Stripper Poll (Hehe, get it)

[Tyjenks]

So by tipping strippers, are you enabling their choice of profession that all too often leads to drug addiction, prostituion, and/or a lack of sufficient job skills with which to support themselves when they are forced into retirement at 35? While I would like to believe at least one of the 100 that say, "I am just doing this to pay my way through college" is being honest, I am pretty sure that is akin to a beggar who says he is homeless/out of gas/trying to buy food for his hungry puppy/et.al. , none of which are true.

OR

Are you supporting women who have chosen a career path using the tools (factory installed or add-ons at the shop) they have and making much more than they could otherwise? All of this while providing a service to the community.

Voters for "Stripping is Evil" will have to simply choose option #1. I wanted a reall 2 option poll for once.

[Timemaster Tim]

Tipping strippers is a bad thing. But it's mostly because they ought to be making enough from lap dances that they shouldn't have a tip.

[steve]

Do you go through this same thought process when deciding whether or not to tip your waiter, or the guy that parks you car?

A stripper provides a service. If you value said service, tip away.

[Timemaster Tim]

A stripper provides a service. If you value said service, tip away.

Okay, I was being a bit flippant with my previous post. Tipping is really a cultural norm established for various services and varies by geogrpahy. I can't say that I've hung out in in enough strip clubs to know wat the tipping etiquette is. If strippers are normally tipped, I'd tip them. If strippers aren't, then I wouldn't.

And of course, there's always some Google Research (http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=446706).

[Tyjenks]

I was really just curious what the Qt3 community thought about the issue.

When I am at either, I tip waiters 20%, almost regardless, and strippers liberally (a few bucks each which goes up depending on my blood/alcohol level). They are all working at something I could not do and survive primarily off of those tips, I realize. The 3 or so times she has been with me, my wife is much more stingy with strippers than waiters . If they are not pretty enough or do not "work hard enough" (whatever that means), she sits back and waits for the next one.

Geez, this sounds like I am a regular and have a corner booth. :oops: I just went a few weeks ago and my wife has gone 3 times in the 10 years I have known her. I promise I am not a regular.

[Squirrel Killer]

Hey Tyjenks, could you have your wife talk to mine?

[Bitterman]

Women hate strippers and whores. Here's my utterly sexist and still probably correct reason as to why I believe this:

You see, women do understand that they have power. Since they want sex less than men (in general), they have control of the supply. Now, since men want sex, it is often traded for favors, which is the basis for marriage, dating, etc. Call me sexist, but it is still generally accepted that the man pays for dating entertainment. This is because he is trying to get in the panties. A simple economic transaction: dinner for a chance at the heidi hole.

Now, as with any monopoly, if the market gets flooded, the value of the monopolized product goes down. Therefore strippers and hookers are disliked, because they provide sex/sex-related services in exchange for money, which women do not control the supply of. The loose cartel of women do not like the monopoly being broken. Now, this relates to tippage of strippers because women, to be enlightened, generally pretend to not HATE strippers. However, subconciously, they still dislike the idea of money for sex, so they skimp on tips. I've asked several stripper friends who generally agree with my thesis.

As a matter of politeness and civility, yes, you tip a stripper. If you sit up at the stage and don't feed some bills, you're an asshole, plain and simple. If you get a lapdance, throw in a couple of bucks. It is especially bad if you think you're endorsing some kind of drug habit or whatever. Sure, strippers sometimes do drugs, and sometimes prostitute themselves, but most of them are no worse than anyone else, really. And why are you in there in the first place, if you think it's bad?

So, now you understand why women don't tip strippers. It's simple economics. Now I just need to explain to Destiny how that was Adam Smith's invisible hand grabbing her ass.

[BobJustBob]

I voted no, because that way I keep more of my money.

[CJ Martin]

So, now you understand why women don't tip strippers.

Mine does. Eat your heart out.

-CJ a.k.a. Smut

[Nick Walter]

Hey Tyjenks, could you have your wife talk to mine?

It's a lost cause, sorry. I've noticed that women come in two flavors. Those willing to go to strip clubs and those not willing. The programming is apparently done in youth and I've never seen an nstance of it changing later in life.

[John Many Jars]

I tip strippers who strip tippers.

[CJ Martin]

It's a lost cause, sorry. I've noticed that women come in two flavors. Those willing to go to strip clubs and those not willing. The programming is apparently done in youth and I've never seen an nstance of it changing later in life.

Not true.

My wife was very anti-porn/stripper when we got together. Over the years, I've managed to corrupt her. :twisted:

The bummer is we don't live near any decent clubs now. Vegas last summer was a blast though...can't wait for this year.

8)

-Smut

[Jason McCullough]

Dunno, I knew a couple that really were paying for college. Not really well-adjusted people, but then who was in Oklahoma?

[Dirt]

Really? Every stripper I've talked to has pretty much flat out said that they hate to study and that's why they're stripping.

[Drastic]

Stripper tipping is one of those enduring urban myths about rural areas. The simple fact is, only a small percentage of strippers sleep standing upright, and even then they don't sleep nearly so soundly that you could tip them over before they noticed.

[Wholly Schmidt]

Stripper tipping is one of those enduring urban myths about rural areas. The simple fact is, only a small percentage of strippers sleep standing upright, and even then they don't sleep nearly so soundly that you could tip them over before they noticed.
Winner.

[Tyjenks]

It is especially bad if you think you're endorsing some kind of drug habit or whatever. Sure, strippers sometimes do drugs, and sometimes prostitute themselves, but most of them are no worse than anyone else, really. And why are you in there in the first place, if you think it's bad?

Just to clarify, I do not think it is bad. I was presenting the 2 most commonly held beliefs, IMO, and then letting the forum members battle it out.

I guess my point was not so much the tipping as to whether supporting of the profession through tipping was harmful or hurtful. Obviously, in the short run, it helps the women survive. That's why my vote was yes and that is why I give to even those that are less skilled and not as hot, for lack of a better term. However, if there were no patrons, no strip clubs, would the dancers have different jobs that could build skills for their futures.

As to the wife's attendance, she has gone when it was late and we were a tad inebriated. It is definitely not as if we set aside a Tuesday night to go to Sammy's. Spur of the moment for her, calculated "mentioning in passing" by me. She will tip the one's she likes. She just makes less income than me so I believe the money seems a bit more "wasted" in her view when we have bills to pay and roofs to replace.

As steve mentioned, this may seem like a bit too much thought into this particular subject, but that's how my strange, little mind works. I think about these pressing matters which are important to the moral fabric of our society. :wink:

EDIT: Wow, we are really split on this issue. Maybe it should have been in the P&R forum. Not much explanation from the "Bad thing" side. They must go, but only in disguise and have to withdraw an extra 10 bucks from the ATM once a week for a couple months to build up a bankroll of Ones. It is OK. Tell your story here, but just say "A Friend" instead of yourself. No one will be the wiser.

[Bitterman]

The idea that you're supporting some sort of profession which doesn't build a future for an employee is, to put it bluntly, ridiculous.

Do you eat at BK? Do you go to a bar? Do you shop at walmart? Hell, do you watch women's sports? None of these are supporting a good future for their employees.

Anyway, I think it's obvious that not "supporting the profession" as a moral choice is patently stupid, and is either an excuse to be a cheapskate, or a cowardly way of stiffing someone working in a job you personally don't like.

[Tyjenks]

Bitterman, I do not personally know any, so any insight from you will be listened to sincerely. At least by me. No sarcasm here.

DO they save their money? The only thing I think about is that with BK/Wal-Mart workers, they are not going to move from having lots of funds and living comfortably to a lower paying profession. Not that that will necesarily happen with strippers, I honestly do not know what strippers "go on" to be. I know they are like you and me; have problems, hate life at times, do what they can to get by.


I am trying to be genuine here. I hope it comes across as such. Anything offensive in previous posts stems from ignorance on my part.

[Dean]

I actually have some professional experience in this, as I worked my way through grad school driving strippers to bachelor parties. I collected the tips because I had pockets and they generally didn't.

I remember they'd get $50 for b&p or topless shows, and $75 for nude shows. We could do 3 or 4 in a night, on good nights where we started early and ended late and the jobs lined up right, we could do 6 or 7.

They paid me out of their earnings, and some strippers went without drivers in order to make more money. Others thought we were worth the expense as we would generally be better at getting them there on time, they could deal with stripper things (getting dressed, perfume, whatever) while in the car to the next gig, we'd collect tips and take souvenir polaroids, we'd collect all the money for the company, and just having a "bouncer" there helped keep the guys in line.

One of the women who didn't use a driver was robbed and raped while I worked there. She disappeared Saturday night, and the following Tuesday she called in from the mental ward, because she had tried to commit suicide after the rape. She told me the whole story over the phone from the mental ward (because I happened to be on the phones that night). My boss's reaction-- "Did he get the COD's?"

This was the early 90's.

There were a couple of different types of strippers-- stupid ones who were in it for the quick buck. These would argue with bachelor party guys over tips, and I would generally have to calm everyone down and work something out. These were usually the college girls.

Career strippers, usually past their prime and couldn't work in the clubs anymore (or wouldn't). They had a kid or two to support and this was their bread and butter. They were in their 30's, all business, and good at their jobs. They generally didn't use drivers, and would sometimes use husbands/boyfriends, which was always a mistake. My boss eventually came up with the rule that if a significant other was driving someone, he had to stay in the car during the show. Too many fights.

Smart strippers, in their twenties, knew they had a limited time on this job and were thinking ahead. They maximized the number of shows they did, saved their money, invested in boob jobs for better tips, and retired by age 30. I got lucky and drove one of these for three years. She had trained with a Las Vegas burlesque queen, she took gigs from multiple services, she had six different ways to make money on a gig-- everything from selling said polaroids for $5 a pop, to handcuffing the bachelor to a chair with cheap handcuffs and having me auction off the key while she got dressed. We were a money making machine. She liked me and stuck with me because I drove fast and safe and got her where she was going, and because I never got into a fight. I would talk to whatever drunken frat boy until I was blue in the face and he was too exhausted to throw a punch, but I'd never swing on anyone. And in the end, everyone would be happy, because they'd get mostly what they wanted (to see a hot, naked girl, not to fuck one), and we'd get our money.

When she quit, she had two houses, one on each coast.

I don't go to strip clubs, because I've been "behind the curtain." It's about money, plain and simple. I know the girls are acting, because I've talked to them after the show and heard what they really think. It ain't about how good looking you are, it's about if you were putting tens or twenties in their panties.

So, tip them. They're probably getting paid poorly for a thankless and somewhat risky job. You're paying for an illusion, and the better you pay, the better the illusion will be.

[Tyjenks]

Thanks Dean.

A couple of times I went when I was not drunk enough or the dancer was not professional and bored to tears. It would be a paint by numbers "lift leg here, gyrate there, swirl around the pole, repeat" performance. I understand it is all about the money and those women no more care about me than I do about some guy going to a theme park in Australia next week. It is the illusion. I cannot carouse any longer, they act like I am not 35 and can still get chicks of their caliber, and then tips are produced.

I think, I think too much.


My sister got married this month and forbid a bachelor party. DAMMIT!

[Bullhajj]

Where is the damn bonerz option? Finally a poll where it truly makes sense to have a boner option, and the poll writer has left it out.

[stusser]

When you get taco bell for lunch, do you consider the fate of the countermonkeys? Why is their ultimate destiny any of your responsibility? Are you enabling their descent into fast food hell? Who cares, you just wants your gorditas. Or titties. Whichever.

[Dirt]

I was solicited at a stripclub once. I asked for a free lap dance so I could see what I was getting. To my surprise, I got one. I didn't go farther than the lap dance, but I didn't want to get a lap dance for free, so I tipped her a $20.

[Brian Koontz]

Has anyone tried tipping a stripper over face first to see if she bounces?

{Splat}

"Oops, sorry! I respect you more now that I know you're real though! Here's a $20!"

[Jamie Madigan]

I have very limited experience with strip clubs, my trips having been limited to a couple of bachelor parties. The times I went the girls were very aggressive, though, coming over and sitting on your lap, asking you to buy them a drink or a lap dance, etc.

Towards the end of one night we all wanted to buy the groom one last lapdance, but we had been bled dry of cash. So I whipped out my credit card and paid for it that way. A couple of weeks later when my wife was reconciling the credit card statements she asked what the hell this $50 charge for "S & B Service Parts, Incorporated" was. I got a good laugh out of that.

Oh, and tip them for cryin' out loud. They're adults and have made their choices. Don't offer to inject the heroin directly into their vein for them, but at least tip for the service rendered.

[Peter Frazier]

I had a friend who was married to a stripper. It didn't end very well. She managed the business but eventually supplemented it by dealing speed to the girls. Once he found out about the drugs, he left.
It was only with hindsight that he realised how depressed and unhappy he was that his wife was a stripper. I'll go with 'stripping is evil' and choose #1 because of the toll it takes.

Mind you, he put on a LAN every Saturday night when she worked. It was like watching two worlds collide when she would come back at 2 a.m. dressed in a Britney Spears schoolgirl outfit with some coworkers dressed similarly, and the computer nerds trying to get over the cognitive dissonance that the porn was walking around them!!!

[Bitterman]

Stripping is evil because of that? I have an alternate hypothesis for you.

Stripping leads to bad things because society's "upstanding" citizens have marginalized what was once a celebrated and respected skill/profession due to religious intolerance/class warfare, and now the profession is looked down upon, thus only those people with no social status to lose will strip. Therefore drugs and prostitution occur regularly in the clubs, just like crime and drug dealing occur more often in the slums.

Therefore, stipping is evil because of people like Peter Fraizer, and his friend who are unable to tolerate a woman displaying her sexualty, since a woman's place is in the home, and not out making money being a "slut".

[Jakub]

When the hell was stripping a respected profession?

[Hanzii]

So by tipping strippers, are you enabling their choice of profession that all too often leads to drug addiction, prostituion, and/or a lack of sufficient job skills with which to support themselves when they are forced into retirement at 35?


Aren't you allready supporting their choice by going in?
I assume they are paid by the owner and don't just rely on tips!?

It's a simple choice of not giving money to businesse that you feel degrades or exploit their labour and tip people that offer you good service.
Me? Stripping bore me. It's their choice to do that for money, I don't care either way.

[stusser]

I assume they are paid by the owner and don't just rely on tips!?
You assume incorrectly. Strippers actually pay to work. The combination of stage fees, tipouts (to dj, waitresses, bartender, housemom, bouncers, etc) and such can be $100-200 at low-end clubs and well over $600 at high-end "show" clubs like Scores in nyc. Per shift.

And on top of all that, the house usually takes between 50 and 75% of lapdance fees.

Strippers who don't have the looks or hustle to do well can actually lose money working from 8PM to 4AM.

[Brian Koontz]

Stripping is evil because of that? I have an alternate hypothesis for you.

Stripping leads to bad things because society's "upstanding" citizens have marginalized what was once a celebrated and respected skill/profession

I assume you're talking about Prostitution. I don't recall Stripping ever being a celebrated and respected skill. I don't recall Prostitution that way either, although its been tolerated more and more openly in other societies.

due to religious intolerance/class warfare, and now the profession is looked down upon, thus only those people with no social status to lose will strip. Therefore drugs and prostitution occur regularly in the clubs, just like crime and drug dealing occur more often in the slums.

Yes, social pressure is used to discourage actions and in this case, professions that are deemed negative.

Therefore, stipping is evil because of people like Peter Fraizer, and his friend who are unable to tolerate a woman displaying her sexualty, since a woman's place is in the home, and not out making money being a "slut".

A woman displays her sexuality at all times. Its a part of her. Strippers turn that sexuality into something base and easy, and faceless.

I enjoy flirting with a woman. Feeling her out, playing with her. Making her smile, engaging her.

I do not enjoy women who tear off their clothes and yell the implied "See what I've got!"

Clothes are one of the weapons a woman has. They make you wonder what's under them. Lose the clothing and there's less left to wonder about.

Strippers are a tragedy of powerlessness, and degrade their own sexuality in the process.

"See my tits! See my cunt! See my ass!"

There are many similar tits, cunts, and asses. There are far fewer intimate moments for humans.

A woman's sexuality is not found on her chest.

[Jamie Madigan]

I enjoy flirting with a woman. Feeling her out, playing with her. Making her smile, engaging her.
Man, would I love to see this. Seriously. Not saying you couldn't charm a woman, but based on what we know of you from this messageboard, I'm sure it would be QUITE a site. Can you tape yourself the next time?

[Bitterman]

My dancer aquaintences actually say the same thing, except about male strippers. The girls all say that when they see a guy shaking, or when he blows 5-600 on them alone in an hour, they have all the power. Now admittedly, it is certainly possible that they only have power over some guys who may or may not be desperate losers. But they still have a bit.

As far as historically respected, the greeks and romans had nude dancers, some senate members paid them ungodly sums and gave them plots of land.

Dancers were celebrities in the 1700s-1800s, especially in France ('Yes, we have no pyjamas' was a huge hit). Also there were erotic dancers in India, China, Japan (geishas often performed), etc.

Prostitutes were often looked at as regular working folk, no different than a soldier or a potter, or whatever. Many Roman coins featured pictures of various positions, so that the illiterate soldiers or ones who didn't speak the same language could purchase services. India, especially, had a tradition of escorts who were valued incredibly. Geishas, as well. Hell, Heidi Fleiss and the Mayflower Madame were not looked down upon by their clientele and friends. They are almost celebrated in some ways.

Historically, a lot of taboos on these sorts of behaviors did not occur until the monothestic religions gained sway, and traditions still persist today with your super high priced vegas escorts, etc etc.

[stusser]

"See my tits! See my cunt! See my ass!"

[Jakub]

"See my tits! See my cunt! See my ass!"
One of these rare moments I wish we had signatures.

[Peter Frazier]

If you think that shaking your tits and rubbing up against a stranger for money doesn't involve a moral compromise, then you're kidding yourself.

As for being historically respected, not really. Famous maybe, but not respected. I think you are confusing the two. If you think that Heidi Fleiss is worth celebrating then you ought to maybe check your moral compass.

Stripping is getting into the grubby part of the grey scale of 'what is an appropriate way to earn your money' in terms of dance and performing art. The scene has plenty of sleazebags and scum involved with it.

Jesus, reread your tirade against me. Would you be happy if your wife 'celebrated her sexuality' with other men by rubbing their faces in her tits? Are you going to encourage your daughter into a 'respected' profession that involves her bending over so that strangers can look into her vagina? You can wrap it all up with puerile justifications about women really being in control, but it just comes down to stripping being the second last resort for quite a few desperate women. And the slope is pretty slippery to the last resort.

[Brian Koontz]

Dancers were celebrities in the 1700s-1800s, especially in France ('Yes, we have no pyjamas' was a huge hit). Also there were erotic dancers in India, China, Japan (geishas often performed), etc.

To the extent that Strippers are Dancers, I agree. If anything, Strippers are Dancers with much of the eroticism removed. A bellydance done well is much more erotic than humping a pole to the tune of generic rock music.

Historically, a lot of taboos on these sorts of behaviors did not occur until the monothestic religions gained sway, and traditions still persist today with your super high priced vegas escorts, etc etc.

That's fine, but at some point and the sooner the better you have to say "fuck monotheism" and develop your understanding of this stuff not in opposition to it, but outside of it.

After all, right now we are experiencing the rebellion against monotheism which celebrates strippers (among other things).

I'd say its better to experience what WE want out of the world by creating it rather than reacting to a disappointment with monotheism.

Don't be disappointed. Just say goodbye.

[Anders Hallin]

Well, if you're already comfortable funding a strip joint, I don't see it being comparatively morally reprehensible to give money directly to the people who are actually being exploited (as workers, as in capitalist terms) by it.

[shift6]

The logical extension to this poll (har har) is: would you tip a hooker?

[DaveC]

Been to strippers a few times. It was a naughty thrill at first. The last time I went we just drank beer and talked amongst ourselves and looked up every once in a while to see if it was a different girl on stage. Overall pretty boring.

[RedTide]

The logical extension to this poll (har har) is: would you tip a hooker?

I sense a bad joke coming:

What did the leper do when he was done with the hooker? He left a tip.

[Bitterman]

If you think that shaking your tits and rubbing up against a stranger for money doesn't involve a moral compromise, then you're kidding yourself.


Exactly how does it involve a moral compromise, other than to you? There's certainly no moral objectivity here. You're projecting your morals onto others, like a pro-lifer saying that if you aren't pro-life you must be some kind of sick bastard.

Basically, what you seem to be saying here is that sex is shameful and taboo and people who have different ideas about it than you are sick.


Stripping is getting into the grubby part of the grey scale of 'what is an appropriate way to earn your money' in terms of dance and performing art. The scene has plenty of sleazebags and scum involved with it.


So erotic dancing, weather nude or not, is sleazy? Again, you're putting your own morality onto everyone else. Come up with some logical, rational reasons why it's immoral, and we'll debate that. As for having plenty of sleazebags, so does pro football, the IT industry, Wall Street, the practice of law, government, this board, and just about anything else you can think of... even the Catholic church. What's your point? Since you've marginalized the profession, its no surprise than it has a lot of marginal people.


Jesus, reread your tirade against me. Would you be happy if your wife 'celebrated her sexuality' with other men by rubbing their faces in her tits? Are you going to encourage your daughter into a 'respected' profession that involves her bending over so that strangers can look into her vagina? You can wrap it all up with puerile justifications about women really being in control, but it just comes down to stripping being the second last resort for quite a few desperate women. And the slope is pretty slippery to the last resort.


Hahaha. This shows exactly what you're thinking. See, in your world, this is one step above prostitution. I know plenty of strippers with day jobs. There are feature dancers who travel the nation and get huge money. There are vegas showgirls who are often topless. They aren't treated as one step up from a street corner hooker. Again, you're making generalizations based on your worst case exotic dancer, and pushing that thinking on everyone else. As for wanting my wife to "celebrate her sexuality" (which I never said), there are a decent amount of people who enjoy multiple partner sex. Their views disagree with your puritanical ones, I'm sure, but let's hear some logic as to why that's so terrible?

Finally, your rebuttals to historical acceptance are poor. Maybe you should do some research, and perhaps try and contradict the specific (and true) example I've given. Try Geishas first, since that one will be the easiest to find and is exactly what I am talking about.

[Toddy]

You want rebuttals to the historical evidence, I can provide loads from the ancient world. In Rome, from the Republic right into the Byzantine period, women involved in suspect professions -- generally anything related to performing arts, as this was deemed to always being a cover for prostitution -- were about the most disrespected people in society. There were famous courtesans -- Suetonius (the "Twelve Caesars" guy) even wrote a series of biographies in the second century called "Lives of Famous Whores" -- but saying that they were "respected" is ridiculous.

You want to get a good idea how dancers, actresses, etc. were regarded in the ancient and late antique world, take a look at Procopius' Anekdota and see what he has to say about the emperor Justinian's wife, Theodora, who grew up in a family of circus performers. Procopius was a bit of a nut, with a crazy secret (the Anekdota wasn't published in the writer's lifetime) hatred of Justinian and Theodora, but this was pretty much the way that average people looked at courtesans.

Also, there were severe restrictions governing how courtesans, actresses, etc. (remember, in ancient Rome, one was regarded as the same as the other) lived. Anyone involved in these trades couldn't marry into the senatorial class, for instance.

[DaveC]

I used to drive cab and worked downtown near one of the more popular titty bars. The vast majority of strippers I met were either fucked up on drugs pretty badly or were just total party girls. Out of the dozens that got into my cab I think there were 2 that had their heads on straight. One was mostly done paying off a house and the other was also a student at the U of A (drove her there a couple times). Overall, it's an industry that chews up young women and spits them out as burnt out, low self-esteem shells. Not a career I'd recommend to anyone.

[Peter Frazier]

Bitterman, a Venn diagram that could be made of where we obviously stand and agree would look like two circles sitting side by side.

1.You seem to be too busy saying that I'm projecting my morals upon you as though sex and relationships are totally free of morality. They're not. I think I have the weight of numbers on my side, and it's not solely the lunatic religious fringe that thinks sex is not a commercial trade good.
Saying that I claimed 'sex is shameful and taboo' is a bit of an overreaction. I'll happily state that 'having sex with strangers for money is a shameful'. 'Showing your sexual organs to strangers for money' isn't really anything to be proud of either. Notice that the main thing in both parts of those statements is something to do with strangers paying money to engage in what would otherwise be an intimate act with a chosen partner.

2. I guess you don't understand the term 'grey scale', instead you say that I condemn everything to do with erotic dance as sleazy. Did you even read the part that you quoted?
The fun part is where you ask for logical, rational reasons to talk about morality. We're not Vulcans fer chrissake. Seriously though, would you want your daughter to be a stripper?

3. Hahaha, the joke's on you, it is one step above prostitution. I can't think of another job which could so easily be adapted to a blow job for $50 extra. (except for maybe http://www.computerandvideogames.com/news/news_story.php(que)id=114069 ) Stop referring to the 0.05% of strippers and showgirls who may be able to show a bit of dignity. They're the tip of the pyramid. What are the bulk doing?
Also- there might be cultural differences acting between us here. My country doesn't have strip clubs as everyday places for people to go to. It's usually a sign of financial desperation when a pub starts bringing in strippers. Most strippers tend to do private parties, buck's nights etc.

4. Lastly, a decent amount of people enjoy multiple partner sex? Suuuure. Now that's a poll I'd like to see on this forum.

Also- thanks Brett for the historical perspective and Dave for the anecdote. If I didn't see what happened to my friend's wife, I would also be shrugging my shoulders and thinking that stripping is fine as long as none of my family did it.

[Sparky]

Clothes are one of the weapons a woman has.
Yeah, I killed a guy with a really nice charcoal gray cashmere cardigan once.

I still miss that sweater. It went with everything.

[stusser]

IMO it's one step below prostitution. At least with a prostitute you get something for your money. Strippers are the most mercenary beings alive-- they make Gordon Gecko look like a philanthropist.

[shift6]

Clothes are one of the weapons a woman has.
Yeah, I killed a guy with a really nice charcoal gray cashmere cardigan once.

I still miss that sweater. It went with everything.
Those boots of yours could do some mighty stompin' as well, I'd wager.

[steve]

Those boots of yours could do some mighty stompin' as well, I'd wager.
And that's just what they'll do.

[Bill Dungsroman]

I enjoy flirting with a woman. Feeling her out, playing with her. Making her smile, engaging her.

Oh Brian, you dropped a few words, there. Here, I got them for you. Now, this "would" goes second in your first sentence, and this "If only..." goes at the end. I mean, ha ha, the way it's written now, it looks like you're actually capable of those things.

I hope you speak to strippers the same way you post. They probably all think you're Ukranian and speaking a different language.

That was all the troll part of my post, incidentally. Here's the straightforward, no-nonsense part:

You're a preposterously bad liar.

[John Merva]

Try Geishas first, since that one will be the easiest to find and is exactly what I am talking about.

Bearing in mind that geisha danced with their clothes on and were highly skilled entertainers rather than strippers or prostitutes. Sexual acts may well have taken place but not for any just punter, there are a lot of misconceptions about exactly what proper geisha did.

[shift6]

I'll say. I can't recommend this book too lightly: Memoirs of a Geisha (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0679781587) Summary: they did whatever the patron paid for.

[Robert Sharp]

Reportedly, in certain ancient societies (Babylon, e.g.) there were temple prostitutes who engaged in sex for godesses (Mithra, I think). At times, women were expected to do this before getting married, as a tribute to the goddess, who would then honor the woman with fertility.

That's not necessarily respect for the profession, but it would hardly be disdain either. And there are lots of societies we don't even know about. So I'm not sure we can say that prostitutes are always the lowlifes of society.

[Jose Liz]

Scores in NYC is the shit?

[Anders Hallin]

For most of human history, women have had little better than equal stature as property.
So, generally, how respected could women who prostituted themselves really be? Of course, respect is a difficult word. Because after all, women have been praised, sung about, worshipped and so on, while at the same time, realpolitik-wise, come right under a prize hog in wielding power.

As for stripping and sex, there's nothing inherently bad about it. However, the industry as it has developed, is quite loathsome.

[Lunch of Kong]

About 6 years ago, a former stripper picked me up in a bar and I ended up dating her for a couple weeks.

She told me that many of the girls floated around from club to club, that a third were lesbians, and that half were on coke or crack or meth. She also told me about some of the abuse she's suffered from men, and what it was like in a women's prison, and I felt alot of sympathy for her.

It ended the day after I told her that no, I would not be letting her and her son live with me in my apartment while she got a divorce from her jealous, possessive, Latino, cocaine-cartel syndicate husband who had just gotten out on parole.

The sex was great, though.

p.s. - At the time, I thought there was a chance this guy would figure out that his wife wasn't really spending nights over at her mom's trailer park, so I left names and phone numbers of the involved parties with one of the guys at work--for him to give to police--just in case I wound up dead. Fun stuff.

[Wholly Schmidt]

At the time, I thought there was a chance this guy would figure out that his wife wasn't really spending nights over at her mom's trailer park, so I left names and phone numbers of the involved parties with one of the guys at work--for him to give to police--just in case I wound up dead. Fun stuff.
Wow, the sex must have been phenomenal if you were realistically worried enough to be taking those kinds of precautions and continued in the relationship anyway.

[Lunch of Kong]

Heh. In retrospect, I was clearly insane. But I had different priorities back then. She'd broken a 7-year dry spell for me, so *any* nocturnal female companionship was phenomenal and worth dying for, let alone the attentions of a gorgeous, experienced, red-head with long curls who really wanted me. Plus, I'd just seen Lock, Stock, and Two Smoking Barrels and was wary of people I thought might have access to a pig farm.

[Wholly Schmidt]

Heh. In retrospect, I was clearly insane. But I had different priorities back then. She'd broken a 7-year dry spell for me, so *any* nocturnal female companionship was phenomenal and worth dying for, let alone the attentions of a gorgeous, experienced, red-head with long curls who really wanted me. Plus, I'd just seen Lock, Stock, and Two Smoking Barrels and was wary of people I thought might have access to a pig farm.
Was the pig farm in Lock Stock too? I haven't seen that in forever, but I only remember it from Snatch.

[RedTide]

Same.

[Brian Koontz]

That was all the troll part of my post, incidentally. Here's the straightforward, no-nonsense part:

You're a preposterously bad liar.

I see DrCrypt II is now out in theaters. The humans will adore.

[Bill Dungsroman]

That was all the troll part of my post, incidentally. Here's the straightforward, no-nonsense part:

You're a preposterously bad liar.

I see DrCrypt II is now out in theaters. The humans will adore.

Why do you keep thinking that's some deft put-down, lumping me in with Crypt? Furthermore, Peanut, don't expect to make spit-take-inducing statements vis a vis your elegant Lotharioesque touch with the wimminfolk without me and half the internet rolling up a ball of derivative text in twosixteen's gif and trundling it over your lying self.

You are a 23-year-old virgin. 'Nuff said. I know part of the Magnificence That Is You is knowing, Truly Knowing, films and books and writers and people and cheese and the guy that operates the Rouge River Drawbridge at Del Ray and Jefferson without ever leaving your house or even opening your eyes, but every single other sentient being knows that's bullshit.

Lastly, I am not trolling you. You, sir, are trolling me.

[Wholly Schmidt]

Koontz is 23? I always had it in my head that he was older.

[Brian Koontz]

That was all the troll part of my post, incidentally. Here's the straightforward, no-nonsense part:

You're a preposterously bad liar.

I see DrCrypt II is now out in theaters. The humans will adore.

Why do you keep thinking that's some deft put-down, lumping me in with Crypt?

Brian: "1+1=2"

Bill: Whoa... BURNED!

I see you're also using DrCrypt's method of treating everything as a personal attack. Well done. Just like DrCrypt, you are obviously never wrong.

Since DrCrypt exists on Qt3 with respect to me for his own purposes and otherwise for entertainment, the sequel starring you could only have entertainment value. Dance for them and they will applaud.

[Timemaster Tim]

This just in from the Lap Dance News Service (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=816&ncid=816&e=1&u=/ap/20050123/ap_on_re_us/brf_lap_dance_law).

A Las Vegas law prohibiting strippers from fondling customers during lap dances is unconstitutionally vague, a judge ruled. District Court Judge Sally Loehrer affirmed a lower court ruling that as many as five misdemeanor criminal cases filed against Las Vegas strippers should be dismissed.

[Bill Dungsroman]

That was all the troll part of my post, incidentally. Here's the straightforward, no-nonsense part:

You're a preposterously bad liar.

I see DrCrypt II is now out in theaters. The humans will adore.

Why do you keep thinking that's some deft put-down, lumping me in with Crypt?

Brian: "1+1=2"

Bill: Whoa... BURNED!

I see you're also using DrCrypt's method of treating everything as a personal attack. Well done. Just like DrCrypt, you are obviously never wrong.

Since DrCrypt exists on Qt3 with respect to me for his own purposes and otherwise for entertainment, the sequel starring you could only have entertainment value. Dance for them and they will applaud.

That's great! Except, I exist on Qt3 with respect to you (MY EYES THE POMPOSITY) to occasionally make fun of you when you fly so far out of bounds, I'm left with little else. You're just mad because I'm good at it.

Alright Bee Kay, how about you school me on the ways and methods you so masterfully flirt with females (that you've never once ended up having sex with)? Really, now. We're not discussing concepts or ideas or irrational arguments. I would ask you, Brian Koontz, to give me one of your awesome transcripts (heretofore ones you just made up) of the last (or best) time you hit on a woman, and toyed with her ever so sublimely. Believe me, Bosco, I'm all eyes.

[Brian Koontz]

That's great! Except, I exist on Qt3 with respect to you (MY EYES THE POMPOSITY)

Why not, right? Come on, throw more garbage interpretations up! Why stop there?

Brian LOVES Hitler!

Brian eats babies... when he's not even hungry!

Oh, and he lies... he lies all the time!

to occasionally make fun of you when you fly so far out of bounds, I'm left with little else. You're just mad because I'm good at it.

Tucker Carlson to John Stewart: You're just mad because we're good at it!

Tucker Carlson: We ask pointed questions. You've got to challenge them.

Qt3 must become a place of debate, not of theater.

[Bill Dungsroman]

That's great! Except, I exist on Qt3 with respect to you (MY EYES THE POMPOSITY)

Why not, right? Come on, throw more garbage interpretations up! Why stop there?

Brian LOVES Hitler!

Brian eats babies... when he's not even hungry!

Oh, and he lies... he lies all the time!

to occasionally make fun of you when you fly so far out of bounds, I'm left with little else. You're just mad because I'm good at it.

Tucker Carlson to John Stewart: You're just mad because we're good at it!

Tucker Carlson: We ask pointed questions. You've got to challenge them.

Qt3 must become a place of debate, not of theater.
So, when are you going to start moving us in that direction?

Come on, Brian. Throw down that sweet, sweet moxie of yours and tell me how you go about wowing the gals with your silver tongue. Let's debate. Let's trade secrets. I'm still waiting.

[madkevin]

Qt3 must become a place of debate, not of theater.

Is there any reason why you believe yourself to be the arbiter of QT3, Brian? Besides the fact that you're crazy, I mean?

[Jason Cross]

I've been in a serious relationship with a stripper for a year now (well, it'll be a year in mid-Feb). So if you have any direct, serious questions, let me know and I'll do my best to give you the straight line.

As far as tipping for lap/table/private dances goes: there's no simple "yes you should / no you shouldn't." The girls obviously like it if you do. Duh. If they perform exceptionally well, you should tip them, just as with any service profession. If not, don't worry too much. Dance prices are such that they should be making money (house fees and stuff included). You're not condeming them to a life of abject poverty if you don't tip, as you are with waitresses.

I will say this, though: if a girl is on stage dancing, and you think she's especially hot or is doing cool pole tricks or whatever, ALWAYS go put a couple bucks up there. Even just one or two singles. Peforming on stage is a kind of a nerve-racking experience for a lot of the girls, and their entire night can be made or broken by whether or not they are tipped on stage. A lot of girls get off stage and if they didn't get some tips up there, they feel totally worthless.

[Dirt]

I had a co-worker who went to a strip joint and ended up in a conversation with a stripper for 3 hours. He didn't get a lap dance, yet she still charged him for 3 hours of her time. He actually paid it. Idiot.

[shift6]

I've been in a serious relationship with a stripper for a year now (well, it'll be a year in mid-Feb). So if you have any direct, serious questions, let me know and I'll do my best to give you the straight line.
Actually, I do. How can I put it? Uhm, how do you develop the trust to have a serious relationship with a stripper while she may or may not be banging other dudes for money? Yes I know stripper != hooker but I've known enough of 'em myself.

[Lunch of Kong]

Not speaking for Jason, but I'd imagine their relationship works because they are both good at compartmentalizing work as work.

I recall a conversation I had with Stacy's dad, who asked me "So, Roger, you think you're the man to tame her?" I said, "Why would I want to do that? I'm interested in her because of the woman she is now. Why would I want to change the thing that attracted me to her in the first place?"

[Peter Frazier]

I'll ask one- are stripping and drugs closely tied? I'm not equating that stripping= moral worthlessness that must be covered up by oblivion, more that speed and coke would be an obvious thing to move onto to give you energy and confidence for the performance. Is there much of a morally ambiguous attitude towards that stuff?

[Lunch of Kong]

A lot of girls get off stage and if they didn't get some tips up there, they feel totally worthless.

The last time I was at a club, one of the girls we had been talking to before was crying, and I asked her what was wrong, and she said it was because no one tipped her while she was dancing on stage. I gave her a big hug.

[Bullhajj]

A lot of girls get off stage and if they didn't get some tips up there, they feel totally worthless.

The last time I was at a club, one of the girls we had been talking to before was crying, and I asked her what was wrong, and she said it was because no one tipped her while she was dancing on stage. I gave her a big hug.

I did that exact same thing--I swear--but the damn bouncer threw me out! I tried to tell him she needed a hug, but he wouldn't listen.

[Jason Cross]

Actually, I do. How can I put it? Uhm, how do you develop the trust to have a serious relationship with a stripper while she may or may not be banging other dudes for money? Yes I know stripper != hooker but I've known enough of 'em myself.

Because I know the club she works at, and I know what goes on there and what DOESN'T go on there. Stripper definitely != hooker. The last girl caught soliciting at her club was fired.

There are clubs in this city where you can get that kind of thing if you want. They're skanky and sleazy and I wouldn't step foot in 'em.

We get along because she's a geek like me. She plays Magic: The Gathering, has a level 36 warlock in WoW, plays Xbox with me, writes CGI and PERL, blah blah blah.

I'll ask one- are stripping and drugs closely tied? I'm not equating that stripping= moral worthlessness that must be covered up by oblivion, more that speed and coke would be an obvious thing to move onto to give you energy and confidence for the performance. Is there much of a morally ambiguous attitude towards that stuff?

I'd be lying if I said there wasn't a a lot more drug use (abuse?) among strippers than in the general population. It definitely happens a lot. In the lower-end clubs, it happens a LOT a lot. Many girls end up working there (and doing more than is strictly legal) to support their drug habits. In the classier clubs, it's more just a recreational thing among some of the girls.

The amount and severity of drug use varies a lot from club to club, from girl to girl. Coke, pot, and happy pills like valium and the like are the most common.

At the same time, I know quite a lot of girls that don't do anything but drink. My girlfriend doesn't touch drugs at all (except to drink a little too much sometimes, but don't we all?). She's opposed to basically all of them except pot, and she's allergic to that.

I honestly know VERY few girls who got into drugs as a result of stripping. It's a typical excuse, but if you dig deeper you find out they used to use drugs before, and just have money to blow on it after stripping.

[quatoria]

Allergic to pot? Damn, I think that's the first time I've ever heard of that.

[Dean]

Stripping definitely != hooking. Part of my job as bouncer/driver was to make sure that wasn't happening, and if it did, I'd tell the boss and that stripper was gone. When parties ordered two strippers, he'd usually put a stripper who didn't use a driver first, so that the driver and second stripper would arrive within a half hour of the first stripper. That was how he checked up on the girls who didn't use drivers.

As for drug use-- I'll second that the ones who used drugs were already drug users who now had money. Actually it's funny, because the singing telegram guys were the biggest stoners at the service, by far.

I had to deliver a singing telegram to a recording studio congratulating a band on getting their record contract. I showed up at the appointed time with my dozen balloons and wearing a chicken suit. The engineers were there but no band, and the engineers were just starting to set up. The band wasn't going to be there for another hour or so. It was a Tuesday night, and I didn't have anymore gigs to do, so I took off my chicken head and decided to hang out and wait for the band.

That was cool with them, and it was interesting just to watch them get everything set up. At one point the guy in the studio takes out a big bag of weed and starts cleaning it and rolling a batch of joints (presumably to get everyone through the recording session). The guy in the booth clicks on the intercom and says, "Dave, what are you doing?! You're not alone you know?!"

Dave looks at the booth, looks at me, looks at the dope, and says, "Dude, he's got to be cool, he wears a chicken suit for a living."

And it was cool. That was long ago, though.

(But singing a lame-ass telegram for a band that's all on edge about their first studio album does NOT go over well. When they finally arrived, they just wanted me to get the fuck out of there.)

[madkevin]

Allergic to pot? Damn, I think that's the first time I've ever heard of that.

In university I knew a girl who was allerigc to pot AND caffiene, which always made me wonder how she a) got up and b) went to sleep. Luckily she made up for it by increasing her alcohol intake exponentially, which seemed the most sensible reaction at the time.

[quatoria]

Allergic to pot? Damn, I think that's the first time I've ever heard of that.

In university I knew a girl who was allerigc to pot AND caffiene, which always made me wonder how she a) got up and b) went to sleep. Luckily she made up for it by increasing her alcohol intake exponentially, which seemed the most sensible reaction at the time.

Thank goodness that sensibility and reason prevailed. Jesus Christ, imagine what that poor girl might have had to suffer through if she was forced to confront the horrors of college totally straight. Aieee, the mind recoils in sheer horror.

[shift6]

Actually, I do. How can I put it? Uhm, how do you develop the trust to have a serious relationship with a stripper while she may or may not be banging other dudes for money? Yes I know stripper != hooker but I've known enough of 'em myself.
Because I know the club she works at, and I know what goes on there and what DOESN'T go on there. Stripper definitely != hooker. The last girl caught soliciting at her club was fired.
That's cool man. Without that bit of baggage I don't personally see any difference between a stripper and a model, so good for ya.

Allergic to pot? Damn, I think that's the first time I've ever heard of that.
A pothead friend of mine in high school died from an allergic reaction when he blazed up too much at once in a smallish room (swelled his esophagus shut => no air => dead).