Marriage - a dying concept [Archive] - Quarter To Three Forums

Sean Tudor

07-04-2002, 04:12 AM

This may seem like a strange subject but anyway ...

It seems many of my personal friends and online acquaintances are having problems with their marriages - big problems. They are either separating, divorcing, or seeking councelling.

It has become especially bad during the last 12 months. It seems that marriage is no longer something that holds up no matter how bad things get. Maybe it is because of the immense stress of lack of employment opportunities.

Many of my friends have been retrenched from their jobs this past year because of the tech wreck. Three close friends are seeking a divorce. They each have children.

I know in this country (Australia) marriages are hitting a 50% divorce rate. Is marriage totally pointless these days ? What is the point of marrying if you run away at the first sign of trouble or hardship ? Is the search for the almighty dollar ruining marriage ? Are material possessions taking precedence over love and friendship ?

JeffL

07-04-2002, 05:45 AM

I can only speak for my own - we'll have 22 wonderful years in a couple of weeks. We've gone through poor times, good times, lots of money, "what are we going to do about our lack of money?", births, deaths, incredible joy and sorrows that made us ache. We often have pissed each other off, argued/fought, and -gasp- gone to bed angry.

But all of that has made us closer than ever, and I love her so much that I realize I didn't even know what love was when we were married. The key is that our marriage isn't based on a "me-me-me" foundation. We've seen marriages of friends fall apart because one of the spouses felt "they weren't getting what they needed" from the marriage. It's a self-centered world these days, and that's murder on marriages.

AIM

07-04-2002, 07:32 AM

Yep, in America people just don't get married anymore. Or if they do, they usually end up divorced within a 5 -10 year span. American's are allways looking for that quick fix. If the marriage isn't working, then it's divorce time. Even though they could probably save their marriage with a little understanding and support. Times do get tough but you need to work through them, and Americans do not want to do this.

Also... Let's talk about why caucasian american's aren't having children anymore. Or they are waiting until they reach their late 20's or early 30's to have children. It seems to me that we have become selfish. I'm 32 yrs. old, and I can name a ton of my friends and acquaintances that have zero children. During my parents generation, an average household had 3-4 children. But not anymore. It seems that the minorities of america (mexicans, puerto ricans and african americans) are leaving us in the dust when it comes to the production of children. Christ, I'm very good friends with a puerto rican female and her sister just had her 4th child. And she's only 27 years old. No wonder were expected to be the minority in 20-30 years.

So... It pretty much all ties together. In my opinion, working and obtaining materalistic items is what matters to the majority of americans, while marriage and having children take a back seat. It's sad.

Matthew Gallant

07-04-2002, 07:39 AM

People who have children are the selfish ones.

chet

07-04-2002, 08:19 AM

Ah yes, I remember vactioning in Beautiful Europe where there is a zero divorce rate, oh wait, no I don't, because while we have a higher rate, most European countries are only a few percentage points behind us.

Why are they behind us? You are right, it has everything to do with quick fixes - keeping a mistress is much more accepted in Europe than America.

But really what does it matter, AIM was so busy to make his anti-america (boy do we suck!) post he didn't notice Sean lives in Australia.

And bravo for having the nerve to say what we are all thinking. Everyone should be having more kids! The younger the better. Don't have a job yet? Can't provide for your child? Don't worry - get the kids first, worry about providing for their enviroment later. I am with you on this one, if I had kids when I was 16, I could have them working in the fields now and be rich living off their wages. How stupid of me! Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.

Chet

Mark Asher

07-04-2002, 09:39 AM

There's less of a stigma to being divorced nowadays and many families are two-income families and thus splitting up is easier.

Also, without a doubt children help keep marriages together as the focus is shifted from the husband-wife relationship to caring for the well being of the children. Many couples are waiting longer to have kids and end up divorcing before they have kids. (I'd argue that kids are the primary reason to get married in the first place. If you don't plan on having kids, why not just live together?)

Is divorce bad? What's the alternative? Continue to live with someone who makes you unhappy? That seems bad. If no kids are involved, then all that's at stake is money. Seems silly to keep a bad relationship together over money.

Met_K

07-04-2002, 01:08 PM

I wonder where SiNNER is. I'd like to see a three-way no-holds-barred ladder-cage-glass-thing match between him, Chet, and AIM.

Jason McCullough

07-04-2002, 01:22 PM

'Also... Let's talk about why caucasian american's aren't having children anymore.'

Cleve? Is that you?

Murph

07-04-2002, 04:50 PM

As someone who is in the midst of the worst problems his marriage -- and indeed his life -- has ever seen, I want to make it known that I have no intention of throwing in the towel, and neither does my wife...At least, most of the time. Sometimes she's less sure.

But I agree that selfishness is the heart of the problem with most people. Probably with us. We both made selfish decisions that got us into a bad situation, and now they're threatening to tear us apart. Only through understanding and patience and a desire to make things work no matter what (which is where my wife's having trouble right now) will get us through this, and I know it.

But don't add us to list of "couples that didn't make it" just yet. There's still hope for us. And lots of it.

Anonymous

07-04-2002, 05:43 PM

Only through understanding and patience and a desire to make things work no matter what (which is where my wife's having trouble right now) will get us through this

If you insist the other person agreeing to "make things work, no matter what" you are trapping that person.

wumpus

07-04-2002, 06:43 PM

I wonder where SiNNER is.
I think it's seriously unlikely you will ever see Sinner on a messageboard that Chet has full control over. Remember the blood feud?

Murph

07-04-2002, 08:00 PM

If you insist the other person agreeing to "make things work, no matter what" you are trapping that person.

I agree. I would never force my wife into that. But I think she's going to have to reach that point on her own, and find a desire to do whatever it takes to make things work, in order for us to get through what we're going through. That's all I meant.

chet

07-04-2002, 08:43 PM

Wumpus I do not have full control over these boards. I am a user just like you. We host over 75 web sites, I don't play or check with any of their data. The only thing I have done here is setup the message board and a week ago check some code changes they did as I was going to suggest a change to all our customers who use phpbb2 (their code is sloppy and wastes bandwidth like crazy, I have a simple fix for it). I just wanted to check the code changes Mark did to make sure the fix would work for him as well.

And what difference would it make? Do you mean the difference of all the one shot cheap shots against me have stopped?!!? That is terrible.

Though I would love to ask sinner, since I now host QT3 on my servers, which is more than I did for FCIPHS, does this make QT3 even more under my influence than FCIPHS where all I did was link to the site? Can I take credit for all of Tom and Mark's writing?

Chet

Tyjenks

07-04-2002, 08:45 PM

I have been married 6 years, have a 15 mo. old girl, and we are doing pretty well. I think marriage is hard work. There definitely has to be give and take and loads of communication.

I believe today people do get selfish as has been stated above. Divorce is a much more accepted solution and seems like an easy and quick fix for a couple that just cannot seem to keep it together. Speaking as a child (or victim) of divorce when I was five, I must say that it was neither easy nor quick. It was not necessarily the only solution for my parents, but it was the best.

I also believe many people who get married in today's world do not take it as seriously either. A couple thinks, "What the Hell, let's give it a go. We can always call it quits if we get sick of each other." You have to go into it with the commitment that you are going to make it last forever. I think some say the words in their vows as if they are only that: words. They are much more than that and they simply do not compute for some.

algahar

07-04-2002, 09:50 PM

it seems that our generation (i think i fall into the x category) is mostly against having children. i think the major reason is that kids would bring too much responsibilities and too many constraints. i am terrified by the idea that my kid, if i ever had 1, would hate me cause im not a good dad, which cant be defined, still. often than not, having kids is definitely not rewarding either. just look at how terrible our relationships are with our parents, thats a good enough reason never to have kids. (im only saying on behalf of people i know irl... :roll: )

marriage is still moderately acceptable but once the responsibilities and constraints thing get out of bound (i never THOUGHT this will be like that, its not SUPPOSED to be like this, or the selfish factor gets into the equation) then we give up. we dont have the patient/will power cause we understand theres always a lot of options out there. and having that patient/will power is too much effort.

"we are very much in love. we decide to get married"... well u know what, marriage is not a decision, is determination i think...

Supertanker

07-04-2002, 10:24 PM

Being married eight years and having three kids, I recommend against marriage and children to all of my friends. I recommend against marriage because I think 90% or more people are unsuited for it. I'm happily married, but most of my married friends are not. Of all the married people I know, I can only think of two, maybe three couples that I think will last past 10 years, and one of those is a second marriage.

I recommend against children because the sacrifices they require far, far outweigh any benefits. I think few, if any, people understand how much work is required, which leads to a lot of unhappy families.

I'm happy being Mr. Family Man, but I only know a couple of other guys that do or would feel the same way. Odds are a person will find marriage or family unpleasant or unfulfilling, possibly both. Better to skip them.

Tyjenks

07-04-2002, 10:29 PM

I recommend against children because the sacrifices they require far, far outweigh any benefits.

Hold on...are you saying the benefits you get from having your 3 children are not worth what you have had to give up?

Just so I am clear.

Anonymous

07-04-2002, 10:31 PM

I'm just going to interject; I haven't read any of the prior posts.... but I just wanted to say that reading this topic's headline, I'm always hearing the old priest in "The Princess Bride" in my head.

"Maaaaaaaaariage."

That is all.

Bub, Andrew

07-04-2002, 10:38 PM

No offense Supertanker but what kind of people do you associate with? Is this some LA thing? Most of the people I know who are married are on their first marriage *and* they're happily married. *Especially* the one's with kids. It's the single folks I know who are the unhappy sods. Especially the older guys.

You've been hanging out with Bill Maher, haven't you?

Tyjenks

07-04-2002, 10:45 PM

Most of the people I know who are married are on their first marriage *and* they're happily married. *Especially* the one's with kids. It's the single folks I know who are the unhappy sods. Especially the older guys.

Agreed. Everytime I get a little restless with the wife and kid I think back to the days of driving home alone smashed from some sleazy club at 2:30am, getting beers once I get home, and taking a couple of laps on foot around the apartment complex in the rain. That was when I was 25 or so. I can just imagine how miserable I would be today if I went back to the hallowed "single life".

Ahhhh, but to each his own, I suppose.

Supertanker

07-05-2002, 02:03 AM

Brad Grenz

07-05-2002, 02:09 AM

Well, I hope they don't read this thread.

Supertanker

07-05-2002, 02:24 AM

No offense Supertanker but what kind of people do you associate with? Is this some LA thing?

It could be an LA thing, though up here where I live, it is conservative, church-going "God's Country." The Reagan Library is only one valley over from us. Supposedly everything around here is fine.

However, I've always found there is a David Lynch-like patina of happiness on most places, but with all kinds of scum underneath. The worst bunch of unhappy sods I ever knew was the population of the small Arizona town I lived in (6,000 residents). Sure, everyone looked peaceful and happy on the surface, but in the years after I left there my favorite teacher left his wife and four kids to run off with a girl from my class; the preacher from our little Methodist church came out of the closet and left his family; his wife did time for white collar crime (she was an accountant); three different affairs among the church members came into view (including the choir director banging one of the choir members) ending three marriages in ugly divorces; there were two drunk-driving deaths; and the owner of the local hangout was convicted of arson for burning the place down. Now that the town has grown considerably (over 100,000 residents), it is known as a center of white supremacist groups. If you just drive down Main Street, though, the place looks neat and happy.

Supertanker

07-05-2002, 02:32 AM

Agreed. Everytime I get a little restless with the wife and kid I think back to the days of driving home alone smashed from some sleazy club at 2:30am, getting beers once I get home, and taking a couple of laps on foot around the apartment complex in the rain. That was when I was 25 or so. I can just imagine how miserable I would be today if I went back to the hallowed "single life".

Why does the single life have to be drinking and hanging out in clubs? My uncle has never married, and he travels a lot, spends a lot of time in NYC attending shows and art events, etc.. He just does what he wants to do, and isn't miserable at all.

Supertanker

07-05-2002, 03:24 AM

Well, I hope they don't read this thread.

I just don't want them to see it for ten or fifteen years. I didn't say we don't love them dearly, and we make sure they know we do. However, it is currently beyond their comprehension that we might have had a happy life without them. When they are older, I want them to understand and appreciate what we gave up for them.

Haven't you ever wondered what your parents would have been like if they had not had kids? My Dad probably would have been a better organist - a beloved hobby he had to drop when my brother and I came along. My Mom probably would still work for Chevron, have amassed a nice art collection as well as improving her painting and tennis skills - more things ground under the time demands from us kids. They both would be heavily involved in opera, but with kids they lacked time to work their way up the volunteer ranks as they wanted.

I also want my kids to know that I'm posting this at 3:30am not because I just got home from a club, but because one of them kicked her pillow out of her bed. Rather than just pick it up and go back to sleep, she threw a screaming fit until I came in and gave her the pillow back. :roll:

Aszurom

07-05-2002, 04:16 AM

Ya know, the secret to population control is for the government to subsidize sterilization. Instead of paying out for the kids people have and then can't effectively support, they should instead offer a no-charge quick-snip at the clinic and end the problem.

You would think that at a time when STDs can kill you and there are a great number of groups pushing for "safe sex" and birth control, that highschools wouldn't need daycare centers. However, I'm just as convinced as ever that the general population is rock fucking stupid.

Thus, the educated among us look at the prospect of children and think "Well, I'll plan for them and only have 1 or 2." However, the ignorant who can do nothing but eat and screw like rabbits, are dropping a kid a year. Is it still the status symbol in some parts of town to be able to claim more illegitimate children in a 5 mile radius than your buddy has?

Thus, stupid people (regardless of race or anything other than common sense) are outbreeding intelligent people by like 10 to 1. This is, apparently, inverse Darwinism. Is that the signal the we've evolved to the point where we begin to devolve? I don't know, but DEVO was from Akron and so am I - and I like their music and thus I'm right.

Personally, I think offering a cash reward for getting sterilized would entice the element of society that most needs it to do so.

We live in a time where the long-promised technology to implement a planned reproduction program of sorts exists. We could very easily start weeding genetic defects out of the species through medical screening and family planning. Do we do this? NO. Why? Because it's the god-given right of anyone - smart or stupid - to breed. Also, a large part of the problem is social rather than genetic. It's the culture these children are raised in that determines their use of whatever intellectual capacity they've been given. Hell, I'm guilty in my own life of not using my mind to full capacity - however, I can read and write and apply common-sense reasoning to just about any situation... and that seems an ability lacking in a large percentage of the population.

Maybe it's just that the majority of people having kids are in the 16-25 age bracket. I look back and see how ignorant I was back then in comparison to how my values and decision making has changed over time. I mean, when you're 21 one of the key things on your mind is getting your libido taken care of. Also a lot of marriages (first marriages, hehe) spring up in those years. How can you decide that you're going to spend the rest of your life with someone, and yet neither of you knows who you are yet, let alone has learned to communicate with another person who is also going through a self-redefinement process on a constant basis?

I think some young people realize this - and decide to "wait until they're older" to have kids. By the time that comes around, they're wise enough to say that kids aren't such a good idea for them. Oh... and +10 idiot points for anybody who ever suggests that "having kids will fix a failing relationship." Hahaha... NO.

Tyjenks

07-05-2002, 04:56 AM

Why does the single life have to be drinking and hanging out in clubs? My uncle has never married, and he travels a lot, spends a lot of time in NYC attending shows and art events, etc.. He just does what he wants to do, and isn't miserable at all.

It does not have to be that. I was really just saying I would have probably gone back to that because I would still be looking for someone. There are other things I enjoy and could stay involved in, but, for myself, coming home to an empty house is not something I would like.

I understand that you can easily stay unmarried and not be alone, but I would not have been happy with that. I also see that the bar scene is not the only place to find someone, but it is a lot easier and quicker to find companionship there when you are feeling alone than anywhere else I have found.

I actually met my wife in a bar at 1:30am. We have been happily married for 6 years and have one kid.

Everyone's situation is different. These are just my thoughts.

JeffL

07-05-2002, 06:43 AM

Wow. What a depressing thread.

Yeah, kids require a lot of sacrifice, a lot of effort, bring a lot of worries and heartburn. But I look at our life with them, and I look at my married friends who've chosen a bigger house and a cottage up north and a better car over kids, and I wouldn't trade places with them for anything in the world. Our family of five is the center of my life, and while it IS hard work, I just can't imagine any "things" that could replace it.

Living in the same house with the same person for your entire life is absolutely a challenge - hell, how many best friends have a hard time living with each other in a dorm for a few semesters? But the rewards of a family that is the center of your life are so great. Sorry to sound so old fashioned, and I hope it doesn't sound smug - I know that I'm really lucky/blessed to have a wife and kids and a home that is filled with the love ours has, even through the tough times and the angry times. I suppose I didn't realize how lucky until reading this thread. It certainly isn't due to any characteristics of mine!- Hmmm - note, send roses to wife today....

Brian Rucker

07-05-2002, 06:55 AM

I think that about sums it up. Everyone's situation is different. However, we can also look at statistics and want to put a story to them so as to explain trends. I look around and even during the course of my life I've seen the world appear to get more and more driven by money - rightsizing, privatization, and corporate subsidies for public institutions (even as they weasle out of paying taxes). Things that belonged to the community before and even the ability to take some time to be with friends and family seem to have been ceeded to economic incentives. This has to have some social consequences.

But ultimately, it's personal. In my case I take marraige so seriously that I've never been married. When I start thinking about the rest of my life, and look across the table at the other person, any reaction other than 'oh no' has been rather shortlived. I think I could get married but I haven't met the right person yet and, at this rate, it's entirely unlikely I will. My last few close encounters with the feminine nesting instinct were a bit too harrowing for this old batchelor. If one day I meet a kindred spirit, well, then - that'll be another story. As it is, I have to admit, the single life has been verra verra good to me.

Mark Asher

07-05-2002, 07:30 AM

"When I start thinking about the rest of my life, and look across the table at the other person, any reaction other than 'oh no' has been rather shortlived. I think I could get married but I haven't met the right person yet and, at this rate, it's entirely unlikely I will. My last few close encounters with the feminine nesting instinct were a bit too harrowing for this old batchelor."

You know too much. You understand what an upheaval a permanent relationship would bring. That's probably why you'll never get married.

It's better to get married when you're young because you're more flexible and young people are stupid and don't know what they're getting into. :wink:

I've often thought that if you take children out of the equation, the ideal male-female relationship would be co-habiting on the weekends but spending the weekdays apart. You'd have a companion when you'd have time to enjoy her companionship, yet you'd also have a lot of the freedom that being single allows. You want to go out clubbing after work? Fine. Want to work out? Sure. Want to veg and play computer games all evening. Great. There would be no conflict, no putting aside of you want to do to please someone else.

You see a lot of elderly couples like this. For a lot of reasons they don't want a legal relationship and they don't want to co-habit all the time, but they often do form permanent relationships with an unattached member of the opposite sex. The woman enjoys being squired to events and the man enjoys having a permanent date.

TimElhajj

07-05-2002, 09:58 AM

LOL, damn Supertanker!

Maybe you ought to put the kids up for adoption and get out while the getting is good. :) I image that even in ten or fifteen years the kids are not going to give one whit what you gave up. Why should they? They had no say in the decision.

LOL, this is depressing! I think I am going to go to work this morning and just ignore this board.

Jason McCullough

07-05-2002, 01:25 PM

Jason McCullough

07-05-2002, 01:26 PM

Personally, I think offering a cash reward for getting sterilized would entice the element of society that most needs it to do so.

L. Ron Hubbard? Is that you?

Dave Long

07-05-2002, 02:36 PM

I'm firmly in Lackey's camp here. My wife and I, until recently, had very few married friends just because everyone our age wasn't getting hitched. I never once wanted to be like them. The time we spend with our three boys isn't always perfect (like today when the middle one was lying in the middle of a trail screaming because he didn't want to walk anymore) but for every instance like that, there's an equally rewarding one like them just saying "I love you, Dad!" right out of the blue.

Marriage and children aren't for everyone, but the pursuit of material goods won't lead to anything other than a lot of stuff you've got no place for in your abode. You don't get any emotional satisfaction, just more stuff.

--Dave

Mark Asher

07-05-2002, 03:05 PM

"Marriage and children aren't for everyone, but the pursuit of material goods won't lead to anything other than a lot of stuff you've got no place for in your abode. You don't get any emotional satisfaction, just more stuff."

Surely there's a wide gulf of possibilities between materialism and having a family? It's not an either/or proposition.

I understand that having a family is rewarding, because I have one. There's no reason why not having a family can't be rewarding too, however. To me it's just swapping one set of possibilities for another.

JeffL

07-05-2002, 03:06 PM

Hey, everyone should go after whatever it is that makes their quality of life the best they can make it. For me, I'd rather be broke and have a smaller car and house and get goodnight hugs from my kids and go to sleep every night spooning with my wife. There's nothing that is more important to me than sitting with my 14 year old daughter who came home in tears because kids made fun of her braces, spending time with her, and having her smile and hug me when we're done. Or a walk in the park with my 10 year old daughter, seeing the world through her eyes. Or fly fishing on the Au Sable river with my 16 year old son, in his "mumble" years, chatting about life as we watch the sun go down on the river. Christmas mornings with the whole family around the tree. All that corny stuff. But I realize that other folks may get the same level of happiness from other sources - more power to everyone. Our time here on earth is about as permanent as a page on the calendar, everyone should find what makes them the happiest and go for it. But I don't think money, based on watching the world locally and globally, is going to provide sustainable happiness.

OTOH: as someone wiser than I said: Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy your favorite form of misery. :lol:

wumpus

07-05-2002, 03:10 PM

the Hell, let's give it a go. We can always call it quits if we get sick of each other.
That reminds me of a conversation my wife and I had last night.

Me: I like you. I think we should be together forever-- or until I get tired of you. Whichever comes first. Then you should leave.
Betsy: I don't know about that. How will I know you're tired of me?
Me: I'll e-mail you. I'll set the priority to 'high'.

I don't know how anyone can be married without a great sense of humor about, well.. everything.

Bernie_Dy

07-05-2002, 03:51 PM

OTOH: as someone wiser than I said: Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy your favorite form of misery. :lol:

Heh, that's a good one. I've heard a similar one that says, "You can't buy happiness, but you can rent it."

wumpus

07-05-2002, 03:56 PM

Wumpus I do not have full control over these boards. I am a user just like you. We host over 75 web sites, I don't play or check with any of their data. The only thing I have done here is setup the message board and a week ago check some code changes they did as I was going to suggest a change to all our customers who use phpbb2 (their code is sloppy and wastes bandwidth like crazy, I have a simple fix for it). I just wanted to check the code changes Mark did to make sure the fix would work for him as well.
This long diatribe further convinces me that when push comes to shove, you have full access to this server. But whatever. There's no need to get all defensive, Chet. Believe me, you are my new personal hero for getting us off that indescribably hideous Discus messageboard. And for hosting the site.

I just thought it would be fairly obvious why Sinner wouldn't come around here. But who knows. Maybe he's already posting under some other alias.

Sparky

07-05-2002, 08:46 PM

You don't get any emotional satisfaction, just more stuff.

Okay, we do have a LOT of stuff. It isn't necessarily valuable stuff, it's just stuff...like mouse skulls, bowling balls, metric wrenches, dusty radio tubes and old hair dryers. I don't have kids, because the kids would just crawl around on the floor and inevitably choke on all the stuff, and then we'd be back to square one, alone, with just our stuff.

wumpus

07-05-2002, 09:12 PM

.. and maybe a few more skulls.

wumpus

07-05-2002, 09:18 PM

Money can't buy you happiness
Isn't money about freedom, ultimately? Happiness is a red herring. Poor people don't get much choice in life.

Also, the only advice my Dad gave me about marriage: avoid money problems. I don't have any statistics to back this up, but I believe it was based on personal experience from the divorce.

Kind of an interesting article I found on the topic:

http://money.msn.com/articles/family/basics/9618.asp

Met_K

07-05-2002, 09:24 PM

Money can't buy you happiness
Isn't money about freedom, ultimately? Happiness is a red herring. Poor people don't get much choice in life.

If poor people weren't happy, humanity would've died off back in BC. And if not then, maybe around 1000ad.

Jason Cross

07-05-2002, 09:35 PM

I was just thinking about all this when I was out downtown the other day.

More marriages are ending in divorce, true. And people are having kids at an older age, true.

But let's not take those facts to mean that marriage is going out of style, or that some segements of the populace are having fewer kids.

It's totally anecdotal evidence, I know, but in the last two years or so I've seen a *LOT* more people getting married. I see "Bachelorette night outs" happening every single weekend now when I go out. I'm virtually beseiged by fucking strollers and crying kids (my favorite things, lemme tell ya) at every possible turn.

If anything, it seems like both the marriage rate and the birth rate have gone WAY up in the past two or three years. Now, maybe those are slightly older people having kids and maybe those marriages will end in divorce. I couldn't say. And I don't even want to guess about what socialogical criteria are bending the numbers this way.

But jesus fucking christ, Joe Public: how about dating for a couple years and then being engaged for awhile before getting married? And stop breeding so damn much just because "it's what I want." Fuck what you want, Joe Public. You'll be the first one to bitch in 20 years when the world's population is over 10 billion and there's not enough ANYTHING to go around, especially for the 55 year olds.

wumpus

07-05-2002, 10:51 PM

If poor people weren't happy, humanity would've died off back in BC. And if not then, maybe around 1000ad.
I didn't say they weren't happy. They just don't have as much freedom or choice in their lives. I believe increased freedom is the motivation for obtaining money, not some perceived happiness that it could possibly provide. But who knows? Maybe some people actually enjoy using public transportation instead of owning a car.

Regardless, thank you for giving me another chance to work with the mentally retarded.

wumpus

07-05-2002, 10:52 PM

You'll be the first one to bitch in 20 years when the world's population is over 10 billion and there's not enough ANYTHING to go around, especially for the 55 year olds.
If this means I won't be able to get a decent tee time, then consider me pissed off.

Anonymous

07-05-2002, 11:51 PM

>You'll be the first one to bitch in 20 years when the world's population is over 10 billion and there's not
enough ANYTHING to go around, especially for the 55 >year olds.

I've a feeling that there'll be plenty of Soylent Green to go around-bring on the future,baby!

Sean Tudor

07-07-2002, 03:17 PM

I have to say to anyone that complains about having children and a lack of freedom - why have them in the first place ?

Hasn't anyone heard of the pill or condoms for f... sake ?!

Anonymous

07-07-2002, 03:57 PM

DennyA

07-07-2002, 05:06 PM

Is marriage dying? Nah. People just now have the sense not to "stay married for the kids" or to stay married to someone who drives them nuts because the local priest takes a break between examining alterboys to threaten to toss the couple out of the church if they commit divorce.

People get married too young, and for the wrong reasons. Or they think they're seeking one thing in a person and once they marry that kind of person they realize their priorities were screwed. Or they marry the first attractive person that gets their hormones going and that they have fun with without really waiting for the person who truly "clicks."

I'm sure that some will disagree with me, but my own opinion is that, if you feel you have to "work" at a relationship, you're with the wrong person. Yes, you have to put effort into a relationship, and you even have to do things you find totally dull or annoying at times to make your spouse happy -- and your spouse does too. But if the relationship's working, you take enough enjoyment from doing something that makes your spouse happy that the dull/annoying stuff isn't really dull/annoying to you.

If your spouse spends time trying to change your habits or interests, you probably married the wrong person. If yelling is part of communication... If you resent your married responsibilities or your kids... If you dread going home... These are all problem relationships. Yet it kills me how many people seem to think this is normal.

My first marriage was when I was 23. Ooops. We fought often, she was irresponsible, we stopped having fun. We ended it. Best thing for both of us. I can't imagine what my life would be like had I stayed married to her. She's not a bad person, but we were NOT a good match. But did I realize that at first? Heck no.

After the divorce and a helluva lot of introspection, I realized that there were different things I wanted out of life. Years later I met a person who was a perfect match for me. We have very different interests, but we're happy with who we each are. We don't have to fight to bring up things that are bugging us. We communicate. We have fun. We enjoy doing things together--and we each introduce each other to interests we wouldn't have alone--but we also give each other space alone as well. It's great. We've been together for eight years, with the first kid on the way in September.

Divorce is a good thing sometimes. Our previous bad relationships (she wasn't married before, but had a long term relationship) helped us figure out what we really wanted. Who knows, if we'd met in our early 20s, if we'd have been interested in each other? You learn from mistakes.

Jason, you can't even reduce the bad relationships by saying "date a couple of years." Hell, I lived with my ex for over a year before marrying her. Divorced in a year. I was engaged to Dawn for two months and married her after knowing her for nine months -- and that was in 1994. Still going.

The key isn't waiting after you meet a person. It's waiting for the right person. And as dorky as it sounds, you'll KNOW. After a month or so dating Dawn, I knew there was something there I'd never had with any of my college girlfriends, my oops-marriage, or any other relationship.

Personally I'm annoyed by the people who breed like bunnies too, Jason, but if you look, the birth rate in first-world countries is actually decreasing. The growth is coming almost exclusively from the third-world. For every 10-kid Mormon or Catholic family nowadays there are a dozen childless couples driving BMWs, it seems. We're deciding between 1 and 2 kids, ourselves. (I'm leaning heavily towards 1.)

Jason McCullough

07-07-2002, 05:20 PM

What he said.

Supertanker

07-07-2002, 06:21 PM

I have to say to anyone that complains about having children and a lack of freedom - why have them in the first place?

Because they didn't know what they were getting into. When the subject of children comes up, hardly anybody talks about the drawbacks. Everyone paints it like it is purely some Hallmark card experience. It is a social faux pas to say anything negative about your children, especially to other prospective parents. When Aunt Mable suggests you have kids, she never says, "Sweetie, you have too much money and get too much sleep. You should have a baby!"

I say fuck that (and Star Wars). Part of why my wife and I vehemently warn people off from children is to work against the "great pro-child conspiracy." I'm sort of like Marley's ghost, but with strings of old diapers from a Diaper Genie instead of chains. Wrap that rascal, Scrooge, or you will end up like me!

Supertanker

07-07-2002, 06:34 PM

Dude, your uncle is GAY. Geeze. What happened to the world's Gaydar?

There is a minor debate in the family about that (I've listened to him hitting on a 25-year-old woman, so I vote not), but regardless of sexual orientation, he chooses not to be in a committed relationship. That's the point.

Bub, Andrew

07-07-2002, 06:36 PM

wumpus

07-07-2002, 09:00 PM

The key isn't waiting after you meet a person. It's waiting for the right person. And as dorky as it sounds, you'll KNOW. After a month or so dating Dawn, I knew there was something there I'd never had with any of my college girlfriends, my oops-marriage, or any other relationship.
A lot of it really is luck, eg, meeting the right person. Which is why it's important to put yourself in plenty of social situations. That way, you have the opportunity to be selective about your relationships, rather than trying to romantically force-fit the next person who happens to come along.

Supertanker

07-07-2002, 09:07 PM

Good god Supertanker, why did you have three then?
Having a child is very hard work (as Denny is about to find out - it really does test your marriage Denny), I'm not arguing that, but I not only want the one I have... I want another one. I'd say it's all it's cracked up to be and a bag of chips.

Like I said before, I think that I am suited to it, but I don't think most other people are.

Once you've broken through the usual defenses with the first kid (where will we live, will we be good parents, etc.) having more is a much easier decision. Wait until you have more than one - there is some sort of logarithmic scale of difficulty when they stack. Two is more like 3 individual kids, and three is like 7. The move from man-to-man to zone defense is an interesting one, too.

The great unknown is also what your kids are like as individuals. Two of my kids have some emotional or health issues that make raising them more difficult than most. More difficult to the point that other parents often look at us in shock after being around the kids for a while and inevitably ask, "How do you do it?" The other one is a fabulous kid - if there were some guarantee they all would be like her, we would have six.

wumpus

07-07-2002, 09:07 PM

I'm not arguing that, but I not only want the one I have... I want another one. I'd say it's all it's cracked up to be and a bag of chips.
Heck, why not have a whole friggin' litter then? I'm not knocking the wonder of child-rearing, but hearing about the sweet, treacly magic of it all over and over again is almost as tedious as people who insist how great it is not to own a television*.

Here's a simple rule of thumb for everyone. YOUR kids are great. Because they're yours. Other people's kids, however, are fucking annoying.

* notice I didn't say "TV," because TV is a nickname, and nicknames are for friends, and television is NO FRIEND OF MINE!

wumpus

07-07-2002, 09:13 PM

The great unknown is also what your kids are like as individuals. Two of my kids have some emotional or health issues that make raising them more difficult than most. More difficult to the point that other parents often look at us in shock after being around the kids for a while and inevitably ask, "How do you do it?" The other one is a fabulous kid - if there were some guarantee they all would be like her, we would have six.
Personally, I think it's great that you are being honest about your ambivalence. It certainly rings a lot truer to me than what everyone else tends to do -- simply trotting out the tired old cliches about how great kids are, how perfect life is with them, and spontaneously breaking into song with Whitney Houston's "Greatest Love of All".

chet

07-07-2002, 09:31 PM

Not to go entirely off subject but since there are some parents here.

QUIT TAKING KIDS YOU CANNOT CONTROL TO A RESTAURANT THAT DOES NOT SERVE HAPPY MEALS.

The crying or yelling of your kids is not cute.

The place we were going to eat at today changed their hours so we ended up going for a late lunch at the only thing nearby Max and Ermas. Yes, I had low expecatations to begin with, but kids took it so much lower.

At places like this we normally eat in the bar or the smoking section even though we don't smoke. God forbid a family not be able to bring their 3 year old in the bar section because its busy. Hell no, here kiddie he is a shot to wash down whatever pain you are screaming about. There really needs to be a no kids section in public places.

The kids screamed at a high pitch whine for the entire meal. The manager just shrugged it off (when did it become acceptable for kids to go into bars?) the parents ignored the smokers lurking nearby which were probably causing some of the discomfort to the kid.

I was not expecting a great meal or expierence, but I was expecting to not listen to a high pitch whine my entire meal and walk out with a headache. I just wanted to sit with my girlie, eat food that wouldn't make us sick, and talk about the upcoming week.

The parents did nothing, when one of the other diners asked them to control their kid, they shrugged it off. Yes, it was that bad, everyone in the area was having a hard time with it.

I know the parents excuse without asking - but we need to get out too...

For every complaint I hear about how can they show this on TV, say that on Radio, make this or that - what about my kids?!?!?! F' your kids. What about a place in this world for adults to be able to be adults?

Chet

Bub, Andrew

07-07-2002, 10:10 PM

Like I said before, I think that I am suited to it, but I don't think most other people are.

Fair enough. I must have missed that.

Once you've broken through the usual defenses with the first kid ... The move from man-to-man to zone defense is an interesting one, too.

Heh, vividly put. Yes, we're limiting ourselves to two for just that very reason. I wrangle one while she wrangles the other... that's the theory at least. We're mature enough to know that all bets are off. My daughter will be just about three when number two comes along. That'll be February by the way (Cigars all around).

The great unknown is also what your kids are like as individuals. Two of my kids have some emotional or health issues that make raising them more difficult than most.

I'm very sorry to hear that and give you all the credit you deserve for that. My daughter is willful, but that's about it. We're very lucky and hope we remain that way. Several members of our family are in social work, teaching, nursing, so we are aware how difficult it can get.

Here's a simple rule of thumb for everyone. YOUR kids are great. Because they're yours. Other people's kids, however, are fucking annoying.

Duh. Figure that out by yourself? I don't really like little kids myself, so this treacly stuff may sound like bullshit to you but it came as a bonafide surprise to me. I'm a convert. Praise and hallelujah. I feel really bad for parents who *don't* talk like this when their own kids come along Wumpus. Worse, I feel bad for their kids. Kinda like how I feel bad for your wife when I read your thoughts on marriage.

Chet is absolutely right by the way, about restaurants. I'd like to include movie theaters in that grouping. Movie theaters are not day care for your infant or toddler. 20' screen and Dolby Surround is a nightmare for a baby or toddler even if it's fucking Bambi up there. It's even worse for (single people, the childless) and the harried parents trying to get away from kids.

wumpus

07-07-2002, 10:15 PM

Kinda like how I feel bad for your wife when I read your thoughts on marriage.
Which is kinda the way I feel bad for people who have no sense of humor. Way to miss the point there, Bub.

I like kids. I like my kids. Most of all, I'd like my kids to kick Jeff Lackey's kids' asses.

Jason McCullough

07-07-2002, 10:18 PM

The move from man-to-man to zone defense is an interesting one, too.

This is probably the best quote about having kids I've ever heard.

Tom Chick

07-07-2002, 10:20 PM

Here's a simple rule of thumb for everyone. YOUR kids are great. Because they're yours. Other people's kids, however, are fucking annoying.

Not true. I've met Supertanker's kids. They're pretty cool.

-Tom

TimElhajj

07-07-2002, 10:54 PM

Sometimes you just can't find a family friendly place to eat. I've been traveling and had that experiance and just had to tough it out. You have to eat. If they don't eat, it just gets worse. It sucks, but there you have it. Same thing with flying. What am I going to do if my kids start to wail at 10k?

Now the movies are another thing entirely. I hate getting trapped in the theater with a screaming child. It's particularly bad becasue I never see children's movies. What are these parents thinking?

TimElhajj

07-07-2002, 11:03 PM

"The great unknown is also what your kids are like as individuals. Two of my kids have some emotional or health issues that make raising them more difficult than most."

Wow, that's tough. I had no idea, Supertanker. I suppose in that case you really do want your kids to know "what you gave up" to raise them. Good luck.

Mark Asher

07-07-2002, 11:11 PM

"Sometimes you just can't find a family friendly place to eat. I've been traveling and had that experiance and just had to tough it out. You have to eat. If they don't eat, it just gets worse. It sucks, but there you have it. Same thing with flying. What am I going to do if my kids start to wail at 10k?"

In a restaurant, you need to take an unruly child into the bathroom and try to quiet him. If that doesn't work, one parent needs to take the child to the car. My wife and I have done that before and had a meal boxed up to finish later. It's not fair to the other diners to subject them to a crying child.

Taking a kid on a plane is something we would only have done if it was absolutely necessary. We never went on a vacation that was more than a few hours of driving until they were all at least 8 years old. We were fortunate in that all our close relatives live in town.

DavidCPA

07-07-2002, 11:54 PM

Traveling with a child: My experience traveling with my daughter (she'll be 5 in August) has been very good. She rides in the car very well and we took her to Vegas last December by plane with no problems. I guess if you have more than one kid the chances of having a bad experience go up :)

Marriage: If you are lucky, you will find someone who can stand you for the rest of your life. If you aren't lucky, you will come home from work one day and all your furniture will be missing and a summons to divorce court with an court order instructing you to pay interim child support will be posted to the door.

Kids: I honestly can't think of what I have given up by having a child. I can only think of things I have gained. I would feel incomplete without her. My advice - if you want to have kids, go for it, and if you don't want to have kids, well..don't.

Most people I know are still in their first marriage. My grandparents were married for nearly 70 years when my grandpa died. My parents have been married almost 50 years. Among my siblings (1 bro, 2 sis) there is only one divorce and nine kids. My wife's family has plenty of divorces and other complicated family issues so I guess they cancel out the stability of my immediate family. Though in my small workgroup (1 supervisor and 4 professionals including me), everyone is still on their first marriage and everybody has at least one child.

I hope all of you find a way to be happy (married, single, kids, no kids, whatever).

-DavidCPA

DennyA

07-08-2002, 04:30 AM

Interesting how this has shifted from marriage to kids after my message. I must have hit the marriage nail on the head and ended the need for discussion. :-)

It KILLS me to see how some parents treat their kids, and how inconsiderate they are of people around them. And while I'm a first-time dad, I have nephews and nieces, so going out in public with a two-year-old or three kids between 6 and 8 isn't going to be a new experience to me. And you guys are absolutely right about the theater thing -- I will never carry our baby into a movie theater. That's just totally inconsiderate. If you can't afford a babysitter, wait for Blockbuster. On the restaurant thing, Mark's got that one right. Take the kid out and calm him/her. Just because you've learned to tune out your kid's shrieks doesn't mean you should just ignore it and force other people to listen to the amazingly ear-piercing noises they can generate.

As for the "sacrifices" of kids, the main thing I can see that I'm giving up is a hoped-for early retirement, since I'm going to be a semi-geriatric 37 before Carter is born. But on the bright side, by waiting into my 30's, I got to do a LOT of fun and irresponsible stuff in my 20s and take lots of trips to Europe, etc. in my early 30s that my friends with kids couldn't do because of money, responsibilities, etc. So I got it out of my system, finished my comic book collection, and bought all the important gadgetry pre-kid. Now it's time to add a child to the family so I can add those cool new Legos and radio-controlled toys to the mix without getting funny looks. :lol:

I'm really thinking just one kid, though, MAYBE two. In my experience (and I know families differ, so I'm not making accusations here), there's a closer parent/child dynamic with one or two kids. I was an only child on my mom's side and one of four on my dad's side, and it seems to me that when you have one or two kids that children get closer to the parents, while when you have more the bond is more between the siblings. Not that there's anything wrong with this. My wife is one of six and really values the bond with her siblings. But as the parent myself, I'm being greedy here. With one or two kids I can be more involved with them individually -- going to individual kids' events, bringing them along on trips, etc. -- than I could with a bigger brood.

Tyjenks

07-08-2002, 07:21 AM

I asked our pediatrician about flying with a 14 month old and was there anything she needed for possible nausea or ear pain. He said to give her a little benadryl about 30 mins. before take-off.

We did as per doctor's orders and she made it from Birmingham, AL to Seattle, WA with one plane change. We had a couple of little whiny fits, but everyone around us told us what a little angel she was. There was certainly less whining from the baby than from my wife.

BTW, we also bought her a 1/2 price ticket and a light weight car seat which we brought on the plane and strapped her in right next to us. She was better than I could have hoped for, but she is generally a pretty happy little tyke and does not fuss much as it is. If we would have had to take turns with her in our lap, I think one of us would have not made it home.

Going back to the marriage deal. I have found 4 very important keys:

1. Humor
2. Communication
3. Communication
4. Communication

TimElhajj

07-08-2002, 08:45 AM

I'm not saying it's okay to ruin another person's dinner--if I were in my home city I just would not attempt to eat out when the kids are in a grumpy mood. My wife and I have also aborted with a box to the car when we miscalcuated their mood or they just go off.

However, my experiance with unruly children in public places comes from traveling from Washington state to Pennsylvania. It's not practical to drive. Sometimes my kids are going to wail, I'm not going to be able to comfort them, and there isn't going to be any where to retreat. I don't like it but no amount of glaring is going to help the matter either.

When the kids were 18 months, we were flying out of PA and they put us on a little 18 seat commuter plane. The kids hated it. I felt bad for the others during take off because they both shrieked for 15 minutes until they finally just passed out.

TimElhajj

07-08-2002, 08:57 AM

My parents used to pull that "what we gave up to have you kids" thing, but I never bought it. There were seven of us and no doubt it was financially and emotionally draining. But even as a kid it seemed to me irresponsible to blame your children for a situation they did not create.

Bernie_Dy

07-08-2002, 09:28 AM

What a thread :)

Bub, congratulations on your pending baby. Are we on the same schedule or what? My second is on the way too.

It's true that marriage and children both take a lot of effort, at least if you want them to work. As far as finding the right spouse, I have to agree with Denny that it's about finding the right person, and also with the other guy that said "There's a lot of luck involved." While I think it's possible there are many people you can be compatible with, being able to recognize those with the special tolerance for your faults (and vice versa) takes some time and maturity.

The kids thing: look, we're all different. Some want kids, some don't. There's nothing right or wrong about that.

Matthew Gallant

07-08-2002, 10:39 AM

Going back to the marriage deal. I have found 4 very important keys:

1. Humor
2. Communication
3. Communication
4. Communication

Jerk, you've put that Ballmerfunk Dance song back into my head.

JeffL

07-08-2002, 02:36 PM

Wumpus - don't have kids. I think we'd all agree with that sentiment. For you.

WRT 1 versus 2 versus 3: we found that two was more than a doubling of the effort, but the third wasn't so tough. Perhaps because the first two were older and thus required less "watching" - they could actually help with the third.

You'll get out of your kids what you invest in them, and then some. My wife and I got out of grad school, moved to the Houston area for my first job, and just ran around for a couple of years. I think it was really important that we had a few years of marriage where it was just the two of us before we had kids. Then one day we just kinda looked at each other and said "It's time." We were both ready, and we were ready to shift the focus.

There are, despite the tone to the contrary, some wonderful aspects to having kids. My wife and I still go out of our way to have time to ourselves, and time that's just her and me - dates, trips that are just the two of us, etc. But our lives would be significantly less rich without the kids.