Turbo Tax ?!

[sellthekids]

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/software/B00006ULHT/customer-reviews/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/104-9997666-5363946
these don't seem very positive. most people are hating it for the new "piracy" protection scheme. i have used it for the last two years and found it very useful, easy, and helpful. would hate to switch now, but i will if Intuit has gone the way of evilness. anyone know anything about Turbo Tax this year?

does it really install this and if so, should i be worried?:
http://www.privacyandspying.com/privacy-c_dilla.html

thanks for any opinions/info you have!

[DavidCPA]

I use Turbotax online and don't buy the software at all. I didn't look at your links and am not aware of what Intuit is up to, but I haven't had any problems with my personal information using their online service.

-DavidCPA

Update: OK, I read the amazon reviews and obviously Intuit has a new license agreement (and associated spyware) that prohibits multiple installs of the same copy of TurboTax. Intuit is obviously trying to prohibit "sharing" of TurboTax software. Probably could have handled the implementation better, but I don't think they are alone in their practices. The C-dilla software is new to me. I'll let the real tech geeks cover that.

As I mentioned above, I use the online version so I don't have this problem. I can work on my taxes anywhere there is an internet connection.

[Anonymous]

They used that same system last year... it's annoying, but I can see why they needed to do it.

Seriously, I think they needed to do it, because TurboTax was literally one of those programs that damn near everyone let their friends and neighbors borrow and install at tax time. So like, one copy goes to service an entire block of families.

[Derek Smart [3000AD]]

C-Dilla is the same software used by Macrovision for their SDK authentication. In fact, I have a folder marked C_Dilla on my dev machine I use for copy protecting my builds.

[TimElhajj]

]C-Dilla is the same software used by Macrovision for their SDK authentication. In fact, I have a folder marked C_Dilla on my dev machine I use for copy protecting my builds.

So then this means that if I install Turbo Tax this year, you're going to be spying on me, too, Derek? :shock:

[Tim]

Jesus Christ, you can get the software for like $10 and people steal it?

I've used TaxCut for many years. I started with TurboTax, but dropped them when they repeatedly screwed up my direct order one year.

I think the basic TaxCut was $15, has a $5 rebate, plus a rebate to pay for a copy of MS Money standard ($30). My wife & I both have a little Schedule C income and we itemize our deductions. The super-duper gold deluxe editions don't seem to offer anything important. Usually a rebate for electronic filing, included state software, and stupid video clips of experts saying "you might be able to avoid some taxes with an IRA contribution". If you will use those first two, it might be a good deal.

I just got a nice DVD case in the mail from Intuit - a pretty aggressive move to 'win me back'. It's been at least 5 years. It included an install CD, but required a credit card for 'activation'. It superficially looked as if it was something that I had ordered. I already had TaxCut, but the DVD case did break down to a generic one very nicely and I think is now holding a Jackie Chan DVD we got with a box of cereal.

Anyhow, I don't know anything about their copy protection, but I think TaxCut is a respectable alternative if you are shopping around.

[sellthekids]

for those who care...a follow-up:

http://news.com.com/2100-1017-979357.html


Instead, customers are assigned an activation number from Intuit, either by the Internet or phone, when they install TurboTax. The activation number is tied to the product "key" for that particular copy of TurboTax. Anybody who tries to install the software using that product key after it has already been activated using the number will be refused and invited to purchase a valid license.

In most cases, customers who need to reinstall TurboTax on a new PC or hard drive simply have to enter the original activation number they received, Gulbransen said.

"Product activation does not prevent people who want to upgrade their equipment or have to deal with a hard drive crash from changing their hardware," he said. "We've heard from people who installed TurboTax right away and then got a new PC for Christmas. For most people, they can reactivate the product without even contacting us."


Customers are also complaining about Safecast, the Macrovision security software Intuit uses to verify activation numbers. Reports have surfaced in discussion groups and some news sites classifying Safecast--also known as C-Dilla for the company that provided the technology to Macrovision--as "spyware," programs surreptitiously installed on a PC that track and report how the PC is used. Spyware programs such as Gator and Brilliant Digital have prompted growing concern among PC users.

"I have used TurboTax for eight years, but this year they have used a highly intrusive, insidious spyware/registration/copy protection scheme called C-Dilla," said a user in a comment on Amazon's product page for TurboTax Deluxe. "They don't tell you they're going to install it, there is no option not to install it, and there is no way to get rid of it...I won't let it on my computer."

But Gulbransen said the complaints are unfounded. "The whole C-Dilla flap is based on misinformation," he said. "It's never been spyware; it has no spyware components. It doesn't monitor anything; it doesn't tell us anything about the user, their system, their PC activity. It just checks on the random number generated when you activate the product."

Michael Glass, senior product marketing manager at Macrovision, said Safecast simply checks for a valid license file when a program is launched.

"It's absolutely, categorically false to call this spyware," Glass said. "We don't send any information about the user's system to either ourselves or the software publisher. We don't monitor what you download, which Web sites you visit, or anything like that."

[Monkeybutt]

A freebie federal tax program...www.taxact.com

[sellthekids]

i love reading about companies backpeddling once they get caught.

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,826594,00.asp

i'll be using TaxCut this year, based solely on the fact that Intuit are a bunch of morons.

[DennyA]

Does Taxcut import info from last year's Turbotax files? I'd already ordered Turbotax before all this hit, so I'll use it this year. But I'll be shifting to someone else next year.

But that feature that gets all your basic info (earnings, taxes paid, address, etc.) from the previous year saves a lot of data entry.

[Bokonon]

C-Dilla is sort of easy to get around, but then again with any amount of work or time put into something, someone will be able to steal it.

[Jason Levine]

Does Taxcut import info from last year's Turbotax files? I'd already ordered Turbotax before all this hit, so I'll use it this year. But I'll be shifting to someone else next year.

But that feature that gets all your basic info (earnings, taxes paid, address, etc.) from the previous year saves a lot of data entry.

I've edited this post to completely change my answer. Found a description of TaxCut Deluxe that says, "Seamlessly transfers your tax and financial information from TurboTax®, Quicken® and Microsoft® Money into TaxCut for speed and accuracy. Don't be fooled into thinking you are stuck using the same old tax and financial software programs year after year. TaxCut allows you to import from last year's TurboTax and from the 2000 - 2003 versions of Microsoft Money and Quicken." So there you go.

[Jakub]

What happened to Quicken? Everyone stopped using that?

[Jason Levine]

Over the past several years, I've stuck with TurboTax over TaxCut, because I had a considerable amount of self-employed income and have maintained an SEP retirement account. The last version of TaxCut Deluxe that I used required me to manually calculate how much I could contribute to the SEP account using the included IRS publications. TurboTax Deluxe, otoh, has a handy little "maximize" button that automatically calculates the maximum contribution. This may have changed in recent TaxCut versions, but I haven't investigated it.

[sellthekids]

SafeCast Explains C-Dilla...in an unsatisfying way (http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,830101,00.asp)

nope. won't be using TurboTax. i am hearing good things from people i have asked about TaxCut. some long term users say they love it and have no issues and no reason to change. i like that.

[Anonymous]

I've been buying TurboTax since 1996 (State and Federal).

I just went to their online site customer support to ask them to log me as a "lost customer" contact (or however they term it), because I'll be buying Kiplinger Taxcut this year.

Had they gone with a simple "must have the CD to print" version of protection, I would have stayed with TurboTax. But I'm not comfortable with it being tied to a computer, and I'm voting with my dollar.

--Dave

[Dave Weinstein]

(That was me)

[JeffL]

I'm missing something here.

I've been using TurboTax for years, and it's saved me probably a few thousand dollars on some things I wouldn't have caught or figured out on my own. And it is extremely elegant in, for example, carrying over capital losses from one year to the next. etc.

So I've read everthing on the C-Dilla/Safecast application. There doesn't appear to be any spyware or anything intrusive (as opposed to crap like Gator.) It's a copy protection scheme, it activates the software based on your registration code, which it basically encrypts and hides on your HD to stop enterprising pirates. I have a buddy who decided to move it from his desktop to his notebook, and he had to re-enter the activation code on his notebook, and it worked. Hmm.

So what is everyone up in arms about? What is so slimey here?

[Jason McCullough]

That they can't steal it anymore.

[Anonymous]

And that's always been the problem. I've seen it happen. The moms at my church always pass the copy of Turbo Tax around. One of them will but it in early January, do her taxes, and then let her friend borrow it the next week. One copy covers an entire church of households.

When they finally instituted some kind of product activation last year was when they all started having to buy their own copies, which finally put some semblence of fairness for Turbotax's publisher. Until one of the mom's had trouble installing it on her computer, and the next thing you know, they're kidnapping me after church so I can fix it for them. Of course, the problem was that you get anybody over 50 near a computer, and there's a good chance that they turn into complete and total newbs. It turned out that they weren't following the step by step instructions properly. Arghhhhh.....

[sellthekids]

I'm missing something here.

I've been using TurboTax for years, and it's saved me probably a few thousand dollars on some things I wouldn't have caught or figured out on my own. And it is extremely elegant in, for example, carrying over capital losses from one year to the next. etc.

So I've read everthing on the C-Dilla/Safecast application. There doesn't appear to be any spyware or anything intrusive (as opposed to crap like Gator.) It's a copy protection scheme, it activates the software based on your registration code, which it basically encrypts and hides on your HD to stop enterprising pirates. I have a buddy who decided to move it from his desktop to his notebook, and he had to re-enter the activation code on his notebook, and it worked. Hmm.

So what is everyone up in arms about? What is so slimey here?

what is slimey is that SafeCast (SC) is not removed from your system by uninstalling TurboTax (TT). it is also slimey that Intuit decided to insert SC into the TT install and yet you get none of the EULAs or anything associated with the SC installation.

other issues, as i have read and i think the links above discuss, is that SC writes itself to your HDDs sector 32. you cannot remove this portion of SC ever...not with by wiping the partion, not by formatting. it is there for ever.

SC also installs a service that runs in the background, using up memory and processing...yet you as a user and owner of the system are not told anything about this. remove TT and SC is still running as a service on your PC? why? why would it need to be there post-uninstall?

lastly, it has been mentioned that SC will stop your CD burner from burning selected media. i have been hesitant to think this is totally true, but what appears to happen is this: with SC installed as part of TT and TT then uninstalled, SC remains. you now insert another program that uses SC and try to copy it. it fails. i am not talking about pirating. i am talking about my right to back-up sensitive programs b/c i am afraid to lose them, etc.

either way, i am worried b/c i do not give Intuit the right in their quest to protect their IP to leave programs running services on my PC, even after i have uninstalled their program. that is slimey. the way they went about trying to protect their IP is slimey. this is the same problem with the RIAA accusing all it's 'user' as pirates. i refuse to help funds morons who act this way.

i suggest reading some of the links.

[Jason Levine]

Of course, the problem was that you get anybody over 50 near a computer, and there's a good chance that they turn into complete and total newbs.

I've been flamed before, but this is the first time I've really felt insulted. :wink:

[DennyA]

The moms at my church always pass the copy of Turbo Tax around.
Ah, such lovely hypocrisy among churchgoers.

Ladies, you might try re-reading the freaking eighth commandment.

Edited for spelling. Even though I didn't say anything to the guy who typed "rediculous" earlier today.

[Captain Cookiepants]

*whew*! I thought this was a tax on Turbo Teen (http://www.yesterdayland.com/popopedia/shows/saturday/sa1269.php)!! I'm OK now.

[JeffL]

what is slimey is that SafeCast (SC) is not removed from your system by uninstalling TurboTax (TT). it is also slimey that Intuit decided to insert SC into the TT install and yet you get none of the EULAs or anything associated with the SC installation.


SC also installs a service that runs in the background, using up memory and processing...yet you as a user and owner of the system are not told anything about this. remove TT and SC is still running as a service on your PC? why? why would it need to be there post-uninstall?

lastly, it has been mentioned that SC will stop your CD burner from burning selected media. i have been hesitant to think this is totally true, but what appears to happen is this: with SC installed as part of TT and TT then uninstalled, SC remains. you now insert another program that uses SC and try to copy it. it fails. i am not talking about pirating. i am talking about my right to back-up sensitive programs b/c i am afraid to lose them, etc.

either way, i am worried b/c i do not give Intuit the right in their quest to protect their IP to leave programs running services on my PC, even after i have uninstalled their program. that is slimey. the way they went about trying to protect their IP is slimey. this is the same problem with the RIAA accusing all it's 'user' as pirates. i refuse to help funds morons who act this way.

i suggest reading some of the links.

I've read the links, as I said. As for the removal of the background app - I'm a fanatic on running a clean system, and I would hate having something like that running in the background, but Intuit is providing a utility for removing SC once you're done using Turbotax, so that's not an issue.

The fact that a program was not uninstalled, and if it did indeed run and use resources in the background even after TurboTax was uninstalled, would have been an issue for me. But since it can be removed, that's no biggie.

As for "treating everyone as if they are a pirate" - yeah, that's a bear. Unfortunately more people probably pirate Turbotax than buy it. A program that popular and that highly pirated has every right to include a copy protection scheme. If they provide an uninstall that removes SC, then it just doesn't seem to be a big deal. Again, unless I'm missing something.

[Jason McCullough]

other issues, as i have read and i think the links above discuss, is that SC writes itself to your HDDs sector 32. you cannot remove this portion of SC ever...not with by wiping the partion, not by formatting. it is there for ever.

Ok, that's pretty stupid. Should be automatically removed by uninstalling; it's moronic that they expect you to go hunt down a special utility to get rid of it.

[sellthekids]

I've read the links, as I said. As for the removal of the background app - I'm a fanatic on running a clean system, and I would hate having something like that running in the background, but Intuit is providing a utility for removing SC once you're done using Turbotax, so that's not an issue.

The fact that a program was not uninstalled, and if it did indeed run and use resources in the background even after TurboTax was uninstalled, would have been an issue for me. But since it can be removed, that's no biggie.

As for "treating everyone as if they are a pirate" - yeah, that's a bear. Unfortunately more people probably pirate Turbotax than buy it. A program that popular and that highly pirated has every right to include a copy protection scheme. If they provide an uninstall that removes SC, then it just doesn't seem to be a big deal. Again, unless I'm missing something.

well, i think what is up for debate is, will the *new*uninstaller actually remove all the SC components? going in sequential order, here's how it appears to me:

day the first - we're Intuit and we are tired of people stealing our software. fsck you users, STFU, we'll do what we want.

day the 10th - we're Intuit, we'd like to dispell some 'myths' about the install and SC and tell all you users to STFU.

day the 22nd - we're Intuit, we run a company to serve our customers. we love our customers. so we are going to make a uninstall tool for them. of course, once you uninstall SC, you cannot run TT. sorry. btw - STFU.

so i only have two thoughts on this:
1) Intuit are idiots.
2) Intuit might not be trustworthy and might be lying about the functionality/completeness of the uninstaller for SC just to save face and sell more units.

b/c so far, everything from Intuit is slathered with 'marketing' all over it.

[Qenan]

We've been using TurboTax for years (and yeah, we buy it). I think they just lost me as a customer...

Actually, I'm mad at the game companies about this too. And I buy fewer games now that I have to stick in the damn CD every time. (I have never pirated a game, so for me, anti-piracy crap just reduces the value of your software.)

[DennyA]

Yeah, it's not that they're protecting their product. Fine. I'm using Windows XP, after all, so I've accepted product activation.

But to write crap all over my hard drive? In unsupported areas of the drive, particularly? Who knows what problems that could cause. And when I remove a program, there should not be a single byte of it left over, in sector 32 or wherever.

This is my last year for Turbotax, unless they change their tune next year.

[Joe O'Malley]

A friend of mine did a little research, and apparently that TT utility attempts to detect copyright protection on media you attempt to burn ont a CD-ROM. So music, movies, all sorts of files might be blocked by it. I'm not positive if it removes with the removal utility that can be found on the net, either.

The whole thing is pretty slimey to me. I don't want the Turbo Tax people screwing with my machine. If they want to protect their product then let them copy-protect their product. Don't leave a utility on my machine that might mess me up in the future.

[sellthekids]

Intuit Explains Their Side (http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,834917,00.asp)


can be removed after completion of the tax return. (The capability to totally remove the C-Dilla folder, associated components and registry entries when TurboTax is uninstalled is being developed and will be available soon [[The uninstaller is available as of 1/16/03 at this link.]] If the folder is being used by other programs on the customer's computer, we will deactivate the TurboTax license but not remove the shared C-Dilla folder and disrupt those other programs; that is a decision the customer needs to make.)
this set of statements worries me. so their is a chance that the SafeCast/C-Dilla folder will be shared? b/c i have installed software after TurboTax or b/c it will find something to monitor?

nope, still not buying it.

what i am surprised about is how the mainstream media hasn't picked-up on this...i mean, at the very least, Microsoft is partnered with TaxCut for this season, so you'd think MSNBC would have a clue.

guess many, many of the tax software users out there just are clueless when it comes to what they install. as a matter of fact, i guess this is how viri breed in the wild. some people will just install anything!
:roll:

[Bernie_Dy]

Um, I'm considering a switch to TaxCut this year, but it has nothing to do with the copy protection scheme.

Intuit is the Microsoft of home finance software, and their pricing certainly follows the MS model of getting more expensive. No, it's not like being stuck having to pay $1000 for Visual Studio (anybody know where to get VS .Net for a good price, short of signing up for a student ID?), but each year for the last few I've noticed that TurboTax is either more expensive or has a smaller rebate. The software itself does not appear to be substantially better each year, and I think I'm just getting tired of paying more for essentially the same software.

I'm considering the switch to TaxCut because the deluxe version is only $15 or $20, and I'm sure it does a good enough job. You're asking: if that's my plan, to support competition, then why haven't I switched to Linux? Well, I'm lazy...and that situation is a little different...go listen to Three Dead Trolls in a Handbag's "Every OS Sucks." :)

[Jason McCullough]

No, it's not like being stuck having to pay $1000 for Visual Studio (anybody know where to get VS .Net for a good price, short of signing up for a student ID?)

I typed: Why on earth do you need the $1000 version? It's just a few token extras to convince businesses they need the priciest version.

Then I looked at their pricing page. Jesus (http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/howtobuy/pricing.asp). Unless you know a MSFT fulltimer (they can get discounted copies for dirt cheap), you're best off finding some junky used copy of an upgrade-qualified one and getting that.

I can't believe that price. $200, maybe, but $1000?

[Anonymous]

Yeah, I know, it's nuts. I have Visual Studio 6...you'd think they'd give me a cheap upgrade to .Net. But the Pro edition upgrade through guys on eBay is $400-500. Getting the Enterprise edition is the $1000 version I mentioned.

[Tim]

What do you want Visual Studio for? You can get trial editions for just about free - I think the time bomb is the only limitation. There are also fairly cheap 'learning' editions, though I think they're pretty crippled. But about $100 for VB.Net alone, I think.

If the money is an issue, I can't imagine you really need the Enterprise version, which would put the list price for an upgrade at $549. I bet you can find that under $500 if you shop around.

I think you can also get the whole .Net SDK for free, which will have the compilers and libraries, but no GUI design tools.

The only 'cheap' alternative I know of to get a big VS.Net version would be an MSDN subscription. The Enterprise version of that lists for about $2000, but can be had for under $1000 on ebay. It includes development licenses for lots of other software - office, operating systems, servers.

[Tim]

But speaking of Visual Studio, there should be a release of "Visual Studio 2003" within the next few months. It may save a little money to skip VS.Net and wait for that. I understand it will feature improved support for Managed C++ and old-fashioned standard compliant C++.

[Jason McCullough]

Oh, VC++, C#, and VB are all $109 each, so I guess that's not too bad. Check under the individual products.

[Chris Nahr]

Oh, VC++, C#, and VB are all $109 each, so I guess that's not too bad. Check under the individual products.

Note that these are "basic" editions with crippled features. As I recall the VC++ version doesn't have an optimizer, and the others cannot build libraries, only executables. These versions are really useless except as teaching tools.

[Brad Grenz]

You poor bastards... If you all made as little as me you could file online for free at Intuit's Tax Freedom Project (http://www.taxfreedom.com/). Suckers!

[Tim]

Note that these are "basic" editions with crippled features. As I recall the VC++ version doesn't have an optimizer, and the others cannot build libraries, only executables. These versions are really useless except as teaching tools.

I'm not positive about the limitations either, but you can certainly do lots of useful stuff without creating libraries or using the optimizer. Especially since I think both of those features are available for free with the .Net SDK, available for download here:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/downloads/default.asp?url=/downloads/sample.asp?url=/msdn-files/027/000/976/msdncompositedoc.xml&frame=true

Get it before Borland gets the government to sue them for hurting consumers by giving the stuff away!

[Jason McCullough]

You're right, they are no-optimization. Bah.