LotR questions... dumb mostly

[Jakub]

Since I can't read the books without my brain shutting down from the mind-numbing useless details, I'm trying to fill in a few gaps that the movies don't explain.

Why are the elves leaving? What's this place that they're going? If it's better, why the heck bother with Middle Earth anyway? Isn't defeating Sauron a little more important than taking a vacation on some island?

Orcs/goblins. Aren't they the same? The movie seems to use the words interchangeably, but then Sarumon says he crossed orcs and goblin men to make uruk-hai?

That necklace that Aragon gets... what's the big deal with it? Don't tell me that's how elves maintain their immortality. (lie if you have to.)

If orcs and most evil things turn to stone in daylight, how was the world ever threatened by them? A kid with a sledgehammer could destroy a stone army.

Are orcs really supposed to be able to climb like spiders? You don't see elves doing that...

From my first and only reading of the books, I remember Boromir was a total gimp. Yet in the movie he is my favorite character. Did the movie redeem him more than it should have, or is my memory/interpretation of the books bad?

[graller]

The only elves leaving are the "High" elves. These were the Noldor who had travelled to the land of the gods in the west in an earlier age and had returned to Middle Earth to fight Morkoth - Sauron's boss. In the end of that war the gods returned to Middle Earth, defeeated Morkoth and "bent" the world so only the Noldor could return to Valinor - the land of the gods. The elves are immortal and after a time tire of Middle Earth and yearn to return to Valinor. This is the leave-taking they talk about. The reason they are all going to leave now is that the next age will be dominated by Sauron or Men leaving no room for the remaining Noldor. As a side note Legolas is a Wood elf and is not entitled to go to Valinor.

Orcs/goblins are interchangeable in the books.

Arwen is special. She is the daughter of Elrond Half-Elven. Elrond's mother was a Noldor and his father was human. His brother chose mortality and founded the kingdom of Numenor - the land the Gondorians came from. Elrond chose his Elven heritage and is immortal. Arwen has the same choice to make. She can chose Elven and go to the West or she can chose mortality and "become" human. The necklace is a symbol of her decision to want to be human and stay with Aragorn.

Orcs do not turn to stone. Only Trolls do. Orcs however fear daylight and do not fight effectively in it.

Boromir was not a gimp. He was a noble of Gondor, son of the Steward. His pride in Gondor and its people and its needs blinded him to the peril of using the ring. He fell under its spell and tried to take it from Frodo. He redeemed himself defending the hobbits from the Orcs and died nobly at the end of FOTR.

[Bub, Andrew]

Boromir, as a character, I think, was given short shrift by Tolkien, so I see why you'd call him a gimp. I think the reason you liked him so much in FOTR was because Sean Bean was brilliant (I love his "I care not" when he picks up the ring from the snow) and because the writers/Jackson chose to use him to dramatically illustrate the attraction and corrupting influence of the ring.

For example, Tolkien had no scene showing Boromir teaching the hobbits to sword fight and rolling around with them on the ground laughing, or pleading with Aragorn to have pity and let everyone mourn Gandalf, these touches make his turn to evil at the end more tragic and his redemption and death something that makes my wife cry every time she sees it.

[graller]

Excellent points Andrew.....

[Jakub]

The only elves leaving are the "High" elves. These were the Noldor who had travelled to the land of the gods in the west in an earlier age and had returned to Middle Earth to fight Morkoth - Sauron's boss. In the end of that war the gods returned to Middle Earth, defeeated Morkoth and "bent" the world so only the Noldor could return to Valinor - the land of the gods. The elves are immortal and after a time tire of Middle Earth and yearn to return to Valinor. This is the leave-taking they talk about. The reason they are all going to leave now is that the next age will be dominated by Sauron or Men leaving no room for the remaining Noldor. As a side note Legolas is a Wood elf and is not entitled to go to Valinor.

Hmm... so is this some irresistable urge to leave? I mean, they can't finish the job or do they simply not want to risk their lives for humans? What they're doing is kind of a self-inflicted prophecy. They choose not to participate so of course they won't have a leading role in the world.

I'm confused now about what makes the high elves so special that they're the only ones that can go to Valinor. Is it because they were the only ones to go visit in the first place?

Interesting that it took gods to beat Morkoth, but Sauron falls to mortal hands.


Arwen is special. She is the daughter of Elrond Half-Elven. Elrond's mother was a Noldor and his father was human. His brother chose mortality and founded the kingdom of Numenor - the land the Gondorians came from. Elrond chose his Elven heritage and is immortal. Arwen has the same choice to make. She can chose Elven and go to the West or she can chose mortality and "become" human. The necklace is a symbol of her decision to want to be human and stay with Aragorn.

Whoah, so Aragorn and Arwen are gonna be kissing cousins :D But seriously, it's kind of hard to believe anyone would wish to be mortal. I'm also a little bugged by the elitist attitude Tolkien has. Sure men can rule the world, but only if a man with elven blood rules them.


Orcs do not turn to stone. Only Trolls do. Orcs however fear daylight and do not fight effectively in it.

Ah, k, that makes more sense then.

[Jakub]

Boromir, as a character, I think, was given short shrift by Tolkien, so I see why you'd call him a gimp. I think the reason you liked him so much in FOTR was because Sean Bean was brilliant (I love his "I care not" when he picks up the ring from the snow) and because the writers/Jackson chose to use him to dramatically illustrate the attraction and corrupting influence of the ring.

For example, Tolkien had no scene showing Boromir teaching the hobbits to sword fight and rolling around with them on the ground laughing, or pleading with Aragorn to have pity and let everyone mourn Gandalf, these touches make his turn to evil at the end more tragic and his redemption and death something that makes my wife cry every time she sees it.

Right. I just remember being annoyed with him and with the party for keeping him around when reading the books. Like it was sooooooo obvious what he was going to do and he had no redeeming features at all.

I'm really surprised I can't stand the books, but adore the movies... but I guess in addition to Tolkien's long-windedness, it's touches like this that make the difference.

[Reeko]

But seriously, it's kind of hard to believe anyone would wish to be mortal.

Tolkein explained this. He said that Elvish immortality was both a gift and a curse because eventually the Elves would become weary of the world. There would be nothing new for them to experience and eventually the world would be dull and boring.

I think.

I think I think so.

Wherefore art thou, Desslock?

[Chris]

I'm confused now about what makes the high elves so special that they're the only ones that can go to Valinor

A hasty and very brief overview.

The High Elves are the only ones to have seen and remember the Two Trees which at the time held the light of the world, so to speak. Morgoth had the trees attacked and poisoned, but not before Feanor (the most powerful of the elves ever) captured part of the light in the Simarils, jewels he created at the height of his skill. The Simarils are what Morgoth lusted after and eventually wrested from Feanor, which lead to the sundering of the lands. The strife caused the elves to migrate to what became Middle-earth.

[graller]

I won't confuse you too much more I hope. There were actually two branches of High Elves in Valinor. Faenor was of the Noldor - a more "techie" race of Elves. Craftsmen and Magic users of skill. When the Silmarils' were stolen by Morkoth the Noldor decided to return to Middle-Earth to take them back. In the process they committed a horrible crime in Valinor so the gods turned against them. After much hardship they had lost the war and most of their people to Morkoth. At this point Earendil takes ship with the one Silmaril they had been able to recover and sails toward Valinor though there was no longer a way to get there. Because he has the Silmaril he is allowed thru and it is his story of what befell the Noldor that inspire the gods to return to Middle Earth and fight. I may not have this exactly right but it is his two children - Elrond and Exxxxx <founder of Numenor>.

The boredom/yearning is nothing the Elves have control over. FYI most of the elves had not been departing prior to this war. They had lost most of their numbers in the "Last Battle". The one portrayed at the start of FOTR. The Elves left stuck it out till after the Lord of the Rings. They decide to leave then because their works are fading....the rings that maintained Rivendell and Lorien no longer function with the destruction of the One Ring. This is the final blow that causes them to depart for good. Also they did fight extensively against the Shadow during this timeframe. it was to to the North and not central to the main storyline in the books.

[graller]

Also the decision to be human had been made long ago by Aragorn's ancestor. He did not have the choice and frankly had no "elvish" blood. The Numenorean people as a whole enjoyed a longer then average life span because they had been blessed by the gods as the decendents of Earendil. I don't have the Appendix in front of me but I think Aragorn lives for some 250-300 years? Might even be 400

[milo]

Interesting that it took gods to beat Morkoth, but Sauron falls to mortal hands.

Well, there are gods, and there are gods, if you see what I mean. In Tolkien's mythos, there is one God "Eru" whom the elves name "Iluvitar," who created the universe. Eru's first act was to create the Ainur (lesser gods) of his own thought. Together the Ainur and Eru made a great music in the void. Eru was pleased with this work, so he gave the music being and the result was Ea or Arda, the entire world.

Of the Ainur or Valar, the greatest were Manwe (the god of air) and his wife Varda (the goddess of light whom the Elves name "Elbereth") and Melkor. Melkor is the Lucifer character in Tolkien's world. He was the mightiest of the Valar, but he rebelled against the plan of Iluvitar, wishing to have dominion over others instead of working together with them.

Lesser than the Valar are the Maia (angels or protecting spirits). There are many of these, often acting as heralds of the Valar. All of the wise - Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast - are Maia that have been sent to live in Middle Earth to guide and protect the Children of Iluvitar. Sauron, whom the Elves name Gorthaur the Abhorrent, was also a Maia. Sauron was deceived by Melkor and became his lieutenant, the chief guard of Melkor's fortress in the north of Middle Earth.

The Children of Iluvitar are the Elves and Men. The Elves are the Firstborn of Iluvitar and were awakened in Middle Earth before the sun or moon or even the Two Trees gave light. They are called the Eldar or "star-people" because they first walked under the stars. Men are the Atani or followers because they came after the Elves.

Morgoth "the Black Foe of the World" is the name given to the god Melkor by Feanor after Melkor destroyed the Two Trees, killed Feanor's father, and stole Feanor's most prized creation - the Silmarils.

So: Morgoth could not be defeated by the power of the Elves because he was of the Valar. It took the combined power of all the other Valar to defeat Morgoth and cast him out into the void.

Sauron was defeated (temporarily) in battle by the combined strength of the Elf king Gil-Galad and Elendil, Isildur's father, though the battle destroyed them both. Unlike the movie, Isildur actually took the ring from Sauron after he had already been defeated.

And Galadriel is Elrond's mother-in-law.

[Anonymous]

Just a note about Morgoth. One elf challenged him to combat, Fingolfin, and he stood toe to toe with him. Fingolfin struck Morgoth seven times wounding him. Fingolfin, eventually grew tired from the combat, and tripped over a hole in the ground, that was created by the strength of their blows. Morgoth used this opportunity to stand on Fingolfin's neck, breaking it, but before Fingolfin died, he hacked off Morgoth's foot. Morgoths wounds from that battle never healed.

The early elves were quite powerful. Which is something that doesn't come across too well in the movies.

Flavius

[Jakub]

So Galadriel got possessed by a ring?

That's quite a bit of history. The world does make more sense now, especially the orc armies.

[graller]

HEHE - Desslock already tried explaning how the Elven rings were protected from Sauron. They were made without his direct knowledge and never worn while Sauron held the One Ring. But after the loss of the ring and the defeat of Sauron Elrond and Galadriel and Gandalf wielded the untainted Elven Rings. The lost there power after the One Ring was unmade.

[Jakub]

HEHE - Desslock already tried explaning how the Elven rings were protected from Sauron. They were made without his direct knowledge and never worn while Sauron held the One Ring. But after the loss of the ring and the defeat of Sauron Elrond and Galadriel and Gandalf wielded the untainted Elven Rings. The lost there power after the One Ring was unmade.

That just makes no sense.

So the elven rings were made separately and without Sauron's knowledge. Yet they're tied to the One Ring? And the One Ring's inscription refers to them? I'm just plain confused now.

[Anonymous]

So the elven rings were made separately and without Sauron's knowledge. Yet they're tied to the One Ring?

They were made using skills taught to the Elves by Sauron. Those skills were dark, and were able to corrupt the creation of the rings, even without his presence.

Flavius

[Desslock]

Interesting that it took gods to beat Morkoth, but Sauron falls to mortal hands..

Well, Melkor was a god himself, and the most powerful of them, except maybe Manwe (Zeus). Sauron was just a Maiar, a spirit, like Gandalf.

[Desslock]

So the elven rings were made separately and without Sauron's knowledge. Yet they're tied to the One Ring?

They were made using skills taught to the Elves by Sauron. Those skills were dark, and were able to corrupt the creation of the rings, even without his presence.

And the poem "inscription" was added later.

[Jakub]

Interesting that it took gods to beat Morkoth, but Sauron falls to mortal hands..

Well, Melkor was a god himself, and the most powerful of them, except maybe Manwe (Zeus). Sauron was just a Maiar, a spirit, like Gandalf.

I take it that the various Maiar aren't equally powerful? So Gandalf isn't as strong as Saruman (mostly anyway), and neither has Sauron's power. Oh... when Sauron tricked everyone with the rings, he wasn't obviously evil yet, like on Melkor's side? more questions. Actually, that makes me wonder. Since they're all angel-type spirits, how come Saruman and Gandalf are wizards who had to learn magic? (or it seems so, anyway.) Was Sauron always a monstrosity, or was he human-looking like Gandalf and Saruman?

I really, really like the world. I find it fascinatingly deep, I just wish I could read the books :(

[Anonymous]

I take it that the various Maiar aren't equally powerful?

Correct. Maiar is a class of spirit, so to speak.


Sauron tricked everyone with the rings, he wasn't obviously evil yet, like on Melkor's side?

Sauron was Melkor's second in command, going back to the age when time began. He was a follower since Melkor disrupted the great chorus of Illuvatar. So he was evil since the beginning. He used to be a master of changing shape, and he disguised himself as a person named Allatar, and offered to teach the elves the lore of impowering rings. And they fell for it.


Since they're all angel-type spirits, how come Saruman and Gandalf are wizards who had to learn magic?

They never had to learn magic.


Was Sauron always a monstrosity, or was he human-looking like Gandalf and Saruman?

He was a shape shifter by nature, and often would take pleasing shapes. He, was at first the lord of the WereWolves, and would take the shape of a wolf often. But as Allatar he was very pleasing, and so the elves were decieved by him.

Flavius

[Jakub]

Since they're all angel-type spirits, how come Saruman and Gandalf are wizards who had to learn magic?

They never had to learn magic.
Flavius

If they never had to learn magic, how come Saruman founded an order and Gandalf joined it? I think this was a wizard's order or something, right? That seems to imply Gandalf learned...?

[Anonymous]

If they never had to learn magic, how come Saruman founded an order and Gandalf joined it?

This is a misunderstanding.

The Wizards order were selected by the Valar specifically to go to Middle Earth to contest with Sauron, but to never match their power against his. They were there to guide the free people of Middle Earth in their resistance.

Saruman was selected to lead the order, because he was the most powerful. Many of the Valar wanted Gandalf to lead because he was the wisest, but he resisted the idea, and also wasn't too keen on going in the first place.

There were 5 Istari (Wizards) sent, Saurman, Radaghast, Pallando, Alatar, and Gandalf. Of them, Pallando and Alatar went to the east, and were never heard of again, Radaghast got seduced by nature, and never made an impact. Saruman and Gandalf we all know about.

Flavius

[Anonymous]

A short correction, I misspelled the name Sauron used to decieve the elves. It was Annatar, not Allatar. Sorry.

Funk.

[Jakub]

This is a misunderstanding.

The Wizards order were selected by the Valar specifically to go to Middle Earth to contest with Sauron, but to never match their power against his. They were there to guide the free people of Middle Earth in their resistance.

Saruman was selected to lead the order, because he was the most powerful. Many of the Valar wanted Gandalf to lead because he was the wisest, but he resisted the idea, and also wasn't too keen on going in the first place.

There were 5 Istari (Wizards) sent, Saurman, Radaghast, Pallando, Alatar, and Gandalf. Of them, Pallando and Alatar went to the east, and were never heard of again, Radaghast got seduced by nature, and never made an impact. Saruman and Gandalf we all know about.

Flavius

Hmm... OK.

That seems like a big opening for more story, with Pallando and Alatar disappearing. Is Radaghast = Tom Bombadil?

[Chris]

No, Radagast is not Bombadill. He actually is in the book, Saruman sends him to find Gandalf and deliver a message for him. Gandalf had developed misgivings about Saruman's interest in the history of the One Ring but Radagast message lulled those feelings enough for Gandalf to go to Orthanc. Radagast basically said he had no interest in the affairs of men and elves and left the story at that point.

[Jakub]

Last question then. Any reason in particular that except for Sauron, all the Maiar are basically human-looking (though they do seem somewhat tall...)

[graller]

Sauron could shape shift as mentioned earlier. But prior to the loss of the ring he could appear much as the Istari do. It was the loss of the ring that resulted in his only being able to manifest as the lidless eye.

[Desslock]

Sauron could shape shift as mentioned earlier. But prior to the loss of the ring he could appear much as the Istari do. It was the loss of the ring that resulted in his only being able to manifest as the lidless eye.

And only because he hadn't yet gathered enough strength to recreate his body.

[ydejin]

No, Radagast is not Bombadill. He actually is in the book.

Also in the book, Radagast is also the one who sends the Eagle which rescues Gandalf from atop the Orthanc. He doesn't actually know Gandalf's been captured, but sends the Eagle to tell Gandalf some news about Orc troop movements in the Misty Mountain. When the Eagle sees that Gandalf is trapped, it rescues him.

The bit with the moth seems to be added by Peter Jackson. I thought there was a scene with a sparrow from Radagast (instead of a moth) in the book, but I couldn't find it, so I think I'm confusing that with something that happens earlier in the Fellowship of the Ring.

[Gundaliro]

antlers comment in that other thread seems more and more accurate as I read this thread:

"I think it is appropriate that [Tolkien's] work appeared at the dawn of the "Software Age," which is all about totally invented worlds with intricate, arbitrary rules that someone just made up, but that are nevertheless carefully observed."

Emphasis on the "intricate" and "arbitrary", especially when I read lines like: "They were made using skills taught to the Elves by Sauron. Those skills were dark, and were able to corrupt the creation of the rings, even without his presence." Oh, OKAY, dark skills.

[Anonymous]

I thought there was a scene with a sparrow from Radagast (instead of a moth) in the book, but I couldn't find it

Perhaps you're thinking of Bard, from the Hobbit?

[Anonymous]

Emphasis on the "intricate" and "arbitrary", especially when I read lines like: "They were made using skills taught to the Elves by Sauron. Those skills were dark, and were able to corrupt the creation of the rings, even without his presence." Oh, OKAY, dark skills.

Yeah, if Tolkein has really been prescient he would have written, "Those skills were L337, and were able to OWNZOR teh creation of the rings even without camping. You loose."

[Greenie]

I really, really like the world. I find it fascinatingly deep, I just wish I could read the books :(

You might want to pick up a copy of "The Atlas of Middle Earth" by Karen Fonstead - besides lots of detailed maps, it has a lot of Cliff-note like synopses of the major events from the Hobbit, LOTR and the Silmarillion. I find I refer to it a lot when I can't quite remember how a particular name or place fits into the backstory of the book or movie!

[Ergo]

From what I understand, Sauron actually DID have a physical form in the books, though not a very attractive one. His body was "black and smoking" or somesuch (the Arda website is currently down, otherwise I'd make an exact quote). Gollum describes him at one point. The lidless eye was representative of Sauron's all-seeing power.