Need your help: Icewind Dale 2 or Baldur's Gate 2? [Archive]

Tom Chick

12-31-2002, 06:08 AM

Okay, I'm thinking of playing through either IWD2 or BG2 and it's expansion. I know the former is more combat-oriented and the latter is more RPGey. If I'm not mistaken, it seems that BG2 *isn't* 3E D&D, so I'm leaning towards IWD. Other than that, do any of you guys have strong feelings one way or the other about which is better?

I've only played a little bit of the originals, so I'm essentially coming to them with a tabula rasa.

-Tom

Tom Chick

12-31-2002, 06:15 AM

Whoa. In a Gone Gold thread, I found this link to a Baldur's Gate 2 mod site (http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~weimer/bgate/). Some of that stuff looks really nifty!

Maybe I shouldn't be so fussy about BG2 not using 3E rules. Now I really need you guys' help. IWD2 or BG2?

-Tom

JeffL

12-31-2002, 07:00 AM

Tom - I got an RPG jones, and had all of those lying around here, and I actually installed all 3 (NWN, IWD2, BG2 plus expansion) and started them. BG2 is the one that I found myself wanting to play - the one I caught myself thinking about when I wasn't playing. I haven't made it all the way through (I meander through RPGs, which is why I could never review them) but I'm having a blast. And that mod web page is cool - I just installed the couple of recommended mod/patches.

FWIW

Robert Sharp

12-31-2002, 07:18 AM

As far as Infinity Engine games go, I can't really tell the difference between 2nd and 3rd edition rules bases. The gameplay is basically the same. The only real difference is in how the characters are developed (i.e. there are no feats in BG2). BG2 DOES have the sorcerer and monk kits, and with mods, you can have even more kits. That's partly a 3rd edition thing, and the rules for monks/sorcerers seem to be the same or similar to the 3rd ed. rules.

IWD2 is more linear, which is not necessarily bad. BG2 has more side quests, and your decisions matter a lot more. That gives it a more RPG feel, as you said yourself above. The combat plays out the same though. The weapons, classes, spells...all the same. I wouldn't base my decision on which rules edition it uses. Go with what sounds more compelling from a story perspective.

Anonymous

12-31-2002, 07:19 AM

BG2 is the deeper and longer game. It is more of an RPG than IWD2. It has many user-made expansions now that will extend its replay value. The site you listed above is one of many.

However, IWD2 does use the 3rd edition rules. It's also a little more polished (interface, dialogue, flexibility).

I have both, and so far, I've gotten more out of BG2. Go for that. :D

MrAngryFace

12-31-2002, 08:30 AM

IWD2 has the hardcore tactical strategy!

Of course i've always liked IWD over the BG series. Get to the bloodspilling sequences! Tired of talky talky with lame but comical support characters!

olaf

12-31-2002, 08:55 AM

BG2 is awesome. ToB is not. I finished BG2 twice. I finished ToB not at all.

IWD2 is a nice game also, but it has some really tedious puzzly type things that make the game drag in spots.

olaf

MrAngryFace

12-31-2002, 09:00 AM

IWD2 has awesome amounts of insane combat. Oh yes.

Kool Moe Dee

12-31-2002, 09:09 AM

BG2 is awesome. ToB is not. I finished BG2 twice. I finished ToB not at all.

Wow, I thought ToB was excellent -- an expansion that had lots of content, streamlined the gameplay (pocket plane!!!!), and nicely wrapped up the storyline of the BG games. It sounds silly, but it was kind of nice to have actual closure for my character, whom I had brought painstakingly through the original game, its expansion, then BG2.

Gordon Cameron

12-31-2002, 09:11 AM

BG2 all the way. BG2 is the best CRPG since the heydays of Ultima, in my opinion.

Anonymous

12-31-2002, 09:21 AM

Coincidentally,I just started BG2 again the other day.I bought it on release,but had to take a break about 20% into it and never got back to it.It's very good,but I haven't played IWD,so I can't compare.The mods look really cool,thanks for posting that!

Desslock

12-31-2002, 10:32 AM

BG2 is more of a time commitment, but it's well worth the effort -- a truly amazing RPG, and the best game of 2000, in my opinion. I loved it and the expansion pack.

On the 3rd/2nd Edition point -- as others have mentioned, there's really little difference between IWD2 and BG2. IWD2 has the improved multiclassing and the improved 3rd Edition character development system, but BG2 has the 3rd Edition classes as well, and neither game incorporates the 3rd Edition combat rules (unlike Neverwinter Nights or Pool of Radiance2).

Combat in BG2 is very tactical -- the mage duels are a lot of fun.

Murph

12-31-2002, 11:02 AM

I voted for NWN. :-)

But between BG2 and IWD2, I'd also go with BG2. The expansions adds some great stuff -- not just in terms of the plot, but also some great equipment -- although I never quite finished it, either. Gameplay in the expansion is a bit more linear than the main game.

Tyjenks

12-31-2002, 11:17 AM

Damn Tom. Every thread here eventually winds up being a BG2 v. IWD2 debate. Too lazy to read those. :wink:

I guess something can be said for consolidating everyone's scatterred thoughts into one thread.

BG2: 1 vote

xahlt

12-31-2002, 11:38 AM

Another vote for BG2.

Qenan

12-31-2002, 11:39 AM

Another vote for BG2. I liked the characters and all the side quests.

Matt Perkins

12-31-2002, 11:46 AM

The biggest reason I'd suggest IWD2 over BG2 is that Dale uses 3E. No prestige classes, but the rest of it is there. Makes all the difference when customizing your characters each level. Other than that, BG2 wins in the NPCs department (you ask them to join as you go, you don't create them at the start), and in the side quest department (in chapter 2 only).

Biggest problem I had with BG2...after chapter 2, it's a lot like IWD, a very big long slugfest and I didn't take as much enjoyment from the story of BG2 as I do IWD2 (though, I only made it a few chapters through so far).

Gordon Cameron

12-31-2002, 11:48 AM

Chapter Six (Underdark) had some of the same feel of Chapter 2, albeit in miniature.

SpoofyChop

12-31-2002, 12:02 PM

Well, FWIW, I hated BG2.

It felt way too much like work for some reason. I got to a certain "obstacle" about halfway through the game and I was so disgusted by how artificial and lame it was that I simply stopped playing it and traded it in at EB.

I love a good RPG with a story, but if you're gonna put in a complex storyline, it had better rock. Great gameplay and a great story are what made Fallout, Baldur's Gate I, and Planescape so awesome. BGII was an also-ran in my book.

I loved the original IWD, and since it sounds like IWD2 is similar then I'd say go with that instead. Just a dungeon romp...pure fun.

xahlt

12-31-2002, 12:58 PM

Hmm, maybe, but I don't like my dungeon romps forced along linear paths with set battles. To me, a good old fashioned dungeon romp connotes some degree of randomness or choices in what to tackle or who to fight first, and neither IWD gave me much of that.

Bub, Andrew

12-31-2002, 01:32 PM

BG2 stars David Warner. Which is something I consider a big fat plus. But IWD2 features the tactical RTS combat a wargamer like you (Tom Chick) would probably appreciate. BG2 features character interaction and love possibilities you've already disdained, apparently sight unseen.

BG2 features better storytelling and some nice freedom of choice when it comes to quests outside the main one. You can spend about 40 hours bopping along in Chapter 2 just having fun. And I recommend you do. IWD2 is very linear but, again, terrain and party management is more like a game like Myth, making IWD2 a superior strategy game while BG2 is the better role-playing game.

Ben Sones

12-31-2002, 02:11 PM

I know that the Icewind Dale games have a dedicated following, but I think Baldur's Gate 2 is a far superior game to any of them. So that would be my recommendation.

You've already played Morrowind, right?

Troy S Goodfellow

12-31-2002, 05:34 PM

BG2 is the best choice here. IWD2 is a great game - the 3rd edition rules really open up the flexibility of the classes. But BG2 is better plotted, more interesting and better paced.

If you aren't too keen on plots or character, these parts of BG2 may not appeal to you. Fortunately, it's also a better tactical combat game than IWD2, as spellcasters are more likely to rely on spell-penetration and counter-spell warfare. IWD2 spells are all about buffing and whacking so there's not much room for that frenzied moment in BG2 when you realize you only have one Breach spell left.

Troy

MrAngryFace

12-31-2002, 07:26 PM

ICEWIND DALE II!

Desslock

01-01-2003, 12:45 AM

ICEWIND DALE II!

You still only get one vote, slick (and you're the only vote yet for IWD2, although you voted twice).

mtkafka

01-01-2003, 02:31 AM

I'd go with BG2... its got an epic feel to it and it feels like playing classic DnD modules all in one game. I still havent finished IWD2, but its still pretty good. Actually most of the combat in IWD 2 (on normal) is alot more challenging than BG2... mostly because good weapons and armor is hard to come by, at least up to chpater 3 which is where I am at in the game. Though I made a pretty crappy party without ANY fighters and have a monk and druid as my tanks (monks are done much better in BG2 and NWN). anyway, both are good games... cant lose with either. play em both!

etc

MrAngryFace

01-01-2003, 08:17 AM

Icewind Dale II Gives me a 40 x Multiplyer!

Alan Au

01-01-2003, 11:18 AM

IWD2 is a fine piece of work to be sure, but BG2 has more personality, if a game can have such a thing.

- Alan

Drunkagain

01-01-2003, 12:35 PM

BG2 for me. One of the besr rpg's I've ever played! And I'm also in the camp that enjoyed the TOB expansion.

The real question is what did Dave C. vote? :D

Tom Chick

01-01-2003, 02:18 PM

Okay, Baldur's Gate 2 it is! I'm in the second chapter now and there are a few things I'm disappointed with.

* This is a sequel with established characters, so I should have seen this coming, but I miss not being a part of a character's early progression. I think there's more of a sense of accomplishment when everyone starts out at 1st level.

* I do miss some of the 3E rules, not just because the character progression is so dull without them (ooh, new hit points!), but also for some of 3E's rules of combat, weaponry, armor classes, and saving throws. I'm reminded that pre-3E AD&D was really clunky.

* Some of the interface things bug me, like the hard-coded spell and item slots in the quick tool bars. And some of those spell animations are really overbearing! Entangle and Color Spray should be renamed Obscure.

* The Freedom Force Combat Syndrome is in full effect. You pause a battle with a half dozen characters and forget who's already engaged and what they're doing: "Oh, I'm sorry, do you aleady have orders? Yes? What about you? You there, are you busy with something? Have you finished that spell yet? Good lord, how much time do you need for that thing?"

Now that I'm out of what I presume was the training dungeon, I'm looking forward to it. I like what they've set up with Imoen and the prison break, which gives the narrative an effective motivation (rescue Imoen) and basis (figure out what David Warner was up to and what he was talking about).

I guess now I have to run around and fetch stuff for townspeople and clear rats (or whatever the 8th level equivalent would be) out of basements for a while, which is okay. I just wish there was more meat in the level progression to drive the questing.

Thanks for the recommendations and I look forward to more discussion (no spoilers, please!...Bub, I'm talkin' to you).

-Tom

Tyjenks

01-01-2003, 02:23 PM

Okay, Baldur's Gate 2 it is! I'm in theu have seen this coming, but I miss not being a part of a character's early progression. I think there's more of a sense of accomplishment when everyone starts out at 1st level.

Initially, this was a big drawback for me, too. I much prefer starting from scratch since character development/advancement are half the fun in an RPG for me. Maybe that's why I never made ot all the way through.

Bub, Andrew

01-01-2003, 02:28 PM

Aah. You wound me with your careless barbs. No spoilers here buddy.
There's a lot of advice to give. Anyone who has played the game all the way through probably has their own recommendations for whom to recruit into your party - I say, go for balance. Remember, most of the time you can choose to abandon someone to gain a new personalized quest (each character comes with their own custom quest).

The best advice I can give you Tom is take your time. Chapter 2 is chock full of optional quests, just remember that the main quest will wait for you. The only problem is, if you pursue the main quest on to Chapter 3 you'll get locked onto a (mostly) linear path and won't have access to the cool Chapter 2 stuff for a long, long, time. Also, remember, the game cleverly ups the difficulty to match your power, so don't get any ideas that doing ALL the optional stuff will make you better prepared for the ending.

* I do miss some of the 3E rules, not just because the character progression is so dull without them (ooh, new hit points!), but also for some of 3E's rules of combat, weaponry, armor classes, and saving throws. I'm reminded that pre-3E AD&D was really clunky. "

I know, you miss the double-bladed axes. I empathize.

Desslock

01-01-2003, 03:09 PM

I know, you miss the double-bladed axes. I empathize.

What's wrong with double-bladed axes?

DaveC

01-01-2003, 04:32 PM

BG2 for me. One of the besr rpg's I've ever played! And I'm also in the camp that enjoyed the TOB expansion.

The real question is what did Dave C. vote? :D

Between IWD2 and BG2 I pick BG2. It's an incredible game and provides an amazing amount of adventure.

P.S. - Since I worked on the game my opinion is invalid.

mtkafka

01-02-2003, 04:32 AM

graller

01-02-2003, 04:42 AM

Tom all I can say is make sure you play a male lead character and get Viconia in your party....Best.Dialogue.Evar - Annoying I know but oh so true.

Troy S Goodfellow

01-02-2003, 08:36 AM

I will have to give IWD2 one notable advantage over BG2... the tactical AI in IWD2 seems much more challenging. Not until the last few areas in BG2 and ToB did the tactical game challenge me... it was always summon summon and whatever spell counters the area (Chaos Free? in flayer dungeon) for me. One thing IWD2 succeds in doing is give the tactical battle challenge right from the start. In chapter 2 I reloaded many of the battles in the ice temple tons of times, tryung different tactics... something to think about!

The truly great thing about the IWD2 battles is the terrain/room variety. Even if the opponents are similar/identical from one battle to the next, the encounter area is often vastly different, with crevasses, bridges, tower archers...the map work in this baby is something to behold. I had to reload a number of battles, too, but I think that was more because I was one fighter short than because I was doing much wrong. Both IWD games put a premium on tanks, making a traditional balanced party a bit of a liability.

Summoning is also the key to success in IWD, though, so its not quite fair to call this a downside of BG2/ToB. Fortunately for IWD, the best enemies also summon a lot of stuff, with none of this "kill the summoner to kill the summoned" that you get in NWN. I'm not sure what the true 3rd edition rule on this is (I'm an AD&D brat), but it seemed a bit of a copout to me.

Troy

Jaysun

01-02-2003, 09:03 AM

I will have to give IWD2 one notable advantage over BG2... the tactical AI in IWD2 seems much more challenging. Not until the last few areas in BG2 and ToB did the tactical game challenge me... it was always summon summon and whatever spell counters the area (Chaos Free? in flayer dungeon) for me. One thing IWD2 succeds in doing is give the tactical battle challenge right from the start. In chapter 2 I reloaded many of the battles in the ice temple tons of times, tryung different tactics... something to think about!

Also BG2 is still better, only because a Kensai/Mage rocks! Talk about munchkin characters! This is the one!

etc

You know, with the exception of the Hook Horror part of IWD2 (just throw mass amounts of Hook Horrors out of nowhere at the player), I really like how they made some really hard tactical encounters, many of them a fight on two fronts. Putting the mages in the back isn't always the safest thing anymore and I usually have one of my warriors back there just in case.

MrAngryFace

01-02-2003, 09:49 AM

IWD2 friggin rules. Strategy Get!

olaf

01-02-2003, 10:31 AM

Okay, Baldur's Gate 2 it is! I'm in the second chapter now and there are a few things I'm disappointed with.

* This is a sequel with established characters, so I should have seen this coming, but I miss not being a part of a character's early progression. I think there's more of a sense of accomplishment when everyone starts out at 1st level.

Yeah that does suck, but it beats playing through BG to get to BG2, IMO.

* I do miss some of the 3E rules, not just because the character progression is so dull without them (ooh, new hit points!), but also for some of 3E's rules of combat, weaponry, armor classes, and saving throws. I'm reminded that pre-3E AD&D was really clunky.

Agree again. 3E beats the hell out of 2E for my money. Feats and skills rule (although no CRPG has really done skills well yet IMO). What I really need someone to make is a spiritual successor to BG2 done in 3E.

* The Freedom Force Combat Syndrome is in full effect. You pause a battle with a half dozen characters and forget who's already engaged and what they're doing: "Oh, I'm sorry, do you aleady have orders? Yes? What about you? You there, are you busy with something? Have you finished that spell yet? Good lord, how much time do you need for that thing?"

I would much prefer a pure turn based combat system, but after a while you get used to the BG2 combat. About 3/4 of the way thru the game it becomes tedious to an extent because combat becomes a game of stripping the protections off the other guy's casters and killing them more than anything else. And because of the way 2E works you really need a flow chart of 4 spells to cast and if you dont have them up or available, your party will likely get chunked.

olaf

Anonymous

01-02-2003, 12:35 PM

And because of the way 2E works you really need a flow chart of 4 spells to cast and if you dont have them up or available, your party will likely get chunked.
olaf

To figure out which spells to cast, read http://members.chello.nl/~j.vanthull/BG2SR/Home.htm

After reading this reference, I just had to replay BG2 with a spellcaster-heavy party :)

Sean Tudor

01-02-2003, 01:06 PM

Desslock

01-02-2003, 02:34 PM

To figure out which spells to cast, read http://members.chello.nl/~j.vanthull/BG2SR/Home.htm

After reading this reference, I just had to replay BG2 with a spellcaster-heavy party :)

In my Throne of Bhaal strategy guide, I couldn't resist throwing in a bunch of that stuff for BG2 as well -- there's a good chart on this page: http://gamespot.com/gamespot/guides/pc/bg2_expansion/p3_01.html

Anonymous

01-02-2003, 03:43 PM

I visited my local CompUSA today, and they've got $15 off IWD2. Damn.... so, so tempted. It's only until Jan. 4.

The problem is that SimCity4 comes out on the 14th, and I've got a really limited budget this month. So $35 for IWD2 or $50 for SC4, and I rationalized that IWD2 will hit the bargain bins soon enough. But grrrrr.... reall was tempted.

graller

01-03-2003, 05:52 AM

You blew it IWD2 is worth 50 much less 35 dollars.

Spoiler!!

Did anyone else get the Holy Avenger? That was one tough fight. Definitely the hardest I have had so far. Had to rework my spell lists twice to get the right protections and critter support up and running. And who I had to take out first and I still lost one of my two mages....

Love my Party:
Half Orc Fighter
Human Paladin
Human Ranger
Dwarf Cleric
2 Elven Mages...

Slothrop

01-03-2003, 06:33 AM