40,000 mile tune up

[Bullhajj]

Having never owned a new car before, I wanted to ask what you guys do. We bought a Jetta a few years back and have been mostly happy with it. I've been keeping the maintenance up. But now we're at 40k miles and they say it needs a ~$500 tune up. It's running fine, so I am wondering if it's worth it. I realize you have to maintain the car, but I just wonder if it's not overkill to sink that much money into something if it's not broken. What do you guys do?

[chet]

Our last leased car (honda civic), we put on 45,000 miles in 4 years. We never once so much as changed the oil. It ran as well on the day we turned it in as it did in the day we picked it up. With our new car i change the oil every 10-15,000 miles, but i tend to think the rest is a crock.

Chet

[Daly]

What exactly do they call a "tune up"? What engine is it?

They could be talking about changing the timing belt and that can be pricey enough. Depending on your engine you could be coming into the service interval for the belt. At 40,000 miles that wouldn't be uncommon. If they're not talking about that and there are no other specific repairs to be made to the car then they're probably just talking crap.

[Jakub]

Timing belts don't happen at 40k.

Check your owner's manual, it should say exactly what's involved. A lot of it will be fluff.

[Daly]

Timing belts don't happen at 40k.

Don't be so quick to dismiss it. We still don't know what this "tune up" is. Manufacturers vary wildly on timing belt intervals. Lexus apparently say 120,000 for some of their cars, BMW say 50,000 for some of theirs. I know some VW engines are up around 55. Which is why I asked what engine in particular this one was.

But yeah, the service interval indicator in the owners manual should tell you what's going on, with some fluff added.

[Jason McCullough]

Look at the check list; it's 90% bullshit.

[Sean Hargraves]

I have a Del Sol with over 207,000 miles on it. I change the oil on a semi-regular basis and it runs fine. No tune ups.

[Nick Walter]

In car parlance, a "tune-up" is usually an adjustment of engine timing, a check on all belts, a replacement of spark plugs (and possibly plug wires), an oil change, and possibly various filter changes.

With the exception of the oil change, none of these things really *need* to be done, but skipping them increases the risk that your car will one day begin to malfunction and need one of those things done before it will run properly again.

Also, is that $500 dealer pricing? If so you can take the same checklist of items to check to a local non-dealer mechanic and have the same stuff done for probably $200-$300.

[Joel]

Don't listen to these people dismissing it out of hand. While a lot of the dealer-recommended stuff is bullshit (door lock oil), some stuff is absolutely critical if you want to get the full life out of your car. That said, going to the dealer to get the recommended tune-up can be ridiculous, since they will often give you static if you choose not to do the 'full package.'

If you'd like to list what your owners' manual suggests, I'd be happy to help you pick out what is necessary. Car maintence is critical, though, if you want to get 200-300k miles out of your car (and want the car to be in top shape through most of that time).

[Chris Nahr]

There's also the question if you have a warranty that depends on regular check-ups. Also, if you ever want to resell your car you're going to get a better price if your owner's booklet shows regular service.

[Bill Dungsroman]

I thought 30K was the big tune-up. It was for my XTerra, anyway (maybe it's an SUV thing).

I went for it because I plan to buy a new car and keep the XTerra forever, so I'd like it to last. If you intend on trading in your car in 4-8 years, I seriously doubt those tune-ups are necessary to keep the car running for that period of time.

[beecubed]

Our last leased car (honda civic), we put on 45,000 miles in 4 years. We never once so much as changed the oil. It ran as well on the day we turned it in as it did in the day we picked it up. With our new car i change the oil every 10-15,000 miles, but i tend to think the rest is a crock.

Chet

holy crap. i can definitely tell when my oil needs changed. my engine gets a little sluggish and starts to sound a little harsher.

[Bullhajj]

Hey, thanks guys. I went over the local service station and they say they can almost always beat the price of the dealer. They looked up my car (2002 Jetta GL wagon, gas) and gave me this list of items for 40k:

inspect automatic shift lock
inspect battery fluid level
inspect belts (1)
inspect brake system
inspect cooling system
inspect driveshaft boots
insepct electrical system
inspect engine for leaks
inspect exhaust system
inspect front axel
inspect headlights
inspect manual transaxle fluid
inspect onboard diagnostics
inspect power steering fluid
inspect windshiedl wiper and washer system
lube hinges and checks
replace air cleaner or element
replace dust pollen filter (2)
replace engine oil
replace engine oil filter
replace spark plugs
rotate tires

I am thinking each of those inspections is what casuses the price to be so high at the dealer. Honestly it's hard to understand why it should cost $500. I think we'll just do the oil and filter and possibly the plugs.

[Jakub]

Actually, I'd check your CV boots as well, since your car is FWD. Get your air filter replaced for sure, and since you own a Volkswagen, it's a good idea to get your electrical system checked.

[Joel]

The reason it costs so much at the dealership is because those guys are used to being the experts and charge a price to match it. It's like sending your PC into Dell just to check it out--they'll probably do a pretty great job, but not necessarily one that's worth a 50- to 100-percent premium.

But tuning up your car is a totally rational and necessary thing to do, if you have any concern about maintaining its level of performance and, to a lesser extent, its value. I know cars have become essentially disposible, but so have computers--that doesn't mean you shouldn't defragment the hard drive from time to time.

Jakub is absolutely right about the electrical system, too. VW's have a long history of shoddy electrical work, despite an otherwise high-level of overall craftmanship.

So yes, get your oil changed, your oil and air filters replaced, as well as topping off any fluids that might need it (they'll be able to easily tell what needs to be done). A good mechanic can point out potential problems before that start but still allow you to make your own decision, such as pointing out that your belts are worn, but that they should be able to make it another 10,000 miles.

You are doing regular oil changes and such, too, right? Most modern cars can go something like 10,000 miles between oil changes, but there's nothing wrong with doing it more frequently (I tend to own imports, but still change my oil between 3k and 5k depending on how hard the car has been driven).

Unlike a computer, cars can't be reformated and reinstalled, so taking care of little issues (such as a slightly torn CV boot) early can help prevent bigger issues (wrecks, cascading failures, etc.) in the future. It's wasteful, to me, to spend thousands and thousands of dollars on a nice car, only to suppose that neglecting a thousand or so dollars (or less) in proper maintenence is somehow frugal.

I will admit, though, that finding a good, honest mechanic is about as easy as finding a good, cheap butcher.

[Bullhajj]

The reason it costs so much at the dealership is because those guys are used to being the experts and charge a price to match it. It's like sending your PC into Dell just to check it out--they'll probably do a pretty great job, but not necessarily one that's worth a 50- to 100-percent premium.

Thanks for responding to my post, Joel!

Well if the little warranty work I've had done there is any indication of whether these guys are the "experts" I would have to disagree. But I get your bigger point, if you mean it's hard to find a good mechanic who can take care of your car. Those guys on Car Talk should get back in the shop!

akub is absolutely right about the electrical system, too. VW's have a long history of shoddy electrical work, despite an otherwise high-level of overall craftmanship.

You are probably right about the poor workmanship, but what will an inspection of this system tell me. Are they going to look and see if the wires have been gnawed through by rodents? Isn't the electrical system something that has to fail to be fixed? I tend to think of it in terms of a lightbulb: when it's lit, it works; no amount of testing is going to tell me when it's going to fail.

Edit: Gah, forgot to add a thank you to Joel!

[Bullhajj]

Actually, I'd check your CV boots as well, since your car is FWD. Get your air filter replaced for sure, and since you own a Volkswagen, it's a good idea to get your electrical system checked.

Thanks Jakub! What's involved with a CV boot inspection? I'm not even sure what CV boot is.

[Jakub]

Constant velocity (http://www.carcarecouncil.org/Drivetrain/cv_joints.shtml).

Car information is amazingly abundant on the internet. It's probably fourth after porn, computers, and paris hilton (or your other celebrity whore of the year.)

[Enidigm]

GOD DAMN CV joints.

I have replaced them on every car i've owned in the last three years (i've been switching around lately). And i fully expect them to go out on my new truck tomorrow. I almost changed my own several years ago, had the car raised with a floor jack and everything, but i couldn't quite work it out of the wheel assembly - stuck by mere millimeters. (On the same car they went out twice in about two years.)

I would change my oil every 3k, or 5k if using synthetic. You should be able to do that yourself cheap and easy as well; the only limiting factor is whether you have someplace, like a driveway, to do it in. In an apartment complex / duplex, there might not be room, or it might be too hilly.

[Bullhajj]

I try to change the oil every 5k miles. This VW really burns oil. I hate it. Never had a car that liked to go through so much oil. It's usually down 2 quarts every 4.5k miles.

[Joel]

I try to change the oil every 5k miles. This VW really burns oil. I hate it. Never had a car that liked to go through so much oil. It's usually down 2 quarts every 4.5k miles.

You might want to change it with more regularity, then. ;)

As for the electrical system, you're sort of right. It's hard to tell if it's wired poorly until it fails.

[Lunch of Kong]

A four-year old car should not be burning that much oil. I lose less than half a quart after 4,000 miles, and that's on my 7-year old Toyota Rav-4.

Are you sure it's not an oil leak somewhere, and that it's the engine that's actually burning it?

If you're burning that much oil, your spark plugs are probably covered in sludge by now. You may have worn piston rings or valve seals, which is very unusual for an engine that young driven by a responsible driver. Is the engine still under warranty?

Mention that you're burning 2 quarts of oil between every oil change, and that you'd like it checked out.

Like someone else said, use the term "scheduled maintenance", not "tune-up". Tune-up is a term reserved for cars built back in the 70s. Most engines in cars manufactured from 1980 forwards are computer-controlled. A computer senses the status of different engine components several times per second, and adjusts the ignition timing accordingly. In essence, you get a "tune-up" 16 times a second.

In fact, it is probably because of this real-time tune-up that you haven't noticed any effects of your oil-residue covered spark plugs. The computer is adjusting the ignition timing to compensate.

[Bullhajj]

It's always burned this much oil. When I first discovered it, I was shocked. I took it in at 5k miles and complained at the dealer and they told me--get this--2 qt is within spec. I was like--Jesus, they have a specification for how much oil it should burn every 5k miles? Not only that but it's OK to burn 2qt. The spec was like 2.5 qts. That just blew me away. Nevertheless, it will be interesting to see what those old plugs look like, because this is (I believe) the first they been changed since I purchased.

[Lunch of Kong]

I looked it up. Volkswagon sees nothing wrong with a Jetta engine burning up to 0.85 quarts of oil every 1000 miles.

That's insane.

Volkswagon's engineers should be ashamed of themselves.

[Jakub]

I feel bad for people who buy Volkswagens, until they say "but it's German engineering", and then I laugh.

The only reliable cars to come out of Germany are BMWs and Porsche. Everything else falls in between Chrysler and Ford in terms of reliability.

[Bullhajj]

I feel bad for people who buy Volkswagens, until they say "but it's German engineering", and then I laugh.

The only reliable cars to come out of Germany are BMWs and Porsche. Everything else falls in between Chrysler and Ford in terms of reliability.

VW are manufactured in Mexico nowadays. You can tell because it has a little Made in Mexico sticker under the chassis.

[Chris Nahr]

VW are manufactured all over the place. European ones are still made in Germany, but probably also some East European plants these days. American ones are made in Mexico, and I believe there's also a Chinese plant.

Also, Mercedes cars are still quite reliable, intermittent problems with the on-board electronics notwithstanding...