GC Fire Emblem movie [Archive] - Quarter To Three Forums

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Matthew Gallant

03-30-2005, 11:29 AM

WARNING: Contains depictions of 11 year-old adults.

It's the Japanese official trailer. (http://dlx.gamespot.com/gamecube/fireemblemtracesoftheblueflame/moreinfo_6121238.html)

Angie Gallant

03-30-2005, 11:37 AM

This makes the wait harder. I want it!

Reed

03-30-2005, 12:07 PM

B'ah. Whatever happened to getting married at 12 and having ulcers by 18?

In any case, I'm looking forward to it, due in the US in November. Fire Emblem 2 due for the GBA end of May.

Backov

03-30-2005, 01:37 PM

Seriously, what is up with the Japanese obsession with kids/adolescents as the heroes of games? Is it just some Japanese Marketing Weaselesque thing?

DrCrypt

03-30-2005, 01:46 PM

Angie Gallant

03-30-2005, 02:01 PM

Horrible Oscar

03-30-2005, 02:58 PM

I know the joy of the games lies in devising strategies and levelling your army and smacking the enemy across the map and all that, but I always just enjoyed watching my little men impale other little men with gorgeously animated critical hits. If they put those in 3D and make them sufficiently impressive, I'm sold.

Reed

03-30-2005, 03:05 PM

In any case, I'm looking forward to it, due in the US in November. Fire Emblem 2 due for the GBA end of May.

Fire Emblem 8, actually. The only Fire Emblem released in the states was Fire Emblem 7. And Fire Emblem 6 has recently been translated into English by an intrepid fan community. This is a great year to be an FE fan.
Right, but really Fire Emblem 2 here. Reminds me of Final Fantasy. FFIII in Japan was FFI here.

Shadarr

03-30-2005, 03:13 PM

I'd like to see more about the gameplay and less stuff that obviously isn't going to be a major part of the game. What are they going to do on the 'cube to make it better than the GBA version? Making it 3D doesn't really turn my crank that much.

Qenan

03-30-2005, 04:12 PM

I'll buy it. It was really the only GBA game that I loved.

Uncle Larry

03-30-2005, 04:25 PM

Desslock

03-30-2005, 04:54 PM

Kevin Grey

03-30-2005, 05:00 PM

No. FFI was FFI, II and III were never seen stateside, IV was released as FFII on the SNES and FFVI was released as FFIII, AKA THE BEST ONE.

FF II was released in the GBA compilation pack, no? And III is coming out for the DS (but not GBA)? Or are those adaptations of the American "II and III", i.e. "IV and VI" What the hell happened to V, by the way.

Yes, all FF games except FFIII have now been released to the US market in one form or another and FFIII is coming to the DS.

FFV was finally released here as a part of a PSX compilation with FFVI.

Squirrel Killer

03-30-2005, 05:10 PM

Hoo boy... I'm going to use Arabic numerals for ease and clarity...

FF1 Japan = FF1 US, included on FF Origins for PS1 and FF1 & 2: Dawn of Souls for GBA
FF2 Japan = NR in US, included on FF Origins for PS1 and FF1 & 2: Dawn of Souls for GBA
FF3 Japan = NR in US, to my knowledge it has not been repackaged for the US market
FF4 Japan = FF2 in US, included on FF Chronicles for PS1
FF5 Japan = NR in US, included on FF Anthology for PS1
FF6 Japan = FF3 in US, included on FF Anthology for PS1
FF7 Japan = FF7 US

...and some sembelence of sanity reigns thereafter...

Desslock

03-30-2005, 05:26 PM

Hoo boy... I'm going to use roman numerals for ease and clarity...

FF1 Japan = FF1 US, included on FF Origins for PS1 and FF1 & 2: Dawn of Souls for GBA
FF2 Japan = NR in US, included on FF Origins for PS1 and FF1 & 2: Dawn of Souls for GBA
FF3 Japan = NR in US, to my knowledge it has not been repackaged for the US market
FF4 Japan = FF2 in US, included on FF Chronicles for PS1
FF5 Japan = NR in US, included on FF Anthology for PS1
FF6 Japan = FF3 in US, included on FF Anthology for PS1
FF7 Japan = FF7 US

...and some sembelence of sanity reigns thereafter...

Thanks, SK. FF3 is coming out for the DS http://www.gamespot.com/ds/rpg/finalfantasyiii/index.html?q=final+fantasy

Dirt

03-30-2005, 05:28 PM

extarbags

03-30-2005, 05:33 PM

Jason Lutes

03-30-2005, 06:15 PM

I had been under the impression that the Gamecube FE would be very different from our beloved GBA FE, but after watching the trailer it still seems to be a tactical, turn-based RPG. Sign me up.

Kevin Grey

03-30-2005, 06:49 PM

I had been under the impression that the Gamecube FE would be very different from our beloved GBA FE, but after watching the trailer it still seems to be a tactical, turn-based RPG. Sign me up.

Are you thinking of the Advance Wars Cube game?

03-30-2005, 06:49 PM

I had been under the impression that the Gamecube FE would be very different from our beloved GBA FE
Maybe you got it confused with Advance Wars? The AW installment which is currently being developed for GC happens to be an action game (with slight strategy elements, I guess) - unlike the GBA titles, which are turn-based strategy games.

EDIT: Kevin beat me to it.

Squirrel Killer

03-30-2005, 07:39 PM

Aren't '1', '2', '3', etc. Arabic numerals?

Are you calling me a terrorist?

DOH!

Jasper

03-30-2005, 07:39 PM

Most heroes in American fantasy novels tend to be adolescent or just on the cusp of adulthood as well. I imagine it's because kids and teens have the freedom to go on adventures and discover themselves, while adults have to be responsible and have day to day obligations to family and their occupation.

Huh? That's sure not been my experience reading "American" fantasy. There are plenty of books with kids/teens as protagonists, but those books are typically aimed at kids/teens.

Fantasy Authors I've read recently (includes some British authors), who stories aren't chiefly about child heroes:
Glen Cook
Robert E. Howard
Gene Wolfe
George R. R. Martin
Guy Gavriel Kay
Tolkein
Lord Dunsany
Rober Holdstock
Fritz Leiber
Fred Saberhagen
Ursula Leguin
Michael Moorcook
Barry Hughart

Which "American" authors (of books that aren't aimed at kids and teens) are you thinking of?

Really, japanese computer games and anime have a (to my western eyes, quite bizarre) prediliction for teenage and preteen protagonists (even for material not aimed at kids). This works out well in many cases (Hayao Miyazaki), but it is often awkward.

Anyway, I didn't find Fire Emblem (7) to be a particularily bad example of this, as nearly all the characters were adults, although the girls tended to border on jail bait.

forgeforsaken

03-30-2005, 08:30 PM

I noticed Martin, are you refering to Song of Ice and Fire, cause that's almost all about young heroes.

Kitsune

03-30-2005, 08:36 PM

Concerning the changes in Fire Emblem for the GC, besides the obvious ones you can see in the movie, there are the following:

Definitely in:

-There will be a new between-battle fortress system for doing all that nifty troop tweaking. Apparently, the basis for support building will be moved here somehow, though I'm not sure how. Anyway, here you'll also be able to gather information, modify weapons somehow and expend bonus experience points earned for certain things in battle freely among characters. No mention if they plan to introduce the prison for captured units that Berwick Saga is doing.

-There's a new stat, but nobody knows what it stands for yet.

-Back to the original elemental affiliations of spells, from the simplified spell triangle in the GBA games.

-Skills make a return. What's more it seems like you can trade and adjust skills and fit more than one on each character. There seems to be a circle radius (maybe with a maximum number of 20, maybe its just for that character) and each skill "costs" a certain amount of the circle to let the character use. (A demo screen shows one costing 5.) Skills include things like influencing the moral of characters around your immediate area, being able to move twice in one turn, buy from shops at a discount or distract enemies away from other players. They are not the typical "different attack type" definition of skills. And they definitely add a lot to the Fire Emblem experience. Especially the ninja skill where criticals = instant skills. :D I wouldn't worry about the balance, they never made the games any easier before.

-There's a new command to push an enemy unit one square away. Yeah, you say big deal. Err, anyone who's played the games ravenously will realize the potentials for such a move!

-There are new shape-shifting units who can turn into an entirely different unit, like dragons, exotic cats or wolves.

-There will be three difficulty modes from the beginning. Normal will be just like you originally played the first translated FE for the GBA. Hard will be for those who want a challenge, probably more comparable to the hard modes in the GBA games. Maniac will presumably return the game back to the days of the SFC games, which, well, they deserve the name maniac. I'm not kidding you, I consider Trachia 776 the hardest strategy game I've ever played, PC or console.

Not confirmed, but looking like they might be in:

-Looks like positioning and height will play only minor roles, if any and its still staying pretty flat.

-There's a chance (only a chance, mind you) that troop fatigue is returning, though it may only be on one of the higher difficulty levels.

-There's seems to be an argument on if anyone's seen footage of units descending from horses like before. I guess its quite possible that's back in as well.

I don't have the magazines with me anymore, but I'll go dig 'em up sometime and translate all the character and storyline information, if anyone wants. Someone has to "aye!" first though, otherwise I'm not going to go through the trouble.

-Kitsune

Desslock

03-30-2005, 08:38 PM

Jasper

03-30-2005, 09:22 PM

I noticed Martin, are you refering to Song of Ice and Fire, cause that's almost all about young heroes.
That's not what I recall reading it several months ago. Most of the characters are not children, nor are most of the characters leading chapter narratives children. As I recall 3 of the leading characters are children (Bran, Arya, Sansa), and 3 more start out as children but quickly are adults (Theon, Daenys, Jon). There are alot more characters in Martin's work, and most of them are adults.

The children have negligible impact on how events unfold; they're there more for their perspective than to drive the plot. This is quite a bit different from the common anime theme of teenage or even preteen kids saving the world.

Jasper

03-30-2005, 09:28 PM

Fantasy Authors I've read recently (includes some British authors), who stories aren't chiefly about child heroes:

Tolkein

Tolkien never wrote a single story about a child hero. Not one.

Some of the others don't ring true either.
I'm not quite sure what your point is... did you mistakenly think I made a list of authors who wrote stories centering around child heroes?

Justin Fletcher

03-30-2005, 09:58 PM

I'll buy it. It was really the only GBA game that I loved.
Wha-? No props for Advance Wars?

Edit: put my follow up in a different post

Kitsune

03-30-2005, 10:08 PM

This is quite a bit different from the common anime theme of teenage or even preteen kids saving the world.

Sorry buddy, but that's not a common theme of either anime or manga. Far from it.

These are common manga themes (of which anime is only a subset, so its best to list manga first):

-Girl gets involved in rather sinister politics between other girls, loved boys
-Gang member finds himself facing some sort of test of his unconventional lifestyle
-Any story of enlightenment, I predict this will never go out of style here
-Men fall in love with each other, fuck like roses.
-Promising talent rises through the ranks and overcomes various challenges
-Everything and everyone is fucked, sorry but that's the way life is
-A relatively normal or unlikable protagonist finds themself in the midst of all sorts of weirdos
-Ancient ghost reawakens modern aspect of Japanese life
-Cooking and recipes and anything having remotely to do with eating

The most common manga theme is actually slice of life.

-Kitsune

Justin Fletcher

03-30-2005, 10:19 PM

Seriously, what is up with the Japanese obsession with kids/adolescents as the heroes of games? Is it just some Japanese Marketing Weaselesque thing?
As far as FE is concerned, most of the folks in the GBA version and this trailer look to be young adults (18-21) rather than adolescents. The Japanese are just keeping it real for the hot demographic.

A more puzzling question for me is why do a good deal of characters in Japanese games/Manga/Anime appear Caucasian? Are they so stylized that I'm projecting that onto them, or am I correct in thinking that they usually look like they're more from the O.C. than from Osaka?

Jasper

03-30-2005, 10:28 PM

This is quite a bit different from the common anime theme of teenage or even preteen kids saving the world.
Sorry buddy, but that's not a common theme of either anime or manga. Far from it.
[snip]
The most common manga theme is actually slice of life.

I didn't mean it was the most common theme, just a common theme. I realize that anime and manga are very broad fields (much more so than their US counterparts) and that most of the variety doesn't make it to the US, but are you really saying that teenage/preteen kids saving the world isn't a common anime/manga theme? Is it really less common than the other themes you listed?

Kitsune

03-30-2005, 11:27 PM

I didn't mean it was the most common theme, just a common theme.

I know. ^_^

I realize that anime and manga are very broad fields (much more so than their US counterparts) and that most of the variety doesn't make it to the US, but are you really saying that teenage/preteen kids saving the world isn't a common anime/manga theme? Is it really less common than the other themes you listed?

Indeed, absolutely. Like most storytelling mediums, once they advanced past the phase of immediate physical conflict, stories in anime and manga never turned back. (And what I mean by that, is like how you see storytelling progress from violent myths and legends to novels and poems to modern mental stuff.) I don't even have to think about it twice.

I suppose you could say that its partially due to my preferences, as outside of videogames, I'm rather more aligned with the snob view that says stories are better when they're not about saving the world with heroes. (At least modern ones. The classics will always be great.) But then I obviously have to know much more about manga than I read. And also, most everyone I've known gravitates more toward real world conflicts than world-saving hero thingies. Its also true that manga and anime have absolutely huge female demographics that easily equal to the male, and while in Japan, you probably have more games targetted directly toward females (do you know for instance that Fire Emblem and Suikoden both tend to have higher female fanbases?) games are of course more male dominated. In fact, its actually kind of skewed negatively the other way, where people interested in such in manga and anime are thought of perhaps more geeks.

Saving the world, regardless of whether its by children or not, is common no matter what side of the Pacific you are on for videogames because they haven't yet gotten out of the rut of basing their action primarily on violence and probably won't still for a while, right? So its no surprise that games are more about that than other forms. Do you think I'd have a good basis if I concluded that from the American translated games I've played most American movies are about tortured ex-cops or Fabio and Shera saving the world?

Justin: A more puzzling question for me is why do a good deal of characters in Japanese games/Manga/Anime appear Caucasian? Are they so stylized that I'm projecting that onto them, or am I correct in thinking that they usually look like they're more from the O.C. than from Osaka?

Even if when its rather impossible to through a race on them because the race doesn't exist in the world of the game, I tend to project "Japaneseness" onto them. Though they are wearing European-style medieval armor, many of the Fire Emblem heroes look like they have Japanese features to me, for instance. Final Fantasy often features people with hairstyles and looks that are "in" right now (good examples include Selphie, Squall, Rikku, Tidus (yes unfortunately), Yuffie and Lulu) in Japan. Most look Japanese to me.

Protagonists having big eyes actually isn't as much a visual theme as you'd think it is, but they are there for several reasons. Its pretty complicated, so I'll just leave it at that and say I don't think many Japanese have a problem with their eyes, though sometimes surgeries to lessen or remove the fold have been popular, these are usually fads.

As for hair that is usually not black...

...do you realize how boring it is for everyone to have the same color hair? Thank the heavens for hair dye. I don't want black hair all my life just for genetics.

When the characters are meant to be emphatically non-Japanese its pretty obvious.

-Kitsune

Jasper

03-31-2005, 12:27 AM

Cool, thanks for setting me straight Kitsune!

What about videogames though? Would you say that videogames made in Japan in which you have fighting, world-saving, etc. tend to have quite young protagonists? Is that view also colored by the subset of games that happens to get imported to the US? Or is it just that the audience for such violent games in Japan is young?

I'm thinking of things like Sakura in Street Fighter, etc. Fighting Games in particular always seem to have annoyingly cute underage girl combatants, which for some reason drives me nuts. :-/ Final Fantasy always seems to have teenage protagonists (although my FF experience is limited), Link is a kid, etc.

Desslock

03-31-2005, 12:37 AM

I'm not quite sure what your point is... did you mistakenly think I made a list of authors who wrote stories centering around child heroes?

Yepper = Sorry about that - it triggered my automatic Tolkien-defence mode.

Jason Lutes

03-31-2005, 12:43 AM

Thanks a lot for the details about the gameplay, Kitsune. I'm really looking forward to this one now.

As far as the manga/anime stuff we see in America goes, it's all totally skewed to a younger audience because, at this point in time, that's who mostly consumes the stuff here. The same is true of our videogames. We now have a whole generation of American teens who take manga, anime, and Japanese RPGs for granted, thanks to their stepping through the Pokemon gateway at an earlier age.

As Kitsune pointed out, here in the U.S. we only see an tiny sliver of the incredibly broad field of manga. In Japan, there are manga about every possible subject you can think of, and they are produced and consumed at a staggering rate by almost all age groups (at least to my understanding).

extarbags

03-31-2005, 07:28 AM

Justin Fletcher

03-31-2005, 10:28 AM

Thanks for the response, Kitsune. I've been curious about it for some time. While some Manga artists, like classics and American faves Kojima, Ikegami, and Otomo, draw obviously Japanese characters, these "race-free" models seem to show up occasionally. I've actually found this more prevalent in games (most recently in FE and some of the characters in Phantom Dust). As for the hair color, I've always taken it as artistic license and not literal. That is, until characters in the GBA FE specifically referred to others as "green-haired." I had always thought the blue hair was a stand-in for black, as it has often been used in American comics. Guess not. Viva variety.

I agree that a game doesn't have to ask you to save the world in order to be "epic." Saving your neighborhood or saving your mother can be just as expansive. In fact, more personal adventures would probably be more emotionally resonant.

As for Link, his age is all over the place. I think the only time they specifically refer to it is in the manual of Zelda II (16). I soon expect to see The Legend of Zelda: The Terrible Twos and The Legend of Zelda: The Prostate of Doom.

EDIT: spelling

farley2k

03-31-2005, 10:51 AM

I just watched the trailer...looks good. To bad I will never play it.

I know I am a wimp, I am ok with that. The makers of Fire Emblem though apparently hate me because of that.

What I don't get - if they can make the game harder why can't they make it easier as well? It would seem to be a pretty easy change in the background. Make lets troops per map, give them less health, or something.

Instead we get two extra levels which are harder.

DrCrypt

03-31-2005, 12:25 PM

I don't really understand the "Fire Emblem is hard" thing. I find it is mostly only hard if you're some min-maxer who can't stand losing a guy. This is usually me. However, I've been playing the fan translated Fire Emblem 6 lately without really worrying about losing guys, and even though it's technically a harder game than Fire Emblem 7, it seems a hell of a lot easier just because I don't have to start a map over every time I lose a guy. Usually, the only time I restart is when I lose one of the three or four dudes I just can't live without... any one else who dies tends to be replaced by someone about as good over the next chapter or two. Still, it's hard to resist restarting as soon as you seem some character fall, which can make some levels take like ten tries to get through.

Justin Fletcher

03-31-2005, 12:36 PM

I don't really understand the "Fire Emblem is hard" thing. I find it is mostly only hard if you're some min-maxer who can't stand losing a guy. This is usually me.
It's usually me, too. I think the developer counts on this emotional attachment to ramp up the difficulty. Also, trying to level up everyone at a somewhat even rate meant that I was using folks who really shouldn't have been on the battlefield on several occasions. The combination of these two dynamics often made FE throw-worthy during my first go round with the game.

Jason Lutes

04-01-2005, 10:54 PM

Protagonists having big eyes actually isn't as much a visual theme as you'd think it is, but they are there for several reasons. Its pretty complicated, so I'll just leave it at that and say I don't think many Japanese have a problem with their eyes, though sometimes surgeries to lessen or remove the fold have been popular, these are usually fads.

I just read in the New Yorker profile of Miyazaki that the first manga characters with big round eyes were drawn by Osamu Tezuka of Astro Boy fame, and that he drew that way because he was a big fan of Betty Boop. I think the info came from one of Miyazaki's producers. Do you think that's a reasonable explanation, Kitsune?

Saber Cherry

04-02-2005, 12:02 AM

Cool, thanks for setting me straight Kitsune!

I supose this is getting off topic, but I'll have to say that Kitsune's knowledge in this is limited to Kitsune's experience, driven by Kitsune's interests. Which is true for everyone, of course. I've never seen or read anything like Kitsune's #4, but have read, seen, and played many many things where teens or preteens save the world... or kingdom... or town... or friends... or some aspect of reality. And it is vastly more common in modern Japanese storytelling than in that of America, in my experience. So is the (often gratuitous) inclusion of flagrantly homosexual characters and incestuous love, both of which seem almost mandatory in anime / manga, and almost taboo in American mass media.

Anders Hallin

04-02-2005, 03:29 AM

When the characters are meant to be emphatically non-Japanese its pretty obvious.
Yeah, that's when they're shifty, slanty-eyed Koreans.

Jasper

04-02-2005, 09:03 AM

I've never seen or read anything like Kitsune's #4, but have read, seen, and played many many things where teens or preteens save the world... or kingdom... or town... or friends... or some aspect of reality. And it is vastly more common in modern Japanese storytelling than in that of America, in my experience.
Errr, thanks for setting me straight Saber Cherry?...
I wondered if that was the case, despite deferring to Kitsune; anime/manga is such a huge field it's pretty difficult for one person to cover all of it, and each person is bound to know more about the genres they prefer.

Perhaps it's better to approach it from another angle. In the US kids/teens saving the world is looked at as simply ridiculous. From what I've seen this narrative is culturally more accepted in Japan. Does that strike both of you as true, or as a distortion?

Matthew Gallant

04-02-2005, 09:18 AM

Jasper

04-02-2005, 09:47 AM

Dave Long

04-02-2005, 09:58 AM

In the US kids/teens saving the world is looked at as simply ridiculous.
Star Wars, Harry Potter, Spiderman, (stretching here, but just a little) Terminator 2, Robin/Batgirl.

Yeah I think the Japanese do it more, but it's kind of odd how some of the western examples are also some of the most popular.
The StarWars prequels _are_ looked at as Ridiculous, Spider Man isn't a teen (and generally doesn't save the world), Terminator 2 I entirely disagree with, and Robin is just a sidekick. This leaves Harry Potter, which to me is an oddball anomaly.

If Luke or Spideman were 14-15 I'd agree with you, but they're not.

Spider-Man is a high school student dumbass. He's a kid who finds out that with great power comes great responsibility. Star Wars also features a kid who saves the entire freaking universe from the Empire. How old do you think Luke is in Star Wars? The whole thing is about him growing up and facing his father.

Are you so insecure in your own maturity that you have to question any story revolving around youth?

--Dave

Mike Cathcart

04-02-2005, 10:04 AM

Buffy and Smallville are pretty popular. Ender's Game sold a few copies I think. And I've never even heard Anakin's age mentioned when it comes to complaints about Episode 1. The movie might be ridiculous but I don't think an American audience would have had a hard time with Anakin saving the world/universe/whatever if the rest of the movie had been better.

Kitsune

04-02-2005, 11:08 AM

I wondered if that was the case, despite deferring to Kitsune; anime/manga is such a huge field it's pretty difficult for one person to cover all of it, and each person is bound to know more about the genres they prefer.

I hate to be a dick, but I've grown up knowing manga artists, I've published my own manga, I've been inside the system, I've talked to editors, I've seen the white papers, and industry figures, demographic studies, even helped out with some of them and done my own research. You may have noticed that that first post was written without my usual "It would seem," "I think," "It could be thought" "Perhaps you could say" "might/may" softening everywhere. That's because this is something I know from copious experience within the field.

Furthermore, beside boy's love, which is a POPULAR anomaly, I really have to say that gay (even flagrantly gay ones) don't show up as commonly or with more acception than they do elsewhere. I mean, sure they're in porn. But its frickin' smut. The whole world has gay porn, not just Japan. And there's definitely not a greater degree of incest in manga than elsewhere, which makes me wonder what manga Saber Cherry reads, because I only see that in pure smut, which again, is porn is prone to be hardly prostrate in proactively poking around those prickly purile issues all over the place. Its like saying S&M is more common over here, I don't think that's the case, its just that there's a whole shitload of smut. I really have to strenously disagree that incest shows up to greater degress and it certainly isn't something at all culturally accepted with most Japanese people.

I talk about my experience, because its warmer and less "adults with monocles in their eye" boring than talking about economics, market realities and all that sort of thing.

Perhaps it's better to approach it from another angle. In the US kids/teens saving the world is looked at as simply ridiculous. From what I've seen this narrative is culturally more accepted in Japan. Does that strike both of you as true, or as a distortion?

No, no, and no. The average reader tends to prefer the more everyday stories. Granted, there's always more exaggeration in manga and manga is a great deal of the time less realistic than other mediums by design, but I see again and again stories about struggling writers, genius scientists, divorced families, period pieces about politics or love stories and so on and so forth. Sports, cooking and mahjong for instance, are two rather huge general interest areas in manga, with the latter having some magazines dedicated specifically towards it and the former seemingly always having a representation somewhere in each magazine.

I will say they won't look at the same story with the same prejudice that seems to prevail over there, but then again, they're going to recognize the story most often for what it is and won't compare it to the more grounded stories out there. You don't get the phenomenon of (we're not talking otaku here) adults defending or watching Dragon Ball Z over here either. I suppose if you like that its cool, but everyone and their mother knows its for kids and things like the videogames are appeals to nostalgia.

In the case of videogames, I would say it is different. First of all, because, hello! Videogames aren't yet a ripe storytelling medium. If they were, they'd have topics much more closer to home more often, like Silent Hill or Zettai Zetsumei Toshi. And second, it only really prevails in RPGs. When you mention fighters like Sakura, its well-noted that in most fighters, there's always a kid or two amongst many adults, simply for the sake of variety.

To a certain extent, I think this is the case with RPGs as well. Where there is a case of children in the party, there's also usually a case of a really old party member as well, all in the interest of either providing a variety or trying to provide a "something for everyone" approach.

Next, the vast majority of characters pull in something close to the 15 - 21 range. I don't think its all that unbelievable that they would be able to do something about the state of the world as opposed to people more solidly in their 20s or 30s, at least by the age of 17, they've got all the strength and abilities that an average adult would have. On top of that, most of these games take place in medieval settings, where it certainly wasn't all that out of the ordinary to think of 14-16 years olds as adults. In fact, you often see "coming of age" ceremonies at the beginnings of these games where the person is officially recognized as an adult in the world of the game where we might not. This is not too terribly different to how young, say, the military age of many soldiers was throughout history in our world as well. (Note: I'm not saying the average age for all time was under 18, just that throughout history in settings comparable to where these games take place, its not out of the ordinary. I mean, hello, you have stuff like Joan of Arc.)

I think the most common character age is 17, though I have noticed in cases like with Cloud, who is 21, people (in other countries) who treat adult characters as if they were children because of the style in which they are rendered. My guess for the reason on this is so they can reach the widest demographic. Japanese adults are not going to balk at this most of the time because 1) its a video game 2) they are used to accepting all sorts things the rest of the world might not find as easy to accept and 3) I really think the perception is that nothing would change if the heroes were older, say, in their mid 20s.

Next, making the characters young is an easy way to give them an excuse as to why they can grow in their abilities as the game goes on, but at the start they are amateurs. You'll notice in genres, where this isn't the case, it doesn't happen as often.

Last but not least, when the game does skew younger, its often intentionally done so for the sake of the story. FFVIII was supposed to be a riff on Japanese high school cliches and romance stories, so it only makes sense that most of the party was high school age. Grandia is about invoking the wide-eyed wonder with which children look at the world, about romantic adventure and the excitement of exploration, so they used child characters. Earthbound was about nostalgia and 50s-era atmosphere, although that's a game with a lot more going on under the hood than your average RPG. Final Fantasy Tactics starts out showing the reason the main characters' motivations after a significantly scarring event in their late childhood and then moves forward later to when they are all adults. Dragon Quest V was about the generations of a family, so it started in childhood, moved through young adulthood, into fatherhood and back again. In Rockman.exe and Pokemon obviously don't really give a shit about their stories any further than providing a reason to play the game and give excuses to go into their dungeons.

Most of the time, there are a couple of teenagers or children in the party, but most of the characters are adults. To wit, FF, which always gets the most flack for it:

Final Fantasy - impossible to tell, they have no character and even though the character art doesn't show heroes that look really young, as I've said before, that's no sure bet in Japan

Final Fantasy II- The game really mentions youths, it doesn't really give an age and every fourth player character that joins you is an adult.

Final Fantasy III - Well, the first class is onion kid, but beyond that, again they have no personality.

Final Fantasy IV - Rydia joins as a girl, gets lost in the sea serpent scene and rejoins later after becoming an adult in her stewardship in the land of summoned monsters. Palom & Porom are children are all throughout. Everyone else is an adult.

Final Fantasy V - Everyone's an adult.

Final Fantasy VI - Terra is 17 years old and Relm is a little girl. Everyone else is an adult.

Final Fantasy VII - Yuffie's the only one underage, at 17.

Final Fantasy VIII - Mentioned above, though I guess you could say there's the Laguna crew and Edea.

Final Fantasy IX - Zidane, the princess are teenages, the blue-haired girl is a girl. Rest are adults.

Final Fantasy X - Rikku, Yuna and Tidus are 17, everyone else is an adult.

Which supports my theory that they do it to attract the widest possible demographic, in much the same way as young and sexy actors tend to attract more attention. Adults don't really feel any obstacle to identifying with the characters, since most of the time they don't act like children beyond the initial "you're an amateur, but now we know of your true power, we respect you" phase that inevitably comes in many of these games. And of course, younger people can relate to younger main characters too. And since the 20 and 30 somethings act similarly, its not like they are so different from the 15-21 year-olds that they are turned off by it.

None of this changes the fact that the world would be better off worrying about the quality of the writing and narrative regardless of how old the main characters are than harping over what essentially should be immaterial. Because whether or not the main character is a teenager or not has never much of an actual bearing on the quality of the story. Grandia's storytelling is actually way more accomplished than a great deal of other RPGs and games, for instance and that directly, specifically targets children as main characters. I've never noticed much of a difference in quality to the age of the main characters. Xenogears/Xenosaga, despite trying to stick mostly the type of stories adults like to read is a thousand times worse than Paper Mario or Mario & Luigi, which don't seem to mind at all being whimsical and childlike. (As obviously, there's a difference between like a child and childish.)

-Kitsune

Jasper

04-02-2005, 04:01 PM

Spider-Man is a high school student dumbass. He's a kid who finds out that with great power comes great responsibility. Star Wars also features a kid who saves the entire freaking universe from the Empire. How old do you think Luke is in Star Wars? The whole thing is about him growing up and facing his father.
I thought Peter Parker was older than that, earlier 20s. Same with Luke Skywalker.

Are you so insecure in your own maturity that you have to question any story revolving around youth?
*Sigh* Yes, obviously _that_ is the reason I disagree with you. Anyone who would disagree with you _must_ be insecure. Who put the chip on your shoulder?

And anyway, if you go back you'll notice that I'm not "questioning" stories that revolve around youth (there are plenty that I enjoy). I simply don't think the majority of western fiction or computer games fall into that catagory, and it has been my impression that a greater proportion of manga/anime/videogames coming out of Japan fall into that catagory. I don't really care one way or the other (as I can always read/play what I like), beyond the fairly narrow case that I find characters like Sakura in fighting games lame (simply because they break my suspension of disbelief).

nutsak

04-02-2005, 04:05 PM

F the blue-haired girl is a girl.

-Kitsune

Are you sure ?

extarbags

04-02-2005, 04:22 PM

Final Fantasy V - Everyone's an adult.

Awesome post, I just want to point out that one of the five playable characters in FFV is actually a little girl, who you get about 4/5 of the way through to replace the senior citizen you started with.

Justin Fletcher

04-02-2005, 04:52 PM

I thought Peter Parker was older than that, earlier 20s. Same with Luke Skywalker.
Parker started out as a high-school student in the 60s. Now, 40 years later, I'd say he's in his late twenties or thirties with a wife and kid. Restoring his appeal to the teen demographic was a large part of the reasoning behind the Ultimate Spider-Man title and the Ultimate line in general.

As for Luke, anyone who whines to his Uncle and Aunt like that must at least have the emotional age of a teen.

I simply don't think the majority of western fiction or computer games fall into that catagory, and it has been my impression that a greater proportion of manga/anime/videogames coming out of Japan fall into that catagory.
If it isn't just demographics, then my theory is that it's a different cultural influence than we've discussed. I'm no expert in these things, but everything I've ever seen geared for children in Japan has a level of maturity woven through it that you rarely see in the U.S. For example, the translated versions of some of the Gatchaman episodes I've seen have language and themes you'd never see in American children's animation today, let alone thirty years ago. When the villains are screaming "You will burn in hell!" or somesuch as people plummet from aircraft to their deaths, you know this hasn't received the tender loving care of the FCC.

Not that there aren't whimsical aspects, or down right cheese whiz moments, in Japanese media. But in my experience there seems to be an intrinsic respect given young characters in Japan that is unknown here. At least not since the heyday of Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn.

Thus, the lack of youth driven stories in the West come from this censored, often condescending view from creators or, more likely, the moral watchdogs of the nation. Children-centered stories here are generally full of cherubic automatons that have little resemblance to the real thing. So the appeal is limited in comparison to Asian counterparts. Less appeal, less demand. Less demand, less supply.

I'd argue that every child-based story in the last thirty years that was lauded by the West (and Americans specficially) had characters whose age wasn't held against them. Harry Potter is just the most famous example.

Saber Cherry

04-02-2005, 05:25 PM

[quote=Jasper]
Furthermore, beside boy's love, which is a POPULAR anomaly, I really have to say that gay (even flagrantly gay ones) don't show up as commonly or with more acception than they do elsewhere. I mean, sure they're in porn. But its frickin' smut. The whole world has gay porn, not just Japan. And there's definitely not a greater degree of incest in manga than elsewhere, which makes me wonder what manga Saber Cherry reads, because I only see that in pure smut, which again, is porn is prone to be hardly prostrate in proactively poking around those prickly purile issues all over the place.

Hmmm, I scanned through the AnimNFO top 200 ranked anime to see if I could draw some conclusions. I rarely read manga, as I like anime much more (music, color, and voices). And as I never read or watch any "smut," my conclusions were based entirely on mainstream anime. I have to admit that I found fewer titles than I expected with important characters in homosexual / incestuous relationships - or, more often, wishing they were :). However, there are some very recent ones like Kyou Kara Maou and Rozen Maiden, older ones like Galaxy Fraulein Yuna, less popular ones like W~Wish and Mahou Tsuki Tai... a large number, many of which are very good, none of which are pornographic or aimed at adults, but for some reason have not been voted into the top 200. They all have unusual love relationships (often very obvious and very one-sided) involving the main characters. Clamp is especially notorious for this. Discovering all the... "unconventional" relationships in Card Captor Sakura was very funny :)

As for "Kids fighting evil and/or saving the world"... here's a list, taken from the subset of AnimeNFO's top 200 that I have watched or read reviews of.

Please note: The below text contains spoilers for some of the best anime released, so read with caution.

**************************** SPOILER ****************************

3 Fullmetal Alchemist (2003)
Have not finished this, but as of halfway through, appears that the two teen/preteen protagonists are going to save the world... or at least, defeat the world's greatest evil.

6 Elfen Lied (2004)
I won't give any spoilers, but the most important characters are all teenagers, and one is threatening the world... but I don't know how it ends. There is incestuous love (between cousins).

7 Last EXILE (2003)
The world is saved by teenagers and a preteen.

8 Hikaru no Go (2001)
The Go world is rocked by a preteen.

11 Full Metal Panic? Fumoffu! (2003)
Sequel to Full Metal Panic, in which teenagers save the world.

14 Scrapped Princess (2003)
Teenager is needed saves the world.

15 Gundam SEED (2002)
Teenagers save the world, I believe. But I have not watched it.

18 Neon Genesis Evangelion (1995)
Teenagers save the world.

20 X TV (2001)
Never seen it... looks like a bunch of prettyboys fighting. Perhaps teenagers are clashing to save or destroy the world, but that's a guess.

21 Naruto (2002)
Preteens save their country, and depending on how the series turns out, maybe the world too.

22 Rahxephon (2002) 8.544 8.9 362
Only seen a few episodes, but it looks like a teenager saves the world, or Japan, or Tokyo, or something.

28 Full Metal Panic! (2002)
Teenagers save the world. Or, at least, destroy a "The Enemy," a powerful worldwide organization, and I can't quite remember its goal.

29 Chrno Crusade (2003)
Teenagers save the world, although one of them was actually an ancient demon that just takes the form of a little kid.

30 Love Hina (2000)
Nobody saves anything, but all the characters are teen / preteen, and there is an indication of incestuous love between Kaolla Su and her big brother.

31 12 Kokuki (2002)
Teenager saves her country.

34 Hunter X Hunter (1999)
Preteens (maybe teenagers?) fight the world's most powerful and evil organization. I assume they'll win...

35 Scryed (2001)
Main characters are mainly teenagers, and they fight about something wihch may be very important, but I have not seen much of it.

39 Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind (1984)
Only seen a few minutes of it, but the protagonist is a female teen (preteen?) who is Queen, and is trying to save her country, I think?

44 Princess Mononoke (1997)
Teenagers save the world... or save the spirit of Nature... or at least, they try their best.

45 Vision of Escaflowne (1996)
Teenagers save the world. Though to tell the truth, they don't do a very good job of it.

48 Vandread 2 (2001)
The main character is a teenager, but I've only watched the first 2 eps. of Vandread 1, so I'm not sure who he's saving from what.

50 Uchuu no Stellvia (2003)
Solar System is saved by teenagers.

51 Saikano (2002)
World is saved by a teenager.

53 Seikai no Monshou (1999)
Main characters are teenagers, and they fight a lot of people, but only save themselves.

56 Gunslinger Girl (2003)
Italy experiences a reign of terror under female preteen assassins.

59 Card Captor Sakura (1998)
Elementary students save the world from rampaging cards. "Unusual" love between: elementary girl and twentysomething teacher (they exhange a ring), Sakura's older brother and his male best friend, Sakura and her brother's best friend (4th grade and high school), Sakura's father and his high school student, Li Shaoran and Yukito (4th grade boy and high school boy), and... several others.

63 Bleach (2004)
Teenagers go to the spirt world to fight the Gods of Death. Flagrantly homosexual girl at school constantly hitting on another girl who is straight, in front of the entire class.

66 Noir (2001)
I honestly never figured out the overall plot. But one of two main characters is a teenage girl, and they fight an evil organization.

70 Witch Hunter Robin (2002)
Teenage girl saves England from witches... I think... but I only watched 3 eps.

74 R.O.D -THE TV- (2003)
A preteen is one of 3 people who save the world.

77 Mahoromatic (2001)
Preteen and ?? age robot save the world. No incest or homosexuality, but the elementary (or middle?) school teacher is constantly trying to have sex with the main character, who is roughly 12.

78 Inuyasha (2000)
Teenagers save the world from evil-inducing crystal shards.

80 Martian Successor Nadesico (1996)
World is saved by a spaceship crewed almost entirely by teenagers.

83 Mai HiME (2004)
Teenagers save the world (I think, waiting until ep. 26 comes out to watch it).

87 Ayashi no Ceres (2000)
Teenager fights against evil corporate entity. 15-year-old girl sleeps with her 20-something guardian.

88 Seikai no Senki (2000)
Main characters are teenagers, involved in a galactic battle... but I don't know how it ends.

92 Mahoromatic TV 2 (2002)
Same as Mahoromatic.

93 Excel Saga (1999)
Teenagers try to take over Japan for purposes of evil.

94 Akira (1988)
Teenager takes control of the world.

99 Kiddy Grade (2002)
Teenager and preteen save the galaxy? Only seen first episode...

101 Tenchi Muyo! OVA (1995)
Teenager saves the universe.

105 Evangelion: End of Evangelion (1997)
Only seen TV series, but I assume teenager saves the world.

107 Yakitate!! Japan (2004)
Preteen saves Japan from shame of not having a national bread.

109 Paranoia Agent (2004)
Preteen goes around mugging people.

115 Abenobashi Mahou Shotengai (2002)
Preteens explore a magical world.

117 Koi Kaze (2004)
Incestuous relationship develops between brother and sister.

119 Gundam Wing (1995)
Preteens save the... galaxy? Solar system? Just Earth?

121 D.C ~Da Capo~ (2003)
Teenagers develop love polygons, primarily a brother-sister incestuous relationship.

122 Fushigi Yuugi (1995)
Teenager saves the world.

127 .hack//Legend of Twilight Bracelet (2003)
Preteens save "The World". Incestuous feelings develop between brother and sister.

132 Gunparade March - Arata Naru Gyou Gunka (2003)
Teenagers save the world.

138 Flame of Recca (-)
Teenagers fight an evil organization

139 Slayers, The (1995)
Teenager saves the world.

144 NARUTARU (2003)
Preteens... use Pokemon to kill random people? Something like that; I have not seen it.

150 Card Captor Sakura Movie 2: The Sealed Card (2000)
Elementary girl continues to save the world from rampaging cards.

151 Tokyo Underground (2002)
Teenagers go underground to fight evil people.

154 Uninhabited Planet Survival (2003)
Preteens save themselves.

155 Slayers Next (1996)
Teenager saves the world.

184 Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz (1997)
Teenagers save the world, or galaxy,or something.

186 Onegai Twins (2003)
Incestuous love develops between brother and sister.

188 Gundam SEED Destiny (2004)
(assumption) Teenagers save the world.

189 3x3 Eyes (1992)
Teenagers fight the world's ultimate evil.

190 Gatekeepers 21 (2002)
Teenagers save the world.

192 Galaxy Angel (2001)
Teenagers save the galaxy from various things, most of which are not very dangerous.

193 Jubei-chan the Ninja Girl (2000)
Teenage master ninja fights evil.

196 Spiral ~Bond of Inference~ (2002)
Teenager is needed to save other teenagers from an evil organization.

197 Saber Marionette J (1996)
Teenagers save the world. Main character's best friend is flagrantly homosexual, and always hitting on him.

198 Marmalade Boy (1994)
Brother and sister fall in love.

200 Gatekeepers (2000)
Teenagers save the world.

************************ END SPOILER ****************************

extarbags

04-02-2005, 05:33 PM

Haven't seen all of those, but The Slayers? I can think of one peripheral character who is a teenager, that's it.

Edit: and Excel Saga? Excel is eighteen, so in a strict sense she's a teenager, but she's legally an adult in America. And every single other human character is at least into their twenties.

Another edit: Maybe Kitsune should comment on this, but I believe cousin-cousin relationships such as the one in Elfen Lied are legal in Japan.

Another another edit: Every character involved in the central action of X (almost) is an adult. The fighting game thing applies here, though, because there are like forty integral characters in X that all fight each other, so some variety is to be expected.

Jasper

04-02-2005, 06:14 PM

So, um, when's the new Fire Emblem out? ;-)

Anders Hallin

04-02-2005, 06:20 PM

Another another edit: Every character involved in the central action of X (almost) is an adult. The fighting game thing applies here, though, because there are like forty integral characters in X that all fight each other, so some variety is to be expected.
Kamui and Fuuma (and you should preferrably pronounce that in the breathy porn voice that Kamui does when Fuuma pushes him up against a wall) are both in high school, though. IIRC.

Kevin Grey

04-02-2005, 06:23 PM

Saber Cherry, aren't you really commenting on themes of anime that are popular in America than necessarilly the entire field in Japan which is obviously going to include titles that aren't translated here or just aren't of interest? It probably says more about our culture than their's.

Saber Cherry

04-02-2005, 07:38 PM

Haven't seen all of those, but The Slayers? I can think of one peripheral character who is a teenager, that's it.

Main character, Lina, is 15.

Edit: and Excel Saga? Excel is eighteen, so in a strict sense she's a teenager, but she's legally an adult in America. And every single other human character is at least into their twenties.

Well, yeah, she is a teenager, and I assume Hyatt is as well. And they're the primary characters. But it's slapstick, and not expected to be taken seriously... like, say, Gundams are. I just threw it in for fun, like Yakitate Japan, but they are not really "Save the world" or "Conquer the world" so much as "Strange comedy".

Another edit: Maybe Kitsune should comment on this, but I believe cousin-cousin relationships such as the one in Elfen Lied are legal in Japan.

I believe so, and in some US states, maybe. But to Western eyes they are generally seen as incestuous.

Another another edit: Every character involved in the central action of X (almost) is an adult. The fighting game thing applies here, though, because there are like forty integral characters in X that all fight each other, so some variety is to be expected.

Never seen it, only read the first manga book, so I can't somment, other than to say that most of the characters looked ~18-ish.

[quote="Anders Hallin"]Saber Cherry, aren't you really commenting on themes of anime that are popular in America than necessarilly the entire field in Japan which is obviously going to include titles that aren't translated here or just aren't of interest? It probably says more about our culture than their's.[quote]

Yes, that's true. But these are not disjoint sets; I think that the Japanese top 200 is quite similar to the American top 200, maybe sharing 70% of the titles... not to mention that, AnimeNFO's top 200 would be different than that from the users of some other websites. I tend to watch Japan's most popular shows right when they get fansubbed, though.

Kitsune

04-05-2005, 02:50 PM

Yeah, Saber Cherry, don't be an assquack. The question was is there lots of kids saving the world as a common theme, you pull a list from the internet based on mostly the opinions of complete geeks who download anime fansubs mainly, which is representative of what, .2% of the population and bound to be skewed to weird otaku tastes, which I am not all inclined to be positive about. And not only that you put up stuff like Princess Mononoke. Uh huh? What got saved? Hmm? The mining town? Environmentalism? The forest spirit? A way of life? Nothing did, but it was a violent conflict between a mining town and shamanistic forest. Not even close to kids to saving the world. And Full Metal Alchemist? A story about two youths trying to regain back what they lost in a misguided attempt to resurrect their mother and them running into what happens when ego and development run unchecked. The seven sins aren't even stereotypical villains and a grand total of no one and nothing is threatening the world. And Scryed? Oooh! A whole island in a show whose point is to develop two psychological poles on two characters and develop their conflict. Also, for people who have actually watched Koi Kaze, there isn't actually any incest, it is simply a show that examines immature dealings with love around the theme. Nothing untoward goes on in its entirety.

A story that happens to involve child or teenage characters, or embroil them in some kind of violent conflict does not equal anywhere close to the same thing as kids save the world.

You know, there is a top 100 list of Japanese anime compiled by a Japanese TV station, TV Asahi. Guess what? There are hardly any repeats between the animenfo list and that one. A vast majority of the shows were shown in the 80s and 70s, and very, very few hail from the 90s and only one that I can remember was in this millienium (Spirited Away). And no, teenagers or kids saving the world isn't a common theme on that list. I can't find it anymore, but they've seen done other listings, such as the top rankings ever for a single episode, favorite characters and favorite scenes. I went through the entire character list, and the only ones that fit in "teenagers or kids save the world" were four: Son Goku and Gohan from Dragon Ball at numbers 23 and 65, Mr. Aznable from Gundam at number 71 and Tetsuwan Atom at number 61. The other lists, such as most memorable moments and the actual top 100 are similarly few in such themes.

Another edit: Maybe Kitsune should comment on this, but I believe cousin-cousin relationships such as the one in Elfen Lied are legal in Japan.

I have no idea if that's true. As you can guess cousin-cousin stuff is the same, "Ewww, gross" that it is in the rest of the world, but I can guess it still goes on from time to time. *shrugs*

Final Fantasy V - Everyone's an adult.

Awesome post, I just want to point out that one of the five playable characters in FFV is actually a little girl, who you get about 4/5 of the way through to replace the senior citizen you started with.

Ah yes, forgot about that. Thanks!

Kitsune wrote:

F the blue-haired girl is a girl.

-Kitsune

Then nutsak wrote:

Are you sure ?

He he he, I think I meant to say a child, but I wouldn't mind if people thought of her as a blue-haired bow-in-the-hair boob who is just perfect for melting in vats of acid!

Jasper said: I don't really care one way or the other (as I can always read/play what I like), beyond the fairly narrow case that I find characters like Sakura in fighting games lame (simply because they break my suspension of disbelief).

Just wondering. In a game where a green brazillian with orange hair who wrestled with electric eels can shock you, there's a black guy with a blond mohawk with a hole in the middle, a guy with lightning-bolt-shaped hair, a lady who can ride psychic shock beams, all sorts of characters who can throw fireballs from their hands, ninjas who can teleport over the battlefield, another schoolgirl who arrives to the match via helecopter and people who extend their limbs many feet, why is Sakura the one that ruins your suspension of disbelief? :P

Kitsune wrote:
When the characters are meant to be emphatically non-Japanese its pretty obvious.

Anders Hallin said:

Yeah, that's when they're shifty, slanty-eyed Koreans.

He, he, he, very perceptive! Hopefully the breakdown of pop culture between the cultures will in the long term have some good effects. I'm really getting weary of the whole Japanese-Korean-Chinese triangle of racial bitching! Have you ever noticed though that Scandinavian and German characters get off really lightly compared to the way Americans and French are portrayed sometimes? Sometimes the British too, but that really varies.

Jason Lutes said:

I just read in the New Yorker profile of Miyazaki that the first manga characters with big round eyes were drawn by Osamu Tezuka of Astro Boy fame, and that he drew that way because he was a big fan of Betty Boop. I think the info came from one of Miyazaki's producers. Do you think that's a reasonable explanation, Kitsune?

I'm not sure whether it was specifically Betty Boop, or if she was one of the many among others who influenced Tezuka, but yeah, he did start the trend. The thing is it didn't stop with him and there's a lot to the whole "big eye" thing, I should write a thread about it in books forum one day. Its a pretty interesting issue actually.

-Kitsune

Jasper

04-05-2005, 03:18 PM

Matthew Gallant

04-05-2005, 03:20 PM

Wow, you are all kinds of dippy, Jasper.

Jasper

04-05-2005, 03:22 PM

Because I think one character in a fighting game is lame?! :roll:

Matthew Gallant

04-05-2005, 03:29 PM

Because I think one character in a fighting game is lame?! :roll:
No, but you can add to the list, "Don't know why you're dippy."

Jack Black

04-05-2005, 03:40 PM

Back, back Anime nerd.

They get aggressive when they smell blood or mention things like Cowboy Bebop.

Back!

Dave Long

04-05-2005, 03:44 PM

Firefly is the live action version of Cowboy Bebop. AND IT ROX!

--Dave

Jasper

04-05-2005, 03:53 PM

No, but you can add to the list, "Don't know why you're dippy."
Witty! I guess I'll settle for being a dip -- beats being an asshole with nothing to say.

Matthew Gallant

04-05-2005, 04:06 PM

Let me put it to you this way: Sakura is a schoolgirl. Sure she would normally be kind of weak. But Zangief is a giant Russian with a mohawk and manly, well-groomed facial and chest hair. How does anyone beat him? I mean, Ryu is just some comparatively tiny guy in a karate outfit. With a headband. So should everybody but Zangief not be in the game? Should it just be Zangief mirror matches?

I may be an asshole, but you're ridiculous, Jasper.

Jasper

04-05-2005, 04:25 PM

Dim Mak? Burning Fists? Electroshock? Psycho Power? Cyborg arms? Most of the characters are as over the top as Zangief. A uniformed school girl is just cute; perhaps you like cute characters, but I'll pass on the panty shots.

Besides, what's the big deal about having a character you don't like? Come on, do you like all the Street Fighter characters? Isn't there at least one you never enjoy playing, or get sick of seeing?

Matthew Gallant

04-05-2005, 04:27 PM

Oh, so now we've gone from Sakura "breaking your suspension of disbelief" to just not liking her?

Hmm.

Dippy.

Jasper

04-05-2005, 04:37 PM

Nice! Dodge my point, ignore that yours doesn't make sense, invent that I somehow disavowed my previous posts, and dish out a disdainfull insult! All in about a sentence -- your wit is just so sharp it cuts!

Sakura both breaks my suspension of disbelief (because all the other characters are so over the top powerfull), and I don't like her. Is that so difficult for you to understand?

Clearly you're just bent on being an asshole. Have fun!

Thrrrpptt!

04-05-2005, 04:42 PM

Holy cow. You two do realize how ridiculous you look having this argument, don't you? I mean, I just thought you should know...

Dave Long

04-05-2005, 04:53 PM

Jasper's the only one that looked ridiculous to me since he said one thing and then argued something else entirely.

Plus... it's a gaming messageboard. We fight about whether X-Wings can beat Y-Wings. Did you think you were somewhere else?

--Dave

Matthew Gallant

04-05-2005, 04:56 PM

Holy cow. You two do realize how ridiculous you look having this argument, don't you? I mean, I just thought you should know...
Your name is the sound of a tongue sticking out and you're behind the wheel of KILLDOZER.

Thrrrpptt!

04-05-2005, 05:02 PM

Plus... it's a gaming messageboard. We fight about whether X-Wings can beat Y-Wings. Did you think you were somewhere else?
Nope, if there's a place for this kind of thing, a gaming messageboard is it. The whole thing kind of struck me as absurd, though. I mean MORE absurd than usual.

Your name is the sound of a tongue sticking out and you're behind the wheel of KILLDOZER.
Touche.

Matthew Gallant

04-05-2005, 05:04 PM

I mean, everybody knows dozers are controlled with levers.

forgeforsaken

04-05-2005, 05:05 PM

Round 1: Fight!

Saber Cherry

04-06-2005, 05:21 AM

Holy cow. You two do realize how ridiculous you look having this argument, don't you? I mean, I just thought you should know...

Not as ridiculous as the arguments I get dragged into... and btw, I should note that in Japan, girls often have magical powers and talking animal companions. Beating up 150-kg Russian thugs is hardly out of the ordinary.

**************** Spoiler ****************

Spoiler for Koi Kaze. It's extremely good, not in any way pornographic, just... a bit disturbing to most people, and not for kids or people that preach about family values. Don't read this if you like anime and may some day watch it.

Also, for people who have actually watched Koi Kaze, there isn't actually any incest, it is simply a show that examines immature dealings with love around the theme. Nothing untoward goes on in its entirety.

Call me old fashioned, but I consider a blood-related brother and sister having sex (http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=11241&page=8&pp=20&highlight=kaze) (post 156) to be incest (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=incest&x=0&y=0). You consider it "immature dealings with love" that are not untoward. Poll time!

Me: Brother and sister having sex is incest.
Kitsune: Brother and sister having sex is not incest, it's just kids being silly. That's what onii-sama always told me...

Who's right?

**************** End Spoiler ****************

Kitsune

04-06-2005, 12:21 PM

Ah man, I wasn't able to catch it past episode 10 and simply assumed it would continue to be classy and demure. Well, there goes that one. Wish it wouldn't have.

Still doesn't change the fact that you are an assquack who likes Xenogears though.

-Kitsune

Kitsune

04-06-2005, 12:33 PM

Jasper said: I don't really care one way or the other (as I can always read/play what I like), beyond the fairly narrow case that I find characters like Sakura in fighting games lame (simply because they break my suspension of disbelief).
Just wondering. In a game where a green brazillian with orange hair who wrestled with electric eels can shock you, there's a black guy with a blond mohawk with a hole in the middle, a guy with lightning-bolt-shaped hair, a lady who can ride psychic shock beams, all sorts of characters who can throw fireballs from their hands, ninjas who can teleport over the battlefield, another schoolgirl who arrives to the match via helecopter and people who extend their limbs many feet, why is Sakura the one that ruins your suspension of disbelief? :P
Because all of those guys should be able to mop the floor with a character like Sakura? It doesn't help that Sakura is a dull character, not at all up to the par of other characters.

Oh, I totally disagree. She's one of my favorites because of her vivid personality. Here you have a high-spirited, high-energy, optimistic, happy-go-lucky, chasing a mopey, the-spirit-of-the-fight-is-everything serious martial arts moped like Ryu because she's infatuated with him to the point where she tries to learn his school of arts and only gets it off half-assed. I love the animations of things like her doing that jump attack where she flails her legs around in the air, or how her whirlwind kick is just this slight little twister that can't compare to Ken's or Ryu's and how when she wins and kicks, her shoe comes off and hits her on the head.

I think Sakura is second only to the legendary Chun Li and the only other Capcom fighter in the series (Darkstalkers is something else entirely) of females, right up with Elena from SFIII, who I also think is a great character design.

Of course you know, if Sakura was more serious, there's no good reason why she couldn't kick the other street fighters' asses. Does Karin bother you as much as Sakura?

-Kitsune

Jasper

04-06-2005, 01:57 PM

[I'll ignore the other guys, and give you a straight answer, since you seem genuinely curious -- although I'm not quite sure why my fighting game tastes should prove interesting! Cross cultural curiosity?]

Fair enough. I mean it's a matter personal opinion, so we're bound to disagree somewhere. You like the cute aspect, I don't (I'm curious, do you also like Dan?). Characters like Chun Li and Elena are great; hell even Mika is fine. Understand that while "cute teen protagonists" may not be so common in Japan manga/anime, it is exceedingly common in the stuff that makes it to the US, and anymore I just find it banal. May as well add Minmay singing in the background.

Part of it also is that she (at first) came off to me as yet another Ken/Ryu clone, and I've long been sick of playing against Ryu in his various incarnations _all_ the time. Back in the day he was easily the most common opponent. Another part is her moves don't look like they'd hurt her opponents.

I'm not particularly a fan of Karin, but I like the way she plays much better, her moves look practiced (like they'd hurt), and she doesn't have that annoying "cute spunky girl" attitude. The only thing about her that gets to me is her funky Fierce Punch with bizarre priority and a "bowing" animation that doesn't look like an attack.

Kitsune

04-06-2005, 04:41 PM

[I'll ignore the other guys, and give you a straight answer, since you seem genuinely curious -- although I'm not quite sure why my fighting game tastes should prove interesting! Cross cultural curiosity?]

The other question is why wouldn't your opinions be interesting and why wouldn't I be interested in hearing about them? Seems silly to think otherwise...*shrugs*

You like the cute aspect, I don't (I'm curious, do you also like Dan?). Characters like Chun Li and Elena are great; hell even Mika is fine. Understand that while "cute teen protagonists" may not be so common in Japan manga/anime, it is exceedingly common in the stuff that makes it to the US, and anymore I just find it banal. May as well add Minmay singing in the background.

Well, I don't like Sakura because she's cute, I like her because her manner is fetching and she's got a great goofy attitude which is a little more fresh to the fighting circuit than brooding, low-voiced, high-muscled fighter number 17. There are humorous characters in fighting games of course, but very few who seem to enjoy their goofiness and silliness. Maybe Joe from King of Fighters and...Bridget from Guilty Gear. I like Elena because despite the fact that she's wearing practically nothing, she still seems classy and confident, and completely uninterested in being a seductress. Not that there's anything wrong with those types of characters, like I said, Darkstalkers...

But in general, I like the SNK female fighters better. Blue Mary is just as classic as Chun Li if not more so and Mai is just hilarious. But then there's all the other great characters, like Nakoruru, Vice, Mature, Athena, Vanessa and B. Janet. I feel SNK in general makes more compelling characters than Capcom in fighting games, so yes, of course I like Dan.

Also, sorry, what? Did I say cute teen characters were uncommon? No, I just said them saving the world is an uncommon theme. There aren't so many male cute teen characters, true, but there are sure a ton of female ones even over here, even for all sorts of material devoted more toward adults. But then again, that's probably not so unusual. I mean, its just a question of where. In the US, you have/had Lindsay Lohan, Britney Spears and the Olsen Twins and all that type of stuff and over here, WE HAVE BOTH! :P Ha ha, bet you didn't expect that sentence to end that way.

Part of it also is that she (at first) came off to me as yet another Ken/Ryu clone, and I've long been sick of playing against Ryu in his various incarnations _all_ the time.

Though you have to admit, part of the appeal lies in riffing on that very phenomenon. Though I think there's a difference of opinion, the very reason why there are so many Ryu/Ken knock-offs is because the style they represent is so common and often lends itself to familiar interpretation, rather than more unique, less popular martial artists/arts. If you're going to make games around the limitations of the current fighting genre, including one is kind of like covering all your bases. Though, yes, they don't have to be so blatant.

That's the thing about Sakura, not only is her design a comment on that trend, but schoolgirl who doesn't quite get it and whose moves are parodies and half-assed versions of someone else's, especially back when she was introduced, was a lot more fresh, then say, Sean. Though I like him too.

-Kitsune

Jasper

04-06-2005, 05:32 PM

That's the thing about Sakura, not only is her design a comment on that trend, but schoolgirl who doesn't quite get it and whose moves are parodies and half-assed versions of someone else's, especially back when she was introduced, was a lot more fresh, then say, Sean. Though I like him too.
That really highlights what rubs me wrong about Sakura. Her moves are clearly "parodies and half-assed versions of someone elses's", yet she's just as competitive as the other fighters. I'm all for parody of Ryu, but it gets old quickly.

Kitsune

04-10-2005, 10:03 PM

:shock:

The commercial is up on Nintendo's page. You can watch it here. (http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ngc/gfej/gamemode/gfej_cm.wmv) I suggest you do. It has some amazing footage in it, especially the attack animations, which, thankfully seem have just as much flair as the 2D games. Yippee!

Lots of new info and more clarity on old info, too. So let's go!

First, the skill system. It will be similar to the system used Genealogy of the Holy War and Trachia 776. Each character will have a capacity and each skill will carry a certain number of points. You can equip as many as can fit in their capacity and you can also release them, but apparently, you primarily get them from battlefield items. Some skills will be confined to only certain skills.

In addition, there's a brand new type of skill that changes things up quite a bit. Apparently, if you equip this skill in their capacity the character will learn a character or class specific attack that brings their hidden capabilities. The skill's name is Secret Technique and I suppose there will be lots of variations depending on who equips, similar to support levels.

Other revealed skills include:

-Ambush, which always gives the unit the first strike even when attacked by enemies and not starting initiative.
-Prayer, which will sometimes enact when dealt a deathblow by an enemy. In the cases when it does, instead of dying the unit will lose half their HP.
-Link, add an extra attack whenever you initiate the attack, as if you had twice the speed of a unit. In the older games, if you had twice the speed AND this skill...
-Rage, if your HP are at half or below, there is a chance the character will fly into a rage and attack with a critical hit without taking damage when attacked.
-Provocation, a unit with this skill will be always be targetted first by the enemy, allowing you to play cat and mouse on the battlefield. Let me tell you, this is one fun skill to use! :D
-Power Hit, a selectable attack if you equip it. It allows you to have a much higher chance to critical attack at a severe loss to your accuracy.
-Shadow, Folker's unique skill, as its name suggests, it makes him hard to hit.

The revealed base commands will be available a little while into the game and will you allow you to spend bonus exp earned in battle at your leisure to level up character, de-equip or equip skills, enact support conversations (apparently you deploy them together in battle, then come to this menu at certain points of the game. A handy chart gives you choices to have conversations with, how good your relationship, the level of the support and how many you have left. Sounds more user friendly in general.), talk to councilors, each with a rating for their helpfulness of advice (an expansion of the fortunetellers in earlier games) and access the regular Fire Emblem basic game manipulation commands. Added to this menu, will be a weapon customization menu wherein you change stats like weight or rate of critical hit somehow (not revealed how yet, looks like you have to pay for it and it might have downgrades on other stats) and customize the look of your weapon.

Revealed unit include:

Rangers
Lords
Swordsmen
Sword Masters
Pikemen
Halbediers
Soldiers
Warriors
Archers
Snipers
Armor Knights
Bow Knights
Axe Knights
Spear Knights
Sword Knights
Generals
Paladins
Birdmen
Beastmen
Dragoners

None of the magic classes have been revealed yet.

And that's it for now and probably until its release date ten days from now!

-Kitsune

Angie Gallant

04-10-2005, 10:50 PM

I need asses to kick to make sure this comes out over here as soon as effing possible.

Jason Lutes

04-11-2005, 12:26 AM

I need asses to kick to make sure this comes out over here as soon as effing possible.
And I will lend a boot to the cause.

Thanks for the goods, Kitsune. This is easily my most anticipated game at present.

Jasper

04-11-2005, 11:39 AM

I don't feel (quite) so bad about having a Gamecube now! The video link you provided was solid (are the characters voiced as well, I wonder?), and your description makes the gameplay sound better than the GBA Fire Emblem (7), which I had a bunch of fun playing.

This has quickly moved up my list of anticipated Games, just behind Jade Empires.

Jason Lutes

04-21-2005, 10:41 PM

New gameplay movies. (http://media.cube.ign.com/media/001/001982/vids_1.html)

Kevin Grey

04-22-2005, 12:27 AM

BTW it was just released in Japan. Several people over on Gaming-Age have been supplying some impressions (positive of course).