like Mariah Carey other than we are both female and can't act worth a damn.

Murph

01-06-2003, 07:38 PM

You're probably right, Sparky. Well, I dunno about the creepy part. Like I said, somebody has to be really obvious in checking this guy out for him to notice. If he says that she was checking him out, I'm sure she really was. (He said she was looking at him so much that he was afraid that he had something between his teeth or something, but he's totally certain that he didn't. He double- and triple-checked.)

He didn't want to approach her in front of her mother. He was afraid she'd turn out to be 16 and he'd get arrested.

Anyway, here's hoping that things turn out well.

Anonymous

01-06-2003, 07:51 PM

(He said she was looking at him so much that he was afraid that he had something between his teeth or something, but he's totally certain that he didn't. He double- and triple-checked.)

But to notice her looking at him so much he had to have been looking at HER at least that much. Maybe she was just wondering why this creepy bastard was staring at her while picking his teeth constantly.

chet

01-06-2003, 07:56 PM

Did you ever think the girl and her sister were peeking over their chairs to stare at the freak sitting behind them?

In public non-single meeting places, most women have the natural reflex of a smile. If they catch you staring at them they flash a smile. That smile is not an invitation, it is a warning.

Adding that you are pumping a 14 year old girl, that you only know by an email address, for information does not help the idea that your friend is not a creep. What next? Does she have a younger brother you can invite back to the rectory so you can ask him some questions?

Chet

Sparky

01-06-2003, 08:55 PM

He didn't want to approach her in front of her mother. He was afraid she'd turn out to be 16 and he'd get arrested.
But if a girl looks that young, not "I wonder if she's in college?" but "I wonder if she still likes Care Bears?" young...sure, it's fine to "lust after her in his heart" like Jimmy Carter said, but to try to make an end-run around Mom instead of approaching...that's kinda weird. He's 24. Besides, what was he going to say to her that would offend the mother? He could have just tried to start a friendly conversation (and thus found out her age). When some guy on a plane asks me where I'm traveling to, or if I've already seen the inevitable in-flight Meg Ryan movie, I don't immediately ask to see his driver's license or assume he wants to jump me.

Bullhajj

01-06-2003, 09:13 PM

So I mentioned this to my wife not long ago and she convinced me that my high school situation is fundamentally different than the situation we have here.

Murph, since you're the only one who knows who this guy is I was wondering if you wouldn't mind giving me his name and address so I could alert the appropriate local authorities. :twisted:

But seriously, maybe it is a little creepy without the trappings of a small town football game or mall. In my situation both parties could usually find out about the other party from a 3rd party, and everyone involved was just a kid.

Brian Koontz

01-06-2003, 09:30 PM

He didn't want to approach her in front of her mother. He was afraid she'd turn out to be 16 and he'd get arrested.

Whoo boy. I'm just an old fashioned kind of guy. I thought you actually had to FUCK a 16 year old girl (in certain states) and then IF you were turned in AND there was probable cause you'd be arrested (and then being convicted is a seperate issue). I'm apparently not up with the legal changes that now make the mere approach to, the mere nearing proximity of physical location, the mere sharing a single molecule of air a cause for prosecution.

But silly me. What you meant to say was that your "friend" already was making plans for marriage with this young nubile girl and therefore didn't want to in any way shape or form possibly exude even a modicum of disrespect to the mother and thereby hinder the chances of said marriage from taking place. Your friend is a political genius! Only such a human carries out such a plan to circumvent the mother entirely! Brilliant! Email the sister and then get in touch with the hottie. The Mother Problem averted!

Just warn your friend... sometimes they carry Mace. I suggest Goggles. He's already experienced with G's and O's combined with his political infiltrations.

Wait, wait... he's still not ready... sometimes they carry handguns. I suggest a bullet proof vest and a shirt that says "Shoot me here" (on the front).

Go get 'em, tiger!

Murph

01-06-2003, 11:36 PM

I love it that two people have insinuated that this is really me. I guess I can see why people might think that...except that I'm happily married.

He's totally kicking himself for not talking to her when he had the chance.

And just when I thought I had Tim on my side, he turns on me. :-)

westyx2

01-07-2003, 01:22 AM

On the internet when you do that, it's like putting a cow with broken legs right in front of a pack of starving, rabid wolves. :)

Kevin Perry

01-07-2003, 09:08 AM

Murph, look at how bad this has gotten.

Brian Koontz has a rational reply that your friend is way over the line.

Chew on that one for a while.

Anonymous

01-07-2003, 06:59 PM

Congratulations. This is making it's rounds about the internet. The link I clicked on was called "why girls think guys are creeps". I hope you uh, are starting to get the clue.

Murph

01-07-2003, 11:02 PM

It's a moot point now, anyway. Ironically enough, he bumped into her and they chatted for a bit (yes, after he e-mailed her sister, and no, she didn't think he was creepy, though she apparently hadn't read the e-mail yet -- he confessed), and it turns out she's involved with someone already. Ah, well.

And for the record, he's not a creep, and neither am I. It's not like he did anything even remotely illegal, or overly questionable. We Googled her, and I asked if any of you had any other suggestions for public records or public internet ways of locating someone.

Perhaps the fault was largely mine for my choice of titles, because in truth, I don't think he ever reached the point that it became "stalking," or anything very close. I was kidding around in my choice of titles for the thread, and perhaps that's come back to bite me in the butt.

But if running somebody's name through Google hoping to get a phone number is that creepy -- well, I'm glad I know that now before it ever really becomes an issue. Sheesh.

Sean Tudor

01-08-2003, 01:04 AM

Ten years ago this would not have caused a problem. But we now live in a politically correct world where you aren't allowed to talk about women at work, or in public, or you're not allowed to look at them the wrong way, etc. etc.

It is no wonder people have become paranoid.

shrug

I didn't see anything wrong with what Murph was saying. Yet look at some of the responses here in this thread. Haven't any of you watched Sleepless In Seattle ? Or You've Got Mail ?

Why does there have to be a right way and a wrong way to meet someone ? Isn't it simply enough that someone has gone out of their way to try and find the partner of their dreams ?

deanco

01-08-2003, 02:07 AM

I agree with Sean. And I consider this thread quite revealing of the current American mind-set when it comes to seduction, meeting and picking up girls, etc. But then again...

"Just goes to show, never ask a geek for romantic advice...."

DeanCo--

Sparky

01-08-2003, 02:45 AM

This has nothing to do with romance, seduction, or bad Meg Ryan movies. The age (or perceived age) of the woman involved in this situation is what made it creepy. Nowadays, young women are susceptible to a bit more stalkery creepiness than in the past. Yes, it's always been there - for example, back in high school, my picture appeared in the local paper for some reason, and the next day we got a call from a strange man who had called everyone in the phone book with our last name until he got the right one. My mom, thinking it was a friend, gave me the phone.

Creeeeepy. Luckily I realized after a few minutes (duh, the naivete of a 16-year-old) that something was wrong and hung up on him (he was obviously much older than me), but who knows what could have happened? He had my address and phone number. He had to work pretty hard to get that info, but now, it's faster and easier. Young people often do not have the ability to tell the difference between a nice guy who's too shy to approach them...and a dangerous creep. Knowing that, Murph's friend should probably have approached her in public and started a conversation, or just left her alone.

Gundaliro

01-08-2003, 06:31 AM

It's a moot point now, anyway. Ironically enough, he bumped into her and they chatted for a bit (yes, after he e-mailed her sister, and no, she didn't think he was creepy, though she apparently hadn't read the e-mail yet -- he confessed), and it turns out she's involved with someone already. Ah, well.

So much for the "twenty million instances of eye contact means I want you" theory. The cynic in me is imagining the old "imaginary boyfriend" trick.

But if running somebody's name through Google hoping to get a phone number is that creepy -- well, I'm glad I know that now before it ever really becomes an issue. Sheesh.

I don't think it was the Google thing; it was the way you determined her name without actually talking to her directly. May be a valid way to learn someone's name -- if you're spying on them.

SpoofyChop

01-08-2003, 07:21 AM

For me, the creepiness came from the sense I got that the tracking down was an invasion of privacy. It didn't have anything to do with the age of the woman since it seemed like that was established by the end of the flight.

It just seems like we've lost the ability to travel anonymously these days. So much information is collected as we go from place to place that anybody with even a little access can get information we'd probably rather not give out to random strangers.

I'm glad it worked out non-wierdly for your friend though Murph! :)

Ron Dulin

01-08-2003, 07:43 AM

I don't think you guys understand how serious this is. I do some work for a company that does just this: tracks people down based on public/ non-intrusive records. The legality of doing this is always questionable, and in every case you must have a justifiable reason. The company must record every search we do, and there are only a few valid reasons for searching public databases to track someone down. In case you're wondering, "I think she was checking me out on a plane" isn't one of them.

In has nothing to do with political correctness. It has to do with an individual's right to reasonable privacy. The lengths and resources Murph's friend went to in order to find this girl are the problem - it would be very different if he they had mutual acquaintences and he got her info that way.

How did your friend "run into her"? If he used the info he found to track her down, then it has gone from the realm of "cyberstalking" into the realm of bona-fide stalking.

Anders Hallin

01-08-2003, 07:58 AM

"I think she was checking me out on a plane" isn't one of them.
How about "But dude, she totally was!"?

SpoofyChop

01-08-2003, 08:19 AM

The legality of doing this is always questionable, and in every case you must have a justifiable reason.

It didn't even occur to me that this might be of questionable legality, but I'm glad there are some protections in place against invasion of privacy.

I think it's obvious that Murph's friends case sounds relatively innocent, and it sounds like it worked out okay in the end. Personally, I'm not worried about protecting myself or others from people like Murph's friend.

But it looks like you have to be careful that you don't end up doing something that makes you look to law enforcement like the kind of person the privacy law was designed to target.

Maybe the moral of the story is "Don't even sorta stalk."

Murph

01-08-2003, 09:45 AM

How did your friend "run into her"? If he used the info he found to track her down, then it has gone from the realm of "cyberstalking" into the realm of bona-fide stalking.

I'm 99.9% sure that he did not. He ran into her at the store -- I think it was Wal-Mart. The store was just a little way from her house, but it was also just a little way from his mom's boyfriend's house, from where he was returning. He swears it was coincidence that he stopped at that one, and it was legitimately on his way home.

I don't feel like we ever invaded her privacy, but I guess that's debatable among some circles. We did not do anything crazy like dig through her trash, or, for that matter, even take other (legal) steps like going to the library and looking at property tax information, which is public, and which was suggested to us, because we felt like that was going too far. I didn't feel like a couple of internet searches was too scary.

Oh, and Sparky, we did manage to find out her age through our very first Google search, and she was 21. Had she been younger, or we hadn't known, we would have dropped it much sooner.

And just because she's involved doesn't mean that she wasn't checking him out. It doesn't make him a liar, at all.

SpoofyChop

01-08-2003, 09:49 AM

Bullhajj

01-08-2003, 09:59 AM

Nowadays, young women are susceptible to a bit more stalkery creepiness than in the past.

Why do you say that?

back in high school, my picture appeared in the local paper for some reason, and the next day we got a call from a strange man who had called everyone in the phone book with our last name until he got the right one.

Now this is much creepier than the story that started this thread, IMO.

The legality of [tracking people down based on public records] is always questionable, and in every case you must have a justifiable reason.

Ron, you're pinging my BS meter like mad here. This just sounds completely wrong. What if I track you down and don't have a justifiable reason. What law are you going to use to defend yourself? Whose jurisdiction? Gimmie a break. This just seems like one of those crazy things you hear on the internet that has no basis in reality. I know people who actually get threatend by someone, call the cops, and the police say, "Sorry, Amigo. We'd like to help you out, but he hasn't broken any law."

Gundaliro

01-08-2003, 10:24 AM

Ron Dulin

01-08-2003, 10:31 AM

Ron, you're pinging my BS meter like mad here. This just sounds completely wrong. What if I track you down and don't have a justifiable reason. What law are you going to use to defend yourself? Whose jurisdiction? Gimmie a break. This just seems like one of those crazy things you hear on the internet that has no basis in reality.

The laws protecting privacy are primarily federal, but there are state laws as well. Your BS meter can "ping" all you want, but it is a tricky area. The company I work for is a 20-year old private research firm, and for every single database search I do, I have to fill out forms in which the reasons for the search are clearly delineated. Mind you, these are mostly just databses of names and phone numbers. Organized phone book histories, for the most part. This is because of federal and state laws, which prohibit the unauthorized use of such information. If you knew how much information I could get on you in about 5 minutes, without your permission or a signed release, you'd be thankful for the safeguards. And anyone has access to it if they just know where to look. Which is why the legality of it is somewhat shaky.

Bullhajj

01-08-2003, 10:41 AM

The laws protecting privacy are primarily federal, but there are state laws as well. Your BS meter can "ping" all you want, but it is a tricky area.

I don't doubt that you have to do all those things at your job. But I call bullshit on this statement:

The legality of [tracking people down based on public records] is always questionable, and in every case you must have a justifiable reason.

Maybe you personally at your job. But not the rest of the world. Good luck trying to get someone in Federal law enforcement to prosecute me for tracking you down based on public records. Christsakes, that means looking you up in the phone book! Not going to happen.

Bub, Andrew

01-08-2003, 10:44 AM

Supertanker

01-08-2003, 10:47 AM

If fifteen years from now a guy does something like this to track down one of my daughters, I probably would view it as more clever and less creepy. A lot of that decision is going to depend on the attitudes of everyone involved. I probably wouldn't untie him and put away the shotgun until I was sure, though.

Jack

01-08-2003, 10:55 AM

Supertanker, you'd also have to consider whether he's done it before. He might not be so much clever as practiced. :) I think tracking a girl down like this is a little more creepy than clever because it's relatively easy; all you need is a browser, a name, and a Google.

It's not quite like climbing a mountain for your True Love. It's more like punching some keys for hot nookie.

Bullhajj

01-08-2003, 10:58 AM

PC? Bah.
I think the lesson here might be:

If you're attracted to somebody, approach them. Google, 14-year-old sister's email addresses, and passenger manifests obtained by your friend's mom, really shouldn't be involved in your dating life.

Gah, this is so silly. So if the child had been 18, it still would have been creepy because it involved an internet search and some detective work?

Bullhajj

01-08-2003, 11:01 AM

like punching some keys for hot nookie.

God that's a lurid way to look at it.

Ron Dulin

01-08-2003, 11:01 AM

Maybe you personally at your job. But not the rest of the world. Good luck trying to get someone in Federal law enforcement to prosecute me for tracking you down based on public records. Christsakes, that means looking you up in the phone book! Not going to happen.

That's a completely different situation than what Murph is describing, and perhaps I should have made that clearer. You know my name and can look it up in the phone book. If you didn't know my real name, and you used my IP to track down my general vicinity, then searched location databases and phone histories to find my name, then looked me up, and then actually contacted me, it would be a different story. In most cases, it wouldn't be an issue. Say an old friend tries to find you; you'd have no reason to feel threatened.

And it is not just for me at my job. These are safeguards, imposed by the federal government, on publicly-accessible databases. If Murph's friend got a little weird, and the girl felt threatened, the manner in which he found her would become an issue in any legal proceedings. I can't believe that you don't see that it could potentially be an issue. Piecing together someone's name and then contacting her via her minor sister's website is very different than looking Ron Dulin up in the Brooklyn phone book.

Bullhajj

01-08-2003, 11:08 AM

Murph

01-08-2003, 11:11 AM

You know, I think there's probably an exciting "scavenger hunt" sort of element to this that's pretty innocent but might be misconstrued by some people. I bet it was pretty exciting just to try and see if you could find out who she was. It's like a quest.

This is more true than you could possibly know. Sure, he wanted to meet the girl, but I think at some point it did become more about "can we do this" than anything else.

Anyway, I apologize if I creeped anyone out. Neither one of us are psychos, neither of us has tried to track anyone down before, and neither one of us is likely to do this again. It's not like he goes hunting down every pretty girl he meets. I guess you'll just have to trust me on that one, but...Well, he doesn't.

Ron Dulin

01-08-2003, 11:13 AM

I can't believe that you don't see that it could potentially be an issue.

I see that it could be a potential issue, for whatever that is worth. I am just being practical. Turning this particular potential issue into something that anyone in law enforcement is actually going to do something about is the issue. Thus, the warning you posted above seemed a little dire and over the top to me.

Perhaps. But I was just trying to point out that the situation isn't all harmless and cute. It is the little dainty bud that blooms into the sweet flower of stalking. And, to bring it all full circle, it's just creepy.

As for Sparky's "dude saw my picture in the paper" story being creepier, I don't see how. It's basically the same story, and the guy could even say "she kept looking at me," provided Sparky was looking into the camera.

Murph

01-08-2003, 11:18 AM

He swears it was coincidence that he stopped at that one, and it was legitimately on his way home.

I like how you made sure to point that up, that he had to clarify that he was there legimately and not hanging outside in the bushes.

Are you implying something? I already confessed that we found her address -- I was trying to head an accusation off at the pass. (And, for the record, the quoted statement should be read more as "He swears it was coincidence that he stopped at that store. It is, however, legitimately on his way home -- that I know for a fact.")

I was just trying to point out to everyone that what Murph's friend isn't all harmless and cute. It is the little dainty bud that blooms into the sweet flower of stalking. And, to bring it all full circle, it's just creepy.

As for Sparky's "dude saw my picture in the paper" story being creepier, I don't see how. It's basically the same story, and the guy could even say "she kept looking at me," provided Sparky was looking into the camera.

You really don't see a difference? I mean, there was certainly some interest expressed on her part. Otherwise, he wouldn't have pursued her at all.

And I just can't believe that so many people think that, even though he knew her name and was totally enamoured with her -- she could have been "the one" -- that he should have just ignored it and forgotten it.

But, I guess the moral for everyone is: If you sit behind a cute girl on a plane, talk to her there, or at the airport. He was kicking himself for not doing so.

Bullhajj

01-08-2003, 11:22 AM

Perhaps. But I was just trying to point out that the situation isn't all harmless and cute. It is the little dainty bud that blooms into the sweet flower of stalking. And, to bring it all full circle, it's just creepy.

As for Sparky's "dude saw my picture in the paper" story being creepier, I don't see how. It's basically the same story, and the guy could even say "she kept looking at me," provided Sparky was looking into the camera.

Wow, these are very strange remarks. You really believe Sparky's dude could make that kind of statement and not be insane? Wait, don't answer. I am going to stop responding to this because I cannot compete with lines like this:

It is the little dainty bud that blooms into the sweet flower of stalking.

chet

01-08-2003, 11:29 AM

You really don't see a difference? I mean, there was certainly some interest expressed on her part. Otherwise, he wouldn't have pursued her at all.

And letterman was sending secret love codes to his stalker.

Obviously she did not care enough to talk to him, and either she made up that is involved to get rid of the creepy guy from the plane or that involvement must be serious enough to tell your friend to get lost. Either way, it points that your friend misread her. Does this friend go into strip bars and think all the girls are smiling at him because they like him?

Going thru the 14 year old is what made this seriously creepy, past some meg ryan quest.

Chet

Ron Dulin

01-08-2003, 11:32 AM

Wow, these are very strange remarks.[/quote]

or maybe just a joke.

Bullhajj

01-08-2003, 11:36 AM

But, I guess the moral for everyone is: If you sit behind a cute girl on a plane, talk to her there, or at the airport. He was kicking himself for not doing so.

Gah. If I take this advice it will be the danity little bud that blooms into divorce, but I get your point.

Bullhajj

01-08-2003, 11:40 AM

or maybe just a joke.

Duh, sorry Ron. I should have guessed. I trying to get a bunch of other stuff done and am not giving a lot of thought to my replies.

Murph

01-08-2003, 11:50 AM

Does this friend go into strip bars and think all the girls are smiling at him because they like him?

No -- which is why, when he said, "She was checking me out," I took his word for it. I think I said once before that this guy is usually totally oblivious to it when girls have crushes on him -- which is not uncommon, because every girl I know that's met him agrees that he's a pretty nice-looking guy.

I dunno if sending the e-mail was a mistake or not. I get what you're saying, Chet, and I didn't think it was a particularly good idea, but the fact that my wife and several of the girls she works with all felt that it was the best course of action surely means something. Anyway, it was my wife that convinced him to do that.

And then, he bumps into her at the store. Go figure. :roll:

But, I guess the moral for everyone is: If you sit behind a cute girl on a plane, talk to her there, or at the airport. He was kicking himself for not doing so.

Gah. If I take this advice it will be the danity little bud that blooms into divorce, but I get your point.

Heh -- alright, so married people are excluded from this moral. Or "involved" people. Or gay guys. I guess it just applies to people who are looking to actually meet said cute girl. :)

Ron Dulin

01-08-2003, 11:53 AM

she could have been "the one"

Her mom could have also been "the one." Her little sister could have been "the one." Any random celebrity could have been "the one." Dude, she was just a hot girl on a plane.

Murph

01-08-2003, 12:18 PM

There are lots of hot girls on planes. This one was apparently something special to him.

Don't believe in love at first sight, huh Ron? :)

Jim F.

01-08-2003, 12:26 PM

I'm still a little shocked that there are people who don't understand why some people considered this a problem.

If they had talked and afterwards he realized that he forgot to ask for her number, fine, look it up. But this was some annonymous woman whose name was aquired through an overheard conversation and a boarding announcement.

A "look" is all we're being given as a sign of interest, and that is a subjective thing. The lady at the Burger King drive thru smiles at me and gives me a large Coke instead of the medium I ordered, but that doesn't mean I should become Jim the Detective and hunt her down (since she obviously wants me).

And saying "He needed to hunt her down because he didn't talk to her when he had the chance". What? You don't make up for your regrets by stalking the person.

Maybe he didn't become obsessive and form an alter where he sacrificed small forest animals to a likeness of her that he carved from a block of lilac soap. But he did methodically hunt down her information, through admittedly public sources, for no reason other than she looked at him several times.

Is it any less creepy that he followed her through the Net instead of through the real world?

Murph

01-08-2003, 12:33 PM

I'm still a little shocked that there are people who don't understand why some people considered this a problem.

I guess I understand why some people might have a problem with it, I just don't think he crossed any lines he shouldn't. Bottom line: None of us know how much of a sign he was or wasn't given. She recognized him right off the bat when they ran into each other at the store, so she obviously gave him more than a passing glance.

It's no surprise that different people draw a line in different places, but I am surprised at how vehemently outraged some people were by the whole affair. I just think it got blown a little out of proportion. It may have been a little bit odd, or excessive even, but not to the point that I think it was creepy, out-of-line, or "stalking."

Is it any less creepy that he followed her through the Net instead of through the real world?

I think so. At least, I think I do. In the real world, I think what he did on the net would translate to maybe following her down the aisle at the grocery store. It's not like he was peeping in her windows or following her for hours/days at a time. (Which he had the opportunity to do, since he had her address for several days.)

And saying "He needed to hunt her down because he didn't talk to her when he had the chance". What? You don't make up for your regrets by stalking the person.

I didn't say he needed, but I don't think it was so shocking, or wrong, in any way, that he chose to. And I don't think anything he did ever reached the point of "stalking." But that's clearly subjective.

Jim F.

01-08-2003, 12:38 PM

I'm not saying your friend should be locked up or anything. I'm just saying that, for me, he crossed the line a bit.

Had he just looked up her information to feed some curiosity, that's one thing, but when he e-mailed her little sister... I think that's where he crossed my imaginary line. For me, that was akin to using the address information to "accidentally" run into the little sister in her driveway and ask her to have her big sister's phone number.

It's all just how you look at things I guess.

Bullhajj

01-08-2003, 12:55 PM

Jim F.

01-08-2003, 01:04 PM

The lady at the Burger King drive thru smiles at me and gives me a large Coke instead of the medium I ordered, but that doesn't mean I should become Jim the Detective and hunt her down (since she obviously wants me).

Yeah, I agree that would be pretty creepy for you to do Jim. If you are ever in a plane, however, and miss a chance to talk to the girl in front of you but you do manage to overhear her name, I think it would be okay to give it a google. Just make a point not to write her minor sister.

It is pretty entertaining to read all these similar stories that, in fact, aren't very similar at all. Keep 'em coming!

Aren't very similar... ok, lets make a very small change. It turns out it was her last day working there and I regret that I didn't talk to her when she handed me the Coke.

Why is it that Google makes it OK? Google simply streamlines stalking. Instead of having to call hte Tax Accessor's office to cross reference her name with her address, Google finds it for you. Instead of having to comb every message board and pray to god that he sister posted her e-mail address somewhere, Google does it for you.

Just because it doesn't take any effort to hunt someone down these days doesn't make it right.

Murph

01-08-2003, 01:13 PM

I guess my thinking is that Google only searches public internet content...And not even all of that. It seems way less intrusive than several other (legal) avenues that could have been pursued in this particular instance.

SpoofyChop

01-08-2003, 01:14 PM

By the way: This whole "sister" thing is a huge red herring in my mind. I don't care whether her sister was 14 or 4. I don't see how it makes any difference at all. Murphriend wasn't interested in the sister!

The issue is the expectation of privacy.

Also, I'm guessing that the most amazing "legal action" that a stalkette would be able to muster would be a restraining order right? That's what it seems to start off with in even the most high profile stalking cases.

Bullhajj

01-08-2003, 01:19 PM

Sean Tudor

01-08-2003, 01:29 PM

Maybe we should all just stick to online dating services where creepy 50 year old guys pretend to be 18 year old females.

Jim F.

01-08-2003, 01:31 PM

Naw, there shouldn't be any legal action. As I said, I don't think what he did was amazingly bad or anything, just....creepy. Not peering in a window creepy, but oddly obsessive creepy.

My issue with the sister isn't that she's 14. She could be her 44 year old aunt for all I care. The point is, when he couldn't get the information on Google he was looking for, he went to a real life source, who was a complete stranger, in hopes of getting into contact with this woman.

I mean, he hunted down a complete and total stranger to get information about a complete and total stranger because she might be "the one!" Hell, he had to use other methods just to find out her name. No matter how you justify it, it's stalking in my book.

At what point would you have considered it a bad thing that he was hunting her down? When he started contacting her high school friends because he found what school she went to? What if the sister hadn't responded, what would his next step have been? Showing up at her doorstep? Running into her at WalMart?

Jim F.

01-08-2003, 01:52 PM

Aren't very similar... ok, lets make a very small change. It turns out it was her last day working there and I regret that I didn't talk to her when she handed me the Coke.

Fine by me. Her name was Luquica. Have at it.

Why is it that Google makes it OK? Google simply streamlines stalking.

You are absolutly right. We should have some laws to protect us against google searches. I am going to call John Ashcroft immediately. I just need to google, er, stalk his number.

Jesus Christ, Tim. I give up. If you can't see anything wrong with it, then I pray the next time you're on a plane, your wife doesn't smile at the wrong guy when you're saying her name. Then again, when that e-mail comes along asking you for her cell phone number, I'm guessing you'll think that's OK and pass it along. Because the guy isn't creepy, he just thinks she might be the love of his life and wants to get to know her.

wumpus

01-08-2003, 02:34 PM

Maybe he didn't become obsessive and form an alter where he sacrificed small forest animals to a likeness of her that he carved from a block of lilac soap.
http://sokaisha.hp.infoseek.co.jp/030108/030108.htm

Bullhajj

01-08-2003, 02:54 PM

I pray the next time you're on a plane

Thanks for the prayers and another wildly inappropriate and dissimilar story. For your next trick, can you please draw parallels between War and Peace and the third Harry Potter book? :)

http://sokaisha.hp.infoseek.co.jp/030108/030108.htm

This thread is bringing out all the loonies.

wumpus

01-08-2003, 03:02 PM

Oolong!

http://www.geocities.com/weloveoolong/poetry.html

Anti-oolong!

http://www.corrode.org/archive/100886796341011.shtml

Gundaliro

01-08-2003, 03:41 PM

Thanks for the prayers and another wildly inappropriate and dissimilar story.

So what would be a wildly appropriate and similar story? Another story where a guy overhears a girl's name on an airplane and contacts the girl's sister, after hunting down girl's information via Google, to see if girl is interested? Sheesh.

Bullhajj

01-08-2003, 04:26 PM

So what would be a wildly appropriate and similar story?

One where the two people who don't meet are unattached and seemingly interested in one another, unlike all but the original story you find in this thread and some bad Meg Ryan movies.

Let me edit to qualify my comments. Obviously I don't think there's anything inappropriate with using your head to figure out who someone is if you'd like to meet them. Now clearly there is a problem if it's an adult preying upon a child or if it becomes obsessive like the Letterman thing. But just to dismiss it out of hand, as if it were always inappropriate behavior is IMO going too far. My opinion is informed by the few positive experiences I had when I was in high school and how I met my wife (we met on the Internet, much like a cheesy Meg Ryan movie I have yet to actually see. ;).

I realize you can let your imagination get the better of you and come up with all sorts of scary (creepy) stories, but that doesn't mean it has to be the norm. Have a little faith in your fellow man, for Christsake.

Mark Asher

01-08-2003, 09:23 PM

Cyber stalking has a certain element of creepiness, but as I was flipping channels last night I saw some reality dating show where some guy told the girl he was with (and hoped to score with) that he once set a woman's nipples on fire. Not only is that creepy, but it was on regular TV and not some cable or dish channel. It was late night, but it passed muster for free TV. That's an extra degree of creepiness.

I do think your friend is a good candidate to end up on the Jerry Springer show, Murph.

Sparky

01-08-2003, 09:49 PM

Nowadays, young women are susceptible to a bit more stalkery creepiness than in the past.
Why do you say that?

Well (and this has little to do with the Murph story), I'm constantly shocked to see the amount of information young people give out about themselves on the net. I don't think they have any awareness of how long that info stays around, or how widely accessible it really is. As an adult, I can decide whether or not to post a photo on my website, or use my real name, post my email address etc. -- I'm aware of what risks are involved. Many people (especially teenagers, who don't have the best judgement anyway) aren't.

I don't think there are more creeps out there than in the past, it's just much easier for them now.

Anonymous

01-08-2003, 10:05 PM

If you want a girl's opinion, what this guy did was CREEPY. Beyond creepy. Even if she was checking him out on a plane, he's still a perfect stranger. Perfect strangers tracking you down and emailing your little sister is totally creepy and scary. I don't care what kind of nice guy your friend is.

wumpus

01-08-2003, 10:14 PM

God, can we let it go already? Haven't the last fifty bazillion posts made the point clearly enough?

Anonymous

01-08-2003, 10:19 PM

You're right, what were we thinking? Let's all go back to arguing about whether or not LOTR is racist.

Bullhajj

01-08-2003, 11:14 PM

I don't think there are more creeps out there than in the past, it's just much easier for them now.

Good point, I hadn't thought about that.

God, can we let it go already? Haven't the last fifty bazillion posts made the point clearly enough?

Yeah, I've read the word "creepy" so much it is starting to lose meaning.

Sean Tudor

01-09-2003, 11:48 AM

Yeah, I've read the word "creepy" so much it is starting to lose meaning.

There you go Tim you just had to mention the "creepy" word again !

I think its creepy reading all the creepy posts in this creepy thread.

If I was a suspiciously creepy person I might be creepily offended.

graller

01-09-2003, 07:13 PM

Sigh - Jesus

Yes you stalked the hell out of her. I am sorry. I have ex-girlfriends in my hometown. I run into them in the store once every 5 years. Your "friend" stalked her house, followed her to Walmart, googled her sister, leached her name over the PA and stalked her. I live in a town of 5000 people by the way. This is the real world - not Hollywood.

Edited due to general incoherence when posting the first time.

Bullhajj

01-09-2003, 07:56 PM

Creepy, creepiest, creepier. Stalk, stalker, stalked, stalking. Creeped out. Creeps. Jeeper, creeper. Google. Creep.

Murph

01-09-2003, 10:50 PM

I have ex-girlfriends in my hometown. I run into them in the store once every 5 years.

Boston is much larger than Tulsa. The odds of running into someone here is substantially better. I admit it was an odd coincidence, but he didn't follow her.

Can we kill the thread now please?

Yes, please.

Oppressor

01-09-2003, 11:04 PM

Creepy, creepiest, creepier. Stalk, stalker, stalked, stalking. Creeped out. Creeps. Jeeper, creeper. Google. Creep.

About 6 years ago, there was this amazingly hot woman sitting next to me on a Southwest flight from San Jose to Los Angeles. I still remember the outfit she was wearing and this rather distinctive tattoo around her midriff that actually worked for her and great, but faint perfume.

Anyway, I didn't stalk her or anything, but two months later I was walking down Westwood Blvd and she walked past me. It was pretty freaky. Same outfit, same perfumel. Maybe she was a fembot or something.

Hmmm... Now I get it... She was stalking me... Dammit why do I always figure this sort of stuff out when it's too late to do anything about it?

Bullhajj

01-09-2003, 11:36 PM

there was this amazingly hot woman sitting next to me on a Southwest flight from San Jose to Los Angeles. I still remember the outfit she was wearing and this rather distinctive tattoo around her midriff that actually worked for her and great, but faint perfume.

Fuck, that's my exwife!

She stalked me in high school until I went out with and finally married her. I dared her to get that tattoo as a sign of her love for me and because I couldn't afford a wedding band. Her name is Google. Google Elhajj. God, this is creepy.

If you see her again tell her I will send her no more money, nevermind what the judge said.

wumpus

01-10-2003, 03:40 PM

I'm on to you ELHAJJ!
The husband of Police Chief Suzanne Elhajj from the town of Paxtang, PA was charged with trading two of her guns for crack cocaine. Some local officials believe the chief knew about the incident and covered up for her husband.

Her husband admitted to trading the guns on the street for crack cocaine.

The chief is not likely to be charged.

Tsk tsk. Selling guns for crack on the street. Next you'll be selling copies of Shadow Watch.

Met_K

01-10-2003, 11:09 PM

I put out my personal information on the internet in hopes of being stalked. I've even gone to such lengths as to start a "blog" in which I play an overly-emotional emo-obsessed teenager who's favorite band is Dashboard Confessional. I also post that I cried actively during such movies as Fluke, which "normal" people don't understand because they lack the emotional capacity to.

I mean, the internet is the best way to meet freaky women who just want sex, right? Right? And there's no better way to meet women who want sex than to play an emotionally-supercharged guy who wears clothes two sizes too small for more reasons than one (I drag, wink wink, nudge nudge).