Empire Earth 2 demo, Starshatter, Kohan 2 and other thoughts

[Enidigm]

I was dissapointed in the recently released Empire Earth 2 demo, having such potential and good ideas, but so many flaws. I was worried when Maddoc was announced as the developer since i felt their expansion for the original Empire Earth felt cheaper, ill fitting and very B-sided. And this impression remains, as Empire Earth 2 seems more like an elaborate fan mod than an original game.

It eats through my computer like no other game on my HD, for graphics that look, frankly, worse than the original. Gameplay remains faithful to its roots, although elaborated upon greatly with territories restricting the number of settlements, roads, techs, ect. with influences from Rise of Nations clearly visible. Gameplay and combat just seems so tired to me, everything feels so dreadfully generic. Icons are used for everything, but they are so small, blurry, and non-descript i can't hardly make out what i'm supposed to be reading.

All of which is quite sad because they really have created some new interface techniques that should be a part of any future Age-style RTS. Mouse over the resources-total bar and the cursor changes into an idle-villager count, and you can assign these idle vills instantly to gather whatever resource you click on. The picture-in-picture function is really quite handy. There are other innovations. But there are so many "neat and cool" ideas that they seem to have forgotten about the actual, core gameplay upon which everything is built.

Empire Earth 2 is therefore, much like some episode of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer"; sure it may well be cleverly written, well acted and everything, but ultimately it's a silly teen-age spinoff about silly teen-age issues. EE2 may be the shiznit for innovation, but it still feels like any other Age-style game.

Starshatter, otoh, rocks. Its like a textbook for good game design. There are so many little details done right, but instead of heaping increasingly burdonsome and unneccesarily elaborations upon themselves, the gameplay in Starshatter is impressively thorough yet concise, well conceived, and immediately comprehensible and unobtrusive. Its so much fun, after being restricted mostly to Il2 for my simming, to fly in a campaign that is actually, really dynamic. Although i've only had it a couple days, i'm looking foward to the whole single player campaign - and the last single player game i finished honestly was Warcraft 3's expansion (i finished HL2 with god mode and weapon cheats, once i figured out it was nothing but elaborate Monster Closets, Dodge the Helicopter, and Jump! Gordon, Jump!)

Patched, Kohan 2 has finally, almost become the uber-rts it was promised to be. I wish the tech upgrade scheme was more original, that there were more diverse monsters, that there were more interesting components to build.. but its finally a decent game. Mostly it has to do with making Archers viable, which were about 50% of the non-standard strategies in the game, but there are plenty of subtleties to master. Its more fun than being out-clicked in War3; although its still impossible to find a game in the time i'm willing to spend looking for one.

Damn Scythe Chariots! I can't beat these damn things in my Rome TW campaign as the Selucids, after giving up as the Scipii. I slightly modded the game to make Hoplite Militia and Levy Pikemen untrained instead of highly_trained (which made no sense), but these make up 90% of my recruitable forces; and either way they're just food for the meat grinder. All my forces just crumple under heavy cavalry; seiging the Pontic capital i lost hundreds of men to a heavy cavalry charge just inside the gate; its like nothing i have works anymore. Fortunately some Thracians made up the second wave, and they broke through fairly easily.

[Peter Frazier]

The Empire Earth 2 demo left me severely underwhelmed. There should be a rule of thumb for game developers about construction time versus combat time. An army that took me 20 minutes to build should not be killed by 3 towers in 15 seconds. This includes siege cannons who are meant to kill the towers quickly.
At least people aren't harvesting pumpkin fields by hand into the 21st century, like the original. They're just picking off a cherry tree.

As for Starshatter- it's one of the gems that I haven't been able to move on to yet. I feel bad about it, as though I'm denying myself something good. I'm just still mustering up the effort to retry X- The Return and its arcane interface before I move onto another space-sim.
On the Starshatter front, is there much replay in it in terms of user-made mods?

[CustodianV131]

Hmmm must try that Earth 2 demo someday.. although you don't make me eager with your preview. Shame was looking forward to it. Maybe wiser to stick with Rise of Nation then for an epic "span the centuries" game.

Will check out Starshatter. Was ignoring it, but hearing to many good things about it :) Not now, though to busy.

Aye, Kohan 2 is ace! But I mostly play in skirmish mode, when I feel like a "kohan" type game. Played Kohan 1 a lot on the web, in a great clan, but sadly to busy for that now and there doesn't seem to be much online action anyway when I look. Can't understand why this formula isn't more successful, I love it!
"Click" based games seem more popular... can't figure out why really. Maybe because it requires less use of the gray matter and more of the trigger finger? :D

Ah Rome! It just reigns supreme at the moment... enough said.

[Peter Frazier]

Another double post, damn those unresponsive 'submit' buttons.

[Peter Frazier]

double post

[shang]

Aye, Kohan 2 is ace! But I mostly play in skirmish mode, when I feel like a "kohan" type game. Played Kohan 1 a lot on the web, in a great clan, but sadly to busy for that now and there doesn't seem to be much online action anyway when I look. Can't understand why this formula isn't more successful, I love it!
"Click" based games seem more popular... can't figure out why really. Maybe because it requires less use of the gray matter and more of the trigger finger? :D

My thoughts exactly. I wonder if there are enough Kohan 2 players left on QT3 to get a friendly 2v2 or something together one of these nights.

[Banzai]

Kohan 2 is the best RTS I've played, but typical online numbers are something like 3 people playing solo games and one 4v4 that has just started. Over the weekends, you can find up to three 4v4 wars going on at once, but even so, aren't there more than 20 people in the world who love this game?

I played almost every night during january and most of february, but I finally got tired of waiting for games.

[Troy S Goodfellow]

Starshatter is very good. It's probably the best space shooter on the market, but it's not like there are a lot of them. I found the controls a little confusing, but that's likely more a comment on me than the game.

Re the scythed chariots, disperse your heavy infantry before they hit. And hammer them with all the missiles you can muster. It took a while before I knew what to do with them, mostly because I keep getting bogged down in "history" which tells me that scythed chariots and elephants are supposed to suck. Remember, when gaming, education is not your friend.

Troy

[Sean Tudor]

Yah Starshatter is definitely a gem of a game. Milo has done a great job with the design.

Don't discount X2 : The Threat. It's a deep game that will keep you busy for literally years. There is also an expansion coming out this year.

[Brian Rucker]

Starshatter. Was looking forward to this before it came out and then...completely got sidetracked and never got around to actually buying it. Until today. Thanks for the reminder. :)

[scharmers]

One thing to keep in mind with Starshatter, though: it's closer to a flight-sim than a space-sim (even with the arcade controls enabled). Snubfighter combat is ferociously like a modern-era dogfight, with lots of contacts, missiles flying everywhere, and seriously degraded SA after the first pass or so.

--scharmers

[Brian Rucker]

I think I can handle it. I was a flightsimmer before I was a space simmer and my rig of choice is a Cougar HOTAS.

[Chris Nahr]

Wow... it's barely March and Empire Earth 2 is already a hot contender for Most Underwhelming Game of the Year. Come on, guys... little rocks sitting about in the prairie provide infinite amounts of stone, saltpeter, and gold? Tiny out-of-scale buildings? Peasants standing around dumbly, doing nothing unless prodded?

[krayzkrok]

I like the Starshatter demo too, and I might buy it if someone in Australia gets around to importing it.

But then last night I found a dusty box in the garage, and therein I found my copy of Freespace 2.

Three hours later, I was reminded why this is the best space sim bar nil, though clearly far more focussed than something like Starshatter or X2.

[tglennow]

How did you guys like the look of the water effect in EE 2?

[Chris Nahr]

Very nice. So are the gunfire effects. The engine technology is top notch, as with the first game.

[Desslock]

Yah Starshatter is definitely a gem of a game. Milo has done a great job with the design.

Don't discount X2 : The Threat. It's a deep game that will keep you busy for literally years. There is also an expansion coming out this year.

Yeah, another vote for X2 - it's gotten a lot better after its initial release. It's amazingly comprehensive now.

[Peter Frazier]

I'm trying to get back into X2, but everytime I start it up, I realise how much I dislike the interface. There's something about games that don't allow me to remap keys that really bugs me.
Maybe I should persist.

[Marcin]

I'm trying to get back into X2, but everytime I start it up, I realise how much I dislike the interface. There's something about games that don't allow me to remap keys that really bugs me.
Maybe I should persist.

X2 is so comprehensive it needs an RTS style interface for all of your ships. Select all, click and drag, queue'ing, mouse-over status report on everything...etcetera. Until it has that, bleh.

Has the combat bit gotten any better?

[Jasper]

Woa. X2 is a space sim?! Damn, I'd gotten it confused with some lousy X-Men movie knock off.

I guess I've been getting out of the house too much!

[Edit] Also, Nexus seems to have slipped out with hardly a whisper. Any space-simmers have an opinion on that?

[VegasRobb]

Aye, Kohan 2 is ace! But I mostly play in skirmish mode, when I feel like a "kohan" type game. Played Kohan 1 a lot on the web, in a great clan, but sadly to busy for that now and there doesn't seem to be much online action anyway when I look.

Hm ...what clan?

[TomChick]

Any space-simmers have an opinion on that?

Nexus isn't a space sim so much as a tactical RTS game. I recommend it. I have a review in this month's CGM.

-Tom

[Jasper]

Nexus isn't a space sim so much as a tactical RTS game. I recommend it. I have a review in this month's CGM.
Tactical, as in you don't collect resources and build units?

[TomChick]

Correct. Between missions, there's a very basic resource management scheme where you allocate points to kit your ships out with different weapons, drives, and other components. It's actually pretty cool and gives the game a fair amount of flexibility when you're not playing the more rigidly scripted missions where you have to use certain weapons and devices. I don't know if it's got much of an online following, but is was pretty nifty as a LAN game and I think there's a healthy mod community based on how long it's been out in Europe.

Seriously, if you're into space games, it's well worth it.

-Tom

[Jasper]

Hot damn that sounds good! I love games set in space, but have come to loath the economics/building end of RTSs. I'll definitely take a look.

[Desslock]

I'm trying to get back into X2, but everytime I start it up, I realise how much I dislike the interface. There's something about games that don't allow me to remap keys that really bugs me.
Maybe I should persist.

X2 is so comprehensive it needs an RTS style interface for all of your ships. Select all, click and drag, queue'ing, mouse-over status report on everything...etcetera. Until it has that, bleh.

Has the combat bit gotten any better?

It's not great, but there's so much to the game that doesn't really bother me. It's a kitchen sink game even more so than Derek's stuff, yet everything works at least "pretty well".

X2's ability to organize fleet battles is a pretty cool feature for a space sim - you can do that (in a different way) in Starshatter, but capital ship combat is pretty weak in Starshatter.

Man, I'd love an open-ended space sim with the polish and production values of Independence War 2, but with a more dynamic universe like Freelancer on steroids, the strategic and trading aspects of X2.

[krayzkrok]

Seriously, if you're into space games, it's well worth it.

So Tom how does Nexus compare with Hegemonia? It appears to share superficial similarities. I absolutely loved Hegemonia - it had just the right balance of tactics, limited resource gathering, and freedom, topped off with the best explosions ever (very important in a space game!).

[krayzkrok]

Man, I'd love an open-ended space sim with the polish and production values of Independence War 2, but with a more dynamic universe like Freelancer on steroids, the strategic and trading aspects of X2.

You just described the original design goals for Freelancer I think. I'd love to see a Freelancer 2 - sequels are usually the places where they fit all the features they had to drop from the original. Freelancer was so frustrating - such a good game, with a universe of lost potential.

[Marcin]

Freelancer would have to have a LOT of things done to it to make it have "strategic and trading aspects of X2". It would also probably defeat the pick-up-and-playness of the game...

Not to mind I wouldn't check it out, but I enjoyed FL for what it was. I don't really enjoy X2's "kitchen sink" approach (as mentioned above). Jack of all trades, master of none sort of thing.

Or maybe it's just that interface :D

[krayzkrok]

The key to a good indepth game, I think, is making the detail transparent for those who just want to dabble. Forcing micromanagement is the kiss of death in my opinion. I don't see why Freelancer couldn't have expanded upon its trading and universe for those that wanted to go that way. It was roundly criticised for being too shallow anyway.

X2 is a great game but you really have to fight the interface to get into it. Freelancer had a great introduction to it - enough hand-holding and storyline before it let you loose into the universe... so you could play variations on the same four mission types. :?

Plus it's always frustrating to play a game that doesn't do certain elements anything like as well as older games have (Eg. combat). You end up thinking "if only this was as visceral and responsive as Freespace!"

[Brian Rucker]

Got Starshatter today. Now, just one n00b question - where the heck is the serial number so I can load this thing?

[Enidigm]

Got Starshatter today. Now, just one n00b question - where the heck is the serial number so I can load this thing?

Its in the email, and in the conformation/receipt page. Its just not listed in a manner to draw attention to itself (i think its in a small box on the page).

[Enidigm]

How did you guys like the look of the water effect in EE 2?

I thought the water looked ok i guess - but i think pixel shaded water doesn't really add much and threatens to take away a great deal of performance from the majority of gamers.

Anyway i like EE2 in many ways, and its clear the designers tried to include many interesting and different environmental ideas. But EE2's inherent problem is making all the wizz-bang graphics meaningful to the gameplay.

The winter movement penalty and LOS reduction events have little meaningful effects, since the games rules don't really make these variables all that important. In a game like Rise of Nations which has the concept of attrition, otoh, a winter movement penalty could have a real gameplay effect.

[Brian Rucker]

Thanks SG. I'll check the confirmation email I was sent when I get home from work. Was just hoping to print out the manual here today. Damn kids not putting printed manuals in with games these days. Why, when I was their age we not only got a 5 lb manual but a cloth map to wipe our asses on, and miniature figurines to blow up with firecrackers, and we liked it!

[Sharpe]

As to Kohan, its really a very good game with the patch but the online community is so small its very hard to get a good game, and even then you have to deal with a lot of bad teammates.

I'm game to set a time for some QT3 games if we want to do that. We can play some less hardcore games, teaming up vs the AI or what-have-you.

I'd like to play some more but the game's low online population and somewhat ossified playerbase is a problem.

It's really too bad that this game didnt get the sales it deserved :(.

Dan

[Troy S Goodfellow]

I downloaded the EE2 demo last night and played it for a while. I don't think I'm going back any time soon.

The graphics are nice, and it's nice to see an AI that really invests in defensive structures at the normal level of difficulty, but there just isn't enough here to keep me around for long.

I'll admit to being an ornery RTS consumer. I want things to be different enough to justify buying it, but not so different that it reinvents too much and leaves me craving familiarity. EE2 falls into the "too similar to bother" category. I may pick it up (or find my brother-in-law buying it for me - he bought me Empires - Dawn of the Modern World), but probably not at full price.

Troy

[scharmers]

Thanks SG. I'll check the confirmation email I was sent when I get home from work. Was just hoping to print out the manual here today. Damn kids not putting printed manuals in with games these days. Why, when I was their age we not only got a 5 lb manual but a cloth map to wipe our asses on, and miniature figurines to blow up with firecrackers, and we liked it!

For whatever obscure reason, I managed to pick up an unopened EF2000 V2 recently. After cracking it open, the manual inside pretty much made me want to cry. It was big, it contained all the needed information, and (most of all) it was READABLE.

Sigh. The halcyon days of yore, days long lost.

--scharmers