God in Heaven do I hate Steam

[Rywill]

You know, I've pretty much avoided the anti-Steam bandwagon. I figured, Big deal, so you need to validate your game over the Net. Hey, automatic patches will be nice. Maybe somehow it will eventually make games cheaper (or not go up in price along with the rest of the world).

Well, I hate it. I took HL2 to my brother's house so I could show it to him. When I come back, the game goes through this long re-unlocking process before it will let me play on my home machine again. It keeps unlocking stuff that I never plan to use, like the Counterstrike files. I stopped playing HL2 for a while because I got totally hooked on World of Warcraft. Today I tried to go back, and the game insists on downloading and unlocking some HL2 Deathmatch game that I have no interest in. The stupid Steam thing keeps popping up unexpectedly in my system tray and/or requesting internet access when I turn my connection off to change the firewall settings.

None of it is crippling, but it's all so fucking annoying, and I don't see one positive aspect for me, the gamer. I want a goddamn FPS that I can just pop in my drive and play for 15 minutes. If I want to go through 30 minutes of rigamarole before I can do anything fun, I'll reload EverQuest. Christ almighty. I mean, I think HL2 is a pretty cool FPS, but it's getting to the point where I'm going to permanently retire it just because it's such a hassle to deal with.

Maybe there's some way to switch all this stuff off, but if there is, it isn't very obvious. For example, when it starts downloading the stupid DM component, I can hit "Cancel," but that drops me to desktop and any time I try to start HL2, it goes right back to downloading HL2 DM. Ugh. Screw you, Valve.

[GMicek]

I took HL2 to my brother's house so I could show it to him.

That's kinda cool.

[Union Carbide]

I've never had Steam force a download on me that wasn't a patch.

However, I did start downloading something that I decided I didn't want after it had been going for a bit, and I found that right clicking on the game in question and selecting "delete local files" stopped it from downloading..

You should do the same for CS:S and any other steam games that you don't want to receive updates for.

As for the re-verification of your HL2 files, that happened to me too a while back. I think it was after I went to a LAN party, but I'm not 100% sure. Maybe it's triggered by multiple changes of IP over a short time.

[jafd]

Oh for Christ's sake, just download the goddamned warez release and send fifty dollars in a plain white envelope to Valve's PO box. Save yourself the headache.

Unless, of course, you're planning on playing Counterstrike, in which case, headaches and suffering are mandatory.

[Rollory]

and send fifty dollars in a plain white envelope to Valve's PO box.

Why this part?

(Yeah, yeah, stealing, blah blah blah, fairness, blah blah blah, it's the right thing to do, blah blah blah, but does Valve really deserve your money once they've caused you enough frustration to get the warez?)

[jafd]

does Valve really deserve your money once they've caused you enough frustration to get the warez?
I'm relatively new to this board. I can't tell. Is this what you guys call a "troll"?

[DaveC]

I'm still loving it. I paid less then retail for more and never have to worry about being up-to-date. I started pre-loading a long time ago and except for the first day where I couldn't log on for a few hours it's been great for me. Of course, YMMV.

[andrew_fm]

I'm relatively new to this board. I can't tell. Is this what you guys call a "troll"?
Only on the QT3 forums does a guy who registered 18 months ago call himself "relatively new."

[Andrew Mayer]

That's enough out of you, newb!

:wink:

[Stroker Ace]

I'm relatively new to this board. I can't tell. Is this what you guys call a "troll"?
Only on the QT3 forums does a guy who registered 18 months ago call himself "relatively new."heh :D

[ChrisGrenard]

Stepping in to defend Steam a bit. I love the fact that I never have to worry about copy protection (which made it so I could not play Splinter Cell 2) and that I don't need a disk in the drive or anything. As long as you configure Steam to not autostart and not auto-preload stuff, it is wonderful. Plus, it was quite exciting being able to stay up and wait for it to unlock, kinda like being first in line to see a new movie.

[Destarius]

Stepping in to defend Steam a bit. I love the fact that I never have to worry about copy protection (which made it so I could not play Splinter Cell 2) and that I don't need a disk in the drive or anything. As long as you configure Steam to not autostart and not auto-preload stuff, it is wonderful. Plus, it was quite exciting being able to stay up and wait for it to unlock, kinda like being first in line to see a new movie.

Pretty much my experience. But we can't discount that people with less-than-optimal profiles (i.e. the optimal being just one installation of Steam on one system which is always online and on broadband) could be having horrendous issues.

But my position has always been that there always needs to be the painful pioneer in vast online distribution (and in this case, IP protection). The hope is that Steam will get better, not worse. As it is, it's brought about greater awareness of what terms exists in licence agreements even for the usual non-Steam game. As some has pointed out, Steam hasn't asked for much out of the usual - it's upsetting people because Steam can now effectively enforce it.

But there are some good questions which I haven't seen addressed: what happens if Valve shuts down the authentication servers. Does that mean HL2 games can't be played anymore? Has anyone answered this?

[Mattc0m]

I'm quite aware of Steam's problems, however I've had a perfect experience with it. I have it so it doesn't auto-start with my computer, and only turn it on once a week to see if DOD has come yet, and maybe play a bit of CS: S. While I was playing HL2, the pre-load, the authentication, and everything worked fine. In fact, without it I would have never purchased HL2 in the first place - however, thats mainly do to the fact I now live in rural WV.

[russellmz00]

steam has a lot of good things and a lot of ream the user things too.

my favorite was how it downloaded hundreds of megs of cz stuff over my modem even though i bought a cd that has +90% of the content already on it and already had it installed. only took me a week to get all the updates (they probably totaled less than 30mb).

the lack of instructions on how to use steam and its features was also a joy.

what the hell are gcf's!?
why the hell can't i play even though i have the cd right now!?
is it supposed to be d/ling 300mbs of stuff that i mostly already have on cd?!

on the other hand, i entered my blue shift serial number and got the original half life to play even though i had only played it back in college when a friend lent me a copy and a cd crack. and i can head straight into a cz/cs server without going through a pain in the ass process.

[Mark Asher]

As some has pointed out, Steam hasn't asked for much out of the usual - it's upsetting people because Steam can now effectively enforce it.

What bothers me is the idea that I can't dispose of my game the way I want -- I can't resell it, I can't lend it to a friend without giving him my account info, etc. I don't think this is a step forward at all. Imagine if we couldn't lend movies, books, and music? Would consumers be happier? I have resold games, mostly videogames, and it really is a boon to be able to do so. It allows us to buy more videogames that we would otherwise be able to.

Is there anyone on the consumer side who is happy with the idea of not being able to resell a game?

I'll be really surprised if Steam-like distribution is adopted by the industry anytime soon. I don't think it will be superior to the retail channel for a long time and I think that for lesser titles, players will balk at the idea of paying $50 for a download. How would you feel about a new Eidos game that's dependant on an Eidos-authentication server? Would that server be around two years from now?

[steve]

What bothers me is the idea that I can't dispose of my game the way I want
Yet you play MMOs, which don't let you dispose of them the way you want.

Is there anyone on the consumer side who is happy with the idea of not being able to resell a game?
If it doesn't bother MMO players, it's possible it won't be that big of an issue with others.

Somehow, gamers got over the idea of paying monthly fees, of not being able to re-sell their game, of having logins, of having eternal downloads, of having server crashes, etc. It's accepted.

How would you feel about a new Eidos game that's dependant on an Eidos-authentication server? Would that server be around two years from now?
If I bought Motor City Online, I can't play any more. If I have to reinstall my copy of Out of the Park Baseball 6 or Front Office Football 2004 a year from now and the elicense validation server is no longer there, I'm screwed. If Microsoft updates Windows, my game might not work.

Let's consider some regular consumer goods. If Tivo goes out of business, I can't get program guides any more. If my cable company explodes, I'm stuck with no HBO. I still have a recorder and a TV, though, much like Half-Life 2 still has an offline mode.

In your Eidos example, your best hope is that the company removes authetication before shutting down, or the person that purchases their assets chooses to keep the servers running, or there's an offline mode. If not, you'll have to live with the fact that all of your Eidos games may be gone forever.

In these cases, you're no longer just buying a product, you're also getting a service. It's the same with Steam and Half-Life 2, it's the same with an MMO, it's the same with Tivo. Hopefully, that service offers some additional value. Right now, Valve offers Counter-strike and some other games like Codename Gordon. Then it offered Deathmatch as a download.

You could have had those without Steam, sure, just as you could have an MMO without a monthly fee. But that's how they've chosen to deliver everything. And if Valve delivers a lot of updates and mods and such for the next 2-3 years, the Steam "service" seems like a decent deal for consumers, even if people can't easily re-sell the game.

[DaveC]

What bothers me is the idea that I can't dispose of my game the way I want
Yet you play MMOs, which don't let you dispose of them the way you want.



Found that out the hard way after I shelled out $80 for AO when it first came out. Couldn't even give it to a friend unless I wanted him to have all my account info and credit card. It may have changted by now, but the CC number had to be in the same name as the account.

[Rywill]

Yet you play MMOs,
I also play MMOs, but I don't mind the extra hassles there, because MMOs bring a lot to the table that I can't get in a non-MMO game. On top of that, the hassles I go through for an MMO are understandable, at least to me, because I can't think of any better way to do it. I don't feel like Blizzard or Verant is trying to screw me (well, okay, maybe Verant, but that's another thread...). I feel like they're giving me a new type of game in what is probably the most efficient way reasonably possible.

I don't feel that way at all about Valve/Steam/HL2. I know full well that there's a working, existing model out there that is much, much better from my perspective. This is just Valve fucking around with me because (I can only assume) it's somehow beneficial to them. And then there's the fact that Valve/Steam keeps piling on crap that I don't want or need--stuff like Counter-Strike and HL2 Deathmatch--without giving me any way out of it. Fuck that, and fuck them. Having tried it out, no more Steam games for me. Maybe other people don't mind or feel the games are worth it, but Valve has lost me as a customer.

[chet]

While I have never heard it updating games you had not previously selected to play. If it did start doing that, you could just right click on the game in question, choose properties and select for it not to update that game in the future (you can also delete any content it downloaded on the same screen).


Chet

[CindySue22]

A simmer here, but after hearing so much about HL2, and with the demo being released, I decided to try it. Well, half decided, I guess-I've downloaded the demo, but it still sits, unpacked, on my HDD because of all these horror stories I keep hearing about Steam.

I am just paranoid about people putting things on my computer without me OK'ing it.

I'd really like to try it, just to see the supposedly cool features, but am really leery, so one simple question.

Are there any, repeat any, hassles with uninstalling either Steam, or HL2?

[Destarius]

As some has pointed out, Steam hasn't asked for much out of the usual - it's upsetting people because Steam can now effectively enforce it.

Is there anyone on the consumer side who is happy with the idea of not being able to resell a game?

Oooh, I hate it when I spot my own grammatical errors. With respect to not being able to resell a game, I agree with you that this is not a good step forward for people who actually do this. I have never resold a game, but I can see how this can annoy others.

However, we need to take the good and the bad. Steam is a very different form of distribution - it is, in fact, a step towards entirely digital distribution, and I think that the boxed copies of HL2 are a compromise on Steam, rather than Steam's true vision.

How do you resell the experience of watching a movie at a cinema? Or taking a trek through a jungle? You can't, really. It's a radical re-think, perhaps, but maybe if you look at electronic entertainment as an experience as opposed to a product, the idea that you can't 're-sell' a game wouldn't be so traumatic. It's like watching a show at the movies instead of buying the DVD, so to speak. At the end of the day, if you don't like the concept, hey, you don't really have to buy the game.

[Mark Asher]

How do you resell the experience of watching a movie at a cinema? Or taking a trek through a jungle? You can't, really. It's a radical re-think, perhaps, but maybe if you look at electronic entertainment as an experience as opposed to a product, the idea that you can't 're-sell' a game wouldn't be so traumatic. It's like watching a show at the movies instead of buying the DVD, so to speak. At the end of the day, if you don't like the concept, hey, you don't really have to buy the game.

But I can buy the DVD and then lend it to a friend or trade it in at Gamestop or Slackers or any one of a number of places.

I don't expect to be able to resell the experience of going to the movies.

If you want to make an analogy for movies and games, then MMOs are the movie theatre experience and Half-Life is buying the DVD.

If this is a radical re-think, explain how this re-think is a benefit for the consumer? Would you like this same "re-think" extended to books, movies, and music? Would you never want to be able to lend a book to a friend again unless you gave him your Doubleday account information?

All you have to do is go to a Gamestop and look at the racks of used games. Consumers want to be able to resell their games. Really, how many games are worth holding onto? How many will you actually replay?

[Mark Asher]

Yet you play MMOs, which don't let you dispose of them the way you want.

For many of them I can give the CD to a friend and he can install and then set up his own account. Heck, for a lot of them you don't even need to buy the game anymore - you can just download the client and pay as you go. And those games only try to connect to the game servers when you tell them to! Go figure!

MMOs are different anyway. They require a whole service infrastructure that single player games like HL2 don't require.

Steve, never once have I seen you reply to the question of whether you think not being able to resell or lend games is a good step forward for the consumer. This is not a beating your wife question. What do you really think?

[Chris Nahr]

Are there any, repeat any, hassles with uninstalling either Steam, or HL2?

None that I recall. The uninstaller is the best Steam feature, by far.

[steve]

For many of them I can give the CD to a friend and he can install and then set up his own account. Heck, for a lot of them you don't even need to buy the game anymore - you can just download the client and pay as you go. And those games only try to connect to the game servers when you tell them to! Go figure!
But they have to set up their own account! And enter in a credit card number! And download patches! Why can't they just login and start playing? What a hassle!

Mark, you've never said if not being able to resell your MMO is good for the consumer. Why do you keep ducking that question?

MMOs are different anyway. They require a whole service infrastructure that single player games like HL2 don't require.
Some day it will finally dawn on you that Half-Life 2 isn't just a single-player game, just like there was probably a point where you finally "got" the MMO versus a regular RPG. It also has a service infrastructure. Just because you keep closing your eyes and saying, "It's not there! It's not there!" doesn't make it so.

You were probabably the guy screaming on Usenet, "Why would I want to pay for Ultima Online when I can play Ultima 7 forever? It's crazy talk!"

[quiote]Steve, never once have I seen you reply to the question of whether you think not being able to resell or lend games is a good step forward for the consumer. This is not a beating your wife question. What do you really think?[/quote]
I can't really speak for consumers, but I believe I said, multiple times, that I personally don't care about selling games, since I've never sold a PC game in my life.

Also as I've said before, it's a problem for whatever percentage of PC gamers do this, but like the same issue with MMOs, it's up to consumers to decide whether they think free mods, easy patches and updates, friends lists etc., is worth those hassle with re-sell. (And it's just more of a hassle; it's still possible.)

I'm not going to decide for consumers whether it's a good step foward or not because they are more than capable of doing that for themselves and voting with their wallets, but I will say this: Steam works fine for me. eLicence works fine. Buying digital works fine, and is more convenient for a lot of products (like Out of the Park and Front Office Football, which had no retail distribution). Stardock's system works better, but it probably wouldn't scale to the level of Half-Life 2. (Does anyone know if you could just take the downloaded GalCiv and move it to another machine and have it work?)

Are those issues worth not being able to re-sell the game? Again, I can't speak for all consumers, but I don't think it's the end of the world. It may be a step backward, but I think game reselling will eventually hit a snag once the police start requiring the stores to operate like pawn shops.

[steve]

If this is a radical re-think, explain how this re-think is a benefit for the consumer? Would you like this same "re-think" extended to books, movies, and music?
Ever heard of this thing called iTunes? It's a pretty radical "re-think" of how music should be distributed.

Instead of buying CDs, you buy digital bits! And there are restrictions on what you can do with those digital bits! They can't be re-sold, or easily lent to someone (you'd need to burn a CD, or play the songs over the radio feature, I guess). They are in a weird format with DRM, they can only be burned to CDs a certain amount of times (not sure if that's still the case). iTunes is obtrusive software, it installs a device driver, it becomes your default player, blah blah blah.

But here's the kicker: millions of people have said this is okay because they like browsing the store, they like buying songs instead of full CDs, it's convenient, it's easy, etc.

So in this case, some consumers have decided that it's okay to put up with some restrictions.

And maybe it's possible that some consumers will be okay with something like Steam if it gets them easy access to mods, makes patching seamless, and let's them pre-order and pre-download future products so that all it takes at launch is something that "unlocks" the file and makes it ready to go.

[Graeme Dice]

Some day it will finally dawn on you that Half-Life 2 isn't just a single-player game, just like there was probably a point where you finally "got" the MMO versus a regular RPG.

Wrong. It's nothing more than a single player game, with multiplayer components that are utterly irrelevant to the actual purchase and that will never be used.

[JM]

iTunes provides a service that wasn't available before. Using iTunes the player does not require you using iTunes the store, and using iTunes the store means you can pay for the exact music you want and download it there and then rather than having to go to the store to buy a CD etc etc. Steam provides that 'ease of use' but prevents you from having any other options, and doesn't provide anything else useful(OMG IT PATCHES!!!! So does Dawn of War, for fucks sake), but pisses a lot of people off.

Steve, seriously, I don't get your hard-on for Steam. What's with your inability to see even the slightest problem with it?

[Jeff Green]

Hey, here's something weird, though, Steve: I use iTunes all the time now, and I still buy CDs. And guess what?! When I buy CDs at the retail store, I don't have to unlock them with iTunes! It's like, I own the product already and they don't fuck with me!

Also: anything I buy on iTunes I can easily burn on CDs and give to my friends.

Also: iTunes doesn't sit in my system tray, or try to update itself or put new shit I didn't ask for on my PC. It, get this: asks me first!

[Chris Nahr]

(Does anyone know if you could just take the downloaded GalCiv and move it to another machine and have it work?)

Of course. Stardock games don't use any copy protection whatsoever. Their utility even includes a backup function that makes a ready-to-reinstall archive copy of your installed game. Nothing is tied to any system or user or license, except for the actual download process.

[jafd]

Some day it will finally dawn on you that Half-Life 2 isn't just a single-player game [...] It also has a service infrastructure.
You're completely missing the point here, over and over, and since I'm pretty sure you aren't stupid, you must be missing it deliberately in order to make your own point. Which is fine.

Perhaps you're doing this in an ironic sense, to throw Valve's own method of "deliberately missing the point" into sharp relief. Whatever. Plans within plans within plans? It's too much trouble to think about! I just want to play games.

Steve, you keep comparing HL2 to an MMOG, even though it's plainly a specious comparison. The only reason the two have anything to do with each other is, that Valve has decreed that they do. The fact that anyone can just go warez HL2 and bypass all this "service infrastructure" is proof enough that they are separate animals here.

Are there people warezing, say, WoW? Well, sure, technically; anyone saavy with a net connect can leech the client, and I doubt Blizzard would prefer that they do. But it doesn't matter, because the WoW game is a service. There is no playing it at all without a central server. Which can't be cracked or bypassed, only emulated.

Half-Life 2, The Single Player Game, however, can be readily experienced without any "service." The reasons why one cannot just play HL2 on whatever terms they see fit have nothing to do with technology, and everything to do with moral and legal issues.

So all this talk of "you play MMOGs!" and "that's a service!" and "it should be fine!" are simply bullshit. You must know this. You must be taking the position you are, in order to support Valve's right to package their game in whatever deal they want to.

As it happens, I support their right to do so. Furthermore, I think Steam is a wonderful thing; I've been clamoring for a way to just buy games over the net for years.

What I do not accept, is the slimy way Valve is going about this whole thing. They're saying, "Okay you could just buy Our game and play it, but no! We decree that you must jump through hoops A, B, and C, in order so that We may be pleased! Furthermore, We will lie to you with Our bald faces hanging out and say that We are doing this for your benefit!" This hoop-jumping has not been presented in a way that I deem to be acceptable, and in a way that another non-zero segment of the gaming populace deems acceptable.

Comparing this situation to MMOGs is completely specious, and Steve, if you aren't making the comparison in an ironic sense, you're simply choosing to blind yourself to the facts here. On this day of all days, how dare you make Baby Jesus Gamer cry like this?

[Rywill]

While I have never heard it updating games you had not previously selected to play. If it did start doing that, you could just right click on the game in question, choose properties and select for it not to update that game in the future (you can also delete any content it downloaded on the same screen).
It's definitely updating games I haven't previously selected to play. (I'm assuming, here, that if the game comes "pre-selected," that doesn't count as me selecting it.) I have no interest in HL2 DM and no interest in CS, and have never selected either one as anything I'm interested in. Despite that, Steam is always insisting on downloading or unlocking or patching those games before it will let me play HL2, which is the only game I'm interested in.

Good tips on the other stuff, which I've now disabled. I wish it wouldn't enable that stuff by default. Like Jeff said--if you think I might want some other game, or auto-updates on some game, at least ASK ME FIRST (preferably, don't even ask--wait for me to say "I want X" before you start doing X). If Steam isn't going to have that basic courtesy, at least make it easy to disable--like putting a "Cancel" and "Don't update this game in the future" checkbox on the update screen. I'm not the world's most savvy computer user, but I've been gaming for decades, and it took me probably three minutes of clicking to find out how to turn this stuff off, even after you had told me it could be turned off.

My objection isn't to the Steam concept, it's to the implementation. Rather than making it something that's easy to work with for me, they're making it something that does a ton of stuff I don't want and didn't request and then they make it unintuitive to turn off. I guess they probably do that so they can claim "X million people downloaded Counterstrike!" or whatever. Lame.

Steve, the comparison to MMOs or needing to patch games, that's just silly. Like various people have said, (1) MMOs, at least the ones I've played, are set up the way they are because there's no other reasonable alternative, which is not the case with HL2; (2) MMOs generally only do stuff you ask--they download game content you ask for and download patches only if and when you say "I want to play this game"; and (3) MMOs don't auto-load some background program that is doing stuff with your computer without telling you even when you're not playing the game.

[steve]

Steve, seriously, I don't get your hard-on for Steam. What's with your inability to see even the slightest problem with it?
I see tons of problems with it. It should never have itself default to being on with a reboot (why would it need to run when you're not playing the game), it had launch problems, it's not exactly the most clear interface, it has too many defaults to "on."

The irrational hatred directed toward it--often by people who've never tried it--is what I find odd.

[Mark Asher]

Mark, you've never said if not being able to resell your MMO is good for the consumer. Why do you keep ducking that question?

Actually, I'd prefer it if you could resell your MMO CD and someone else could use it to install and open an account. I've accepted the way it is for MMOs because they are unique among games. They can only be played on the company servers and they are more expensive to maintain.

It's not even the ability to resell as much as it's the inability to really own HL2 in the traditional sense that it becomes my property to dispose of that bothers me. One game (and MMOs), ok. If it's "the future" as Chet said, than the future kind of sucks. Anyway, I'll be surprised if it catches on. Publishers will have trouble getting gamers to buy in to this kind of scheme if the game isn't HL2 or an MMO.

There, I've made a statement. Your turn.

[steve]

Hey, here's something weird, though, Steve: I use iTunes all the time now, and I still buy CDs. And guess what?! When I buy CDs at the retail store, I don't have to unlock them with iTunes! It's like, I own the product already and they don't fuck with me!
Wow, Jeff, that's great! You know what? I got World of WarCraft and Steam didn't kick in when I launched it! It's like Steam is only connected to Half-Life 2 or something!

I didn't realize Steam was required to unlock other games, which seems to be what you're insinuating here. If you're trying to draw some analogy, your point would make sense only if there was a way to buy CDs with iTunes-only files on them.

Also: anything I buy on iTunes I can easily burn on CDs and give to my friends.
But there's an extra step! You used to be able to just hand them the CD! Now you need to spend MONEY on a blank CD to give them a copy! Mark Asher would be SHOCKED!

(Is there still a restriction on the number of times an AAC file can be burned to a CD? How about the number of times it can be copied to a different iPod? Or is that part of the WMV DRM crap? Honest question, I don't remember this stuff.)

Also: iTunes doesn't sit in my system tray, or try to update itself or put new shit I didn't ask for on my PC. It, get this: asks me first!
Last I checked, iTunes does run continuously in the background, installs a device driver that has screwed up some people's CD burning... and it does this without asking.

And you do know you can turn all of that Steam crap off, right? It should default to off, but Vavle is being rather fascist about running Steam all the time.

[steve]

Of course. Stardock games don't use any copy protection whatsoever. Their utility even includes a backup function that makes a ready-to-reinstall archive copy of your installed game. Nothing is tied to any system or user or license, except for the actual download process.
Which works for fans of GalCiv, who are probably older and actually have a conscious. Kids aren't saying, "D00d, I just warezed GalCiv and Disciples II, yo!"

It would probably be a disaster for a game like Half-Life 2 to go out unprotected. In fact, I read some of the Stardock people on their site saying they didn't think their system would scale for a game like that.

[steve]

There, I've made a statement. Your turn.
No, you didn't. You said it wasn't good for Mark Asher. You didn't answer whether it's good for consumers.

I've said, over and over again: I don't care if Half-Life 2 can't be re-sold. It's not an issue for me because I don't re-sell games. I keep them, much like I keep books, and DVDs, and music CDs. Even some I don't like.

If people want to re-sell a game, they'll just have to decide if it's worth it, much like they're alread doing with MMOs, and other things that can't be easily re-sold or transferred.

[Jeff Green]

Buh. I just lost an entire gigantic reply. Stupid computers.

So let me give an abbreviated reply instead.

I didn't realize Steam was required to unlock other games, which seems to be what you're insinuating here. If you're trying to draw some analogy, your point would make sense only if there was a way to buy CDs with iTunes-only files on them.

This is why we will debate this forever, because we're just coming at this from completely different places. I actually think this is exactly the opposite of what I am saying. What I am saying is that your analogy between iTunes and Steam, between what consumers should expect/put up with or not, does not make sense to me. Let's say that, flush with some extra holiday dollars and the burning desire to hear some great new music, I decide to purchase the brand new CD by Lindsay Lohan. (Umm, not that I'd ever do that--ha ha!) If I purchase this over iTunes, then, yes, if I want to share Lindsay's musical genius with the ones I love, I will indeed have to go through the extra step of buying a blank CD and burning it. But that's okay with me, because I knew this going into it. I accept this additional hassle as part of the price of dealing with a digital download. Had I not wanted this hassle, I could have just bought the Lindsay Lohan CD at my local store, endured the sneers of the record store clerks, and then shared the musical magic with my friends at no additional cost or hassle. iTunes and CDs are not intrinsically tied together the way Half-Life and Steam are.

Right now, if I go to the store and buy two products, one being Half-Life 2 and the other being the Lindsay Lohan CD, only one of the two is not going to make me go online, create an account for a system I have no interest in, and then make me "unlock" the product before I can even use it. To me, bottom line, this is just a cruddy, consumer-hostile system.--for those who have not bought into the program of downloading online. I'm all for "the future" here, really--I just really object to the way it was foisted on us.

I do not like Steam, Steve-I-Am.

[DaveC]

Well, Jeff you do have choice. Don't buy any Valve products. Problem solved. Also, for your own sanity don't buy any Lohan records either.

[Jeff Green]

Yes, yes, I know it is my choice not to buy Valve products. That's the pat line everyone likes to keep bringing up in these threads. As my 10-year-old daughter would say: "Durrr." So yeah, I won't--no worries there. I won't. And while Valve won't suffer with the loss of my $50--couldn't they have just done a few things to make this slightly less hostile of a process, so maybe consumers like myself and others on this forum weren't so categorically offended by it? Like I and others keep saying, it's not the theory we object to--it's the way it was implemented.

Here's something else I keep thinking about: what if every game company now decided, based on Valve's initiative here, to come up with their own version of Steam? So that every time you bring home a single-player game, you now have to register with some new system, with a different company, and will have like 20 different apps sitting in the system tray, clogging up your system, downloading patches and updates for things you never heard of and never wanted?

[DaveC]

I don't think it's an issue. I launch Steam when I want to play and that's the only time it's sitting in my tray "hogging" resources. I, for one welcome our new online distribution overlords. If I never had to go to a brick and mortar store to buy a game I'd be okay with that. As for patches and unwanted downloads that has already been addressed, you can turn all of that off if you want.

P.S. Right now Steam is running and is taking up 23MB and all of 0% CPU.

[RedTide]

I haven't had any problems with Steam. If I'm not playing I don't have it open, and as I have DSL I don't have to worry about connecting to the internet to play and I haven't had it forcing downloads on me. I don't love it, but I certaintly don't mind it.

Also I am the only one of my friends that plays PC games so I don't need to worry about lending it out.

[Derek Meister]

I don't think it's an issue. I launch Steam when I want to play and that's the only time it's sitting in my tray "hogging" resources. I, for one welcome our new online distribution overlords.

Steam isn't so bad from a technical viewpoint, but consider for a second Jeff Green's theoretical world in which all the software companies decided tomorrow to create their own versions of Steam. Do you really believe all of them would perform like Steam does? Not sneak in low-level drivers similar in function to StarForce? Behave well with other programs or your internet connection?

Maybe I'm just overly cynical. but I'm personally kind of leary of online distribution coming from companies like Electronic Arts.

[Mark Asher]

There, I've made a statement. Your turn.
No, you didn't. You said it wasn't good for Mark Asher. You didn't answer whether it's good for consumers.

I've said, over and over again: I don't care if Half-Life 2 can't be re-sold. It's not an issue for me because I don't re-sell games. I keep them, much like I keep books, and DVDs, and music CDs. Even some I don't like.

If people want to re-sell a game, they'll just have to decide if it's worth it, much like they're alread doing with MMOs, and other things that can't be easily re-sold or transferred.

I think it would be better if consumers could resell their MMO CD and the buyer could create a new game account with the CD. I thought that was more or less what I said previously, so I made it explicit this time. Your turn again.

[Destarius]

Mark:

Steam lets you download data which does not lend itself easily to resale. That's closer to a licensing scheme, rather than a sale of a product. Steve may not like this, but that's the state of affairs. There's no point grumbling endlessly like an old man about it (unless your Jeff Green, in which case you are keenly positioned to do exactly this).

If this model isn't acceptable to the market at large, Valve will receive a huge consumer reprimand. If sales prove otherwise, then, well, for lack of a better analogy, you have to live with the President the masses have voted for. (Remember, they chose Microsoft).

I agree that Steam has much to improve upon: for example, unrequested downloads should be a no-no in almost all cases. It also shouldn't automatically start itself.

[Qenan]

I'm not that worried about reselling my games (I seldom do), but there have been enough reported problems with Steam to keep me from buying Half Life 2. (Then again, I'm not a big FPS fan.)

MMORPGs have other things going for and against them... even so, many players _do_ sell accounts.

[Jason Becker]

I don't think it's an issue. I launch Steam when I want to play and that's the only time it's sitting in my tray "hogging" resources. I, for one welcome our new online distribution overlords.

Steam isn't so bad from a technical viewpoint, but consider for a second Jeff Green's theoretical world in which all the software companies decided tomorrow to create their own versions of Steam. Do you really believe all of them would perform like Steam does? Not sneak in low-level drivers similar in function to StarForce? Behave well with other programs or your internet connection?

Maybe I'm just overly cynical. but I'm personally kind of leary of online distribution coming from companies like Electronic Arts.

Sneaking in hidden or semi hidden stuff isn't new though. I'm sure most everyone here can attest to the fact of running msconfig many times to go into the startup section and unchecking all the shit that diffrent apps want to run when they install themsleves(and usually don't remove even when you un-install them).


Seeing an EA version of STEAM would be well not fun. :cry:

[DaveC]

Sneaking in hidden or semi hidden stuff isn't new though. I'm sure most everyone here can attest to the fact of running msconfig many times to go into the startup section and unchecking all the shit that diffrent apps want to run when they install themsleves(and usually don't remove even when you un-install them).


Seeing an EA version of STEAM would be well not fun. :cry:

No kidding, pretty well every media player out there installs all kinds of crap, especially Quicktime AND Real.

[Destarius]

No kidding, pretty well every media player out there installs all kinds of crap, especially Quicktime AND Real.

For that reason alone, I have stopped using BOTH of those applications. I *hate* applications which insist on trying to take over my entire system when I just want it to play a media file.

[shift6]

I've found Quicktime to be extremely well behaved and I always keep it installed. Yes, it defaults to running when Windows begins, etc. but it only requires a few boxes unchecked in the preferences and that's it. It doesn't try to override my file associations or reinsert itself into my startup or my system tray. When I am done watching a movie trailer or whatever, I close it and it's gone. Very well behaved.

[Jazar]

I've found Quicktime to be extremely well behaved and I always keep it installed. Yes, it defaults to running when Windows begins, etc. but it only requires a few boxes unchecked in the preferences and that's it. It doesn't try to override my file associations or reinsert itself into my startup or my system tray. When I am done watching a movie trailer or whatever, I close it and it's gone. Very well behaved.

What's annoying about QT is that even when checking out the system tray option it still keeps the registry key in the run folder: "C:\Program Files\QuickTime\qttask.exe" -atboottime" and I think it comes back even after deleting it. At least it did for me.

[DaveC]

I've found Quicktime to be extremely well behaved and I always keep it installed. Yes, it defaults to running when Windows begins, etc. but it only requires a few boxes unchecked in the preferences and that's it. It doesn't try to override my file associations or reinsert itself into my startup or my system tray. When I am done watching a movie trailer or whatever, I close it and it's gone. Very well behaved.

I hate Quicktime and use it only when I am forced to and that is usually because the audio world still has a slight Mac bias. There are other CODEC wrappers out there that get better results with higher compression, don't use audio CODECs that make everything sound like it's in a metal tube and don't lock my browser up randomly.

[Idar Thorvaldsen]

Stardock's system works better, but it probably wouldn't scale to the level of Half-Life 2.

Why shouldn't it scale better? Less hassle usually means less scaling problems.

[Toddy]

Got to say, I'm enjoying these Tastes Great! Less Filling! threads about Steam more than Half-Life 2 itself.

[DaveC]

Stardock's system works better, but it probably wouldn't scale to the level of Half-Life 2.

Why shouldn't it scale better? Less hassle usually means less scaling problems.

That isn't always the case and is really an over simplification. However, we have the horse's mouth right here on Qt3 so Brad would be able to say.

[russellmz00]

ok, i'm back to hating steam. tried to play condition zero, it immediately tried to update itself. i think it failed. i say i think because the progress bar was blank half the time. so i started to play no one lives forever while i waited to play cz. after a while i noticed my hard drive making sounds so i went back and saw steam was trying to connect and log me in. a few minutes later i killed the process since logging usually takes about ten or twenty seconds for me. trying to start steam again failed as well. i am wondering if half life or cz single player will still work now...:(

[Bill Dungsroman]

ok, i'm back to hating steam. tried to play condition zero, it immediately tried to update itself. i think it failed. i say i think because the progress bar was blank half the time. so i started to play no one lives forever while i waited to play cz. after a while i noticed my hard drive making sounds so i went back and saw steam was trying to connect and log me in. a few minutes later i killed the process since logging usually takes about ten or twenty seconds for me. trying to start steam again failed as well. i am wondering if half life or cz single player will still work now...:(
I'm kind of off the Steam Hating tip, but the one thing I really can't stand is how vague it is when it tries to connect, fails, and then keeps trying while never providing any kind of notification that it is. It will crash your game (HL2 or the one you booted up in disgust) when it finally links, whenever the hell that is. If there's a way to stop the retrying, I'd like to know about it.

[russellmz00]

ok, so i decide i want to play some condition zero. grab my backup cd and download the installer for steam. the steam site states it is "under 1mb," which seems small to me but i am glad since i only have a modem. the last time i tried to reinstall cz it told me i needed steam installed first. oh, how humorous that was to me since i had not backed up a steam installer.

after running the downlaoded installer it spends a long time downloading the actual installer, which is significantly larger than 1mb. whatever, i have a book on the final days before the surrender of japan in wwii by me so i can just catch up on my reading. joyfully, the features where the progress meter only shows up half the time and the total lack of warning about how big a file it is are still there .

steam finishes the download. i then put in my backup cd, which i made in march 2005. i double click the steam backup exe and wait while it decompresses. (by this time in the book, america has just put the finishing touches on the two a-bombs) after the decompression gets 90% done on the progress meter it asks for my "steam backup disk 2.dat."

w...t...f

the backup only has one cd. maybe they mean the half life backup i made, too? no, that doesn't work either...ok, off to the internet to do googling.

steam forum solution (http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=269272)

ok, so i have to change some file names to get around the error message. fine.

again with the decompressing. (threats of rebellion by the army prevent the government from accepting a quick surrender. a-bombs were dropped. some american prisoners were executed)

steam updates cz. i check the update news on cz. the last update was on aug 2004. i had made the backup in march of 2005. an attempt to bitch about steam fails when firefox keeps crashing when i open it. i go back to reading my book.

the update finishes. i check system resources: <5% left. ok, reboot.

the cz config files and audio/graphics settings were not included in the steam backup. neither were the server filter settings. cute. i redo all of those. when i click on a server, i can't connect to any servers for some reason, possibly due to the rainy weather outside.

(the emperor tells his cabinent his intention to annouce his willingness to surrender on the radio, the book tells of how political enemies turn to each other sobbing looking for comfort, how those who bowed down to the emperor do not rise after he leaves, because they are crying on the floor)

elapsed time to final install: 1 hr 50 min.
number of minutes playing: zero

[BooTx]

I hear ya. I'm also on dial-up and Steam can be a nightmare. I'd actually like to start up a local server and try out CS:S with some bots, but of course I can't because I need to download an enormous patch. They don't tell you how big the actual file size is, but the progress bar said 1500 minutes remaining, so it would have to be something like 200 megs. Spec-fucking-tacular.

Luckily Half-Life 2 hasn't been patched that much; only took me about six hours to get that game up and running. God help me if they release a large patch and I accidentally start Steam up while I'm online.

Then of course there's the fact that Steam frequently crashes my Internet connection when I'm playing TFC. A problem since Steam's launch that has yet to be fixed. That's okay though; it's not like I actually expected to play this game that I payed for.

</rant>

I think Steam is actually a pretty brilliant delivery/support system, though. It's just a shame that people who are stuck on analog modems get fucked so prodigiously.

[Dave Long]

Why is it such a great system if there are broken things in it? Specifically, when you say TFC frequently crashes your Internet connection, doesn't that make you think that maybe this system isn't so great? It's not even supplying the patches that are supposed to make it so great.

--Dave

[Igor Muravyev]

Why is it such a great system if there are broken things in it? Specifically, when you say TFC frequently crashes your Internet connection, doesn't that make you think that maybe this system isn't so great? It's not even supplying the patches that are supposed to make it so great.

--Dave

Dave, because the idea in general is good, but the way Steam is implemented is horribly poor. Maybe they'll make it better one day. Maybe not.

[Hetzer]

Hello there First Post:


Do it like me:

1. Try to install HL"

2. Wait for 2 Hours untill its installed (dont ask me why, it did(Bought it on release))

3. Try to play

4. Get miffed with steam

5. Open the Garbage Bin, put cd in it

6. Never buy a valve game again


Happy me that im not that much interested in FPS, but i had the same way back with sierra (Outpost) never bought a game again from them.

[russellmz00]

trying to search for "disconnected failed to connect game server" gives me this on the steam boards:

Fatal error: Allowed memory size of 8388608 bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 35 bytes) in /valve/www/forums.steampowered.com/forums_2.3.3/admin/db_mysql.php on line 154


i concede, steam wins. considering i am someone who downloaded 300mb over a modem and still didn't give up, i tip my hat to steam. an amateur would have just made the game not start at all, but making the search function on their tech forum fail? and making an archive backup screw up a steam update but can be fixed with a simple file renaming but not fixing that bug themselves? that's just style pwning there.

off to play the single player bots. and then after i get bored in ten minutes, thief 2 fan missions.

[Hanzii]

From the Civ IV: BtS thread, since that shouldn't be about Steam issues:

Fucking Steam.

'That game is currently not avaliable - try again later'

I hate hate hate people that make error messages that contain no information whatsoever.
I purchased the game. Download is at 100% and the original cd is in the drive. The baby is sleeping and now I have about an hour to play my new game and Steam won't let me - unacceptable and why physical media isn't going away in the forseeable future.

Oh, and since they've translated the Steam interface but not the answerbase to my language it means that searching for the exact wording of the error message to see if it's explained somewhere is now impossible... fuck Steam.

Edit: The fact that I'm in full holiday mode and forgot it was sunday means that Steam is in fact my only option. Who wants to bet that support won't get back to me before monday?

[Fugitive]

Are you running it under Vista? I had to start running the Steam client as an administrator to make that message go away, which seems to be the common fix from a brief look at the Steam forums.

[Hanzii]

I love you, man.

So perhaps I hate Vista more than Steam.
But on the other hand the bad error message and partial translation still kept me from finding this solution on my own.

[Igor Muravyev]

Steam fanboys need to read this thread some more and realize it's not all flowers..

[JPR]

Steam fanboys need to read this thread some more and realize it's not all flowers..

There is a difference between a fan and a fanboy.

Also, you need to read this thread and realize it's been two and a half years since this thread was created. Steam has improved since launch.

[AndrewM]

Yeah, I remember the very early version they released that let you play Half-Life for free. It seemed like the UI wasn't even multi-threaded, because when it was updating something the UI wouldn't refresh. Good times. But hey, it let me play HL again, and Opposing Force, so I can't complain.

[RobotPants]

Steam fanboys need to read this thread some more and realize it's not all flowers..

You need to realize that not everyone has to hate something just because you do. And does Steam really have "fanboys"? Really?

[russellmz00]

now that's i'm off the modem, i sorta like steam. most of the time.

[Qmanol]

There is a difference between a fan and a fanboy.

Also, you need to read this thread and realize it's been two and a half years since this thread was created. Steam has improved since launch.

ORLY? I just bought Titan Quest and expansion, and had to REINSTALL WINDOWS to get them to work properly. Not to mention that the backups it created were missing the actual backup restore programs which I then had to download off some random website.

Much improved, I'm sure.

[zx81-Amd64]

Somehow, gamers got over the idea of paying monthly fees, of not being able to re-sell their game, of having logins, of having eternal downloads, of having server crashes, etc. It's accepted.



Well it's not accepted by me yet, or the dozen mates I know that play games often.
The anti-piracy aspect of Steam is it's main plus. The PC games industry is going to need something to beat the pirates if it is going to continue to survive as a gaming platform, and Steam does offer one of the best solutions.

Still all the other negative stuff it also enforces on its customers could be dropped/toned down to improve it's service imho. As soon as it does then I'd happily take it up, as would many others I suspect. Still It's on the right track, and I can see even Indie developers using some sort of network authentication service to help keep gaming alive.

It was interesting to see Introversion recently mention the problem they had been getting with pirate use of thier defcon game:

http://forums.introversion.co.uk/defcon/introversion/viewtopic.php?t=790

Digital distribution plus on-line authentication is a useful tool, but hopefully not the only method in the long run we can use.

[shang]

Where does the "you can't sell MMO-games" even come from? You can and many do. Once you cancel the subscription, most games remove your credit card info from the account, at which point there's no problem with selling the game.

The critical difference with Steam is that every game you purchased is tied to the same account and cannot be detached from it, so in order to resell games, you need to go through the extra hassle of creating a new Steam account for every game you purchase.

[Rob_Merritt]

Anyone here bought Company of Heroes via steam and have it not work after the recent patch pushed by steam? Mine I launch via steam, I see the THQ animated logo and then I see my desktop with the company of heroes minimize at the task bar. Clicking on it seems to do nothing. it was working just a few days ago.

I'm probably going to try to delete the game and redownload it sometime this week and see if that fixes it. It isn't a big deal but that was one of my complaints from the early days of steam. Why force patch a game that has single player?

[Lokust]

Rob - what you describe is exactly what happened to me after downloading the COH demo on Steam. Oddly, reinstalling my CD copy of Titan Quest seemed to indirectly fix the problem. Obviously YMMV and I don't know if you even have TQ, but it did resolve my problem with the demo.

[worm]

Steam is the best thing ever. If you're going into HL2 for just the single player you're making a huge mistake. I doubt people were too up on buying used HL1s because online play was contingent on the keycode.

The critical difference with Steam is that every game you purchased is tied to the same account and cannot be detached from it, so in order to resell games, you need to go through the extra hassle of creating a new Steam account for every game you purchase.
If you often need to make a trip to the pawn shop with your game collection for more dope cash, you just may not want to use Steam.

[Kunikos]

Only on the QT3 forums does a guy who registered 18 months ago call himself "relatively new."

Considering the "old guard" here came from Usenet newsgroups, and that it's about how often you've read/posted over your time here as opposed to just when you register (anyone can register an account, then go inactive for years), well, it's no wonder that the perspective is different.

[Guido Jones]

Considering the "old guard" here came from Usenet newsgroups, and that it's about how often you've read/posted over your time here as opposed to just when you register (anyone can register an account, then go inactive for years), well, it's no wonder that the perspective is different.

And only on QT3 would somebody write a response to a off hand remark nearly 3 years after it was made.

[scharmers]

GABBA GABBA WE ACCEPT YOU WE ACCEPT YOU ONE OF US

[Chuck Jordan]

So perhaps I hate Vista more than Steam.
But on the other hand the bad error message and partial translation still kept me from finding this solution on my own.
Which means you hate Steam. There are plenty of reasons to hate Vista and Steam separately and equally.

I ran into the exact same issue you describe. The only reason I downloaded Beyond the Sword instead of just going into any one of the dozen Best Buys in my area was because I was really impatient, was about to go out of town, and wanted to play the game right then. But instead I got the "currently unavailable" message.

I tried five times to get customer support over e-mail, but it kept bouncing my message back because I apparently had formatted something wrong, and then used a different e-mail address than the one I'd originally used to sign up for Steam. They still, four days later, haven't given me an answer.

Finally, two days after I saw it available at retail, I happened to be looking around on the main page, saw a link about Vista support, followed a series of pages on their "knowledge base", and finally found mention of the run-as-administrator bullshit. Two days and an hour of nonsense after paying for the thing, I can finally play it.

F MINUS. Steam sucks.

[JM]

Steam is currently sucking far less than Stardock Thingy :( Missed out on the Sins beta thanks to it refusing my email address and no replies from support. Gah!

[dermot]

Steam won't run HL2 on my Vista box but it will run DoD. Which crashes as soon as I start a game. Fucking annoying.

[zx81-Amd64]

Vista is going to be more hateful than steam, still it's part of the same philosophy so i'm happy to not support either currently(unless they get their acts together). Non-steam, pre-vista gaming for the win! go oldschool ;)

[marxeil]

Steam is currently sucking far less than Stardock Thingy :( Missed out on the Sins beta thanks to it refusing my email address and no replies from support. Gah!
I Never had a problem with Stardock central. Steam however, I had to reinstall several times, delete files (blob.dll etc') and wait for days for it to patch itself.

[Igor Muravyev]

I Never had a problem with Stardock central. Steam however, I had to reinstall several times, delete files (blob.dll etc') and wait for days for it to patch itself.
Ditto.

Oh well, what can we expect? Stardock actually knows how to make software besides games.

[scharmers]

Wow, the only problem I have with Steam is when I put my Steam computer into the DMZ (so I can bittorrent Steam games)

[marxeil]

I bought several games on Steam over the last two years. Steam's availability in that time was far from 100% but I just lived with it.
Today however, I got a new GeForce 8800 GTS (Hooray for me), installed it and then purchased the orange box. This was the last time Steam functioned today. It got stuck when starting to download, wouldn't let me start other previously installed games and basically had one of its usual bad days.

So I uninstalled / installed, checked drivers, firewall and all that crap, and its still hanging at "updating steam - 0% complete' for the last 2 hours.

Eventually I got sick of it, and wrote valve asking for a refund - good luck with that for me. What a crap way to celebrate my new vid card :(

[krokodile]

I, on the other hand, just downloaded Steam, and am having a wonderful time with it.

Its allowed me to see if my 'el shithole' laptop can handle DoW, and it can! So, rejoice, because that game may be in the future if I can scrape the change together to purchase it.


However, when I tried to get the Darwinia Demo, it wouldn't launch it. Oh well.

[Sebmojo]

Non-steam, pre-vista gaming for the win! go oldschool ;)

EDIT AUTOEXEC.BAT, CONFIG.SYS

[Derek French]

Only thing I have noticed lately that has been slightly annoying, is that some Steam updates don't show up until I manually restart Steam. Kinda like "just reboot" to get Windows working, "just restart" seems to unjam some of the Steam updates/functionality.

[mono]

If you restart Steam right now, you'll notice that Episode 2 is pre-loading.

[EvilIdler]

Yeah, the restart requirement is baffling. It polls the group/friendlist - why can't
it update a simplified weblink for new updates?

Anyway, my RSS feeds informed me of the pre-load, and I did the restart dance.
It's 3.08GB of data. Substantial size. Yummy.

[Wholly Schmidt]

Orange Box content has been preloading, Quake Wars just hit, TF2 is going strong. Steam always struggles with the surge around a big release, it shouldn't be a surprise if you're having issues right now.

[JD]

It's 3.08GB of data.
Did you see that info before you downloaded the data, or did you check the folder afterwards? Because, geez, Valve, would it kill you guys to tell me how much I'll be downloading when I open the 'View Preload Info' window? Knowing the package size would be neat, especially if you get the "Not enough diskspace" thingy. Maybe it's actually available somewhere - I didn't find it though. Not really thrilled in terms of usability. (Just that part - otherwise I'm fine with the service.)

-Julian

[EvilIdler]

I just selected all the Episode 2 files in my steamapps directory. Maybe I missed some data elsewhere, in which case it's bigger.

[marxeil]

Orange Box content has been preloading, Quake Wars just hit, TF2 is going strong. Steam always struggles with the surge around a big release, it shouldn't be a surprise if you're having issues right now.
Some indication that the servers are busy would ne nice. I'de like to know where the problem is so I won't waste my time trying to fix it. According to their help section, it must be on the client side. That might be true but it still means that the client is crap.

[SergioBAM]

especially if you get the "Not enough diskspace" thingy

Not enough diskspace?! Just go and drop a cool hundred on a new 500G HDD. I know what you mean though, I would like to know how much of my internetz cap I will be eating.

I am also surprised that Steam doesn't work on a bit torrent system (or a partial bit torrent system). It would stop most of the congestion during major game release days.

[marxeil]

I am also surprised that Steam doesn't work on a bit torrent system (or a partial bit torrent system). It would stop most of the congestion during major game release days.
It doesn't? Didn't they hire the guy who wrote bitorrent.

[Anti-Bunny]

It doesn't? Didn't they hire the guy who wrote bitorrent.
It was a while ago, and he has since left Valve. I think he helped with the server software, but no, Steam is not p2p. ...not yet, anyway. That would be awesome for free content like maps and mods. Not sure people would be too hot about being forced to upload Valve content, though.

[Fugitive]

I'd at least want it to be optional, even if it's slower when it's off. Some people are still under bandwidth quotas, and I wouldn't want a download of a 4GB game to wind up eating up an even bigger, potentially unpredictable huge chunk of that.

[Boss]

No thanks on using me as a bittorrent zombie for Valve's games. Same goes for demos and other stuff.

If they want to run a service, then run the service with proper backend hardware and software to handle loads. You can't look at average throughput but rather peak times. I think they never estimate their peak very well, just like a thousand websites on the net, e-retail sites, etc.

[Jeremy Johnsen]

Only thing I have noticed lately that has been slightly annoying, is that some Steam updates don't show up until I manually restart Steam. Kinda like "just reboot" to get Windows working, "just restart" seems to unjam some of the Steam updates/functionality.
Yeah, this sucks. It meant for Bioshock instead of coming home from work to play, I came home from work to restart Steam and wait for teh rest of the game to download. Why not have a setting so it does all this for you?

[Kryten]

Does anyone know if it's possible to backup (even manually) pre-load files for games that aren't unlocked? I'm under a data cap on my home connection and wouldn't mind transferring as much of the pre-load data to my home PC from here at work.

[nutsak]

You could probably burn the .gcf's of the game to a DVD and transport them that way. That should cut down on how much it needs to download later on.

[EvilIdler]

Yeah, mirroring the Steam folder exactly should work if you log in with the same account in both places.
There's also some sort of archiving option in Steam itself. See if it does any good.

[Kryten]

The problem is you only get the "backup game files" within the Steam client once the game is fully installed and unlocked (so not for Portal or Ep2).

I'll give moving the .GCF's by name across a go, the naming scheme seems pretty user friendly.

[Jab2565]

It's been about a year since I've last used steam, so dumb question : do you still need to keep it on to play games you downloaded thru it?

[Anti-Bunny]

It's been about a year since I've last used steam, so dumb question : do you still need to keep it on to play games you downloaded thru it?
Yes..

[russellmz00]

i just poked around the steam settings and you can add non-steam games to your my games list. does that do anything besides let you launch the game? for example, let people in a group know they have the same non-steam game?

[SqueakyFoo]

i just poked around the steam settings and you can add non-steam games to your my games list. does that do anything besides let you launch the game? for example, let people in a group know they have the same non-steam game?
It lets people in your steam list know you're playing a non-steam game. And that's about it, I think. It may possibly give the title of the shortcut as well.

[Fugitive]

It lets people in your steam list know you're playing a non-steam game. And that's about it, I think. It may possibly give the title of the shortcut as well.
I just continue showing up as "Online" only and not "In-game" whenever I've used it.

Launching it through Steam does let you use the Steam Community overlay feature, though.

[SqueakyFoo]

Launching it through Steam does let you use the Steam Community overlay feature, though.
Which is really annoying for games that use shift-tab as a hot key. Although, I'm sure there's a way to remap the community features (at least I hope there is, I haven't actually looked).

[marxeil]

Well its been 3 or 4 days since I purchased the orange box, and Steam still refuses to work. I reinstalled it and now it just sits there with 0% updateding and does nothing. Still no reply from Valve but that's to be expected since the weekend just ended.
They also seem to have a lot on their hands, if their help forum is any indication. Lots of people with all kind of connection problems right now.

[Alistair]

So, can I buy Ep2 on its own? Steam gives a price, but not any way to pick it out I can see.

[Anti-Bunny]

Although, I'm sure there's a way to remap the community features (at least I hope there is, I haven't actually looked).
There is a way. Steam options.

[Sarkus]

So, can I buy Ep2 on its own? Steam gives a price, but not any way to pick it out I can see.

Apparently not ahead of time, so no pre-loading to play the minute it's unlocked. Crap move on Valve's part IMHO.

Supposedly Ep2, Portal, and TF2 will show up for seperate purchase on Wednesday.

I've been a Steam/Valve fan but this move, along with jacking the price up, have destroyed a nice chunk of the goodwill I had towards them. The only good news from my perspective is that I don't have an overwhelming desire to play Ep2 on day one, what with other interesting stuff coming out this week as well that will keep me busy.

[marxeil]

Well, it took about 12 days from purchase to actually playing anything in Orange Box. I loved Portal and developed a mild TF2 habbit.
Well, the update from 2 days ago put an end to that. I can't play anything on Steam right now. I'd elaborate about my frustration some more but I don't feel like it. I'll forget about it for a week and see if it sorts itself then.
I really used to like Steam, but I'm not gonna touch the Buy button there for a very long time.

[Coca Cola Zero]

I can't play anything on Steam right now. I'd elaborate about my frustration some more but I don't feel like it. I'll forget about it for a week and see if it sorts itself then.


This is Valve we're talking about here. Steam and The Source engine still have a lot of the same annoying bugs they've had since 2004, and you expect them to sort out your issue in a week?

[Derek French]

There is something going on with Steam, just today (Sat, 10/27) because the servers have been up and down a lot. I have 6 guys over for a LAN trying to play TF2 and its been difficult. Lots of kicks, lots of Not Logged In and some other things. It has been fine for the last hour though.

[Anti-Bunny]

Well, the update from 2 days ago put an end to that. I can't play anything on Steam right now. I'd elaborate about my frustration some more but I don't feel like it. I'll forget about it for a week and see if it sorts itself then.
What have you done to try to troubleshoot this? Because, it sounds like it didn't work over what might be a very easy-to-fix problem, so you flipped the keyboard and gave up immediately.

[marxeil]

What have you done to try to troubleshoot this? Because, it sounds like it didn't work over what might be a very easy-to-fix problem, so you flipped the keyboard and gave up immediately.
It might be an easy-to-fix problem (I doubt it), but the problem is not with my system. I had Steam going from working to not working to working to not working and so on and so forth without anything changing in my system. It appears that the non working periods coincide with updates / releases.
And how exactly did you deduce that I "flipped the keyboard and gave up immediately". I did everything listed on Steam's support page and a bunch of stuff that's not there. I ran the connection test (successfully), reinstalled Steam several times, rechecked that all my drivers / DX are updated, turned off firewall and AV, ran several trojan / hijack / virus tests and examined TCP packets (Well actually I didn't understand any of it, but it made me feel like a pro l33t computer person). I did everything other then a complete reformat (which I'll skip thanks you very much).

[Anti-Bunny]

I did everything listed on Steam's support page and a bunch of stuff that's not there. I ran the connection test (successfully), reinstalled Steam several times, rechecked that all my drivers / DX are updated, turned off firewall and AV, ran several trojan / hijack / virus tests and examined TCP packets (Well actually I didn't understand any of it, but it made me feel like a pro l33t computer person). I did everything other then a complete reformat (which I'll skip thanks you very much).
hmm, alright, did you submit a support ticket?

[marxeil]

hmm, alright, did you submit a support ticket?
Actually I did. I opened a ticket on Oct 3. Got an answer on Oct 25, a day before Steam broke again, so I added an update. I'm expecting an answer by Nov 20 - 22, by that time the pressure on valve's servers will decrease and I'll be able to play again. The tickets are really a nuisance for both me and Valve.

[meson]

heh, I feel your pain marxeil. steam stopped working for me in the beginning of october (launching steam freezes the computer) right after an update. i have done everything i and some helpful steampowered forumites could think of but to no avail. i havent given out hope just yet maybe valve can fix this before holidays.

[calvin940]

I am one of the folks that hasn't really had any issues with steam save one recently with Company of Heroes. In fact, I originally installed steam 3 computers ago and each time I upgrade, I just copy the entire steam directory from one machine to another, start Steam, log in and when launching it seems to quickly decrypt the game files for whatever game I am launching and away I go.

I have never had to re-download anything in the course of my Steam usage. The COH issue I had was a strange because when I initially purchased and downloaded it (on my 64-bit Vista), it was working fine (even after multiple rebooting over a period of a few days). Then one day, I powered up, tried to play, it came up with launch or register, I would select Launch and that was it. It would just hang trying to load the game. Turns out, after searching steam faq to no avail, creating a support ticket, the support staff pointed me to the Vista FAQ which instructed me to turn off UAC. I did that and COH began to work again. I found that pretty strange tho given I had been playing it on vista for weeks without that issue, but whatever.

I have always liked the idea of electronic purchases/downloads. No need for stupid NOCD, NODVD bullshit and I just don't like having to keep stacks of game discs around for the annoying spin-up, verify shutdown. So far for me, all the Steam pros have outweighed the disadvantages.

Cal

[SqueakyFoo]

I have never had, and continue to not have any issues with steam whatsoever.

[Derek French]

The only thing I would like to see, is an option to turn off that GUI alpha fade that the Steam window does when you close it. For some reason, on my computer, it takes just over a full second to go through the fade and drives my CPU to 100%. I would love to be able to turn that off.

[DTG]

STEAM is the reason I no longer buy anything associated with Valve or Half-Life, and why I avoid anything associated with it, as of 3 years ago or so. I view it like i do Starforce. It is an anti-consumer obstacle that blocks my use of something I simply want to pay for and use.

And avoiding Steam isn't too hard for a PC gamer (so far, at least)....and I spend about $50/month.

[Coca Cola Zero]

I don't view Steam in the same ballpark as Starforce at all. That's just...crazy talk.

I don't have any conceptual problems with Steam, I just hate the thousand and one small annoyances it has continued to have since forever -- like having to install all of your Steam games in one big directory, the way you often have to restart it to get it to notice new states like a game being fully ready to download and unlock, etc.

[Stroker Ace]

STEAM is the reason I no longer buy anything associated with Valve or Half-Life, and why I avoid anything associated with it, as of 2 or 3 years ago. I view it like i do Starforce. It is an anti-consumer obstacle that blocks my use of something I simply want to pay for and play.

And avoiding Steam isn't too hard for a PC gamer (so far, at least)....and I spend about $50/month.Duck and cover!

[DTG]

.....I don't have any conceptual problems with Steam, I just hate the thousand and one small annoyances it has continued to have since forever -- like having to install all of your Steam games in one big directory, the way you often have to restart it to get it to notice new states like a game being fully ready to download and unlock, etc.

I wrote a rant here a few years ago when I bought HL2 (about a year after it came out), so I won't repeat it. It was all the standard stuff people whined about. People here assured me at the time that the hours of "authenticating" or whatnot were totally temporary and acceptable at the time for a single-player game, so I shut up and tried to drink the cool-aid. But I also just stopped buying games that required Steam. I figured as operating systems changed, or as Valve got bought out by Youtube or whatever, that the system would become flakey. Your description of how it is today with Steam just reinforces my decision to stay away.

Yes, I'm the old curmudgeon on the porch with the shotgun. I'm even older than Jeff Green. I'm still buying my games in boxes with CDs or DVDs (or downloading them and burning them). For single player games, I get weird vibes when the game HAS to phone home before it can play.

[Igor Muravyev]

I try to stay away from Steam except for Valve games. There's really not much point since they usually cost the same or more than buying the game in the store, plus you get no box or physical goodies. They don't even have the good reason to start distributing the game before it shows up in stores.

[marxeil]

I actually like DD. Most of the games I bought on the last 2 years were from Steam, Stardock and Gamersgate. I just don't like to spend time going to shop for games (or anything else). Stardock and Gamersgate were painless.
Anyway, missing playing team based shooters, I tries ETQW demo last night. I quickly realized that its not for me and reinstalled. However, Steam must have sensed that I was abut to bail out on it, and promptly began to update itself. When I left home this morning it was up to 65% - Hurray!

[Janster]

Have no problems with steam either tbh.

And digital download is the future, please do not make us suffer through having to buy hardcopies again...

I can download 10+ gigs online without flinching these days, why should getting an online copy bother me.

I love digital download..it is here to stay ..for EVERYTHING that can be digitalized .

Thank you

Janster

[Qmanol]

For people like me, costing the same equals a 40% discount due to the exchange rates.

[EvilIdler]

40-60% discount here, and many games are NEVER ending up in the bargain bins.
Wish there were full games for purchase on consoles, too. But MS have the only DL service with regional pricing..

[bago]

State change notification is so V1

[Anti-Bunny]

People here assured me at the time that the hours of "authenticating" or whatnot were totally temporary and acceptable at the time for a single-player game
and they were?

[DennyA]

Wow. To me Steam is a cool setup that lets me (re)install games on any computer I own, without looking for disks, dealing with knowledge that I only have 3 total activations available, etc.

The only time I ever had problems with it was the day Half-Life 2 launched.

Sorry you guys have had issues, but if Steam works for you (and it does for me) it's great.

[Derek French]

We also just encountered the single best multiplayer feature of Steam. Usually, when we were trying to connect to a BF2 server at a LAN, it was along nightmare of trying to shout out IP addy's or such.

Steam friends list, Join Game option FTW! Everyone on the same server in less than 2 minutes.

[marxeil]

Well I'm happy to report that Steam is now back, and made me stay up until 1:30 playing TF2.
Now I'm trying to not buy Bloodlines for 10$ FOR A LIMITED TIME PERIOD.

[Anti-Bunny]

Well I'm happy to report that Steam is now back, and made me stay up until 1:30 playing TF2.
Now I'm trying to not buy Bloodlines for 10$ FOR A LIMITED TIME PERIOD.What fixed it?

[marxeil]

What fixed it?
Patience and time.

[Rogen]

I hate steam too. I brought HalfLife 2 over to my grandpa's house to show it to him, and while the game was installing, steam got out into the barn and killed half the chickens before anybody knew what the fuck

[Rogen]

The actual reason is that it runs itself, doesn't close when i tell it to, randomly forgets that I own some games and insists that I don't, and generally makes it slower and less convenient to play any games that require it.

[Cronox]

I just tried to fire up TF2 and got an error saying "Our servers are too busy to complete this operation, please try again in a few minutes". Generally I don’t have too much of a problem with steam, it’s not perfect but it’s not terrible, but the fact that I can’t even load a game I own because of a server issue at their end is infuriating.

[Quaro]

yeah that message sucks. The server's are busy over the weekend, which is of course when everyone wants to play!

[shang]

People are also dropping from games in the middle of the match because they "lost their connection to steam servers". It needs a longer grace time or something.

[Skipper]

I'm necro-ing this old thread because I have one question ...

WTF is with the Steam downloader!?!? I picked up a couple of titles yesterday (and two last week) and I can't get the damn things downloaded without it completely dying and me having to force it to restart. Need to go to bed and want to leave it running overnight. Nope, it'll die. Think you can pick up multiple titles and be okay getting them all? Nope. Think the downloader works as well as any resumable download program made in the last 5 years? Not a chance in hell.

I've had to restart every one of the four downloads multiple times. It'll die ever 2 to 20% or so and just never restart. Ever. It'll sit for hours until I restart the Steam client or manually click on the game as though I was going to start it. Somehow Steam sees that process as, "Oh, shit I guess you want to play that. Oh I see here it's not done downloading, let me get it." Then of course it'll die again 3 minutes later. The speed when downloading is all over the place as well, never consistent.

Who the fuck programed this part of the client? I mean the whole point of an online purchase game provider is that I can get the damn things right?

Sorry for the rant, but this shit is driving me batshit insane right now.

[Morkilus]

I think it's funny that in the help section that's exactly what they suggest to get your downloads to finish. Restart them. 9_9

[chet]

Couple of support tickets that might help. Paused stopped (http://support.steampowered.com/cgi-bin/steampowered.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=230&p_created=1094799426&p_sid=TiRFWGVi&p_lva=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX 3Jvd19jbnQ9MTAxJnBfcHJvZHM9JnBfY2F0cz0mcF9wdj0mcF9 jdj0mcF9zZWFyY2hfdHlwZT1hbnN3ZXJzLnNlYXJjaF9ubCZwX 3BhZ2U9MSZwX3NlYXJjaF90ZXh0PWRvd25sb2FkIHBhdXNlcw* *&p_li=&p_topview=1) - short answer, close steam, go into your steam folder, delete ClientRegistry.blob . Or it may be Conflicting software (http://support.steampowered.com/cgi-bin/steampowered.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=451&p_created=1145051724&p_sid=TiRFWGVi&p_lva=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX 3Jvd19jbnQ9MTAxJnBfcHJvZHM9JnBfY2F0cz0mcF9wdj0mcF9 jdj0mcF9zZWFyY2hfdHlwZT1hbnN3ZXJzLnNlYXJjaF9ubCZwX 3BhZ2U9MSZwX3NlYXJjaF90ZXh0PWRvd25sb2FkIHBhdXNlcw* *&p_li=&p_topview=1)

Chet

[Skipper]

Couple of support tickets that might help. Paused stopped (http://support.steampowered.com/cgi-bin/steampowered.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=230&p_created=1094799426&p_sid=TiRFWGVi&p_lva=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX 3Jvd19jbnQ9MTAxJnBfcHJvZHM9JnBfY2F0cz0mcF9wdj0mcF9 jdj0mcF9zZWFyY2hfdHlwZT1hbnN3ZXJzLnNlYXJjaF9ubCZwX 3BhZ2U9MSZwX3NlYXJjaF90ZXh0PWRvd25sb2FkIHBhdXNlcw* *&p_li=&p_topview=1) - short answer, close steam, go into your steam folder, delete ClientRegistry.blob . Or it may be Conflicting software (http://support.steampowered.com/cgi-bin/steampowered.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=451&p_created=1145051724&p_sid=TiRFWGVi&p_lva=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX 3Jvd19jbnQ9MTAxJnBfcHJvZHM9JnBfY2F0cz0mcF9wdj0mcF9 jdj0mcF9zZWFyY2hfdHlwZT1hbnN3ZXJzLnNlYXJjaF9ubCZwX 3BhZ2U9MSZwX3NlYXJjaF90ZXh0PWRvd25sb2FkIHBhdXNlcw* *&p_li=&p_topview=1)

Chet

Many, many thanks Chet. I changed my connection rate (was incorrect), deleted the blob and restarted Steam. Also just in case I paused my anti-virus NOD32, and Spybot resident programs. Things appear better now, hopefully they will hold up while I go out on errands. I'm going to download TF2 from the Orange Box which I hadn't yet gotten. We'll see how it does on this download.

[marxeil]

I got Vampire bloodlines stuck at 92% now. Been downloading it for the last week now.
Try double clicking it. I got it to say its will launch when its finished and then it started downloading again.

Edit - Oops, I see you already did that. Please ignore.

[jeffd]

I had the exact same problem myself the other day while trying to download the MTW2 expansion.

I've never had that happen with Steam before; usually the downloads are fine. Must be some bug introduced in the last update.

[MikeSofaer]

Bring your service back up! My girlfriend wants to play Portal, and I am in a state of utter apoplexy, chewing my hands into hardened cracking claws like a bad writer on absinthe, except not the weak kind they sell here, but the serious kind where you like are totally fucked up and write like Hemingway but with fewer cattle, which of course goes without saying and then you want to play Portal to see how you will do when you are totally fucked up on absinthe, maybe it's way easier, but you can't because STEAM IS DOWN!

[Tankero]

Breathe man, breathe. Chet'll pop over and fix it like The Fonz.

[Shadari]

Chet'll pop over and fix it like The Fonz.
Will he jump over any sharks on the way? ;)

[Janster]

A bit late but just want to say I LOVE STEAM, its the future.
It has some kiddy illnesses, and its not really ment for people with dialup mkay?

But for me..with my 25 mbit conn NEVER having to worry about patches/and getting my stuff when I want too...great.

Downsides... eh duh? no box I guess but who cares?

Jan

[SqueakyFoo]

Once more, in English this time please.

[skedastic]

Hmmm... just encountered my first bad Steam experience. Bought Jagged Alliance 2, and after a few WTF moments, started searching the forums. The Steam version has been all but unplayable (money is broken in the main game, saving is broken in the expansion) since release. Strategy First claims that it's Valve's fault. From what can be gleaned from forum posts, it does appear to me to be entirely Valve's fault, and Valve has neither said nor done anything about the issue. They're happy to keep taking money for the game, though.

So: don't buy JA2 from Steam. I for one won't buy any more older games from Steam, and will reduce all purchases.

Relevant Steam forums thread:

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=576049

[Quitch]

Wonderful auto-patcher, but damn is it slow to start, and the Steam browser really sucks a fat one. Still, better than Stardock Central.

Frankly, I want something like this, but for drivers.

[tiohn]

Still, better than Stardock Central.


Really? I only have to run Stardock Central when I need to update a game, not ever time I want to play one, and the Steam servers are slow as goddamn hell.

[GyRo567]

Ever since the Steam servers stopped having periodic downtime back in 2003 or whenever it was, I haven't had a single problem with the entire system. It's gotten dangerously close to the bloated level if you open up more than the "My Games" list, but that makes sense given the number of games Valve publishes on Steam.

Never have I experienced copy protection that gave me less hassle. It's easier than running 90s CD games. I don't have to enter a CD Key, and everything comes with a built in No-CD patch!

Obviously there is a large potential for disaster when I don't hold the keys to anything, but so far Valve has been a kind king in the land of software monarchy.

[Quitch]

Really? I only have to run Stardock Central when I need to update a game, not ever time I want to play one, and the Steam servers are slow as goddamn hell.

And this is why I dislike Stardock Central. I need to fire it up myself, elevate its privileges for reasons I don't understand, then confirm I want to update my applications, then find the ones it didn't tell me about for some reason.

Steam just loads into the tray, the end.

[Fugitive]

There's a new beta Steam client available (you can select it under File->Settings->Account) that's supposed to help with the stopped downloads problem, if anyone's still having trouble with it.

I ran into it myself while trying to download Max Payne 2. I left it running overnight, but it was stuck at 49% in the morning. I deleted clientregistry.blob and it started again, only to stop at 99%.

[Lokust]

Is there a reason that steam feels the need to redownload an entire game from scratch any time a patch comes out? I really wanted to play some COH online right now, but since there was a (fairly small) patch today I have to wait a few hours for the full game to redownload.