Jordan, redux

[Anonymous]

At the risk of stirring up the legions of Jordan haters :wink: I have to mention that January 7 is the street date for the tenth volume in Jordan's interminable Wheel of Time series, Crossroads of Twilight. Yeah, I'm gonna get my copy then, though I really ought to re-read the last few books to remember what the hell is going on. Apparently folks in Europe already got the book, which released in England in December from what I can gather.

[Ben Sones]

God, I guess I need to read the last book. It's been sitting on my shelf since it came out. I've really started to lose interest in this series... it just seems like it hasn't gone anywhere in the last three or four books. The story reached a peak when Rand first took his Asha'man into battle at the end of... god, book five? Or four? I forget. That was a damn cool climactic scene. I've been waiting for another one ever since.

I get the feeling that Jordan lost track of where this story is going, and since he doesn't know how to end it, he just... goes on.

[Qenan]

Is this the last one? Somewhere around book 6 or 7 I promised myself I wouldn't even consider reading more until the damn series was finished.

[Dirt]

I get the feeling that Jordan is becoming like the Professor in that Michael Douglas movie (damn, can't remember the name right now).

[dannimal]

Wonder Boys?

[Anonymous]

Well, at least he's starting to move the plot forward again...

SPOILERS FOR "WINTER'S HEART"
















In the last book, taint has been cleansed, so male channelers won't go mad anymore.

It was also horribly annoying that Mat didn't make a single appearance in Book 8, and then in Book 9, he's maybe in about 20-percent of the book. It's frustrating, especially when Books 8 and 9 focuses on crap like Perrin trying to find his annoying wife who was captured by the Shaido Aiel. It just reinforces the feeling that Books 8 and 9 could have been condensed into a single book, which would have saved us a couple of years.

I know there are a ton of folks who are hoping that Mat gets some serious play in Book 10, because he's barely been in the last 2 books. And Mat is a far more enjoyable character than Perrin, who you just want to hit with an axe.

Oh yeah, here's hoping that Rand gets a threesome going with those three fiances of his... he did knock up Elayne in the last book. I know that's what everyone is really waiting for.

[graller]

Its not the last book - latest speculation says he is looking at a 12-13 book arc to complete the tale. Winter's Heart made a huge jump forward in a lot of the plotlines...

[Anonymous]

Yeah, this is at best the penultimate volume, though I'd bet on 12 as the series total. I too hope Mat gets more play now--about time to break into the Daughter of the Nine Moons stuff.

[Jim F.]

I've posted this before, but want to do it again for the hell of it...

The Wheel of Time was originally a 4 book story arc that was proposed and accepted by Tor publishing. After the success of books 1 and 2, Jordan was asked by Tor to extend the series past the 4th book. Instead of completing his 4 book arc and then writing prequels (the best path, in my opinion), he scrapped his original blueprint.

You can tell after finishing book 2 that the story was going to be over soon. All the pieces were in place to start the final war. Perrin has the wolves, Mat could summon the heroes of old, Rand took The Stone and had armies at his disposal. Several Forsaken were killed and the Seachan had returned from their exile across the ocean.

Unfortunatly, he didn't just scrap the arc, he scrapped half his concepts. What about The Way? Why are there suddenly hundreds of women who are more powerful than any Aes Sedai (sp) all over the place when Egwene was told she was the strongest woman found in centuries? Why is everyone in the world suddenly able to "travel" when just a year before no one had been able to for centuries? Anyway, I'm babbling...

Between books 5 and 6, Jordan's father died and he descended into a deep depression. He missed the publication dates for book 6 several times and Tor finally got on his ass to finish the book. He fulfilled his obligations when he published book 6, but it's obvious that he was just "getting it done" . Through books 6 and 7, you can tell he was in a real funk and the stories didn't go anywhere (damn Bowl of Winds substory). Book 8 seemed to pick up a bit, and 9 actually moved the plot for once.

Here's hoping book 10 is decent. I'll be doing what I did for books 7, 8, and 9. Me and a few friends chip in and buy the book in hardcover. We then each finish it and pass it to the next person. Gives the rest of us time to read the previous book and get ready for the next one.

[graller]

Jim - not an expert on the topic but there is foreshadowing in the first few books that definitely points to events that happened in the books / stories you claim were unintended. I don't doubt for a moment that TOR and Jordan decided to "milk" the series out and stopped aggressively editing the books he was turning in, greatly adding useless length to the tale but I am not sure that it was done in precisely the manner you lay out here.

[Ben Sones]

Enlightening post, Jim. I didn't know most of that, but the books (or Jordan's approach to the story, at least) make a little more sense in light of this information.

True story: I seriously thought that the books were meant to be a trilogy when I started reading them (right after book 1 was published in paperback). When I finished book 3, my surprised reaction was "It's not over?" At least I know know that I wasn't acting crazy... the first few books really did not read like a setup for a 10+ book epic.

[Jim F.]

Oh, I'm not saying that every side story wasn't meant to be there. There are some obvious storylines that were supposed to be there. The Daughter of the Nine Moons was hinted at, the Aiel, the Asha'men, Perrin returning home and raising the ancient banners, and even the splitting of the White Tower are hinted at in the first 2 books. (a bit disappointed that Mat's little army hasn't been more built upon though)

There are just many sidelines that just seem to have been tacked on. The Bowl of the Winds and Perrin's hunt for Faile are 2 of the long running side stories that just don't seem to fit into the main story line in the least. The Bowl of the Winds is a really bad one, in my opinion. Suddenly there is an every lasting Summer that can only be broken by a lost bowl? That thing ate up a good 600 pages over 3 books getting resolved, and it didn't have anything to do with anything.

The 4 book arc thing is a fact though. It used to be in Tor.com's FAQ page that it was orginally meant to be 4 books long but it was decided to extend the length. Now whether that was Tor's decision or Jordan's is a matter up for debate depending on who ya believe when reading those Wheel of Time fan sites.

[graller]

I agree with you on the Bowl of Winds - I found it really annoying that in the first book they have to traipse to the Eye of the World to restore the normal seasons as we are threatened by a never ending winter and then 4 books later Summer does not want to end either...unless of course this is just another example of the Wheel of Time :wink:

[Anonymous]

Well, I bought my copy today at B&N. Kid behind the counter told me the price with tax without even having to look at his register. He's been selling a bunch of 'em today.

I'll report in as I go along, and I'll make sure to use spoiler tags. That goes for the rest of ya.

[SpoofyChop]

I read books 1 through 4 or 5 or 6...I don't quite remember. But at some point, I just got so angry at the lameness of one of the plot developments that I literally threw the book across the room where it slammed into a wall.

In my opinion "Robert Jordan" made a bad choice when he decided to turn the series into a meandering money tree. It's really unfortunate too, because some of the ideas he had in the first three books were incredibly cool and captivating.

For my money, the only > 5 book fantasy series that is really entertaining is the Death Gate Cycle by Weiss and Hickman. They really knew how to craft an epic story and stick to it without getting bogged down or sidetracked.

[Ben Sones]

For my money, the only > 5 book fantasy series that is really entertaining is the Death Gate Cycle by Weiss and Hickman. They really knew how to craft an epic story and stick to it without getting bogged down or sidetracked.

Lewis' Chronicles of Narnia
Zelazny's Amber series
Moorcock's Elric books
LeGuin's Earthsea books

I'm sure I could think of more. Though I agree that there are a lot of really crappy fantasy series out there.

[gnmarsh]

the belgariad

first four of feists

for that matter the second series of four was pretty good to

[graller]

Thomas Covenant
Brin Uplift Series

[SpoofyChop]

the belgariad

first four of feists

for that matter the second series of four was pretty good to

I liked the David Eddings books when I was younger, but come on. There is no writing in those books. It's complete and utter tripe.

Also, although I thought that the Magician series from Feist was amazing, I felt that the later books were of a much lower quality. Also, I wouldn't call either of those sets of books > 5 book series.

The reason? Well, Eddings wrote 5 books, then decided to write the SAME FIVE BOOKS AGAIN! The "Malloreon" was the EXACT same plot as the "Belgariad!"

Eddings even feels so guilty about it that he has to write it into the plot by having the characters remark that it seems like they keep doing the same things over and over again!

As for Feist, the latter books fell into the "cash in on popularity" category as well, and since they did not form a continuous series, they don't count.

Of course, I'm being totally arbitrary about this since I don't disqualify the Empire/Foundation series for the same reason.

[Tyjenks]

For my money, the only > 5 book fantasy series that is really entertaining is the Death Gate Cycle by Weiss and Hickman. They really knew how to craft an epic story and stick to it without getting bogged down or sidetracked.

SO Mr. SmartyPants, that is the only long series you recommend, huh? DO you see any on the horizon that are heading towards five books that may be worth starting? George R.R. for one? I plan on sticking with it as Feast of Crows should be out in March.

[SpoofyChop]

Thomas Covenant
Brin Uplift Series

I forgot about Thomas Covenant but I also didn't like it.

I can't read Brin. Too boring.

[Sparky]

Thomas Covenant lost me at about the third book. Harry Potter gets better with each book -- I think Rowling can definitely keep the quality up past book five.

[Tyjenks]

Thomas Covenant lost me at about the third book. Harry Potter gets better with each book -- I think Rowling can definitely keep the quality up past book five.

I am midway through the 2nd in the Second Chronicle. I keep falling asleep at lunch when reading it. I took that as a sign and finally picked up Storm of Swords in preparation for the next one.

I read the first three Potter books and just could not take the G/PG rated subject matter any longer. It was fun while it lasted, but I need some blood, death, incest, spying, traitors in my fantasy. With Rowling, you knew there was some earth-shattering plot twist at the end that would take you by surprise, but much of the rest of the story I felt like I was waiting for something to happen. The payoff at the end, while good, was not enough and seemed anti-climactic.

[graller]

I agree with others that Martin seems to be going strong towards books 4 and 5.

[Chris]

Tyjenks said:


I read the first three Potter books and just could not take the G/PG rated subject matter any longer. It was fun while it lasted, but I need some blood, death, incest, spying, traitors in my fantasy.


POSSIBLE SLIGHT SPOILER







You should read book four then, you will get some of what you wish for.[/b]

[SpoofyChop]

I agree with others that Martin seems to be going strong towards books 4 and 5.

Are you talking about George R.R. Martin of the "Game of Thrones" etc series?

I read books one and two I think. Unlike Tyjenks, I don't like too much super bad luck to happen to my protagonists. Martin is just a bit too bloodthirsty and dark for me.

And so far, it's not > 5 books so it doesn't count. :D

[balut]

Bah, Martin is great because he's willing to let bad luck, foolish decisions, and the like befall the "good guys" in his series (and usually results in some really nasty, bloody business). Likewise, the "bad guys" can make out well because they're ruthless and intelligent and make all the right moves (read: Littlefinger).

It's such a refreshing change of pace from typical fantasy where you know all the good guys will more or less live happily ever after simply because they're the heroes.

[Anonymous]

Exactly. Try to play it good and "honorable" in The Game of Thrones, and you'll most likely end up with your head on a stake.

Littlefinger actually has a massive fanbase because he's the bastard who will literally do anything to win. In fact, there's a considerable belief going that he's going to be one who survives the entire series and comes out on top, though I think his fate will be actually grizzlier that most.

I like Wheel of Time. I'll stick with it, especially now that it appears to be moving along again.

But. I. Cannot. Wait. For. Book. 4. From. George. Martin.

I was at my university's bookstore the other day, and even the cute bookseller working the fantasy section and I traded theories and thoughts about what's going to happen next.

[Union Carbide]

. . .I think his fate will be actually grizzlier that most.

He's going to be eaten by bears? That would be a grisly way to go! :D

[gnmarsh]

the second series was called the serpent war saga. I thought it was better then the first.

As far as eddings goes, the first five were amazing. The second not so much, though the payoff at the end wasn't bad.

Martin is the best out there at present IMHO though.

[Drunkagain]

How about Janny Wurts, Wars of Light and Shadow series? Anybody else read any of these? For the most part I would say the books have been fairly good. A bit long winded in parts but overall I've enjoyed the series. My biggest gripe is that like Jordan, it dosen't really seem as if the story has moved along much in the last couple of books.

[graller]

Just to reassure you all - I am 250 pages in and the suck has returned full force. Nothing has happened other then various men failing to understand how to deal with the women in their lives. Painful, Painful Painful.

[SpoofyChop]

the suck has returned full force...Painful, Painful Painful.

This would make an excellent back cover quote.

Anyway...I am so not shocked by this. Jordan needs to get a team of editors and a couple ghost writers. Like I said, some of the ideas are fantastic, but the series is out of control. Somebody should do an intervention.

[graller]

I had my hopes raised by Winter Heart that someone had grabbed him by the balls and pointed him to the end of the story but clearly they have unclenched.

[Anonymous]

Yeah, I'm over a third of the way through the friggin book, and all we're doing is repeating the day that Rand cleansed the taint but from different perspectives.

Just how much fucking longer is it going to take Elayne to secure her throne? This plot has run over 3 books now, and in the early books, it would have been condensed to 1 book.

And Perrin is still fucking trying to rescue his wife, who was kidnapped in Book 8.

Where the hell is Egwene and her Army? They've been supposedly laying siege to Tar Valon for the last 2 books, but they still haven't made an appearance.

And we still haven't even seen Rand yet.

I'm really getting nervous, because I'm nearing the halfway point, and I'm still waiting for the damn thing to move forward.


Garrrrr... My only hope is that things really kickstart once everything is in place.

[Tyjenks]

Just how much fucking longer is it going to take Elayne to secure her throne? This plot has run over 3 books now, and in the early books, it would have been condensed to 1 book.

And Perrin is still fucking trying to rescue his wife, who was kidnapped in Book 8.

Where the hell is Egwene and her Army? They've been supposedly laying siege to Tar Valon for the last 2 books, but they still haven't made an appearance.

And we still haven't even seen Rand yet.

Heyyy!!! Where's the spoiler alert? I was going to start the series, but not now. :wink:

Tyjenks, loving every page of Storm of Swords.

[graller]

Ugh - Having now finished the book all I can say is this is a throwback to the crap that is Fires of Heaven/Crown of Swords. 600+ pages and by my count over 300 were dedicated to describing clothing, with an additional 300 dedicated to women lamenting they don't understand men and men lamenting they don't get women. This left about 75 pages of actual plot advancement. I went back and reread Winter's Heart just to confirm again that it seemed Jordan had escaped his funk there and it was true. But man did he get it back again here.

Spoiler Below!















Mat and Tuon was fun - especially the second sequence.

Was there any point to the chapters dedicated to Elayne's pregnancy? Nothing happened at all in that entire section to my eye.

The same for Egwene - they could have just had the one chapter she gets captured in and it would have made sense to the plot and not been incredibly boring.

We got no POV's of any of our favorite Chosen excepting Alvairin.

Perrin's chapters were yet another complete waste. Why did we care about a ghost town or where he got food. Again the last chapter with the torture sequence and the introduction of Tallanvor and the Seanchan was the only thing of interest...isn't it nice to know Faile is wearing the white and doing laundry!

Sigh

I keep reading this because I got sucked in by the early 4 books which were good and the fact that now you want to see how it ends. And WH gave me hope he was ramming forward.....COT is bad enough that I may finally quit on the series.

[balut]

The first step on the road to recovery is admitting you have a problem. Here, have a George R. R. Martin book.

[Tyjenks]

The first step on the road to recovery is admitting you have a problem. Here, have a George R. R. Martin book.

Hey balut, go straighten Dr. Crypt out on Martin. I am sure you would do a better job than I would. The best defense I can come up with is, "His stories are neato."

[graller]

I have read all the Martin books. Feast of Crows can't come soon enough.

[Anonymous]

I just finished it today. Took about 2 weeks, but I really paced myself because I'm kinda getting sick of having to wait 2 years for each book and then reading it in a couple of nights.


SPOILERS












In summary: the first 3/4 are complete and total suckage. I can't believe that by the end of the book, Perrin is *still* trying to fucking rescue his wife (how fucking long has this plot been going?), Egwene is *still* trying to take Tar Valon, the Aes Sedai in the White Tower are *still* trying to hunt down Black Ajah members, Elayne is *still* trying to secure her throne, etc, etc, etc.

Rand is *barely* in this book at all. And all the really good shit being hinted at in this book doesn't come to fruition: we have to wait for the next book. Well, hopefully just the next book.

Like Min's viewing of Davram Bashere indicating something bad may happen to him, or that he may do something rather unexpected.

And "the third attack option" that Rand and Bashere discuss that is being prepared.

Or the Seanchen readying an aeria sneak attack against the White Tower.

And what the fuck is it with the dead spirits roaming around all the sudden?

And when will he *finally* tell us the secret history of the White Tower that's been hinted at for, arghhhh, the past 4 or 5 books. Ever since Cadsume appeared. Something about a major civil war amongst the Aes Sedai that was covered up and forgotten, I'm guessing at. Garrrrr... just get to the fucking point already.

I can't believe that this book is only about 700 pages long, which is kinda short for Jordan. That he ends it in a "cliffhanger" with Egwene being captured just drives me crazy. We wouldn't need a cliffhanger ending if he didn't dick around so much with the first half of the book.

It's almost bullshit, I tell you. I wouldn't mind all the obsessive amount of detail he's throwing in if he could churn out a book a year, but waiting 2 years for this is mind-numbing. The entire first 3/4 of this book goes nowhere. It's wasted on minutia about what each character is wearing (by the way, there are way too many fucking characters at this point. I've lost count of how many different Aes Sedai there are, and it doesn't help that they all have similar names: Leane, Lelaine, etc. Then there are the different Asha'Man, the various nobles from different countries, the Aiel Wise Ones, the Seanchen, etc, etc, etc.)

I do get the feeling that everything is being maneuvered for the final battle... all the armies are slowly being positioned. But hurry the fuck up already. I can't see him ending this series in 13 or 14 books if this glacial pace returns in Book 11.

By the way, does anyone know when the first book was published? Because it seems that he was able to keep up a much faster pace writing and releasing the first 5 or 6 books than he has with the last 3 or 4 books.

[graller]

Eye of the Dragon was published in 89/90. The follow up was like 9-10 months later and The Dragon Reborn a year later. He maintained roughly a book a year pace till around Lord of Chaos at which point he started going one every other or so. If I have to read one more sentence about how much cleavage so and so is showing over her embroidered gown I am going to heave. Weren't the weevils scary?

[balut]

Bah. Fuck Robert Jordan.

[Qenan]

I read books one and two I think. Unlike Tyjenks, I don't like too much super bad luck to happen to my protagonists. Martin is just a bit too bloodthirsty and dark for me.

And so far, it's not > 5 books so it doesn't count. :D

Martin doesn't pull his punches, which makes the stories more plausible. He can also write, which seems rare in fantasy/science fiction.

I love Jordan's first two books. It was a terrible decision (artistically) to extend the series.