A Song of Ice and Fire

[John Reynolds]

Unfortunately I think the next book is going to be doing pretty much the same thing, which won't give much joy for those people craving closure.


That's a concern of mine too for the fifth book, but if I get one of two things (Danny landing in Dorne, or Jon waking up one night to find the Others tapping on his door) I'll be fairly happy that the main plot has been moved a bit.

[Hunty]

I don't think it's flawed logic to say that since Song of Ice and Fire got popular Martin has spent less time writing and more time on other commitments, hell he says that himself many times over on his fan site.

The short list of Song of Ice and Fire projects that he's been tapped to participate in or have final approval on include stuff like the multiple boardgames, the TCG, miniatures lines, the spin-off graphic novels and numerous meetings for other projects that never got off the ground or were not approved. This doesn't even take into consideration the HBO project, which he has been involved in from the start, or the increased demand for personal appearances at conventions and literary conferences. Nobody, no matter how prolific an author, could maintain a regular writing schedule through all that.

This is a much better point, and I personally agree. However, there's a big difference between the view that his other commitments result in him having less time to write, and the sneering "he stopped writing this shit four years ago and has been mugging you off with figurines ever since but just won't admit it". The former feels a lot more like looking at the situation and making a reasonable assessment, whilst the latter feels like typical internet dick-waving.

[Jon Rowe]

I just finished the book (like a month ago) but I can now read this thread freely!


Big ass spoilers!


Just a quick consensus catch up.

Arya blindness? My thought is that it is some sort of test/phase of her training, she can only earn it back or something... or maybe she is going to be a bad ass blind swordsman.

Brienne dead? Alive? My thought is that this is the good ol' Martin cliffhanger... he did this in a previous book as well, so I guess there is some precedent there.

I enjoyed the book, (Feast) but it definitely was the weakest one, partially because he focused WAY too much attention on characters that people hate, and characters, while being one of the ones you are rooting for (Brienne) just end up wandering aimlessly.

My friend told me that the Arya chapters were amazing, and while they were good... there were only like 4 of them. Seriously dude... come on!!!

Anyway, looking forward to reading more about my name-double and favorite character Jon Snow

[Bahimiron]

Post contains spoilers, but holy cats, why are you reading this thread if you're spoilable?

Decided to give this series a reread to prepare for the series in April and in some small hope that maybe Dance will be released around then as well. Since I'm already reading a couple of things I figured, heck, why not get it in audiobook form from my local library? 'Read' while I work. And drive. And jog.

I forgot just how hard some of the later chapters of Game of Thrones can be to get through, as Eddard's honor leads him to nail his own coffin shut.

Looking forward to getting onward in the series. I love the characters introduced in Clash (everyone counts Jon and Tyrion as a favorite characters, but I'm pretty sure I'm in a minority in that I fill out my list with Ser Davos Seaworth) and it contains one of Tyrion's crowning moments of fuck yeah, but Storm is when the series gets crazy. Then it's on to Feast which, I am a little shamed to admit, I've still never finished. I've read the others at least three times each, but haven't bothered reading them since Feast was released and only managed to hold me for about half of its length. Maybe the audiobook format will help me get through endless chapters of Brienne doing nothing.

[Tin Wisdom]

I actually have only listened to the audiobooks. They're quite well done, but be warned that they change narrators from Roy Dotrice to another guy for the fourth book. It's jarring, and of course the fourth book isn't quite as good anyway....

[Bahimiron]

I'm not actually a big fan of Roy Dotrice anyway. The way he enunciates certain words and phrases and the pauses he puts in tend to be at odds with the way I read them in my head at times, and while it normally isn't that much of an issue, when it sticks out it really sticks out.

[Lloyd Heilbrunn]

I actually have only listened to the audiobooks.


What else would you do with them???

[Steel_Wind]

I'm not actually a big fan of Roy Dotrice anyway. The way he enunciates certain words and phrases and the pauses he puts in tend to be at odds with the way I read them in my head at times, and while it normally isn't that much of an issue, when it sticks out it really sticks out.

Roy Dotrice totally rocks, imo. I despised John Lee after listening to Dotrice transport me to Westeros.

It is my hope that they have Dotrice re-record AFFC when he records ADwD (and GRRM has already confirmed that Dotrice will do the audio version of ADwD).

[Mike O'Malley]

If he's still around when it comes out.

[belgerog]

Post contains spoilers, but holy cats, why are you reading this thread if you're spoilable?

Decided to give this series a reread to prepare for the series in April and in some small hope that maybe Dance will be released around then as well. Since I'm already reading a couple of things I figured, heck, why not get it in audiobook form from my local library? 'Read' while I work. And drive. And jog.


That's a great idea, thanks. I'm usually too lazy to open a book during my commutes, and it's only 30 minutes anyways (for half of that time it's hard to read because I walk), but it's perfect for audiobooks. Instead of listening over and over again to the same songs, I'll remember all that happened so far.

[Vesper]

Roy Dotrice totally rocks, imo. I despised John Lee after listening to Dotrice transport me to Westeros.
Same here. I'm currently suffering through Pandora's Star read by John Lee. I love the story, and hate the narration. Maybe I should switch to re-listening to Name of the Wind and read Pandora's Star on my Kindle.

[Bahimiron]

Coming to appreciate Dotrice, though he has a habit of pronouncing the same name different ways and man do I hate his voice for Davos Seaworth. Makes Davos sound like a snakey asshole and everything he says sound like it's coming from a used car dealer.

As I listen, I'm remembering how much I came to really like some of the side characters. The Old Bear, the Hound, Tommen and Bronn. I'm enjoying A Clash of Kings if only because it's the book (of the first three) that made the least impression on me, even though I've read it a few times. It's been long enough that I really remembered all the big points in the first and third books, but the only thing from book 2 that really stands out is the Battle of the Black Water, so it feels kind of fresh again.

Edit: Dang, Dotrice was in the RAF for five years in WWII and spent three years in a POW camp. And, hell, he was originally cast to play Grand Maester Pycelle. I had no idea. Too bad he got sick.

[Bahimiron]

Well, maybe he can finally get back to work on the books.


sigh (http://grrm.livejournal.com/192972.html)

Life is meaningless and full of pain.

Particularly if you're a Jets fan.

[Slainte Mhath]

If only he were a Lions fan, the series would have been finished years ago!

[TurinTur]

First spanish teaser. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOq5SQNUCRg
(voiceover by the spanish voice of Uma Thurman, btw)

[Ergo]

Seriously, that's Uma Thurman's voice?

[TurinTur]

Well, it's the voice of the voice actor that is always used to dub Uma Thurman's characters.

I thought it would be amusing to post the a non-english teaser here.

[Lurb]

Seriously, that's Uma Thurman's voice?

Uma Thurman, Angelina Jolie, Cameron Diaz, Rachel Weisz... They all have that same voice here

[Case]

I was checking my open orders on Amazon, and noticed that A Dance with Dragons was listed as shipping on December 25, 2012. Of course, that's after the world ends, so clearly I'll never be able to read it ;-)

[Bahimiron]

Hey guys, George R R Martin announced big news today about what's coming in October! (http://grrm.livejournal.com/195326.html)*

SOME POORLY VEILED SPOILERS BELOW

I've come to appreciate Roy Dotrice more than not, though I still really hated the weird patter he used for Theon. His Littlefinger, Varys and Davos are perfect, though. That said, about a third of the way through I kind of cracked up when I hit on his 'flied lice' voice for the Aastaporean slave girl.

While I remembered a lot of the fuck yeah moments from the various books (I think SoS has the most, starting with "Dracarys!" and going on through Joff's wedding and the touching scene where Tyrion resolves things between himself and Tywin) I forgot about some of the really hard to read chapters. Especially on a second (or fourth) read, where you know how Sansa and Willas will turn out, or just how unbelievably over his head Theon gets and how he completely fucks himself over time and time again with his arrogance. And Robb... goddammit, Robb. Fuck. There's a bit where he says he's made a botch of everything except for the battles. At least he's self-aware.

While I accept the popular theory as to who Jon's parents are, I'm not sure how that helps him. He's still a bastard.

*If you clicked that link all excited, I'm sorry. He got me with his twitter link to it that just said 'Coming in October...' Fucker.

[Jamie Madigan]

I'm just shaking my head over the fact that he still uses LiveJournal.

[jg93]

I seriously will not buy anything with that guy's name attached to it unless it's "A Dance for Dragons."

[Juntei]

Hey guys, George R R Martin announced big news today about what's coming in October! (http://grrm.livejournal.com/195326.html)*


now he's just f'n with his fans.

[Dufresne]

I was checking my open orders on Amazon, and noticed that A Dance with Dragons was listed as shipping on December 25, 2012. Of course, that's after the world ends, so clearly I'll never be able to read it ;-)


now he's just f'n with his fans.

So is Amazon, apparently.

[John Reynolds]

now he's just f'n with his fans.

Had a former co-worker IM me exactly that at work today.

[Andrew Mayer]

Had a former co-worker IM me exactly that at work today.

He wouldn't be pulling that kind of stuff if he wasn't sure that he's about to announce something.

My guess is that the book is already in, and that he and the publisher are figuring out an actual launch date.

[John Reynolds]

Doubt he's actually done, especially since his latest update says something like "back to work, Kong is waiting." But, yeah, he's probably damn close. Or at least I hope so, considering we're now 5 weeks past that Jan 9th announcement, and he lost two weeks to his illness (plus recovery time). Tom Petty was so damn right.

[Mike O'Malley]

Running down a dream?

Last dance with Mary Jane?

Oh! Living like a refugee. Of course.

[Jason Townsend]

...

SOME POORLY VEILED SPOILERS BELOW...

...and the touching scene where Tyrion resolves things between himself and Tywin)...

As Walder would say, heh, heh.


I'm not sure how that helps him. He's still a bastard...

There's precedent for legitimation or for that matter legal bigamy - if any of that were really salient to where the plot goes.

[Tin Wisdom]

He wouldn't be pulling that kind of stuff if he wasn't sure that he's about to announce something.
He wouldn't be promoting another book that he has a vested financial and (presumably) artistic interest in? Sure he would. He might actually be contractually obligated to, come to think of it.

[Coreander]

That's great. Contractually obligated to look like a jackass.

I know what you're getting at, but there is a wider context.

[Tin Wisdom]

Oh I don't disagree, and I'm not trying to be an apologist for the man. I'm just saying that he's been editing anthologies for quite some time and may have contracts he must fulfill regardless of how tardy he is on other work.

In such a case (where you know you're going to look like an ass), you just have to grit your teeth, straighten your long, donkey-like ears, and go about your business.

[Athryn]

Martin puts together great antholgies, so I'll probably get it. Been reading the Warriors one, and it's quite good.

[Bahimiron]

In such a case (where you know you're going to look like an ass), you just have to grit your teeth, straighten your long, donkey-like ears, and go about your business.

I think you're missing Andrew's point, which is that he didn't merely go about his business. He intentionally teased a Dance with Dragons announcement in his tweet and then delivered an anthology announcement. Which goes from something that 'might make him look like an ass' to wallowing in his assdom.

[Tin Wisdom]

Oh. I guess I did miss that, yeah.

That elevates it above mere business-related assdom to douchebaggery.

[Slainte Mhath]

I really don't get the intentional asshattery. I've been a fan, and an apologist, for along time. I was more than willing to wait years between books given all the success SoIaF has garnered and the demands that places on his time (appearances, the HBO show, tie-ins to comics, games, etc.).

But this book is loooong overdue, and he knows it. If Feast for Crows had come out in 2009 or even 2008 I could see "taunting" overzealous fans, but six fucking years is a hell of a long time to write one book (especially a book that was supposedly already largely finished when Feast for Crows was released), and doing this now seems like a real dick move with zero upside.

I'm re-reading the series now, so maybe my reaction is more severe because I know I'll soon be at the same point I was in late 2005, done and waiting ever-so-patiently for more.

[Bahimiron]

It's kind of telling that when you look at his LJ the tag for 'a dance with dragons' in the tag cloud is smaller than stuff like 'minatures' and 'wild cards' and 'nfl'.

[Jamie Madigan]

Guys, Dances With Dragons is never coming out. It's going on what, SIX YEARS since the last book? Just let it go.

[Alan Dunkin]

Yeah apparently six years is just too long. Novels have never come out six years or more apart from each other. It's just never happened. Might as well give up now and forget this ever happened.

--- Alan

[olaf]

Yeah apparently six years is just too long. Novels have never come out six years or more apart from each other. It's just never happened. Might as well give up now and forget this ever happened.

I think book 5 is going to come out but come on, you are delusional if you are not worried about the series being concluded at this point. The gap between 3 and 4 was a stretch. The gap between 4 and 5 is ridiculous. 5 to 6? What are the Vegas odds on that? He lost focus, period.

[Jason Townsend]

When the rest of the series comes out in a timely fashion and is awesome we aren't going to talk to you guys about them.

[Rywill]

When the rest of the series comes out in a timely fashion and is awesome we aren't going to talk to you guys about them.
OH NOES

[Slainte Mhath]

Yeah apparently six years is just too long. Novels have never come out six years or more apart from each other. It's just never happened. Might as well give up now and forget this ever happened.

--- Alan

I would totally agree (with the point of view that novels aren't something you can schedule and that the creative process takes time) except for two things.

1) The last 6 years have shown plenty of examples of how GRRM is easily distracted off-task and he's admitted more than once to taking months-long breaks from doing any work on the series.

2) The excuse used to explain away the gap between Storm of Swords and Feast for Crows was that Feast had ballooned into a 800+ page work, and the decision was made between GRRM and the publisher to break it into two novels, Feast and Dance. The line we were fed at the time was that Dance was thereby practically finished already, with only some editing and a few chapter rewrites left to do to integrate it more successfully with Feast's content. That was six years ago.

I'm sorry, but if you're claiming to have the majority of the content for a project finished already, then it takes you 6+ years to rework that content into a finished product, you were either lying about the content from the start or you simply have not put any decent amount of effort into attempting to deliver said project. I believe the latter to be the case with GRRM, in which light this supposed "Hey guys, something big coming in October!" tease was basically a knife in the gut of every loyal fan, and in very poor taste.

[Bahimiron]

C'mon, Slainte. GRRM said like six weeks ago that he had a big announcement to make but it got pushed off because he was sick for two weeks, so I'm sure that in... wait... six minus two... um... I'm sure that here in the next four weeks ago we will have heard something!

[Slainte Mhath]

Haha!

As I've been rereading the series for the third or fourth time now I'm beginning to think a fun project might be to take over where Feast leaves off and see if I could take over writing the story myself, not wrapping it up quickly, but literally taking over and carrying out the plotlines as they're laid out now and developing new twists, characters and situations as if I'm expecting the series to go one for another 3 books or so.

I could probably write my version of the next book and have it released before GRRM, without even quitting my day job.

[Bahimiron]

I really do wonder about the five year skip. Martin wanted to do it, but then decided he couldn't because it'd involve too many flashbacks, so he just decided to write Feast/Dance the way he did. Which strikes me as lunacy. I tried to read Feast, very fucking little happens in it! So why not do what he did, split the POVs or whatever, but write Feast and Dance so they take place over five years! Don't dawdle on unimportant things, just hit the high points. As it is he wrote Feast which takes place over maybe a six month span, and has since crashed because all of his earlier plans are shot. Now he's admitting that some things will be awkward because some of the kids will be too young to do what he wants them to do and he now wishes he'd started them about three years older or so. Thank God HBO realized this one early. That scene where nine year old Bran skinchanges into Hodor so he and Meera can bone is going to be hells of awkward thanks to this mess.

[erikg88]

I could probably write my version of the next book and have it released before GRRM, without even quitting my day job.
So how long do you think it'd take you, assuming the book would be about 800 pages?

[Bahimiron]

The closest thing we've seen to an update in a while.


Wrestling with a pair of krakens. One almost subdued, t'other still writhing and twisting and slapping me alongside the head with her tenatcles. After them, I've got a wolf to face.

[Slainte Mhath]

So how long do you think it'd take you, assuming the book would be about 800 pages?

Somewhere in the neighborhood of slightly less than six years.

;-)

[Johan O]

You don't have to pause for breath between the keystrokes though.

[sinfony]

Stuff about Bran and his skinchanging...activities
I don't think I want to read Feast now.

[Rywill]

The closest thing we've seen to an update in a while.
I.e., not actually close to done. How disappointing.

[Coreander]

That scene where nine year old Bran skinchanges into Hodor so he and Meera can bone is going to be hells of awkward thanks to this mess.

Did I read this? I don't remember reading this. Was I that zoned out by the boringness of the rest of the book? Was that actually in there?

[Jason Townsend]

I'm not betting on Hodor as a telepathic marital aid. I could maybe see it as an unmentioned possibility Bran was guiltily tortured by when he got older.

Romantic plotlines are of course not the only difficulty with revising away a big time lapse - lots of plot or narration concepts might have depended on having at least a quasi-adult POV.

[erikg88]

Somewhere in the neighborhood of slightly less than six years.

;-)
I just think it's kind of interesting how non-writers imagine the amount of work that goes into a book.

[Mike O'Malley]

Apparently, it's also kind of interesting how writers imagine the amount of work that goes into a book. Or GRRM would have finished on time.

[erikg88]

Apparently, it's also kind of interesting how writers imagine the amount of work that goes into a book. Or GRRM would have finished on time.
I mean, this isn't building a matchstick model of the Titanic, a little project to fill up the spare hours after your IT job wraps -- it's art. Strange to grumble over a writer's timesheets. Guy's not an office drone and he's not doing that kind of work. Obviously he's capable of turning around a volume quickly (2 years for Clash and Storm), but as the series goes on there's more shit to keep straight and more continuity to respect. And wikipedia says it took him 5 years to write the first book, so this isn't unheard of for him.

[John Reynolds]

The first book took that long because he took a break from it while working on a TV pilot.

[Jason Townsend]

Large writing projects gone wrong can turn into utterly intractable life-destroying nemeses that psych people out so badly they can't get back into the swing of things to save their own lives.

People have said that if things are that bad he should just officially give up or hand the story over to another author. An easy thing to say from the peanut gallery, IMO.

I was only being facetious as the fanboi police earlier, but tbh I really do not agree with the suffering-fan-entitlement perspective. I've re-read the books a few times, including recently, and I don't get wound up or angry or hang on the man's every twitter post several years into a publishing fiasco. I prefer to think, gee, I got 100+ hours worth of entertainment for an outlay of $60 or $70. I got a fantasy universe cool enough that I reccomend the series to friends even knowing it may never finish. (Although I take care to warn them of this!)

That earns him some patience and good faith in my books, or failing that a "no hard feelings shrug," not hostility.

[Rywill]

At least in the last flurry of posts, what people are hostile about is more (a) that he keeps saying or strongly implying that the book is basically done (right from the time the prior book was published many years ago) when in fact it's not and he presumably knows it's not; and (b) the Twitter psych-out, which I think even the most ardent fan would have to admit was poorly done.

[Andrew Mayer]

If he's using fan anticipation as a way to sell other products and has nothing to back it up, then yeah, it's in poor taste. No reason to antagonize a fan-base that is desperate to read the next book, and (as Rywill has pointed out) one that has been told time and time again to expect the next book not to take as long.

That said, he has a long and distinguished career as a genre writer. I'm not sure what he's wrestling with in terms of what it takes for him to be "finished", but he gets to make the call, and has to live with the results.

Writing is one of the few creative art forms left that isn't (at it's core) collaborative. It's his vision, he gets to do it his way.

[Slainte Mhath]

I just think it's kind of interesting how non-writers imagine the amount of work that goes into a book.

I know full well how much work goes into the creation of a novel, and understand it is not something that can be hacked out in a few months while working another job (though there are many authors who can and do work exactly like that, though the quality of their work is certainly debateable).

My point is : Six years. This isn't his first novel, nor is it the first novel in the Song of Ice and Fire series. This is a work for which (one would naturally assume) many of the characters, plotlines, locations and other major factors are already either fleshed out from the previous books or sketched out in the materials Martin assembled while writing the previous books. While there is certainly still a lot of creative work to be done, and it is his divine right as the author to completely rework/rewrite to his heart's content, the fact remains that six years is a hell of a long time to take on something that was essentially nearly finished (if we are to believe the author's own words) at the time of the publication of the previous book.

I'm not asking him to crank out a SoIaF book every 18 months like they were Wheel of Time novels (oh yeah, I went there). I'm just saying that as the years drag on, and as a loyal fan, I am beginning to get sick to death of the excuses, the distractions and the seemingly total non-concern he seems to show towards this next novel. This project has become the Duke Nukem Forever of fantasy literature. I'd just like to know why. Is he stuck in the creative process? Has he lost interest in the story and the project? Is there a problem with the publisher? Give us something besides "I may or may not have worked on something that sounds like it could or could not be related to Dance with Dragons today!"

[Athryn]

It isn't particularly unusual for an author to take a long time, it's just that in this day and age of the internet, people are able to band together to bitch about it more easily.

I've been waiting 13 years so far for the 3rd book in Melanie Rawn's "Exiles" trilogy to be finished. She's written several other books in the interim and done some collaborations. So, Martin is speedy in comparison.

[Bahimiron]

(though there are many authors who can and do work exactly like that, though the quality of their work is certainly debateable).

I donno, I kind of liked Carrie.

[Juntei]

I'm just scared the next book, when it's released, will not live up to the hype. Martin has a tremendous amount of pressure to deliver an epic work and he has to know that every chapter, character and detail will be disected and studied by thousands. Maybe the bar he set for quality was raised and re-raised to compensate for the growing delay in publication and has ended up being beyond his reach and thus causing a never ending cycle of delays due to revisions and re-writes. Or I could just be crazy talking

[Gav]

That would definitely be a worry -- look at what happened to Thomas Harris's writing between Silence of the Lambs and Hannibal.

[Bahimiron]

If nothing else, Martin can only benefit from the fact that Feast contained very few popular characters, while Dance will feature pretty much all the favorites. I don't want to be spoilery for people who think even POV characters are spoilers, but looking at the list got me more excited for the book than I had been in some time.

[Timsfker]

Maybe he did finish it years ago, but it just sucks. He knows it sucks, and he's been trying to fix it but has not been able to. The more he tries to correct how bad it is, the more anticipation and hype builds around it due to the delay between releases, and it becomes a vicious cycle that eventually causes him to lose his mind whenever he looks at the behemoth manuscript.

[Mike O'Malley]

It isn't particularly unusual for an author to take a long time, it's just that in this day and age of the internet, people are able to band together to bitch about it more easily.

I've been waiting 13 years so far for the 3rd book in Melanie Rawn's "Exiles" trilogy to be finished. She's written several other books in the interim and done some collaborations. So, Martin is speedy in comparison.

Did Rawn tell fans that most of the novel was written, that it was coming out soon, that it was just a POV split between books?

It's not, for me, the length of time so much as it's the persistent misinformation pr miscommunication.

[Athryn]

Did Rawn tell fans that most of the novel was written, that it was coming out soon, that it was just a POV split between books?

It's not, for me, the length of time so much as it's the persistent misinformation pr miscommunication.

She said something like that, and then there have been contradicting reports that she doesn't have anything at all.

[BigRedCat]

Hey everybody who is up in arms about Martin's "Twitter announcement".

He doesn't have a Twitter account. He only has the blog. No Facebook either. Any others are fakes.

[PapaSmurf]

My son got me a Kindle and Feast with it, not realizing my dislike of Martin.

I re-read it and am still appalled by the drop in quality of writing and the utter pointlessness of the plot threads in it. It's not a horrible book, it's just horrible in comparison with what came before.

Cersei has changed from cunning and dangerous to retarded and unstable with very little explanation.

Brienne's plotline accomplishes absolutely nothing.

The Ironborn are a pointless plot thread other than adding an unnecessary complication to the series with the addition of the Horn from Nowhere.

Only the limited Arya, Jaime, and Sansa stuff has any meaning for me. Even Arya is dragging a bit, and Sansa only teases about Littlefinger's true purpose in these books - a nice tease, but not the meat this book needs. Same thing for the Dorne chapters as for Sansa - just a tease of something meaningful in the background.

[John Reynolds]

Cersei has changed from cunning and dangerous to retarded and unstable with very little explanation.

Martin can't write women worth a damn. Which is why I'm not looking forward to his Melisandre chapters. But in fairness, Cersei was an idiot in the earlier books too. . .it was just that then she had people around her doing damage control, whereas by the 4th book she's now the power behind the throne with no one to minimize her bad choices.

[Bahimiron]

Yeah. I had plenty of issues with AFfC, but I didn't find Cersei's character much more changed than, say, Jaime from AGoT to his POV chapters in ASoS. Without Tyrion or Tywin to hold her back or Varys or Petyr to advise her, the fact that she's basically a complete lunatic starts really taking hold. It doesn't help that the only person she loves has been maimed and changed by his experiences in a way she hasn't and doesn't seem capable of understanding.

Then again, I don't think Martin's that bad at writing women. There aren't a lot of male authors of genre fiction who're that good at writing women anyway, so the bar is fairly low, but I think he generally vaults it more often than he faults it. Characters like Asha and the various Sand Snakes fall into his clear love of dangerous, tomboyish women, with what he might describe as a man's lust for battle, ale and whoring. But while I didn't much care for the character, Catelin always struck me as a pretty well drawn wife and mother whose entire life falls apart around her.


Hey everybody who is up in arms about Martin's "Twitter announcement".


Okay, so it wasn't a twitter announcement. His LJ titles go into the same feed that a number of twitters I follow do. That's my bad. That doesn't really change the provocative title.

[PapaSmurf]

Martin can't write women worth a damn. Which is why I'm not looking forward to his Melisandre chapters. But in fairness, Cersei was an idiot in the earlier books too. . .it was just that then she had people around her doing damage control, whereas by the 4th book she's now the power behind the throne with no one to minimize her bad choices.
I disagree. She was at least a competent schemer before. After all, she arranged Robert's murder.

Now she gets taken in by religious lunatics, and trusts a single source of information in Qyburn.

[peacedog]

I disagree. She was at least a competent schemer before. After all, she arranged Robert's murder.

Arranging the murder of a known drunk - even a King - who likes to hunt and generally chafes at all the trappings of his office is not really something with a large degree of difficulty. She already had everything in place to make an attempt; she just needed the right opportunity. That opportunity was going to prevent itself eventually.

Likewise, contributing to Ned's downfall wasn't particularly devious on her part. Ned Stark is the easiest man to betray in the south.

She has some ability to plot and scheme but she's clearly outmatched in that department by a number of people, and I agree with others that she was propped up in various schemes by a number of factors.

[John Reynolds]

I disagree. She was at least a competent schemer before. After all, she arranged Robert's murder.

Now she gets taken in by religious lunatics, and trusts a single source of information in Qyburn.

You think she acted alone there? Because Varys' conversations with Ned pretty strongly suggested Robert had gotten himself over the years completely surrounded by people who weren't loyal to him at all. Look at Jon Arryn's death and who all was involved in that one (Pycelle, Littlefinger, Cat's sister, Cersei, and probably more).

I do agree, though, that she comes off a bit too one-dimensional, and it's not interesting or fun to be in the mind of someone whose internal monologue essentially consists of roughly, "I am the queen now! Queen Cersei shall be remembered in years to come!!"

Ned was his own worst enemy in political circles. Gotta love the foreshadowing in that early chapter where they find the dead mama warg with the stag's antlers in her throat. Robert killed Ned just as surely as he got himself assassinated.

[peacedog]

Or to put it another way, AFfC was just the Peter Principle at work as far as Cersei went.

[John Reynolds]

OK, GRRM's latest update moves me firmly into he's being a total douchebag camp. I'm glad he's finally tied the knot with his common-law wife of 30 years, but there was no need for that update title.

[Jason Townsend]

You guys need a "dwd is out" red phone or something. The guy got married. That's not big big news for his blog?

Re: Cersei I am of two minds. On the one hand she, Joffrey, Viserys and Aerion Brightfire come off as being a bit of a GRRM character type, specifically the "bad seed wretched sadistic monster" type. Given that most of his characters are comparatively round, that isn't a good thing for them.

As for her seeming dumber, though, it's too soon to tell whether it's a change in the portrayal, a change in the character (downward spiral) or mostly just an internal POV causing the reader to re-interpret a character whose outward behavior hasn't changed as dramatically as the reader's view has - in other words, what happened with Jaime).

[John Reynolds]

You guys need a "dwd is out" red phone or something. The guy got married. That's not big big news for his blog?

You don't think a writer knows better than to use that headline at this point?

[PapaSmurf]

OK, GRRM's latest update moves me firmly into he's being a total douchebag camp. I'm glad he's finally tied the knot with his common-law wife of 30 years, but there was no need for that update title.
I can't believe I re-read Feast.

[Jason Townsend]

You don't think a writer knows better than to use that headline at this point?

Are you getting the title separately from the newspost? I ask non-snarkily. I mean I did go check the site knowing what you'd posted, but for me the title and the post were one big chunk, I couldn't conceive of reading the title, going yay, and then scrolling down.

I'm not going yay until I read "Dances with Dragons is done and being published on x." None of the "big announcement" stuff had me remotely raising my expectations, and I was in the middle of a re-read.

Anyway, I don't mean to judge, I'm getting into Hong/ME2 territory with my GRRM panglossianism. But maybe it'd be better to ignore the blog altogether? No real downside to doing so.

[Bahimiron]

SOME POORLY VEILED SPOILERS BELOW

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While I accept the popular theory as to who Jon's parents are, I'm not sure how that helps him. He's still a bastard.


Whoops. When I posted that I'd completely forgotten that Jon is legitimized by the end of ASoS and at least two lords who were there to sign King Robb's decree saying such continue to be free.

So I suppose that means he's the true heir to Winterfell as well as the Iron Throne.


Are you getting the title separately from the newspost?

As I posted above, yes.

However I was wise enough not to get my hopes up this time.

[John Reynolds]

Are you getting the title separately from the newspost? I ask non-snarkily. I mean I did go check the site knowing what you'd posted, but for me the title and the post were one big chunk, I couldn't conceive of reading the title, going yay, and then scrolling down.

I'm not going yay until I read "Dances with Dragons is done and being published on x." None of the "big announcement" stuff had me remotely raising my expectations, and I was in the middle of a re-read.

Anyway, I don't mean to judge, I'm getting into Hong/ME2 territory with my GRRM panglossianism. But maybe it'd be better to ignore the blog altogether? No real downside to doing so.

Well, there's that split second of seeing the update title of big, Big, BIG news, and then the swift letdown that he finally decided to get hitched. Personally, I would've used a different header there, especially when he promised a big announcement on Jan 9th, then stated why he missed that deadline, and so fans are now expecting the delayed announcement on any day. But, yeah, it crossed my mind to stop checking his damn blog so often, with this last entry it's crossed over into an annoyance for me.

[Dufresne]

Have to wonder why they'd wait so long to get married only to do it now. I mean, everyone knows Martin is going to kick the bucket any day now.

[Juntei]

Have to wonder why they'd wait so long to get married only to do it now. I mean, everyone knows Martin is going to kick the bucket any day now.

think the honeymoon is slowing down the release !

[strummer]

Have to wonder why they'd wait so long to get married only to do it now. I mean, everyone knows Martin is going to kick the bucket any day now.

He needs a true heir to carry on the series once he passes as he can't really have Dragons finished up by his bastard George RR Pen.

This way he gets legally married, has a true-born son, son grows up and finishes the series in approximately the same time frame it would have been otherwise.

[Jason Townsend]

George RR Pen

Awesome.

[Walter Yarbrough]

Almost finished re-reading A Game of Thrones, and I have some updated theories . . .

SPOILERS BELOW

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Although, really, these are just my own thoughts, so not really Spoilers, since GRRM and I aren't BFF

Anyways,

In the various flashbacks and discussions of Rhaegar's actions in Game - it seems to me that the following are true:

1. Rhaegar came to believe that he would become the father of the one who would save the world from the Others in the Long Night.
2. The prophecy said that this son could only be the union of Stark and Targaryen - Ice and Fire
3. Thus he leaves his academic ways and pursues Lyanna Stark, regardless of the consequences to his kingdom, current marriage, or alliances
4. He's incorrect in this belief, however, as Dany is the Fire in the prophecy . . .
5. And I'm betting Jon is the Ice who will join with Dany, both as the Lord of the Nightwatch and the Lord of Winterfell (Who needs a Nightwatch after the Others are defeated, eh?)

[Bahimiron]

Response to spoilers

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Jon has been legitimized by a king. He is the rightful king of the seven kingdoms. So Bran would be lord of Winterfell. If Bran continues to be presumed dead, I suppose it would be the younger son of Raymar Royce that Catelin mentions in ASoS. Once the war against the Others is done and conquest by dragonfire is completed, it's likely the ranks of nobility will be pretty thinned.

Spoilers for books later than the book he was already talking about

I just finished That Chapter of ASoS and I continue to bemoan the many, many mistakes Robb made. Offering Balon a crown always struck me as a dumb move, even before Balon found the offer an insult. Instead of offering a bunch of crafty pirates a crown, he should have sent a raven to Sunspear and urged Prince Doran to reclaim his house's status as kings. Or, failing that, the Yronwoods. Oh well! Hindsight blah blah.

[John Reynolds]

Instead of offering a bunch of crafty pirates a crown, he should have sent a raven to Sunspear and urged Prince Doran to reclaim his house's status as kings. Or, failing that, the Yronwoods. Oh well! Hindsight blah blah.

I think the Iron Islands are viking-ish, not pirates.

And Doran would've gone for that and raised spears? Highly doubtful. And why would the Yronwoods split from the stance taken by Dorne's rulers?

And Jon isn't the rightful ruler of Westeros. Even if he is Rhaegar's son by Lyanna, the Baratheon dynasty (regardless of how short lived) is still in play, so no one would recognize his claim to the throne. In fact, he'd probably be executed since too many houses would oppose a Targaryen return to the Iron Throne.

[Bahimiron]

I think the Iron Islands are viking-ish, not pirates.

Okay?


And Doran would've gone for that and raised spears? Highly doubtful.

Historically they don't care for Baratheons or Tyrells. There has been strife in the Marches for centuries. Just look at ASoS where Tyrell men are telling Joffrey jokes about Dornishmen. They lay the blame for Elia's death at the hands of Lannister bannermen. And despite the fact that the the kingdom of Dorne has been a part of the seven kingdoms for hundreds of years, they continue to style themselves as princes rather than lords, unlike every other great house in Westeros. There's no reason it's 'highly doubtful'.


And why would the Yronwoods split from the stance taken by Dorne's rulers?

The Yronwoods don't like the Martells. Before the arrival of the Rhoyner, the Yronwoods were kings in Dorne. Like the Martells continue to style themselves as Princes of Dorne, the head of House Yronwood is called the Bloodroyal. It also wouldn't be the first time House Yronwood sided for rebels. They sided with Aegon IV's bastards a century or so before the events of ASoIaF during the three Blackfyre rebellions.


And Jon isn't the rightful ruler of Westeros. Even if he is Rhaegar's son by Lyanna, the Baratheon dynasty (regardless of how short lived) is still in play, so no one would recognize his claim to the throne. In fact, he'd probably be executed since too many houses would oppose a Targaryen return to the Iron Throne.

Well would be a pretty bleak end to the series. I bet that doesn't happen!

[John Reynolds]

Okay?

Do you need the definitions for vikings and pirates here? There's quite a difference between the two, so not sure why you'd label them as pirates.


Historically they don't care for Baratheons or Tyrells. There has been strife in the Marches for centuries. Just look at ASoS where Tyrell men are telling Joffrey jokes about Dornishmen. They lay the blame for Elia's death at the hands of Lannister bannermen. And despite the fact that the the kingdom of Dorne has been a part of the seven kingdoms for hundreds of years, they continue to style themselves as princes rather than lords, unlike every other great house in Westeros. There's no reason it's 'highly doubtful'.

And despite all that, Doran Martell is playing a very deep, patient game. Very, very doubtful he would've raised spears just because Robb, a 16yo boy who was making one political mistake after another, asked him to. That sound like a likely ally for someone such as Doran? Sure doesn't to me. And Dorne would've been crushed by Highgarden anyways, and it's not like any of Robb's armies ever faced Tyrell swords.


The Yronwoods don't like the Martells. Before the arrival of the Rhoyner, the Yronwoods were kings in Dorne. Like the Martells continue to style themselves as Princes of Dorne, the head of House Yronwood is called the Bloodroyal. It also wouldn't be the first time House Yronwood sided for rebels. They sided with Aegon IV's bastards a century or so before the events of ASoIaF during the three Blackfyre rebellions.

And the Yronwoods would've done what? Attack Doran in Robb's name? Attack the Tyrells in Robb's name? An enemy all of Dorne is reluctant to engage? Robb's big mistake was not offering to marry himself to Margaery. . .Mace's mom was obviously never comfortable with the alliance to the Lannisters, was not comfortable at all marrying her granddaughter to a creature like Joffrey, and we all know how that turned out. Allying with Highgarden would've offset all of Robb's other mistakes and the Lannisters would've been forced to fight a two-front war they couldn't win. Robb also wouldn't have been so desperate to keep the Freys as allies once he had Highgarden's support.


Well would be a pretty bleak end to the series. I bet that doesn't happen!

Martin has already said he knows who's going to be sitting the Iron Throne at the end, and it isn't anyone readers are likely to guess at. And, yes, in terms of characters such as Tyrion, Jon, and Dany, I fully expect a bleak ending.

[Jason Townsend]

"SPOILERS" or non-spoilers that are spoilerlike blah blah:





And Doran would've gone for that and raised spears? Highly doubtful. And why would the Yronwoods split from the stance taken by Dorne's rulers?

Based on the ending of aFFC I could imagine it at least leading to an alliance of convenience. Or, easily, not, but it'd be tempting.


And Jon isn't the rightful ruler of Westeros. Even if he is Rhaegar's son by Lyanna, the Baratheon dynasty (regardless of how short lived) is still in play, so no one would recognize his claim to the throne. In fact, he'd probably be executed since too many houses would oppose a Targaryen return to the Iron Throne.

Even though this is technically not spoilers a big huge quasi-spoiler tag probably belongs over L+R=J stuff, as I said earlier in the thread.

"Rightful ruler" is a bit subjective - a Stark legitimation for a Targaryen claim, etc. (Not that we can be absolutely certain his parents weren't secretly married, since Aegon at least had multiple wives, and Dany has discussed multiple husbands.)

As for Targaryen support, Martin's left the question ambiguous, but he's definitely taken pains to show that it's possible. Even leaving aside the rest of Westeros consider the end of aFfC.

[John Reynolds]

Based on the ending of aFFC I could imagine it at least leading to an alliance of convenience. Or, easily, not, but it'd be tempting.

That is exactly what I was thinking of when I wrote that no way Doran would've entered into an alliance with Robb. He's playing way too patient a game to reveal his hand--a keen desire for vengeance for the death of his sister 16 years ago, and now also his brother. Sitting in the seat of his own power and with only his daughter and heir present, and the man still leans forward and quietly whispers what his heart's desire is to her in that last chapter. And you guys think that if Robb had made some offer of alliance this man would've raised spears and marched off against the Lannisters and Tyrells? This man who is so different from his younger brother, the Red Viper? No way in Seven Hells. Besides, Doran knows about Dany and her dragons and his son is going to offer Dornish shores as staging ground for her army/camp to make landfall on for their arrival on Westerosi land. All IMO obviously, but suggesting someone with the patience of a Doran Martell would jump on an offer from an untested, green boy of 16 years like Robb doesn't sound too likely to me.

As an aside, the Red Viper is easily one of my favorite minor characters. "ELLLLIIIAAAAA!!!" Man, if GRRM can ever come close to ASoS' quality in books 5-7. . .drool.

[Jason Townsend]

Yeah, but an alliance with Robb and the North was a pretty good shot at getting the Lannisters while the Baratheons were still on the fence. And in a way the distance between the North and Dorne works for Dornish independence there.

[John Reynolds]

Yeah, but an alliance with Robb and the North was a pretty good shot at getting the Lannisters while the Baratheons were still on the fence. And in a way the distance between the North and Dorne works for Dornish independence there.

And the Tyrells are just going to let Dornish armies march through their lands, eh?

[Jason Townsend]

No, but with the Tyrells neutral naval options aren't unthinkable. Robb went after the Greyjoys, however foolishly.

[John Reynolds]

That's assuming Dorne has a navy, don't think it's mentioned in the 4th book. Who knows, but I like my conjectures to have some textual support.

"Tell me, when is the justice going to be served?" Love that character.

[bloo]

Do you need the definitions for vikings and pirates here? There's quite a difference between the two, so not sure why you'd label them as pirates.

Hint: pay no attention their sea-borne plundering natures.

Spoiler: It's the hats!

[John Reynolds]

Pirates are generally private groups engaging in criminal, violent behavior. Not sure I'd apply that to a viking-like culture or group, though, yes, I've read the books and I'm aware of their nautical naughtiness.

[Reldan]

They rape, pillage, and plunder, but I've never read that they've file-copied any unlicensed software. Let's at least get our definitions straight here.

[John Reynolds]

They rape, pillage, and plunder, but I've never read that they've file-copied any unlicensed software. Let's at least get our definitions straight here.

Pirates also aren't a distinct culture, so I think I'm the one being a bit more accurate here. But, hey, for the purpose of being amenable, I'll again agree that they engage in pirate-like activities.

"That name again. I don't think I'll fuck you after all, Littlefinger had you first, didn't he? I never eat off another man's trencher."

[Bahimiron]

Do you need the definitions for vikings and pirates here? There's quite a difference between the two, so not sure why you'd label them as pirates.

Well, since 'pirate' isn't an actual culture like 'viking' is, no, the two aren't anything alike. I was kind of using shorthand. But you've just decided to be a massive douche, so I'm not sure why it really matters.


Stuff.

That's fine. Your arguments for why an alliance with Dorne wouldn't have been a plausible notion aren't much better than why it would have been a fantastic notion, though. And the fact that not attempting an alliance with Dorne lead to a certain someone getting stabbed in the heart by his own man kind of suggests that maybe that certain someone might have done things a little differently.


There is a difference between vikings and pirates!

Christ, I didn't mean to suggest that they were really pirates. Though they also aren't vikings. The vikings were a Scandanavian culture (some of whom were pirates) from the 8th to 11th century CE. Whereas the Ironborn of the Iron Islands are a fictional people inhabiting a small collection of islands off the coast of Westeros. So as we can see, one is real and one is not.

[John Reynolds]

Well, since 'pirate' isn't an actual culture like 'viking' is, no, the two aren't anything alike. I was kind of using shorthand. But you've just decided to be a massive douche, so I'm not sure why it really matters.

Actually, in the geek subculture of e-peen size being measured by knowledge, the person who has to overreact to a minor correction is whom I would label the immature douche. That would be you here. And I love message boards, a simple "nah, those Iron guys are more like vikings than pirates" results in this little mini-drama of hyper-correctness. Good grief.


That's fine. Your arguments for why an alliance with Dorne wouldn't have been a plausible notion aren't much better than why it would have been a fantastic notion, though.

No, they're in fact a helluva lot more plausible and actually based on what we know of Doran Martell. I did a little reading this afternoon and found where even Robb laments not aligning with the Tyrells. Nowhere did I find anything about anyone trying to get Dorne into the mix. Probably because most characters, unlike readers of the series, realize it wasn't going to happen.


And the fact that not attempting an alliance with Dorne lead to a certain someone getting stabbed in the heart by his own man kind of suggests that maybe that certain someone might have done things a little differently.

Correlation equals causality, when will this one ever die?


Christ, I didn't mean to suggest that they were really pirates. Though they also aren't vikings. The vikings were a Scandanavian culture (some of whom were pirates) from the 8th to 11th century CE. Whereas the Ironborn of the Iron Islands are a fictional people inhabiting a small collection of islands off the coast of Westeros. So as we can see, one is real and one is not.

Christ, my first response to you was that they're "viking-ish". As in the author was clearly borrowing from history for this fictional group of people, just as he did with the English War of Roses for the entire series. Oh, wait, I thought they were all real, I just get so confused by words and can't keep it all straight in my head. Thanks for helping me out there, Ser Immature Douchebag.

[Jason Townsend]

It's fair to say that Tyrell land cutting off the Dornish by land made a Northern-Dornish alliance counterintuitive in the limited time that was available before the Baratheons imploded, after which there was very little chance.

But we don't really know much about the navies, and the fact that the Starks didn't consider it a serious option isn't the same as saying it couldn't have been a serious option. I lean the other way.

[PapaSmurf]

Ask Germany how a Franco-Russian alliance was counterintuitive :)

[strategy]

Me, I'm just happy that I stopped reading the books after a Storm of Swords. I don't plan to pick these up until the final book in the series are out.


Assuming it ever gets finished.

[Djscman]

Though they also aren't vikings. The vikings were a Scandanavian culture (some of whom were pirates) from the 8th to 11th century CE. Whereas the Ironborn of the Iron Islands are a fictional people inhabiting a small collection of islands off the coast of Westeros. So as we can see, one is real and one is not.

But the sea-reavers, the Ironborn, hail from an island used to be called Wyk, now split into Great Wyk, Old Wyk, and a few less important islands. Therefore, they are Wykings. Now pretend they speak with an Austrian accent and switch their "double u" sounds for "v" sounds. Voila, ipso facto, quid pro quo, the Ironborn are in fact Vykings.

I thought that was awfully precious of GRRM to name that island Wyk.

[bloo]

But the sea-reavers, the Ironborn, hail from an island used to be called Wyk, now split into Great Wyk, Old Wyk, and a few less important islands. Therefore, they are Wykings. Now pretend they speak with an Austrian accent and switch their "double u" sounds for "v" sounds. Voila, ipso facto, quid pro quo, the Ironborn are in fact Vykings.

I thought that was awfully precious of GRRM to name that island Wyk.

Or he was just familiar with the etymology of the word "viking", which, though disputed a bit, generally concludes it comes from "wyking" (with allowances for transliteration and the v/w issue you mentioned).



Scandinavian pirate, 1807, vikingr ; modern spelling attested from 1840. The word is a historical revival; it was not used in M.E., but it was revived from O.N. vikingr , which usually is explained as prop. "one who came from the fjords," from vik "creek, inlet" (cf. O.E. wic , M.H.G. wich "bay," and second element in Reykjavik ). But O.E. wicing and O.Fris. wizing are almost 300 years older, and probably derive from wic "village, camp" (temporary camps were a feature of the Viking raids), related to L. vicus "village, habitation" (see villa). The connection between the O.N. and O.E. words is still much debated. The period of Viking activity was roughly 8c. to 11c. In the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, the raiding armies generally were referred to as þa Deniscan "the Danes," while those who settled in England were identified by their place of settlement.


The Principles of English Etymology By Walter W. Skeat, published in 1892, defined Viking: better Wiking, Icel. Viking-r, O. Icel. *Viking-r, a creek-dweller; from Icel. vik, O. Icel. *wik, a creek, bay, with suffix -uig-r, belonging to Principles of English Etymology By Walter W. Skeat; Clarendon press; Page 479

[Bahimiron]

This old Variety article (http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117957532?refCatId=14) about the HBO show made me laugh. And cry. Best line...


Martin has nearly finished the fifth installment, but won't complete the seven-book cycle until 2011.

(The article is from January of 2007.)

[rowe33]

It could still happen in 2011 - maybe Martin's been secretly finishing BOTH books in order to surprise and delight his readers with an orgy of Westeros goodness...probably going to announce it on the night of the series premiere, barring medical, wedding, or NY football problems.

[Bahimiron]

CONTAINS SOME SPOILERS FROM A FEAST FOR CROWS

As I finish up AFFC, I can definitely see more where John was coming from earlier in this thread when it comes to the Dornishmen. It really is pretty doubtful that Doran would seek an alliance with anyone, since he's clearly playing his own long game and not only does it not seem to involve friendships with rebels, it almost certainly doesn't involve a friendship with the current ruling house. I still think it was a failing on Robb's part that he didn't seek alliances with anyone except for those he thought he knew (his grandfather and uncle in the Riverlands, his friend's father in the Iron Isles, his aunt in the Vale) and who can say what might have happened if Oberyn were there to receive a letter offering an alliance, a crown and revenge. Still, Doran's definitely his own man and not as weak (or foolish) as his brother's children make him out to be. It does make one wonder what exactly his plans were in the years between the war and the death of Arianne's betrothed.

This does make me wonder if part of Martin's Meereenese Knot involves a whole bunch of dudes converging on Meereen trying to win Daenerys' love.

I actually liked AFFC a lot more the second time through than the first. I still don't think it's anywhere near the first four books, but as a series of vignettes about some characters I like, it's not bad. I even liked Brienne's story, which kind of meanders and goes nowhere much. Its biggest issue is that it starts out with the reader keenly aware of the fact that she's not going to succeed in her quest, but it was interesting to see where she went and how she got there and as her backstory was filled out I came to actually like her a lot more than I did in ACOK and ASOS. Though between her and Jaime, I think Martin may be trying to tease the shippers a bit much.

Jaime's story is also better than it seemed at first, if for no other reason than that it's very interesting to see characters we've seen through one set of eyes seen through another. Brynden Tully is obviously a different man when his favorite niece is the one speaking with him than the Kingslayer, but it allowed an opportunity to round out a supporting character, even if it meant that the reader found serious flaws. Of course, Brynden doesn't know what we know about Jaime and his time with Aerys or how he's changed since being freed from Riverrun (and then having his hand lopped off) so his curtness with Jaime is understandable, though I found myself thinking 'aw, you were once one of Jaime's heroes!' Also, Brynden's assumptions about Jon Snow's ascension to Lord Commander gave me a sharp moment of dislike, reminding me of Catelin's "it should have been you" moment waaay back in AGOT.

I could never come to like Cersei, though. Which I don't think Martin really wanted you to, or at least I hope not, but after his transformation of Jaime in ASOS I think I really expected for Cersei to have a similar change once she became a POV character. What getting in her mind really does is clue the reader in on just how much she needed Tyrion and Tywin and just how in over her head she really is. I can't help but get a little schadenfreude out of the moments when Cersei does something boneheaded, then thinks to herself 'my father must be looking down on me now, knowing that I am his true heir!'. There are moments when it seems like Cersei is trying to pull off some deft manipulation, but then it turns out she's buying into her own bullshit. So it's less a lie and more that she's completely bugfuck nuts. I would pity her, if there weren't so many people around her she's destroying who are more worthy of pity.

The novel's biggest problem (for me) is that it adds a number of new plot elements but hardly anything actually happens. There's very little rising action and not much of a climax, outside of the sex scenes that seem even more frequent in AFFC than they had been in previous books. It's likely that we will be seeing what Quentyn is up to in ADWD, but there are other things brought up in AFFC that just have me wondering if the fourth book in a seven book series, a fourth book where very little is resolved, is the place to start kicking off entirely new tangents. Especially since winter and the long night are coming and Martin himself doesn't always come across as if he knows where he's going with everything.

Oh, and Cersei's little historical detail, the prophecy, just rubbed me the wrong way. It turns her into the Wicked Queen from Snow White. She clearly needed to send a woodsman after Margaery to collect her heart.

[John Reynolds]

CONTAINS SOME SPOILERS FROM A FEAST FOR CROWS


I actually liked AFFC a lot more the second time through than the first. I still don't think it's anywhere near the first four books, but as a series of vignettes about some characters I like, it's not bad.

I had the same reaction on my 2nd reading. Though, as you comment below, the lack of any real forward progression of the main narrative (the Others/the prince that was promised) that's already hung around waiting in the shadows for three previous books is annoying. And it's also my main concern for ADWD, which introduces even more new POVs, so I'm hoping book 5 doesn't just end with Sam seeing snow falling or something like that (as we saw with Jaime toward the end of Feast).



Especially since winter and the long night are coming and Martin himself doesn't always come across as if he knows where he's going with everything.

I think Woolen wrote somewhere that part of the delay in producing ADWD for GRRM was he felt compelled to work out the threads for all major characters for books 6 and 7. He definitely struggled with this, writing several years ago that he had written chapters for book 5 for Tyrion and then decided to scrub them and start over, taking Tyrion in a completely different direction for ADWD. Which struck me as odd for a writer to be doing that for a major toon--his favorite to write--at this point in the series.


Oh, and Cersei's little historical detail, the prophecy, just rubbed me the wrong way. It turns her into the Wicked Queen from Snow White. She clearly needed to send a woodsman after Margaery to collect her heart.

That's the problem with adding an existing character as a new POV, a plot device like that prophecy comes off as very artificial.

[Bahimiron]

the prince that was promised

It's kind of frustrating that the most interesting part of the book to me was the one chapter where we saw Maester Aemon's response to hearing that Denaerys had hatched dragons.


He definitely struggled with this, writing several years ago that he had written chapters for book 5 for Tyrion and then decided to scrub them and start over, taking Tyrion in a completely different direction for ADWD.

Huh. I hadn't heard that. I've read the first Tyrion chapter that he had available on his website for a while. I now wonder if that was an original chapter that was meant for AFFC and has since been scrubbed or if it was one of the new versions of his chapters. I'm hoping for the latter, really. I liked the way in which it was heading. It made sense and also really helped to nail down the motivations of one particularly mysterious character.


I'm hoping book 5 doesn't just end with Sam seeing snow falling or something like that (as we saw with Jaime toward the end of Feast).

If it makes you feel any better, Martin has said that some of book 5 (some people are even saying the second half of book 5) will take place after the events in book 4. So hopefully we'll see at least some resolution of the stuff that happens in AFFC.

No matter what, between Cersei, Arianne Martell, the absolute mess that the war has made of the Riverlands, the disorganized North and the reavers in the Reach, Westeros seems pretty good and fucked. Maybe it'll turn out Viserys was right and the people really will welcome their rightful rulers back from across the narrow sea. Hell, I would.

Edit: Oh, and I never got used to John Lee. All of his characters always sounded the same, Brienne, Cersei, Jaime, Sam. It didn't matter, they all had booming voices and spoke with frequent and poignant pauses. The only difference being Areo Hotah, who sounded like Uncle Scrooge and most of the children characters, who sounded Liverpudlian. The scene where Brienne finds the inn at the crossroads and Pod speaks with the little girl there sounds like the Beatles discussing their favorite part from The Hobbit. I guess I should be glad that if Roy couldn't do one of the books, it was this one. I would've hated not hearing his Tyrion and Davos.

[Jason Townsend]

I had the same reaction on my 2nd reading. Though, as you comment below, the lack of any real forward progression of the main narrative (the Others/the prince that was promised) that's already hung around waiting in the shadows for three previous books is annoying. And it's also my main concern for ADWD, which introduces even more new POVs, so I'm hoping book 5 doesn't just end with Sam seeing snow falling or something like that (as we saw with Jaime toward the end of Feast).

Supernatural menace is such a tricky thing to maintain, though, all the more when the Others take centre stage and the mystery starts to go.

[John Reynolds]

If it makes you feel any better, Martin has said that some of book 5 (some people are even saying the second half of book 5) will take place after the events in book 4. So hopefully we'll see at least some resolution of the stuff that happens in AFFC.

Yeah, I've seen where Martin has mentioned that, but we don't know how far he'll go or even if the post-Feast chronology does anything to actually further the narrative. We'll all find out in (hopefully) another 15 weeks.

[HRose]

NOTHING HAPPENS IN A DANCE WITH DRAGONS, ENDS ON CLIFFHANGER:

http://www.publishersweekly.com/978-0-553-80147-7

First short review of the book. Some spoilers in it. A bit worrying in certain parts as they say the book has a similar feel to A Feast for Crows and not much is resolved, mostly doing set-up for the following book...

[BleedTheFreak]

I'm not going to read that, but I don't understand the problem. Why would the middle book in the series have a lot of resolution?

Besides, I'm not in it for the end of the story, it's the journey that I'm enjoying.

[HRose]

It's a positive review overall. It just points out that it doesn't solve, or seem to move, a whole lot.

Even a middle book could offer some in the way or resolution and being somewhat self-contained, and some similar critics were reserved for A Feast for Crows. The review merely says that most wars and things seem to move to the next volume.

[BleedTheFreak]

It's a positive review overall. It just points out that it doesn't solve, or seem to move, a whole lot.

Even a middle book could offer some in the way or resolution and being somewhat self-contained, and some similar critics were reserved for A Feast for Crows. The review merely says that most wars and things seem to move to the next volume.

Well, to be fair, this is supposed to take place at the same time as Feast does, correct? So if these characters most prominent in this narrative (Jon, Tyrion, Unspellable Mother of Dragons) wrapped up, that would have been a little wierd.

I do hope for SOME answers, like when we found out who really poisoned Jon Arryn, and I suspect we'll get little bits of info here and there, but I wouldn't think we'd get any sort of ending for anyones tale just yet. I certainly wouldn't ding a book review 'score' if it was me for such a thing, at any rate.

[Steel_Wind]

I would point out that to fans, there are many "little resolutions" that matter to our enjoyment, which seem minor and fall short of wrapping up the major threads that are the obvious interest of the more casual readers of the series. We wouldn't expect a resolution of major plot threads in Book 5 -- we'd expect them in Book 7.

What's major to Publisher's Weekly and what's of great interest to many fans of the series is a very different matter.

Chillax. It'll be great.

[John Reynolds]

NOTHING HAPPENS IN A DANCE WITH DRAGONS, ENDS ON CLIFFHANGER:

Except that the mini-review actually says the opposite, that lots happens, just nothing earth-shattering in terms of main narrative. Go back and reread AGoT and ask yourself how much actually happens in that book, compared to how enjoyable it is because it sets the stage for books 2 and 3.

And what's with the caps? Feeling in a drama queen mood today?

[Mouzone]

I just finished listening to the audiobooks in a 100+ hour marathon over the last couple weeks. I loved how each of the characters have there own voices. It's wierd seeing the strange spelling of the names in post when I had mentally just assumed they were all spelled normally.
It seems that the next book will not be focusing on old town which is kinda disappointing. I am interested in the whole technology vs magic thing they are hinting at with maesters vs dragons. Kinda reminds me of that rpg arcanum.

[Steel_Wind]

I just finished listening to the audiobooks in a 100+ hour marathon over the last couple weeks. I loved how each of the characters have there own voices. It's wierd seeing the strange spelling of the names in post when I had mentally just assumed they were all spelled normally.
It seems that the next book will not be focusing on old town which is kinda disappointing. I am interested in the whole technology vs magic thing they are hinting at with maesters vs dragons. Kinda reminds me of that rpg arcanum.

Don't be too put out. Most of the reveal and backstory of the "Grey Sheep" is likely to come directly from Marwyn the Mage -- and that is a character we are likely to see appear in Daenerys' chapters at some point in the latter stages of ADwD. So while the POV won't be in Old Town in ADwD, that does not mean that we won't learn of these things from Marwyn via Dany.

Gratz on the audiobook marathon. Listening to one after the other almost feels like a vacation from planet Earth, doesn't it? I just wish they would pay Roy Dotrice to re-record AFFC. John Lee's narration in AFFC just ruins that "vacation" after 100 hours of Roy Dotrice.

[Cormac]

I just wish they would pay Roy Dotrice to re-record AFFC. John Lee's narration in AFFC just ruins that "vacation" after 100 hours of Roy Dotrice.
Someone mentioned that Roy was indeed doing Feast as well as Dance, so that should complete the set!

[DarthMasta]

If the series is only going to have 7 books in it, I can't see how it's going to end in a satisfactory fashion.

Assuming the supernatural enemy, the Others, are the end game enemy that needs to be defeated, that Dany conquers Westeros, I'm afraid the whole thing will feel rushed, especially since book 5 can't really advance the timeline much.

After pages and pages of Arya running around, Sansa surviving, Jaime / Brienne travelling, somehow I don't think the equivalent to "And then people tried to fight Dany, but they all DIAF, LOL." in a couple of pages will be all that satisfactory.

OTOH, more than 7 books might just extend the time required over any human lifespan.

[John Reynolds]

I wouldn't assume Dany conquers Westeros. More that she arrives during the Long Night and the Others attacking and sacrifices herself saving the continent. Along with Jon and every other likable character in the series, leaving Rickon to sit the Iron Throne since he's the unacknowledged grand master of the only game that counts.

[BleedTheFreak]

...leaving Rickon to sit the Iron Throne since he's the unacknowledged grand master of the only game that counts.

..Hiding from GRRM's gaze...? :)

[belgerog]

I would point out that to fans, there are many "little resolutions" that matter to our enjoyment, which seem minor and fall short of wrapping up the major threads that are the obvious interest of the more casual readers of the series. We wouldn't expect a resolution of major plot threads in Book 5 -- we'd expect them in Book 7.

Yes! In fact, a lot of what I like about the series are all the small stories set in the mid of large scale events. I like the significant events, but the books wouldn't be the same without stories such as Arya's.

[John Reynolds]

..Hiding from GRRM's gaze...?

Heh, that would be a particularly hard scene to write, I imagine, even for GRRM.

I am wondering what the "heart-hammering conclusion" consists of, though. I'm hoping it's something truly significant, like the horn of winter being blown and the Wall tumbling down. Or Dany setting foot on the shores of Dorne (would love a scene with Doran sitting in his chair on the edge of the beach as Dany comes ashore, the dragons overhead).

[Hiredgoons]

I'm trying to recollect a few things without having to re-read the entire series before A Dance with Dragons arrives.

What I'm trying to put together in my mind is a list of players that are playing the long game. Not necessarily the people who might be king, but those who seem like they are better plotters than the rest. So, where have I gone wrong?



Littlefinger - In the Vale, working on getting Sansa married to Harry the Heir, so that by extension he will have control over both Winterfell and the Vale. Has not killed little Robert Arryn. Yet.

Varys - Whereabouts unknown, disappeared after Tyrion killed Tywin. Plan for next move also unknown. Deep down probably a Targaryen loyalist?

Tyrion - I heard that a sample chapter reports that he is overseas, but not sure what his plan for a next move would be either.

Olenna, Queen of Thorns - Moved back to Highgarden, I believe is that last bit that we know about her. Certainly can't be happy with having her granddaughter imprisoned, but what she plans to do about that is unknown.

Doran Matrell - Definitely playing a long game, and was looking to join forces with House Targaryen, but Viserys dying changes that. Now looking to perhaps marry Quentyn to Dany?

And then there are these folks -- definitely clever, but do they want more than they have?

Walder Frey -- I suppose the answer is "yes," he wants more than he has. I'm not certain he is really a deep thinker in the same category as the folks above him on thist list.

Roose Bolton -- A smart man, but he now has the the means to effectively claim the north, does he want more than that?

Pycelle -- before tonight's episode I would not have placed him here. Tyrion does a good job at figuring out that he's firmly in the pocket of Tywin, so not sure that he really is hatching his own schemes. But perhaps I'm wrong about that. You don't get to be his age without being a devious bastard. On the other hand, he just might be really good at identifying which side is going to win.


There are a bunch of characters that are important, even major players, that I think show that they aren't capable of playing the game at a high level. Stannis for starters. Jaime, Cersei, although the former is starting to wake up a bit. No one in House Stark thus far seems able to play the game well, although Sansa, Arya and Jon are starting to show a few signs of getting a little bit wiser.

That leaves me with...

Dany -- definitely a contender for the Iron Throne, but that's different than saying thatr she is playing the game well. Has she advanced her situation because she is playing the game well on her own behalf or because someone else has been moving the pieces for her benefit? So far, I think it's the latter.


And lastly, right now, I don't see anyone in the Iron Isles or in House Greyjoy that either has the inclination or aptitude to play a long game. The Reader, maybe, has the aptitude; and Asha, perhaps has the inclination but I think all of Balon's brothers seem too short-sighted.

Having made this list, I think it's a little ominous for House Stark. That is, there isn't someone from House Stark that clearly belongs in the same category as Littlefinger or Varys. Just watching the first season on episode confirms to me how freaking dangerous Littlefinger is.

[Jon Rowe]

I think that the underlying movement of the books so far has been that the whole game of thrones will be pointless in the winter that is looming ahead.

[Dufresne]

Littlefinger - In the Vale, working on getting Sansa married to Harry the Heir, so that by extension he will have control over both Winterfell and the Vale. Has not killed little Robert Arryn. Yet.

Note that he also has claim to the Riverlands. Littlefinger was given the seat of Harrenhal, and with the seat of Riverrun stripped of its lordship, the power reverts to him.

What we're looking at is Littlefinger working to conquer the Seven Kingdoms one by one by giving himself legal claim to the throne of each of them. However, I don't know how he's going to be able to hang on to anything once anyone wises up to what he's doing. The Knights of the Vale are his only military strength right now, and they're hardly loyal to him.

[gurugeorge]

And lastly, right now, I don't see anyone in the Iron Isles or in House Greyjoy that either has the inclination or aptitude to play a long game. The Reader, maybe, has the aptitude; and Asha, perhaps has the inclination but I think all of Balon's brothers seem too short-sighted.

Euron Crow-Eye said he was going to get the dragons for the Ironmen, don't forget.

Pretty good breakdown of yours on the whole, though.

One thing's for sure, the title of the saga seems to suggest a gigantic ding-dong between the Whitewalkers and the Dragons as the climax of the book, so (since it's impossible to see the Whitewalkers as good in any way) that suggests the dragons will be on the side of the good guys, which suggests some sort of alliance between one of the surviving Starks and Dany. I agree that Doran will probably turn out to have been a key long-game player and will ally with Dany, as indeed will Varys.

At this stage, I've no idea how Tyrion will turn out. I think Jaimie will settle back to family form, despite his recent awakening - which will make it a bit tragic, since we'll have seen a good side to him.

Curious to see if Sansa ends up being Littlefinger's downfall in some way.

[Reldan]

Don't forget the maesters of the Citadel. Archmaester Marwyn has his fingers in the pie, knows more than most about what's really going on, and has trusted people positioned just about everywhere.

[PapaSmurf]

Don't forget the maesters of the Citadel. Archmaester Marwyn has his fingers in the pie, knows more than most about what's really going on, and has trusted people positioned just about everywhere.
Yeah, I'm especially curious about the link between dragons, magic, and the Maesters deliberately poisoning the Targaryen dragons over a century and a half, with the fading of magic over that time. Also, how does Ashai keep its magic? What was/caused the Doom? Are the Maesters inadvertently on the side of the Whitewalkers?

[peterb]

I always assumed that Jon Snow was the long-game entry for he Starks, although he's clearly not there yet.

My long shot theory is an eventual brother-sister (or maybe cousin-cousin) marriage and king/queenship between Snow and Dany, after they jointly defeat the white walkers. The problem with this theory is that it's not nearly depressing enough for GRRM.

[Lizard_King]

Yeah, I'm especially curious about the link between dragons, magic, and the Maesters deliberately poisoning the Targaryen dragons over a century and a half, with the fading of magic over that time.
I had never noticed that detail about the poisoning. When does that come up?

[Walter Yarbrough]

Jaime and Kevan Lannister - Currently sit on the Iron Throne as Hand and Regent (right?) for Tommen Baratheon. Control the Riverlands, Highgarden, Storm's End and the West.

While they are not titular, there is still definitely quite a bit of power there, and in the long game, they are, at a minimum, foils to be conquered, or, more likely, major players.

[Walter Yarbrough]

I always assumed that Jon Snow was the long-game entry for he Starks, although he's clearly not there yet.

My long shot theory is an eventual brother-sister (or maybe cousin-cousin) marriage and king/queenship between Snow and Dany, after they jointly defeat the white walkers. The problem with this theory is that it's not nearly depressing enough for GRRM.

I'm holding out hope that the Walkers are defeated and there is no need for the Night's Watch, releasing Jon from his vows to join Dany as husband, ruling the Seven Kingdoms in peace and harmony.

Oh, wait, GRRM . . .

[Jason Townsend]

In terms of cosmology: Anyone else have the sense that the fire religion of the red priests and the icy badness of the Others and their (according to the red religion) anti-Rhllor god represent some sort of inhospitable extremes, neither very friendly to mankind?

Also, is there any significance to the title sequence of the GoT series representing the map as the inside of a sphere, with a sun hanging in the middle?

[Dufresne]

I wouldn't say Kevan and Jaime control Highgarden. They have an alliance with them that's tenuous at best now that Margaery's been imprisoned, thanks to Cersei. Chances are, too, that Highgarden will hold the Lannister's responsible for Margaery's release, even if they can't do anything about it at this point due to the new power of the High Septon. (Again, thanks to Cersei.)

[Guido Jones]

Also, is there any significance to the title sequence of the GoT series representing the map as the inside of a sphere, with a sun hanging in the middle?

There was a link to an interview with the guy that did the intro on the TV thread - he came up with it on his own, unrelated to any direction from GRRM or the series creators.

[Guido Jones]

Jaime and Kevan Lannister - Currently sit on the Iron Throne as Hand and Regent (right?)


Jaime is not The Hand - Orton Merryweather was the "Justicar" (as Cersei renamed the office) before he ran away when Cersei was imprisoned. Which is where it's left at the end of AFFC

[John Reynolds]

Jaime and Kevan Lannister - Currently sit on the Iron Throne as Hand and Regent (right?) for Tommen Baratheon. Control the Riverlands, Highgarden, Storm's End and the West.

While they are not titular, there is still definitely quite a bit of power there, and in the long game, they are, at a minimum, foils to be conquered, or, more likely, major players.

With a Tyrell army marching on King's Landing, and Randyl Tarly, a Tyrell bannerman, with a separate army coming down from the north. Cersei, queen regent, refused to aid her son's wife's family, intentionally creating a situation where young Loras, family favorite, rides out and gets himself seriously harmed, while also scheming to have Margaery imprisoned. Daddy and grandma aren't going to be real pleased with the Lannisters, so I wouldn't be surprised if that alliance falls apart real soon.

[gurugeorge]

The problem with this theory is that it's not nearly depressing enough for GRRM.

Haha, yeah - I mean, what I hope is that Bran in his mysterious quest north of the Wall will discover the secret of why the Winters are so awful, random and recurrent (some cosmic magic thing to do with the Whitewalkers and the stars) and will do something magic to stop the cycle, meanwhile the Dragons will melt the Whitewalkers, Rob will marry Dany, and everyone will live happily ever after at the beginning of the endless Summer of their mythology.

But knowing GRRM's penchant for subverting traditional fantasy tropes, what will probably happen is that the Whitewalkers will freeze the Dragons' balls off, Winter will be for keeps this time, and EVERYONE WILL DIE so GRRM won't have to write any more of these pesky books that have been a millstone around his neck for years :)

[PapaSmurf]

I had never noticed that detail about the poisoning. When does that come up?
I think it was one of those few useful tidbits in AFFC, towards the end when Annoying Fatboy talked to that rogue maester in Oldtown.

[John Reynolds]

Haha, yeah - I mean, what I hope is that Bran in his mysterious quest north of the Wall will discover the secret of why the Winters are so awful, random and recurrent (some cosmic magic thing to do with the Whitewalkers and the stars) and will do something magic to stop the cycle, meanwhile the Dragons will melt the Whitewalkers, Rob will marry Dany, and everyone will live happily ever after at the beginning of the endless Summer of their mythology.

But knowing GRRM's penchant for subverting traditional fantasy tropes, what will probably happen is that the Whitewalkers will freeze the Dragons' balls off, Winter will be for keeps this time, and EVERYONE WILL DIE so GRRM won't have to write any more of these pesky books that have been a millstone around his neck for years :)

Necrophilia is soooo hot. :)

It comes up, but not sure poisoning was explicitly mentioned. Only that the maesters had a direct hand it killing the dragons off.

[PapaSmurf]

It comes up, but not sure poisoning was explicitly mentioned. Only that the maesters had a direct hand it killing the dragons off.
Yeah, poison is most likely an assumption of mine. It just makes a lot of sense, given their methods and how the dragons kept getting smaller and dying younger.

[John Reynolds]

Yeah, poison is most likely an assumption of mine. It just makes a lot of sense, given their methods and how the dragons kept getting smaller and dying younger.

Yeah, that's a good point I'd forgotten. Considering Sam has no chapters in book 5, I'm not sure how GRRM is going to have the page count to flesh out so much Citadel background and current politicking in book 6 (kinda/sorta hoping he's still not fleshing out his world in the last book).

[Lizard_King]

In terms of cosmology: Anyone else have the sense that the fire religion of the red priests and the icy badness of the Others and their (according to the red religion) anti-Rhllor god represent some sort of inhospitable extremes, neither very friendly to mankind?

I think that's a fair description. The other deity that seems kind of creepy is the drowned god. In comparison, the heart trees and the 7 are a party.

WRT poisoning:

“If I tell you, they may need to kill you too.” Marywn smiled a ghastly smile, the juice of the sourleaf running red between his teeth. “Who do you think killed all the dragons the last time around? Gallant dragonslayers armed with swords?” He spat. “The world the Citadel is building has no place in it for sorcery or prophecy or glass candles, much less for dragons. Ask yourself why Aemon Targaryen was allowed to waste his life upon the Wall, when by rights he should have been raised to archmaester. His blood was why. He could not be trusted. No more than I can.”
That makes sense when cross-referenced with the information that someone else mentioned about the dragons getting smaller and more worthless over time.

[Jason Townsend]

I think that's a fair description. The other deity that seems kind of creepy is the drowned god. In comparison, the heart trees and the 7 are a party.

Yeah. But Rhllor (and by extension, Other-deity) are also religions that probably have some basis in universe-fact. The Drowned God and the Seven seem like strongish candidates for fake religions, and the Old Gods really just have the worship of the quasi-magical children of the forest backing up their existence.

[Lizard_King]

Yeah. But Rhllor (and by extension, Other-deity) are also religions that probably have some basis in universe-fact. The Drowned God and the Seven seem like strongish candidates for fake religions, and the Old Gods really just have the worship of the quasi-magical children of the forest backing up their existence.

Huh. My assumption was that there was a generalized age of myth that the world was reverting to, and this change was either heralded or caused by the birth of dragons. Given that we pretty much know the tree children thing is real, and we know fire and ice-death are real, I hadn't considered that the drowned with all of its story background of an adversarial relationship with storm etc would be in the same category as the 7. The 7 always seemed like a conveniently modern batch that were altogether removed from the older pantheon of elemental and primal gods, sort of a titans/olympus contrast. Or, given the weight suddenly attached to the Citadel, potentially a construct designed to marginalize actually powerful gods.

[Jason Townsend]

It's just my hunch. The vaguely lovecraftian vibe of the Ironborn religion seems a bit of an odd fit for the universe, but that's not much to go on. The seven seem fake-ish and fit the general pattern of making a fantasy religion vaguely like medieval christianity if it's supposed to be fake. Against that the creepiness of the Stranger concept sort of militates against that.

[PapaSmurf]

Huh. My assumption was that there was a generalized age of myth that the world was reverting to, and this change was either heralded or caused by the birth of dragons. Given that we pretty much know the tree children thing is real, and we know fire and ice-death are real, I hadn't considered that the drowned with all of its story background of an adversarial relationship with storm etc would be in the same category as the 7. The 7 always seemed like a conveniently modern batch that were altogether removed from the older pantheon of elemental and primal gods, sort of a titans/olympus contrast. Or, given the weight suddenly attached to the Citadel, potentially a construct designed to marginalize actually powerful gods.
I see the drowned god as fake. He doesn't manifest himself in any way, like the whitewalker guy or undead fire dude. One of the very few benefits of re-reading AFFC was that, on second reading, it was obvious that the priest of the ironborn wasn't bringing anyone back to life. He was simply performing CPR. And he got seriously upstaged by one-eye.

[Lizard_King]

I see the drowned god as fake. He doesn't manifest himself in any way, like the whitewalker guy or undead fire dude. One of the very few benefits of re-reading AFFC was that, on second reading, it was obvious that the priest of the ironborn wasn't bringing anyone back to life. He was simply performing CPR. And he got seriously upstaged by one-eye.

The CPR bit I picked up on right away, but I hadn't seen that as a sign of fraud because I wasn't actively comparing them, just going with "real and getting realer as needed by plot because everything that's magic is a wildcard". But that does make sense, although with very limited information.

[Tin Wisdom]

The Seven seem like good candidates for fakes. R'hillor's temporal power seems undisputed, and the Old Gods may be more subtle, but with the Three-Eyed-Crow, the direwolves and the various coincidental things that seem to happen right after a character prays to them, you've kinda got to accept that they are real too.

The Drowned God is kind of an open question. You've got priests like Damphair who bring people back from the grave, but there is the lingering feeling that this is just medieval CPR. I'd still put the Wet One in the "real" category.

But back to the Seven, you have Davos' experience when he's shipwrecked which may or may not be his wishful thinking. And if the Seven are fakes, you have to wonder why Melisandre goes out of her way to burn their shrines.

[Hemalin]

Don't the Faceless Men pay tribute to the Stranger? If what they do is considered magic, that'd seem to imply that at least the Stranger is real if not the other 6.

[Mike O'Malley]

It's not the Stranger precisely. The Faceless Men roll every other deity into Death and contend that everyone worships Death, but only the Faceless Men are honest about it. It's close enough to the Stranger for government work though.

I'm not completely sold on R'hllor being a "good" deity. Melisandre rambled about the coexistence of shadow and fire to Davos after doing some evil-ish shadowy things, like birthing a doppleganger. She makes the distinction between shadow and true darkness, but it's an ends vs means thing. She does codify darkness/evil into an opposing god though.

The Ironborn gods (drowned and storm) are, IMO, totally made up. Fun, but the storm god doesn't get enough respect.

[Jason Townsend]

I'm not completely sold on R'hllor being a "good" deity. Melisandre rambled about the coexistence of shadow and fire to Davos after doing some evil-ish shadowy things, like birthing a doppleganger. She makes the distinction between shadow and true darkness, but it's an ends vs means thing. She does codify darkness/evil into an opposing god though.

Also there was that time when R'hllor Jesus stabbed Mrs. R'hllor Jesus in the heart. I'd be astonished if R'hllor wasn't bad news in some capacity.

[PapaSmurf]

To me the definitive R'hllor isn't-all-good hint is where Berric Dondarrion tells fat red fire priest that "fire consumes", w.r.t. his resurrections. Plainly spelled out.

IMO the books are going to come down to a balance of fire vs. ice.

[John Reynolds]

So who are the three dragon riders? Most fans would list Dany, Jon, and Tyrion.

[Hemalin]

Ride a dragon? Bran's going to become a dragon.

[Mike O'Malley]

Also there was that time when R'hllor Jesus stabbed Mrs. R'hllor Jesus in the heart. I'd be astonished if R'hllor wasn't bad news in some capacity.
Oh yeah, forgot that one...

To me the definitive R'hllor isn't-all-good hint is where Berric Dondarrion tells fat red fire priest that "fire consumes", w.r.t. his resurrections. Plainly spelled out.

IMO the books are going to come down to a balance of fire vs. ice.
...and that one too.


So who are the three dragon riders? Most fans would list Dany, Jon, and Tyrion.

Tyrion as a dragon rider? Jon and Dany are both kids with rough childhoods, no sense of family, and cast out at a young age. Tyrion's had a tough time every now and then, but he's a child of privilege who killed his own father. He's not exactly on the morally straight and narrow like Jon and Dany try to be.

[Angie Gallant]

Yeah, but Tyrion has multiple dreams about flying on dragons and he's the one who sets every fucking thing on fire. I don't necessarily buy that this means he will be a dragonrider, but they are potential foreshadowing.

[John Reynolds]

Tyrion as a dragon rider?

It's a popular theory with hardcore fans because of his interest in dragons combined with the notion he's Aerys' son (and thus a Targaryen like Dany and possibly Jon) and not Tywin's (daddy says this after being fletched, "you're no son of mine!", and his mismatched eyes strengthen the theory).

[Guido Jones]

Tyrion as a Targaryen seems a bit out there. I'm pretty sure that after my son shot me with a bolt I'd disown him as well as my last words, even more so if I was a pompous ass like Tywin.

[John Reynolds]

Tyrion as a Targaryen seems a bit out there. I'm pretty sure that after my son shot me with a bolt I'd disown him as well as my last words, even more so if I was a pompous ass like Tywin.

Yeah, I don't really put much weight into the theory that Aerys raped Tywin's wife. . .I think that would've been war all by itself had Tywin suspected it.

[BigRedCat]

I see the drowned god as fake. He doesn't manifest himself in any way, like the whitewalker guy or undead fire dude. One of the very few benefits of re-reading AFFC was that, on second reading, it was obvious that the priest of the ironborn wasn't bringing anyone back to life. He was simply performing CPR. And he got seriously upstaged by one-eye.

What about the various drowned characters that are then prophetic, like Stannis's fool for one? I think there's at least another, its been a while though.

[PapaSmurf]

What about the various drowned characters that are then prophetic, like Stannis's fool for one? I think there's at least another, its been a while though.
That's an interesting point, but where is Patches prophetic?

[Lizard_King]

With respect to the god speculation above, I would take a wild stab at trying to think of them in two broad categories, those of particular vs general providence (rather than true and false gods, which is unlikely to be definitively proven without the maesters literally taking credit for making the 7 up) . That is, the Fire and Ice gods have clearly established themselves as using humans as instruments of their will directly, and responding to prayer literally depending on what the hell is really going on with the walkers. Same probably goes for the Godswood deity (ies?) which seems to have directly manifested with the rider that rescues Bran as well as the general thing about the children and the trees.

In contrast, the maesters favor the seven, which are gods more in tune with what we are accustomed to. People seem to pray for them to directly intervene with no result, and that's not regarded as their failure, so it seems people are accustomed to them setting the forces of nature and the order of things and then letting them sort themselves out. These are gods that leave space for science and human empowerment over their own future, at least compared to the extent that the red god or the iceman would allow. Especially now that there's an armed church in play thanks to Cersei's folly, and yet it seems they have gained no magic from it. Instead, it is the fanaticism of the people in hard times that is fueling the church of the seven, and it remains to be seen if that can compete with spirit assassins and zombies.

The drowned god and the stranger, well, that's a whole other mess. The CPR thing does seem like a shout out to trickery or self-delusion the more I overthink it, and I can't make heads or tails of the detour into Fritz Lieber country that is the Stranger's gang of death-persons. It is interesting that the stranger is also part of the seven, though, albeit one that few worship directly.

Dragons are another riddle. Are they a catalyst, cause, or symptom of the return of the gods and magic? Are they a tool for science or gods to fear, in the end? You'd think a fire god would have a lot in common with them, but maybe it's competition.


Tyrion as a Targaryen seems a bit out there. I'm pretty sure that after my son shot me with a bolt I'd disown him as well as my last words, even more so if I was a pompous ass like Tywin.

Still, there is plenty of circumstantial evidence that points to something fishy with Tyrion. For instance, the fact that his life caused Joanna Lannister's death is not necessarily as a function of childbirth, or in fact it could be that Tywin felt himself "forced" to kill her as a result of the offspring not being his. Either way, there seem a lot of deliberate pieces (her alleged closeness to the Targaryen woman (Rasomething)) and the peculiarity of naming conventions (the proper, elder son is Jaime and the younger dwarf a Ty-). Could be a bunch of red herrings, though.

I don't think there's any doubt that Jon is the second dragon rider. I always thought that the arc that Tyrion was following was more of the creation of an antagonist, someone who has been betrayed and mistreated (and made enough fuckups on his own) to be totally alienated from Westeros' hierarchy and order. That could work towards either a villain or a Targaryen, of course both contingent on interesting stuff remaining in the forefront vs the clash of fire and ice.

I'm curious what happened to Benjen Stark. Is it possible he was reborn as the crow-mongering zombie thing that rescues Tarly and sends for Bran?

[Reldan]

I think the Stranger is one of the Seven simply because there has to be something in the religion to fill that role for people to buy into it, even if at the same time his role in things is downplayed and he gets little or no actual worship. It's like if you found out that Satan was in fact a real power while God didn't exist, but it turned out that the entire religion was simply designed to get people to NOT be Satanists - not by denying his existence but instead by providing a safe and cozy alternative (or SIX safe and cozy alternatives) and making direct Satan worship itself a taboo.

I think the common theory is that Coldhands is Benjen, but with GRRM you never know.

[John Reynolds]

I'm curious what happened to Benjen Stark. Is it possible he was reborn as the crow-mongering zombie thing that rescues Tarly and sends for Bran?

Benjen = Coldhands is very popular with a lot of fans.

[Mike O'Malley]

What about the various drowned characters that are then prophetic, like Stannis's fool for one? I think there's at least another, its been a while though.


That's an interesting point, but where is Patches prophetic?

I don't remember Patches saying anything noteworthy, other than going on about undersea halls and so forth. If you're looking for would-be drowned prophets, look no further than Aeron Damphair, who considers himself a major player and accomplishes absolutely nothing. A bit of a Greyjoy tradition, come to think of it.

I'd never heard the Tyrion as Targaryen theory. I don't like it. The Ty- naming thing is just to reinforce the distance between Tywin and Tyrion, another way for Tywin to be disappointed in him. Tyrion is simply, as he says at one point, Tywin writ small.

[John Reynolds]

I'd never heard the Tyrion as Targaryen theory. I don't like it. The Ty- naming thing is just to reinforce the distance between Tywin and Tyrion, another way for Tywin to be disappointed in him. Tyrion is simply, as he says at one point, Tywin writ small.

Tywin's sister even says to Jaime in Feast something like, "You're not Tywin's true son, Tyrion is." And then said Tywin wouldn't speak to her for a year, he was so mad.

GRRM just likes fucking with his readers.

[Greg Williams]

Tywin's sister even says to Jaime in Feast something like, "You're not Tywin's true son, Tyrion is." And then said Tywin wouldn't speak to her for a year, he was so mad.

GRRM just likes fucking with his readers.

I took that passage as her saying "you are a just a good fighter, but stupid. Tyrion got all the brains".

[Hiredgoons]

Note that he also has claim to the Riverlands. Littlefinger was given the seat of Harrenhal, and with the seat of Riverrun stripped of its lordship, the power reverts to him.

What we're looking at is Littlefinger working to conquer the Seven Kingdoms one by one by giving himself legal claim to the throne of each of them. However, I don't know how he's going to be able to hang on to anything once anyone wises up to what he's doing. The Knights of the Vale are his only military strength right now, and they're hardly loyal to him.

Yeah, I'd forgotten about Harrenhal entirely although that was what made the match to Lysa Arryn possible. That's exactly the sort of tidbit I was hoping to pick up. Thanks!

[Hiredgoons]

Jaime and Kevan Lannister - Currently sit on the Iron Throne as Hand and Regent (right?) for Tommen Baratheon. Control the Riverlands, Highgarden, Storm's End and the West.

While they are not titular, there is still definitely quite a bit of power there, and in the long game, they are, at a minimum, foils to be conquered, or, more likely, major players.

I see Jaime as a piece on the board, but I'm not certain he's a major player, since it doesn't seem like he is moving any other piece on the board, besides himself. I know that's beating the chess metaphor quite a bit. So, I think Jaime is a foil to be conquered.

We know less about Kevan's thinking, so I suppose he could be a major player. It doesn't seem like he is inclined to play the game, but he certainly seems shrewder than Cersei for certainly and probably about Jaime.

[TurinTur]

Tyrion as a dragon rider? Jon and Dany are both kids with rough childhoods, no sense of family, and cast out at a young age. Tyrion's had a tough time every now and then, but he's a child of privilege who killed his own father. He's not exactly on the morally straight and narrow like Jon and Dany try to be.

And... what's the relation between being morally straight and riding or not a Dragon??

[BigRedCat]

That's an interesting point, but where is Patches prophetic?

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Prophecies/Entry/1801/
http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Prophecies/Entry/1817/

Talks about both the shadows and the Red Wedding before they appear. Just interesting.

[Mike O'Malley]

And... what's the relation between being morally straight and riding or not a Dragon??

Well, the cheap answer is that characters who perform evil acts generally come to bad ends- they enjoy some short term gains, but end up dying. This argument is weakened by the fact that most other characters do too.

[Walter Yarbrough]

With a Tyrell army marching on King's Landing, and Randyl Tarly, a Tyrell bannerman, with a separate army coming down from the north. Cersei, queen regent, refused to aid her son's wife's family, intentionally creating a situation where young Loras, family favorite, rides out and gets himself seriously harmed, while also scheming to have Margaery imprisoned. Daddy and grandma aren't going to be real pleased with the Lannisters, so I wouldn't be surprised if that alliance falls apart real soon.

Right, but Pycelle has invited Kevan to be regent, after Cersei's arrest. The Hand position is now vacant, but Jaime is de facto acting as Hand/Warlord for that portion of the alliance.

And both Kevan and Jaime have shown a practical approach to alliance building that just may end up saving that alliance, IMO

[gurugeorge]

Necrophilia is soooo hot. :)

It comes up, but not sure poisoning was explicitly mentioned. Only that the maesters had a direct hand it killing the dragons off.

Aaargh, meant Jon of course lol, Jon to marry Dany would be the appropriate fairytale ending, which is, sadly, why it's not gonna happen :)

I'm telling you, everyone's going to die, there's going to be a horrible heat death of the Ice and Fire universe, Winter Eternal, The End.

[Juntei]

I'm telling you, everyone's going to die, there's going to be a horrible heat death of the Ice and Fire universe, Winter Eternal, The End.

I like that and I'd like Rand to balefire his world and eradicate "The Pattern" :)

[Wallapuctus]

There was a link to an interview with the guy that did the intro on the TV thread - he came up with it on his own, unrelated to any direction from GRRM or the series creators.

I told my wife that Westeros was inside a Dyson Sphere and the White Walkers were aliens with huge spaceships and shit and the final books are all about Dragons vs Starships.

[bluemax]

I imagine we'll all be watching the final episode of A Game of Thrones on HBO before we read the prologue of his next book.

This was an excellent prediction.

[Corelli]

He's not exactly on the morally straight and narrow like Jon and Dany try to be.

I really don't think that morality is any guide for who will do important things in this series.

[The Bird Flu]

I told my wife that Westeros was inside a Dyson Sphere and the White Walkers were aliens with huge spaceships and shit and the final books are all about Dragons vs Starships.

That sounds like the plot to a Might and Magic game!

[belgerog]

So who are the three dragon riders? Most fans would list Dany, Jon, and Tyrion.

Would it be silly to suggest Jorah as another rider? If I recall correctly he seemed to be attracted to Dany. Given that he's been helping and traveling with her for so long, I wouldn't be surprised if they marry.

That is, if Dany doesn't figure out he originally set out to assassinate her, which actually seems inevitable.

[Equis]

Would it be silly to suggest Jorah as another rider? If I recall correctly he seemed to be attracted to Dany. Given that he's been helping and traveling with her for so long, I wouldn't be surprised if they marry.

That is, if Dany doesn't figure out he originally set out to assassinate her, which actually seems inevitable.

Err...

Dany knows. Barristan Selmy told her in ASOS.

[belgerog]

It's been a while. I'll have to read a summary before ADwD.

[PapaSmurf]

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Prophecies/Entry/1801/
http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Prophecies/Entry/1817/

Talks about both the shadows and the Red Wedding before they appear. Just interesting.
Ooooh! Interesting. Veeeery interesting. Maybe the old man of the sea is real.

[TurinTur]

It's been a while. I'll have to read a summary before ADwD.

Yes, a summary, that's a good idea. Have anyone found a summary to remember where is every character and what is doing to read just before ADwD?

[Athryn]

Tower of the Hand has a great chapter by chapter summary of each book.

[Cormac]

So what are the thoughts on Nymeria? Is she going to come into play again at a later stage? Will there be some reunion between her and Arya?

[Wallapuctus]

So what are the thoughts on Nymeria? Is she going to come into play again at a later stage? Will there be some reunion between her and Arya?

I'm expecting Nymeria to be some sort of ass kicking seeing eye dog for Arya (who is blind).

[John Reynolds]

I think it's Nymeria leading those large packs of wolves that were mentioned in the (I believe) 4th book. Whether or not there's a reunion, who knows. But I don't think Arya's blindness is a permanent condition, just a phase of her training.

What I don't want to see is Arya reunioning with any of the remaining Stark family, particularly Jon. I don't want them to see what she's become. I know a lot of people want to see this vengeful little assassin, but I think Arya's arc is arguably the saddest in the series.

[BleedTheFreak]

I think it's Nymeria leading those large packs of wolves that were mentioned in the (I believe) 4th book. Whether or not there's a reunion, who knows. But I don't think Arya's blindness is a permanent condition, just a phase of her training.

What I don't want to see is Arya reunioning with any of the remaining Stark family, particularly Jon. I don't want them to see what she's become. I know a lot of people want to see this vengeful little assassin, but I think Arya's arc is arguably the saddest in the series.

On that last bit, I will point out the kinda sweet moment when she saves Samwell from those guys in bravos who were about to challenge him. She's gotten herself hard, sure, but I don't think she's exactly unlovable or anything. She's still just a young girl, and it would be nice for her to find her family, or at least find out she's not alone.

The real problem with that happening, is her story is pretty much over if that happens now. So it won't. And she will spiral further and further from the little girl she used to be. So on that point, you are correct, it's very sad.

[John Reynolds]

On that last bit, I will point out the kinda sweet moment when she saves Samwell from those guys in bravos who were about to challenge him.

The only reason she kills is because she knows her victim is a member of the watch and was breaking his vows. So it's pretty callous, not what I would describe as sweet or heroic.

[Lizard_King]

The only reason she kills is because she knows her victim is a member of the watch and was breaking his vows. So it's pretty callous, not what I would describe as sweet or heroic.

I think he's describing her intervention to save Samwell from the random Bravosi in the street, not her vigilante action later on.

[John Reynolds]

Oh, weird, I only remember her killing the watch member who planned on staying instead of continuing with Sam and Gilly. I last read Feast in 2006 so that's complete news.

[BleedTheFreak]

I think he's describing her intervention to save Samwell from the random Bravosi in the street, not her vigilante action later on.

Indeed. Though to be fair, I'm re-reading it again and JUST read that chapter this morning. :)

[TurinTur]

I'm expecting Nymeria to be some sort of ass kicking seeing eye dog for Arya (who is blind).

I don't see (pun!) Arya staying blind. I think it will be a test of her masters.

[Wallapuctus]

Really? You don't think its permanent? Did you think Jaime's hand would grow back too?

Martin loves maiming and murdering his main characters. That's how you know they're main characters, they get abused.

[Eilonwy]

Apparently a mistake at Amazon.de sent out a bunch of books early yesterday. So watch out for spoilers cause the people who thought spoiling Harry Potter was so funny are probably going to have a field day with something people have waited ten years for.

[TurinTur]

Given the cliffhanger method used in the book, it's very possible. "And at the next morning... she couldn't see! dun dun dun!!!1 is she blind forever or not? Guess what happens... in the next book!"

There was also a chapter ending with the death of Bran and Rickon, and it was fake.

Also, it's not like they cut their eyes, they used a potion. And the faceless men we have known for now weren't blind. And she was having her little ninja training, learning to move and live without eyes would be useful in that context.

[Jason Townsend]

Apparently a mistake at Amazon.de sent out a bunch of books early yesterday. So watch out for spoilers cause the people who thought spoiling Harry Potter was so funny are probably going to have a field day with something people have waited ten years for.

Wow. Epic fail.

[BleedTheFreak]

Really? You don't think its permanent? Did you think Jaime's hand would grow back too?

Martin loves maiming and murdering his main characters. That's how you know they're main characters, they get abused.

I always assumed it was part of her training, or a punishment, and not permanent as well.

[TurinTur]

Yep, i still don't know if it was a punishment or a reward.

Option a) Punishment. Arya killing the ex-Night Watch meant she didn't really left her life as Arya behind, as she promised, so she is punished. Maybe banished from the temple?
Option b) Reward. Arya showing initiative and killing someone who deserved death means a "promotion" and her real training as faceless woman will start now.

[bluemax]

Apparently a mistake at Amazon.de sent out a bunch of books early yesterday. So watch out for spoilers cause the people who thought spoiling Harry Potter was so funny are probably going to have a field day with something people have waited ten years for.

Scans are already showing up on the internet, I highly suggest everyone avoid other forums dedicated to the books if they want to avoid spoilers as people are already reporting having seen them.

[Joe O'Malley]

Yep, i still don't know if it was a punishment or a reward.

Option a) Punishment. Arya killing the ex-Night Watch meant she didn't really left her life as Arya behind, as she promised, so she is punished. Maybe banished from the temple?
Option b) Reward. Arya showing initiative and killing someone who deserved death means a "promotion" and her real training as faceless woman will start now.

I got a very solid "punishment" vibe. She wasn't supposed to be Arya Stark any more. By acting as Arya she earned punishment. Or, possibly expulsion from training and now she's just going to be some sort of menial.

[soondifferent]

I got a very solid "punishment" vibe. She wasn't supposed to be Arya Stark any more. By acting as Arya she earned punishment. Or, possibly expulsion from training and now she's just going to be some sort of menial.

I think b) has more story possibilities though, so I'd go with that.

[TurinTur]

From the GRMM blog i read there will be only a small handful of Arya chapters (Jon, Dany and Tyrion takes most of the novel) so i suppose he will solve the cliffhanger but not a lot more. Will there be a timeskip at the end of the novel? That's a good question.

[Lizard_King]

Really? You don't think its permanent? Did you think Jaime's hand would grow back too?

Martin loves maiming and murdering his main characters. That's how you know they're main characters, they get abused.

I didn't think of it as permanent, either. You may be right, but the impression I got was that it was yet another chapter in his weird Fritz Leibered version of The Emile. I'm hoping the next phase involves waxing a wooden deck.

I would give a lot for a timeskip at the start of the novel, because there are a lot of tedious threads waiting in the wings.

[John Reynolds]

Scans are already showing up on the internet, I highly suggest everyone avoid other forums dedicated to the books if they want to avoid spoilers as people are already reporting having seen them.

I Googled around for a few minutes and had no luck finding those maps. A few links to dead ends, posts that've been deleted from dedicated sites. I wouldn't mind seeing those, especially if they're complete maps of Essos.

[Equis]

http://images.wikia.com/cronacheghiacciofuoco/it/images/6/6f/Essos.jpg

[Jason Townsend]

Unkown?

[Equis]

Ruled by Unkownites for an unkown amount of time.

[Hemalin]

Maps

New: Free Cities (http://i.imgur.com/zI6eF.jpg)

Same as those in ASoS: Valyria (http://i.imgur.com/73fRf.jpg) Beyond the Wall (http://i.imgur.com/ysy2m.jpg)

[John Reynolds]

The fan map Equis posted is really off compared to the scans.

[Hemalin]

I don't think we saw a view of what the Free Cities area was like until the series started airing. It looks like he followed the released maps pretty closely though.

[Lizard_King]

The fan map Equis posted is really off compared to the scans.

Maybe they...uh...used a different map projection.

[Equis]

Damn those unkownites. They ruin everything.

[Tin Wisdom]

Damn those unkownites. They ruin everything.
I'm not so sure.

[Cormac]

It is unknown.

[John Reynolds]

Maybe they...uh...used a different map projection.

Clearly should've used satellite imagery.

Thanks for those links, Hem.

[Morberis]

That's alot of ruins. By ruins do they mean sacked cities turning to rubble or a single important say castle that's crumbling? Like say weathertop in LOTR?

[Lizard_King]

That's alot of ruins. By ruins do they mean sacked cities turning to rubble or a single important say castle that's crumbling? Like say weathertop in LOTR?

Both, I think. The Beyond the Wall map has all of the Wall's old forts as ruins, while the other maps all include places (like Valyria) that I would imagine are more than a castle. I wonder what Winterfell is marked as.

[habibi]

I just discovered this book! And it is not through HBO but through someone's ranting about people spoiling in the QT3 HBO TV Series thread. I was curious enough that I bought the first book and, wow! Where have I been!??? This is the definitive modern fantasy series. It was really griping. I finished Book 1 in less than a week and is now starting Book 2. I dare not read this thread, in fear of spoiler, so, is this a spoiler free thread or not?

On a side note: I thought Daenersys chapters in Book 1 are really disjointed from the rest. It could stand alone by itself almost like a "DLC"... except towards the end and I could imagine how it would matters in Book 2.. but in Book 1 itself, it's so silo, I almost feel I have wasted my time reading it :P

[TurinTur]

Nope, IT'S NOT SPOILER FREE. Get out!

[habibi]

Shit! Goodbye!!!

[Harkonis]

Not going to read a single post, but just got the box set today and starting to read whenever I get a change. I've been amazingly lucky at avoiding all spoilers. I have no idea what the books or show are even about other than 'good'.

[Jason Townsend]

Severe spoilers PMed.

[Jon Rowe]

I told my friend who started reading this book.

"Everybody dies, and it is awesome."

[BigRedCat]

Apropos of nothing, just occurred to me today how disappointed I am that the Mountains of the Moon clans arc has never really paid off. They could still end up with the Vale, Tyrion making good with his promise, but the thread is sort of lost for now.

[Jason Townsend]

Well, how much time elapses between when Tyrion wakes up and when he flees the city? The longer it is the more I see it as a plot problem, since even out of favour Tyrion should want to do something about them being screwed over.

[Badesumofu]

They got the weapons they were promised. They abandoned Tyrion because he was out of action for too long, and no one else wanted them around.

[XPav]

So I'm thinking we should make up some "worst-possible-ways-to-continue-aSoIaF", Darksword-trilogy style.

That way, we can at least assure that they won't happen.

So, here we go:

The Iron Man sail to where Dany is, and use the horn to capture her and the dragons.

<somone else continue>

[XPav]

And for those wanting a summary of the story so far:

http://thewertzone.blogspot.com/2011/06/song-of-ice-and-fire-so-far-part-1.html
http://thewertzone.blogspot.com/2011/06/song-of-ice-and-fire-so-far-part-2.html
http://thewertzone.blogspot.com/2011/06/song-of-ice-and-fire-so-far-part-3.html
http://thewertzone.blogspot.com/2011/06/song-of-ice-and-fire-so-far-part-4.html

[John Reynolds]

Not a bad write-up, I've read the series several times but even still I'm shaky on the lore/ancient history stuff.

[BigRedCat]

They got the weapons they were promised. They abandoned Tyrion because he was out of action for too long, and no one else wanted them around.

I didn't think they abandoned Tyrion. I thought he sent them out on skirmishes before all of the major events went on in King's Landing in SoS. Shagga, Timett, Chella don't get any resolution or even appear since Clash. Again, I'm sure it will come up, but Tyrion's going to be away for quite a while I assume. Not a big deal at all, just when I was rereading the books last year, I forgot all about them as characters, and I couldn't remember where they were left....they're just in limbo, really. With all the random outlaws that appear in AFFC, I find their absence strange.

[Jason Townsend]

Tyrion's conversation with Bronn after he wakes from the battle and his coma:


“I sent Pod looking for Shagga, but he’s had no luck.”

“The Stone Crows are still in the kingswood. Shagga seems to have taken a fancy to the place. Timett led the Burned Men home, with all the plunder they took from Stannis’s camp after the fighting. Chella turned up with a dozen Black Ears at the River Gate one morning, but your father’s red cloaks chased them off while the Kingslanders threw dung and cheered.”

Ingrates. The Black Ears died for them. Whilst Tyrion lay drugged and dreaming, his own blood had pulled his claws out, one by one.

[BigRedCat]

I don't know if you're agreeing or disagreeing or just commenting...but it's still no resolution. I assume once Tyrion eventually returns to Westeros somehow, he's gonna get back in touch with them, but unless DWD progresses things ALOT, it's gonna be a while. Anyways, it's not really a flaw, I just liked those characters and hope they eventually come back into play.

[Vesper]

So how are we intending on discussing the new book here? With a novel so large I'd love to be able to read everyone's thoughts covering the portions I've read without spoiling the rest as I go through the book. Should we consider having multiple spoiler threads, dividing the book up into halves/thirds or something? What do you guys think?

[Equis]

We'll do it by chapter.

We might as well start a whole new GAME OF THRONES sub forum.

[Walter Yarbrough]

So I'm thinking we should make up some "worst-possible-ways-to-continue-aSoIaF", Darksword-trilogy style.

That way, we can at least assure that they won't happen.

So, here we go:

The Iron Man sail to where Dany is, and use the horn to capture her and the dragons.

<somone else continue>

Sam the Slayer is kicked out of the Citadel for cowardice, and killed disconsolately walking down the street in a robbery.

Brienne's corpse is revived by Stoneheart and continues her quest for Sansa and Arya as a Zombie for a half a dozen point of view chapters in slurred hrrrrrrr rhrrrrrr hurrrrrrrrrrr dialogue.

[TurinTur]

And for those wanting a summary of the story so far:

http://thewertzone.blogspot.com/2011/06/song-of-ice-and-fire-so-far-part-1.html
http://thewertzone.blogspot.com/2011/06/song-of-ice-and-fire-so-far-part-2.html
http://thewertzone.blogspot.com/2011/06/song-of-ice-and-fire-so-far-part-3.html
http://thewertzone.blogspot.com/2011/06/song-of-ice-and-fire-so-far-part-4.html

Cool, i am going to use this for the next season of the tv series :P

http://saintgasoline.com/comics/2007-07-23-Spoilers.JPG

[Equis]

So I'm thinking we should make up some "worst-possible-ways-to-continue-aSoIaF", Darksword-trilogy style.

That way, we can at least assure that they won't happen.

So, here we go:

The Iron Man sail to where Dany is, and use the horn to capture her and the dragons.

<somone else continue>

Cersei convinces everyone of her "innocence" and arranges to be best pals with Dany and eventually a Dragon Rider.

The Others turn out to be aliens from another planet, coming to warn everyone of the ensuing entropy that is about to hit Westeros. Hence, "Winter is coming"

Catelyn Stark uses Thoros to resurrect Ned Stark and they proceed to unleash an unholy undead war with the south.

Tyrion ends up in Braavos and recognizes Arya. He tend joins the House of Black and White and becomes a faceless man.