Netflix Irritations

[Dante Rising]

A few weeks ago I took the two week free trial at Netfix. Everything was wonderful, especially since I live less than an hour from their distribution center. Deliveries only took one day to arrive, so in the average week I would see roughly 4 movies. With the exception of one title, everything I wanted was always available "now".

With the start of my paid membership things have changed. The estimated arrival date of movies has moved from next day to four days out, despite the movies being in stock. In other words, the queue says "shipped today", but the arrival date is 4 days out. (making me think they are sitting on the disc for three extra days) Deliveries have definitely slowed. Furthermore, an increasing number of movies are "extended waits".

Has anyone else seen Netflix purposely slow down deliveries once you become a member? I have no problem with waiting for new releases, but to purposely sit on my titles to slow my consumption hardly seems fair according to the membership I paid to enjoy.

[noun]

Yes. I was with Netflix for about 5 months and they got slower each month. They shipped a total of 11 movies to me during my final month with them, and since I was requesting older films, it was actually MORE expensive to use Netflix than renting them for $1-$2 from my local video store.

I really did like their queue, though. It was helpful to have a handy online list of films I eventually wanted to watch.

[Dirt]

They unabashedly ship my movies to me the day after they get the movies I shipped back to them. It used to be the same day.

[Case]

*shrug*

I still get one day turnaround in the SF Bay Area.

[Jose Liz]

Same here. I send Monday. They get it and send another on Tuesday. I get new ones Wednesday.

[Rywill]

I recall reading somewhere that Netflix deliberately slows their pace when dealing with a high-volume movie-watcher. Like if you send too many back in too short a time, suddenly your name automatically gets bumped to the bottom of their to-do list, sort of thing. Never a problem for me because I don't watch that many movies, but (if it's true and I'm not inventing this whole thing in my imagination) that may be why you have problems and others don't. If you're watching 18 movies a month, you would probably qualify.

[Dante Rising]

I was running about 15-17 movies a month. if their current adjusted shipping schedule becomes a pattern, I'll be dropped to about 10 movies a month. Still not terrible, but significantly less than i was led to believe. Hopefully this is just an aberration.

[Nick Walter]

Has anyone else seen Netflix purposely slow down deliveries once you become a member? I have no problem with waiting for new releases, but to purposely sit on my titles to slow my consumption hardly seems fair according to the membership I paid to enjoy.

Fuckers did this to me too. Service started out zippy and then degraded and degraded until it's snail slow. My wife and I watch 9-12 movies a month tops, and that's with us watching movies and sending them back within 48 hours of arrival. Our netflix movies spend more time each month in netflix's hands than ours.

Unfortunately my wife is attached to our (huge) queue and won't let me cancel on the bastards.

[Rywill]

I really do think it's deliberate, which sucks. I mean, I understand that maybe it's necessary to the business model, but if so, you shouldn't be promising people unlimited movie watching. Tell them that the highest plan taps out at 10 movies a month or whatever you can support. It's not as snappy, but it's certainly more honest.

[Lunch of Kong]

I go through about 5-6 movies a month, and my turnaround time is about 1-2 days: I put the old movie in the mail Tuesday morning, and I get the new movie in the mail Wednesday or Thursday.

[beecubed]

i'm a super high volume renter and i've definitely noticed a difference. when they opened a distribution center in pittsburgh, i had about a month of really good turnaround, then it started to slow.

one other thing that i thought was a possibility is that not all movies ship to you from your nearest distribution center. i noticed that frequently, several movies would ship at the same time, but not arrive together.

[Duality]

one other thing that i thought was a possibility is that not all movies ship to you from your nearest distribution center. i noticed that frequently, several movies would ship at the same time, but not arrive together.
Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netflix#Distribution_centers) has a list of all of Netflix's current distribution centers, as well as what appear to be codes that correspond to that location.

Its been a while since I've looked at the envelope Netflix DVDs ship in, but I assume that code can be found somewhere on there.

[Guido Jones]

This has come up before (http://www.quartertothree.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=9589&start=0) - as I posted on that thread you may want to look at this article (http://dvd-rent-test.dreamhost.com/) about Netflixes renting practices (with a recently added postscript).

Also, that article links to a nifty little Netflix Turnaround Calculator (http://www.manuelsweb.com/netflixcalculator.htm)

[noun]

Ah, thanks, Guido. I missed this the first time around; probably skipped it since I wasn't using them at the time.

What's really odd about their business model is that, eventually, they'll have touched every DVD renter with a credit card in the US at some point and the number of ex-customers will be higher than the number of potential new customers. I wonder what they'll do then?

[Guido Jones]

Isn't that true of all businesses though?

[Dirt]

I knew it. I live 3 miles from their distribution center and I'm still seeing delays.

[Dirt]

Ah, thanks, Guido. I missed this the first time around; probably skipped it since I wasn't using them at the time.

What's really odd about their business model is that, eventually, they'll have touched every DVD renter with a credit card in the US at some point and the number of ex-customers will be higher than the number of potential new customers. I wonder what they'll do then?
Sell that information to Amazaon.

[Dante Rising]

I really do think it's deliberate, which sucks. I mean, I understand that maybe it's necessary to the business model, but if so, you shouldn't be promising people unlimited movie watching. Tell them that the highest plan taps out at 10 movies a month or whatever you can support. It's not as snappy, but it's certainly more honest.

It must be deliberate. The distribution centers haven't changed since my free trial period, but the estimated arrival date once an order has supposedly already shipped has moved from 1 day to 4 or 5 days.

Example (from my account):

Trial Period

Oz Disc 1, Season 2
Shipped Date: February 8th
Estimated Arrival Date: February 9th.

Membership-After Trial

Oz Disc 1, Season 2 (the same disc as above)
Shipped Date: April 4th
Estimated Arrival date: April 8th

They must be saying something shipped when they are in fact sitting on it for an extra 2 or 3 days. It does not take a parcel 4-5 days to travel two towns over. As mentioned by others, don't advertise one thing and then do another. 10 discs is still a healthy supply, but it wasn't the volume I was led to believe during my free trial, and it certainly is not "unlimited rentals".

Despite this, I'm still generally pleased with Netflix. They have a large anime selection, the discs are in good condition, and the one time I received a cracked disc I had a replacement two days later.

BTW, thanks, Guido, for the links. I'll need to read them in detail when I have a chance.

[MikeSofaer]

If they say they have shipped a disk they have not shipped, that's fraud, and there's a class action here.

The best part about not being a lawyer is when you give legal opinions out of your ass it's not legal advice, it's just you being a blowhard.

Now go sue them!

[Rywill]

You would think that if all those attorneys general went after Blockbuster for their "End of Late Fees" campaign, that this would be just as good a target.

[Dante Rising]

If they say they have shipped a disk they have not shipped, that's fraud, and there's a class action here.

The best part about not being a lawyer is when you give legal opinions out of your ass it's not legal advice, it's just you being a blowhard.

Now go sue them!

:shock: Nah, I still enjoy the service...you know, my decision to not even consider suing makes me feel slightly less American. :wink:


You would think that if all those attorneys general went after Blockbuster for their "End of Late Fees" campaign, that this would be just as good a target.

Ever since BB ended their late fees, I can't get a new release to save my life at one of their stores. Apparently everyone is a lazy bastard.

[Dirt]

Time to open a Mom and Pop, charge $1/movie and $1 a day afterwards. People will figure that they'll be able to return the movies in 3 days and it's still be cheaper than Blockbuster.

[Union Carbide]

That presumes that people are good at basic math.

[shift6]

Its been a while since I've looked at the envelope Netflix DVDs ship in, but I assume that code can be found somewhere on there.
http://shift6.com/qt3/netflix.jpg

I can't find a code as far as where it came from, but it's easy enough to find the hub I return it to. :)

[Guido Jones]

You would think that if all those attorneys general went after Blockbuster for their "End of Late Fees" campaign, that this would be just as good a target.

And what would they be gone after for? Netflix doesn't guarantee in advertisments or on it's site any turn around time, or that they won't give preferential treatment to certain customers. What they're doing is shitty if you want to rent 30 movies a month, but there's nothing illegal about it as far as I can tell.

I'm surprised you'd suggest something like that Ry :P

[noun]

We reserve the right to allocate and ship DVDs to you in any manner that we, in our sole and absolute discretion, determine. In addition, we will, in our sole and absolute discretion, determine the quantity of DVDs we purchase for any particular title and the level of staffing and number of shipments to be processed at each distribution center. As a result, we may not always send you the first choice from your queue, and we may not ship out your next DVD on the same day that we receive one from you. Our goal is to ship you the DVDs listed highest in your queue. We try to ship you DVDs from the distribution center closest to you so that you get movies quickly. Often, on the same day that we receive a DVD from you, we will ship the next available DVD from your queue. In certain instances, your next available DVD will not ship until the next business day following our receipt of your returned movie. This can occur, for example, when your top choices are not available to you from your closest distribution center or the number of shipments to be processed by the distribution center on that day has been exceeded. When this happens, your DVD will ship on the next business day and may come from an alternate distribution center.

In determining priority for shipping and inventory allocation, we give priority to those members who receive the fewest DVDs through our service. As a result, those subscribers who receive the most movies may experience next-day shipping and receive movies lower in their queue more often than our other subscribers.

That sure sounds different from the big "unlimited rentals" blurb on their front page. I agree with Rywill, I think a class-action suit would certainly be on par with the one against Blockbuster. While I don't think anyone's entitled to damages or a refund of any kind, I think Netflix should be obligated to change their front page language to something more accurate. As it is, customers aren't making an informed choice, and the business model of intentionally forcing high volume users out the door is just bizarre.

[Guido Jones]

I'm not seeing any claims about unlimited rentals on their front page - the closest claim you get to that is on their "How it works" page where they say:

With Netflix you can rent as many DVDs from the comfort of your home and have them delivered to your door in about 1 business day!

The important part is where they indicate it will take some time (and not an exact amount of time) to get you the DVD. This is totally different from the Blockbuster issue, where they claimed they didn't charge late fees, but still did under another name.

[MikeSofaer]

I was just saying that if their web page advertises a DVD as shipped to you when they are holding on to it to slow down your rate that is fraud. They can send movies at whatever rate they want, they just have to be honest about it and put on their webpage "cooling off" or something on a DVD they aren't going to ship yet. The mysterious 3 extra days after "shipped" implies it's not them delaying it, and that is fraud.

[Rywill]

I'm not seeing any claims about unlimited rentals on their front page - the closest claim you get to that is on their "How it works" page where they say:

With Netflix you can rent as many DVDs from the comfort of your home and have them delivered to your door in about 1 business day!

The important part is where they indicate it will take some time (and not an exact amount of time) to get you the DVD. This is totally different from the Blockbuster issue, where they claimed they didn't charge late fees, but still did under another name.
Well, reasonable minds can differ, but I very much disagree with you. Their webpage says you can rent "as many DVDs" as you like, that you can rent "unlimited" DVDs, "you can exchange DVDs for new DVDs as often as you like," and "you can rent as many DVDs as you want for just $17.99 a month." To me, that pretty clearly says that you have unlimited rentals per month, subject only to the 3-at-a-time limit (or whatever plan you signed up for) and how fast you can turn them around. I don't think they could credibly argue something like "Well, you can get as many as you like if you stay on for multiple months," because the ad claim is pretty clearly that you can get as many as you like in ONE month. (This would be like Blockbuster claiming that there are in fact never late fees, as long as you return all your movies on time.)

Their best argument, I think, is that they have a limited number of certain DVDs, and if they only have five copies for ten people, they can prioritize that however they want. (Consumers might wish that they get whatever is next available for them, rather than just waiting for something that has a wait, but I don't see that Netflix has promised to do that, exactly.) But it seems like the known, intended result of that system is that heavy users in fact can't rent as many DVDs as they want--that any normal queue is going to get held up with waiting lists. If Netflix knows that, I think there's a fair argument that their advertising is false. It's very similar to the Blockbuster claim--if you abide by certain rules that aren't disclosed in the ad, what the ad says is true. But if you act the way a normal person might in reaction to the ad, the ad is false.

The turnaround time is another issue. They say that they'll ship you movies in "about one day," and in another place say that they ship movies to "90%" of their customers within one day, based on how close the customer is to a distribution center (not based on how many movies the person has rented, notice). I think any reasonable person would agree that (for example) five days is not "about one day." So to the extent that Netflix ships DVDs to some customers in 5 days, I think the "about one day" claim is false. And if they base their shipping decisions on your rental history, rather than the unavoidable delay in getting their DVDs back because you live in Jerkwater, Alaska, that's also a lie.

At any rate, I think the case against Netflix is at least as good as the one against Blockbuster.

[Jose Liz]

NYT figured out that you can still rent 22 movies a month, down from a total of 40 if you sent back movies the same day and get it the next day.

FYI, they're not all going to take around 5 days. You'll get progressively longer waits as the month goes by.

When you're paying $20, and you get 10 movies, and you want to SUE the company, there's something seriously wrong. Perhaps that's why America isn't so well liked around the world.

Also, with the amounts you all wish you rent, it makes me wonder if you're actually watching the movies Netflix sends you.

[noun]

Translation: "I cannot dispute you logically, so I'll insult you a couple of times instead. Neener."

[Rywill]

NYT figured out that you can still rent 22 movies a month, down from a total of 40 if you sent back movies the same day and get it the next day.

FYI, they're not all going to take around 5 days. You'll get progressively longer waits as the month goes by.

When you're paying $20, and you get 10 movies, and you want to SUE the company, there's something seriously wrong. Perhaps that's why America isn't so well liked around the world.

Also, with the amounts you all wish you rent, it makes me wonder if you're actually watching the movies Netflix sends you.
It doesn't matter whether I'm watching them or not, or whether I can rent 10 or 15 or 22 or whatever number Jose Liz has decided is enough movies for anybody. We're not talking about whether the Netflix service is worth the money or is good for most people. We're talking about whether their advertising claims are true, or misleading. If I advertise a computer for $20, and then you come into my store and I tell you the actual price is $750, I can't just go "But it's okay because that's still a pretty good deal." The whole point of truth-in-advertising laws is that companies can't make claims they don't stand behind--even if the actual deal they're offering is still good, or should be fine for most people, or whatever. Given that companies have 100% control over what claims they make and 100% information about what services they are actually providing, that doesn't seem unreasonable.

Companies run into problems because they want to advertise something simple and snappy--"No more late fees" or "Unlimited DVD rentals." Advertising a more complicated, nuanced deal just turns people off and is too hard to put on a banner. But at the same time, they don't want to incur the business consequences of actually living up to the simple deal they're advertising. So they try and advertise the simple deal while actually offering the complex deal, and that's something that can get them into trouble.

Whatever the merits of the debate, though, spare me your "The world dislikes you, America" nonsense. That doesn't get us anywhere. Although IIRC you're the guy who started a thread about how you got into Yale, so you must be some kind of genius--maybe I'm just not understanding your point.

[Jose Liz]

You can do whatever you please. I don't think an appropiate solution is suing a company that is providing great service. In other words, I don't want to miss out on their service because some people are (IMO, don't want another personal attack coming my way) abusing it.

My frustration was not with Netflix's questionable advertisement, but people's willingness to sue over something to trivial.

(IMO) a more appropiate solution would be to write to the company and express dissatisfaction. Or hey, even better, go to ANOTHER service that you'll like better. Neither Wal-Mart nor Blockbuster limit DVDs. You are correct, though, the advertising is misleading. You are also correct in that the service is just fine for most people.

And yes, I did get into Yale. I'm glad you feel so highly about Yale admits. :) FYI, the thread wasn't about getting into Yale. It was about differences between Yale and Penn that may sway my admission in either direction.

[Dirt]

Actually, I've heard that you'll run into the same practice from Blockbuster's website.

[Guido Jones]

Translation: "I cannot dispute you logically, so I'll insult you a couple of times instead. Neener."

You never responded to where on the front page the unlimited promise was either, so yeah :P

Rywill: Yeah, I'll just let it go as reasonable minds can differ. Just to be clear though, I think what they're doing is shitty and that's the reason I don't use Netflix. I don't want to turn this into a Elhajj like thread :P

[Rywill]

It's funny, because I actually use Netflix and love it. I just think their ads are deceptive.

[noun]

You never responded to where on the front page the unlimited promise was either, so yeah

Actually, you know what - you win here. They updated their front page so Unlimited isn't the first thing you see anymore. One has to scour the Terms and Agreements page to find the details.

[Alan Dunkin]

You know I remember a similar episode of Coach where Luther complains about getting kicked out at the all-you-can eat buffets because they wouldn't let him eat beyond something like 15 courses, saying it wasn't really "all you can eat."

--- Alan

[Dante Rising]

Also, with the amounts you all wish you rent, it makes me wonder if you're actually watching the movies Netflix sends you.


Hitting a large number of movies a month is fairly easy. After work and sleep I generally have about 5 hours a day to burn. I usually watch 1 movie on the weekdays, and two to three on weekends.

[Derek Meister]

If you watch a good number of anime DVDs or other similar titles that tend to have a single 45 minute piece on them, it's not hard to go through a DVD a day.

They updated their front page so Unlimited isn't the first thing you see anymore.

They used to have the words "Unlimited Rentals" on some of their advertisements, including the ones that would appear on the inside flap you would tear off of the return envelope, but I remember those going away right after that informal study of wait times based on your queue and usuage appeared on the internet a few years ago.