Could the no return policy be bad for the industry?

[MikeTwain]

Of course we all hate the EB/Gamestop/Wallmart/Bestbuy/wherever no returns of opened software policy.The recent PC game sales numbers are making me wonder if it's possible that those policies are the reason for the declines.

I've noticed in the last two years that I actually buy far fewer titles at full price than I used to. I almost always wait for full reviews, and unless I'm completely convinced that I will love something I just don't buy at full price. I supplement my new game playing by buying lots of cheap used games. The retailer must keep most of the revenue on that deal.

Obviously the new regime is more beneficial to the retailers, but I'd like to propose that it's a lot less beneficial to the publishers and developers than you'd immediately think. Clearly it's bad for the pubs and devs when games get returned to them, but I wonder if it's possible that the current situation is actually worse than the old system because it punishes the consumer so highly for purchasing a game that they don't like.

The fact is that if I could return opened software I would buy many more titles at full price. I guess the question is this: is the decrease in purchases at full price offset by the diminished losses that come from returns?

Who wants to set me straight here?

[Nick Walter]

Why would someone return a game?

[Jasper Phillips]

I'd never thought of it like that, but it rings true to me.

Shoddy average game quality + no returns + big backlog of good games sum up to mean I typically wait and see. I have no qualms about paying full price (or for a good game, even more), but I absolutely hate dealing with broken games.

[Mattc0m]

Does "I get all my games free from steve" mean "No"?

[Jasper Phillips]

Why would someone return a game?
Either because it sucked, or didn't work. I've bought plenty of games from both catagories. Back in the day when I could return them, I did. Now I'm pissed when it happens, and buy much more carefully.

[MikeTwain]

Why would someone return a game?

I'll give you an example.

On a day in 1996 I bought the game "Lords of Midnight." This game was almost as much fun as getting a hair transplant with no anaesthesia. And the hair is being transplanted from your head to your nuts. And your nuts are on fire. And they've been sewn onto your ears. And your ears have been sown where your nuts used to be. And you're not even a dude.

This game was so craptacular that I actually returned it for Windows 95. Attempting to play this title left me so emotionally exhausted that I just needed time away from games for a few weeks.

That's why you might return something. Thankfully the only recent title that I can think of that sinks to this low is Half Life 2 though.

:twisted:

[MikeTwain]

Does "I get all my games free from steve" mean "No"?

Yeah...it's sort of the sH1t BoN3rz!! of this poll, with steve playing the part of sH1t BoN3rz!!

[Nick Walter]

Why would someone return a game?
Either because it sucked, or didn't work. I've bought plenty of games from both catagories. Back in the day when I could return them, I did. Now I'm pissed when it happens, and buy much more carefully.

You really consider "it sucked" a valid reason to return a game? If that was a common practice, I'm not surprised retailers are now being extremely picky about returns.

[MikeTwain]

You really consider "it sucked" a valid reason to return a game?

No question. Many games are far too expensive for me to consider it a "tough luck" kind of situation the way I would with a DVD or a book.

[Hans Lauring]

Where I live such a policy is illegal. Some shops try and use piracy as their excuse - it's still illegal and I'd never give a shop that tried my moneý.
On the other hand - 'it sucked' wouldn't be a valid reason. It would have to be broken, too buggy or somehow misrepresenting itself (wrong specifications/content claims) in order to let you return it.

We do have this nifty EU law, that anything bought online has to have a 14 day return period, where you can return it intact and resellable (ie all packaging intact) without giving ANY reason.

[Silverlight]

Reason number four to return a game:

Because it wreacks havok on your inner ear, causing you to immediately and irreversibly get dizzy for six to twelve hours, and you can't even risk playing it for long enough to find out whether Random Internet Fix #324 actually does anything to solve the problem.


You really consider "it sucked" a valid reason to return a game? If that was a common practice, I'm not surprised retailers are now being extremely picky about returns.

"It sucked" is a valid reason to return any retail product whatsoever. If an entertainment object fails at its basic purpose of entertaining, then it absolutely should go back. I don't see how this is debatable, unless you're wholesale taking the position of the retailers and publishers. It's one thing to, in a world full of assholes, say that buyers should beware. It's quite another to put all responsibility for bad products on those buyers as a matter of philosophy.

[eliandi]

I only buy maybe 5-10% of my games at full price, and typically wait for full reviews and reading forums before buying games. I have never been one to buy more than 5-7 or so games a year. I tend to buy games that I intend to play for a really long time, so they need to have depth and mod-ability.

[MikeTwain]

Good point...the issue of "other retail product" vs. "computer game" is usually right on the tip of my tongue. I can return a toaster because it's the wrong color for heaven's sake.

[Nick Walter]

Good point...the issue of "other retail product" vs. "computer game" is usually right on the tip of my tongue. I can return a toaster because it's the wrong color for heaven's sake.

I totally understand returning a product that didn't function, but returning a product because you thought it would be to your tastes but wasn't is rather silly. Some places might do it in the name of customer service but I certainly wouldn't if I had a retail game shop. If you buy a PC game you are taking a bit of a chance that it won't be to your tastes. Same as buying a DVD or a book. If you aren't sure or that dev/publisher has a spotty record then for god's sake wait for some reviews.

Heck, just by being a QT3 reader (no other gaming sites on my daily rotation) I find I can go to a games shop and find the gems hidden amonst the muck based on the QT3-Buzz factor.

[scharmers]

On day in 1996 I bought the game "Lords of Midnight."

Bad idea. "Midwinter" and the earlier games of the series were pretty good on the Amiga. "Lords of Midnight" was an unmitigated disaster.

--scharmers

[Jasper Phillips]

You really consider "it sucked" a valid reason to return a game? If that was a common practice, I'm not surprised retailers are now being extremely picky about returns.
Absolutely. If I can play the game for 15 minutes and find it just brutally sucks, I'd take it back. I don't think they are required to do this, I just think it's good business.

It's not like the retailers lose out on this either, as I'd turn around and buy something else. What's more, the fact that I know I can return shitty product means I actually end up buying more games, and when given a choice I buy where I can easily return them. Those making shitty games lose out, but that doesn't bother me.

Also, in practice taking it back because it doesn't work is the same as taking it back because you don't like it, as retailors can't tell the difference.
Retailors who won't accept returns for a game you don't like will also hassle you if the game just didn't work. I prefer retailors that will take a game back no questions asked (provided it's within a short and reasonable amount of time), and give you store credit in return.

A recent example, last year I went to get a copy of Super Monkey Ball 2 for my son at the game story next to Hollywood Video. I was in a hurry, and accidentally got Super Monkey Ball, much to my chagrin. I immediately went back to the store and said, "This is the wrong game, I meant to buy the more expensive version, and would like to upgrade". They said, "Sure, we'd be happy to give you store credit for your used copy of SMB-1 at cut rate, and sell you SMB-2 at full price". Yah? Well if they're going to screw me over minor mistakes, I'll take my business elsewhere.

[Tom McNamara]

Personally, I think the main reason for a lower bottom line with PC sales is the widespread conversion to high-speed Internet and the blossoming of P2P. Yes, this tech can be (and is) used for legit purposes, and IRC and Usenet already existed for many people, but things like Kazaa, Napster and eMule blew the doors off and made piracy nearly a generational cornerstone. On the heels of this, retailers stop accepting returns, making people all the more likely to "test a game out" with a download, rather than buy it. Or they download it, like it, and never quite get around to making the purchase.

[Jasper Phillips]

I totally understand returning a product that didn't function, but returning a product because you thought it would be to your tastes but wasn't is rather silly. Some places might do it in the name of customer service but I certainly wouldn't if I had a retail game shop. If you buy a PC game you are taking a bit of a chance that it won't be to your tastes. Same as buying a DVD or a book. If you aren't sure or that dev/publisher has a spotty record then for god's sake wait for some reviews.
Sure, buying at your shop one would be taking a chance. But if there were a shop down the street where I could buy without "taking a chance", I would -- even if they charged more.

[Jasper Phillips]

Personally, I think the main reason for a lower bottom line with PC sales is the widespread conversion to high-speed Internet and the blossoming of P2P. Yes, this tech can be (and is) used for legit purposes, and IRC and Usenet already existed for many people, but things like Kazaa, Napster and eMule blew the doors off and made piracy nearly a generational cornerstone. On the heels of this, retailers stop accepting returns, making people all the more likely to "test a game out" with a download, rather than buy it. Or they download it, like it, and never quite get around to making the purchase.
I don't see the connection. It's not like pirating is a new thing. Before P2P really caught on and when you could still return games, you could buy a game, burn a copy to a CD, and return it. Back in the C-64 days piracy truly ran rampant. The market was smaller, but I'd bet it was at least a prevalent.

Sure, having a liberal return policy means that some bastards will pirate your games. But treating your legitimate customers poorly is bad business, and how many of the theives would have bought the game anyway? Plus it's pretty easy to recognize the guys who are abusing your return policy, and just stop allowing them returns.

As an anology, look at movie rentals. It's mind numbingly easy to rent a movie and copy it, and much cheaper than buying it. Places like Netflix practically beg for such such piracy, and yet retail sale of movies is going strong. If you were really cheap you could even buy the movie retail, copy it, and return it.

[spacerat]

You really consider "it sucked" a valid reason to return a game? If that was a common practice, I'm not surprised retailers are now being extremely picky about returns.

For a long time the clerks at several of the EBs in my area would tell you on your way out to 'bring it back if you don't like it'. I took advantage of that many occasions.

Personally, it appears as though I will be contributing to the decline of retail sales this year by playing MMOs. I dont see myself buying any new games for several months at least...(except maybe a bargin bin game to play the *next* time a blizzard strikes new england and knocks out DSL)

[DaveC]

I buy more games than I used to. I just wait for enough reviews to come in before I jump on something I am not 100% sure of.

[MikeTwain]

So much for your vaunted beantown DSL!

:wink:

[DaveC]

Why would someone return a game?
Either because it sucked, or didn't work. I've bought plenty of games from both catagories. Back in the day when I could return them, I did. Now I'm pissed when it happens, and buy much more carefully.

When I worked at a computer store back in the dark ages we had a pretty liberal return policy. However even we had our limits. I remember the manager saying no to a guy because he wanted to return a game because it was "too hard". I'd have to say I agree with what he did. Also, returns cost money and sometimes a lot of money. Just ask places like Wal Mart and Costco how much returns figure into their bottom line every year. Do you ask for your money back at the theatre after a particularly bad movie (AvP for instance)?

[Jasper Phillips]

That's a bad move IMHO, rewarding the customers who lie to you "it wouldn't install". That customer likely would have got something else, and if you'd helped him out of his self-inflicted tight spot he'd almost certainly keep coming back. Treat him like that, and he'll buy his games elsewhere.

There's no way to tell why the game is really returned, so if you're going to accept returns at all it should be no questions asked. The only people I'd decline are those who return far more games than they buy.

Oh, and the movie theater ticket game-cd analogy is a bad one, as goods and services are distinctly different things.

[wildpokerman]

If I owned a large retail company I would set it up so that people who bought my store tracking card like the media play replay card or the best buy club card could return games. Of course the return of games would be tracked and if in a year you returned more than 10% of your games you would not be allowed to renew.

[Tom McNamara]

Personally, I think the main reason for a lower bottom line with PC sales is the widespread conversion to high-speed Internet and the blossoming of P2P. Yes, this tech can be (and is) used for legit purposes, and IRC and Usenet already existed for many people, but things like Kazaa, Napster and eMule blew the doors off and made piracy nearly a generational cornerstone. On the heels of this, retailers stop accepting returns, making people all the more likely to "test a game out" with a download, rather than buy it. Or they download it, like it, and never quite get around to making the purchase.

I don't see the connection. It's not like pirating is a new thing. Before P2P really caught on and when you could still return games, you could buy a game, burn a copy to a CD, and return it. Back in the C-64 days piracy truly ran rampant. The market was smaller, but I'd bet it was at least a prevalent.


Connection:


The recent PC game sales numbers are making me wonder if it's possible that those policies are the reason for the declines.

With P2P, you don't even need to purchase the game in the first place. You don't need to leave the house.

[Dave Long]

Why should I buy a PC game for $39.99 or more when PC games depreciate faster in value than any other form of entertainment on the shelf? I can wait a month or two and pay $19.99.

There just aren't enough people buying at full price to support that price anymore except for the biggest of big PC games. Even then, I could already get Half-Life 2 for $39.99 or less (down from $54.99) a lot of places because discounting has already begun. That is if I wanted to install Steam and be held hostage by Valve, which I don't...

Anyway, I think the biggest reasons for PC game sales decline are consoles, MMOGs, deep discounting within a month of release, constant fiddling with fucking drivers and bullshit install/play problems due to drivers/copy protection and piracy. Return policies play a very minor role and for the most part, if you're bitchy enough, they'll do an exchange, especially if you're a good customer.

BIG BUDGET PC GAMES are going to decline. Unless they are released as ports of console games, there isn't going to be room in the market for them soon. PCs are getting so cheap but they're also becoming less and less capable as games machines when they're sold cheap. Joe Consumer doesn't want the PC for the games, he wants it for his kids to do papers and so he can sell stuff on eBay. The enthusiasts are slowly being chipped away by consoles like Xbox and hardware makers are less and less able to push the latest and greatest hardware at premium prices. There will always be PC games, but there will be less and less BIG BUDGET ones every year.

--Dave

[Rollory]

You really consider "it sucked" a valid reason to return a game? If that was a common practice, I'm not surprised retailers are now being extremely picky about returns.


This is AMERICA, and in AMERICA, when something sucks, you get your money back!

Yeah, if I buy a game, and I hate it, then I did not get the entertainment I paid for, and I'm not going to let the company keep my money when they didn't earn it. I don't care whether THEY think they earned it, or what they did to justify claiming they earned it. If the product isn't entertaining for me, they have no right to my money. They can have as much of everybody else's as they like, but not mine.

I've bought exactly one PC game in the past year and a half, and that's Dom2.

[Moore]

Why would someone return a game?
Either because it sucked, or didn't work. I've bought plenty of games from both catagories. Back in the day when I could return them, I did. Now I'm pissed when it happens, and buy much more carefully.

You really consider "it sucked" a valid reason to return a game? If that was a common practice, I'm not surprised retailers are now being extremely picky about returns.

C'mon. The box said it was super awesome, and it wasnt. If they can lie, we can steal our cash back. A HUUUGE number of games are turds. I think I enjoy maybe 60% of the games I buy and I try to do a great deal of looking into them before I bite.

It's like walking out of a movie and getting your money back. (I know this is probablyl impossible now, but I did it with Last Action Hero when I was in High School)

[Daly]

My local game store lets me being games back for any reason at all within 10 days. I, naturally, think that's excellent and buy all my games in there because of the confidence i have in that if i get a dud game that i expected to be good then i'm still not out of pocket. I've had to use it on a rare occasion or two. Apart from that they've made a fortune out of me.

There are two other game stores in the area that won't accept returns unless there's a fault and i don't buy anything in either of them for that reason.

If there are many more people like me out there then their 'any reason' returns policy makes a hell of a lot of sense.

[DaveC]

There's no way to tell why the game is really returned, so if you're going to accept returns at all it should be no questions asked. The only people I'd decline are those who return far more games than they buy.

Oh, and the movie theater ticket game-cd analogy is a bad one, as goods and services are distinctly different things.

How do you propose to track those people? As for the analogy, it fits because even though you are sometime buying a physical object (game box, CD, etc) you are still only buying the right to play it. Look at Steam, you don't even get a physical objects. So, yes the analogy works.

[Jasper Phillips]

"Still only buying the right to play it"? I don't buy that line. For example, I can resell a game, expect defective product to be replaced, etc. It is _not_ a service.

Steam attempts to blur these lines, which is a large factor in all of the bad press Valve gets. I don't mind cutting out the middle men to pay them directly, but I most definitely do mind their attempt to sell their product as a service. You can't resell it, if it's defective you're hosed, and if they stop supporting it you're hosed.

Oh, and how do you track these people? Credit Card number? Membership Cards? Require them to fill out stuff when they return a game? Becoming acquainted with your customers? Customer service?

[DaveC]

My local game store lets me being games back for any reason at all within 10 days. I, naturally, think that's excellent and buy all my games in there because of the confidence i have in that if i get a dud game that i expected to be good then i'm still not out of pocket. I've had to use it on a rare occasion or two. Apart from that they've made a fortune out of me.

There are two other game stores in the area that won't accept returns unless there's a fault and i don't buy anything in either of them for that reason.

If there are many more people like me out there then their 'any reason' returns policy makes a hell of a lot of sense.

The big problem there is that if it's a serial numbered game it might not be returnable to the distributor and if that's the case the store might have to eat the cost. The wholesale price to retail ratio is pretty bad (30:40 for example) so, if the retailer eats that he has to sell 3 more games to make up for it.

I think a big part of the issue is that people seem to be far more likely to abuse return policies than before. It's backfired on retailers that brought in these policies to attract customers and that it's widespread and abused they are finding it is doing more harm than good in some cases. My brother-in-law is a perfect example of this. I told him he was a jerk for going to Future Shop, buying a digital camera and then returning it after his vacation. My best friend's brother used to buy furniture at Ikea and then return it and get his buddy to buy it from the As-Is room. They did this with PC parts too. So there is more than one side to this issue.

[DaveC]

"Still only buying the right to play it"? I don't buy that line. For example, I can resell a game, expect defective product to be replaced, etc. It is _not_ a service.

Steam attempts to blur these lines, which is a large factor in all of the bad press Valve gets. I don't mind cutting out the middle men to pay them directly, but I most definitely do mind their attempt to sell their product as a service. You can't resell it, if it's defective you're hosed, and if they stop supporting it you're hosed.

Oh, and how do you track these people? Credit Card number? Membership Cards? Require them to fill out stuff when they return a game? Becoming acquainted with your customers? Customer service?

You don't own any game, you just own the right to play it and possibly to sell that license to someone else and whatever else if covered by consumer law where you live. As for customer cards I'll only agree to that if I get some kind of substantial reward in return for my information and tracking by credit card number might not be legal, I know that's an iffy area due to privacy laws in Canada. Customer service is a great idea, but then you get into the difference between a big box store like Best Buy and a mom and pop shop. If you are willing to pay the extra to go to the smaller shop they'll be more flexible, I know I was. If you go to the big stores you don't know if you'll even see the same salesperson twice. You have a lot of ideas, but the bottom line is what drives business and if it doesn't make sense there, then a lot of companies won't consider it. I think if these stores were more up front about how they handle returns instead of using fine print excuses people would at least make their purchases with that in mind.

[Jasper Phillips]

I think a big part of the issue is that people seem to be far more likely to abuse return policies than before.
Hmmm, good point. I've only rarely taken advantage of return policies, and only if a game just didn't work or was absurdly bad. However I know people like you describe, and enough of those will certainly make it infeasible.

[Jasper Phillips]

You don't own any game, you just own the right to play it and possibly to sell that license to someone else and whatever else if covered by consumer law where you live.
That's not my understanding of how it works. Sure, I don't own the _copyright_ to a game, but owning the game CD is the same as owning a book, boardgame, or music CD, and entails the same rights. Publishers try to tell you differently with crummy EULAs, but I don't think that's been held up by courts in the US (although IANAL).

[shift6]

Besides Thief 3 and the Painkiller BOOH expansion, I haven't paid full price for a game in years.

[Dave Long]

The abusers are the ones that killed the return policy at EB. Blame them.

--Dave

[Daly]

The big problem there is that if it's a serial numbered game it might not be returnable to the distributor and if that's the case the store might have to eat the cost. The wholesale price to retail ratio is pretty bad (30:40 for example) so, if the retailer eats that he has to sell 3 more games to make up for it.

Well despite their 'any reason' returns policy, if you've damaged the game or box/manual etc they won't accept it back. You break it, you buy it kind of thing.

When they do accept games back and if they're in good condition then they always will, they simply appear to re-circulate them back on to the shelves as new or as new at a slightly reduced price if they look a bit worn... ie €55 instead of €60.

As you say though for traders who don't do that however the cost would be prohibitive.

[Jazar]

Person buys game.

Person does full install on game.

Person downloads NO-CD crack for game.

Person returns game for full refund.


I can see why stores don't accept returns anymore.

[MikeTwain]

Stupid perfect digital copies.

What we really need are some good old analog storage devices that degrade when copied. So when you play a pirated game the audio pops and crackles and crazy visual artifacts float around and you can't beat the final boss.

[Jose Liz]

Person buys game.

Person does full install on game.

Person downloads NO-CD crack for game.

Person returns game for full refund.


I can see why stores don't accept returns anymore.
Yup.. and people who bought games on fridays only to return then on Mondays... when someone abuses everyone pays.

[Derek Meister]

So what's to stop the company from tracking returns, for example through a requirement of having a photo id to get anything other than another copy of the same game, and having a policy for excessive returns?

The system can only get abused if they allow it.

[Nick Walter]

So what's to stop the company from tracking returns, for example through a requirement of having a photo id to get anything other than another copy of the same game, and having a policy for excessive returns?

The system can only get abused if they allow it.

I imagine because there's too much overhead, too much complexity, too many minimum wage teenage employees who won't follow complex procedures properly, and too much chance of offending singled-out customers. There comes a point where it's easier to just make a blanket rule and eat the cost of a little customer ill will.

I can't say I've ever worked in a retail games shop though, so maybe I'm overestimating the complexity of implementing such a system.

[Jazar]

Because its not worth the effort to them. I'd love to see some stats on sales lost due to stores dropping the open box return policy.

[Mattc0m]

This is easy. Setup a Member ID card for each member - you need a name, address, ect. Maybe a credit card attached. Like a video rental card. Then, if you return a faulty game, it gets charged to your account or something.

Just an idea. A swipe of a card shouldn't be too complex for minimum-wage teenagers.

[Dave Long]

Because its not worth the effort to them. I'd love to see some stats on sales lost due to stores dropping the open box return policy.

It's probably negligible. In fact, since the game industry keeps growing (other than PC games of course) despite the no return policy everywhere now, it's pretty obvious that no one stopped buying games because they couldn't return them except maybe the PC pirates who quite possibly were artificially inflating sales only to generate large numbers of returns.

--Dave

[Jasper Phillips]

I don't think that's quite so clear. I'm not nearly so wary buying console games as I don't worry about them not working, and generally they're simple enough it's pretty easy to figure out if I'll like them ahead of time.

In short I don't much care whether returns are accepted for a console game, but I definitely do care for PC games.

[Dave Long]

I'd bet that you are still buying the same number of PC games in a year though, well, except for the fact there are less interesting PC games to actually buy in a year...

I really think the no-return policy thing is a non-event regarding sales. If anything, it probably has allowed EB to KEEP more of the money they take in on PC games.

--Dave

[DaveC]

This is easy. Setup a Member ID card for each member - you need a name, address, ect. Maybe a credit card attached. Like a video rental card. Then, if you return a faulty game, it gets charged to your account or something.

Just an idea. A swipe of a card shouldn't be too complex for minimum-wage teenagers.

Like I've said before, unless they offer me something in exchange for this I would shop elsewhere. There is enough data collected on me day to day without volunteering more.

[Jasper Phillips]

How much would you like to bet, Dave? ;-)

I now find myself walking into game stores, looking at what's there, and deciding it's not worth risking a purchase without extensive internet research. When I knew I could return games no hassle, I would have bought something that simply looked cool.

Certainly there are other factors, such as having less time on my hands, but the lack of trust and "buyer beware" of the PC gaming market makes a big difference. Perhaps it doesn't to you, but it does to me -- and judging from this thread I'm not the only one either.

[Jasper Phillips]

Like I've said before, unless they offer me something in exchange for this I would shop elsewhere. There is enough data collected on me day to day without volunteering more.
I tend to agree, but if I could return bad games I might reconsider. If you're shopping with plastic they already have all this info anyway.

[DaveC]

Like I've said before, unless they offer me something in exchange for this I would shop elsewhere. There is enough data collected on me day to day without volunteering more.
I tend to agree, but if I could return bad games I might reconsider. If you're shopping with plastic they already have all this info anyway.

Here's the slippery slope - http://www.adcritic.com/interactive/view.php?id=5927

[DaveC]

Like I've said before, unless they offer me something in exchange for this I would shop elsewhere. There is enough data collected on me day to day without volunteering more.
I tend to agree, but if I could return bad games I might reconsider. If you're shopping with plastic they already have all this info anyway.

It depends on where you live. I think the law in Canada dictates what kind of personal data they can store and that includes linking credit card numbers to your data. In fact Future Shop had a sign up a while ago that they no longer kept receipts on file because of FOIP (Freedom of Information Protection) and if you lost yours you were SOL for warranty.

[Jasper Phillips]

I'd love for such things to be true in the US, but I don't think they are. :-(

Moving to Canada seems more and more like the thing to do. When I sit down and try to think of why I prefer to live in the US over Canada, I can't think of a single damn thing aside from the people I know.