WoW: The joy of PvP

[Gary Whitta]

I just had my first ever MMO PvP experience tonight. I was happily toodling along, doing a long-distance courier quest in the Night Elf lands, when I was accosted on a dark and lonely stretch of road by an Orc Warrior.

I don't know if he'd spied me from afar and had sized me up, as the very first moment I was aware of him he was attacking me at close range. I think, though, that by the angle he came at me, he must have seen me coming from the nearby woods, moused over me to check my level and then decided to battle-charge over and smack me around.

I guess he figured that even though I was five levels above him, he could slice me up if he got into melee range since I was merely a lightly-armored mage. Oh, how wrong he was. After a couple of seconds of taking damage while I tried to figure out what the hell was going on, I rooted his ass to the spot with a Frost Nova spell, then backed off and proceeded to nuke his ass from a leisurely distance with Mark 4 Fireballs. He was a corpse about four seconds later.

I think I'm going to like PvP.

[Mark Asher]

Welcome to the club. At one time I hated PvP, but now I can't play on a server without it. It will get even better in WoW when they implement the battlefields.

Oh, and if you're a mage, don't forget that you can blink out of stuns. Also, polymorph is your buddy. If you poly and wait 5-6 seconds you can eat and drink to regain health and mana. This only works for PvP fights.

[Calistas]

the joys of a YOUNG pvp game. Wait till no one but top level people who out number you 2:1 will ever bother approaching you :(

Grumpy hehe.

[ChrisGrenard]

I quit playing the WoW beta over PVP issues. Nothing says "Fun!" like being level 30 and having about 5-6 level 60 guys come in and rape your entire town for 2 to 3 hours, while you do your best to deal upwards of 30 damage to them on each of your lives.

[Destarius]

I quit playing the WoW beta over PVP issues. Nothing says "Fun!" like being level 30 and having about 5-6 level 60 guys come in and rape your entire town for 2 to 3 hours, while you do your best to deal upwards of 30 damage to them on each of your lives.

I've alway wondered why people enjoy PvP games when engagements can be entirely one-sided. Myself, I would never consider such games fun, especially since I've got to work, and don't have as much time to spend on games as 12 year olds who travel in packs, thinking it's mighty heroic to gangbang lower-level players.

[Jason Cross]

I quit playing the WoW beta over PVP issues. Nothing says "Fun!" like being level 30 and having about 5-6 level 60 guys come in and rape your entire town for 2 to 3 hours, while you do your best to deal upwards of 30 damage to them on each of your lives.

Precisely why the guild I'm in - who are pretty well known to kick major ass in DAOC's PvP areas - opted for the non-PvP sever in Wow. Once you hit about level 15, you really aren't safe from being ganked by much higher level guys, bigger groups, whatever.

As beta pogressed, they added some nice beefy guards to most towns and cities that makes it hard for a group of 60s to terrorize a town that's not theirs (in the non-PvP server).

Hopefully the official Battlegrounds with their quests and rewards will come in pretty soon, giving those high-level powergamers some PvP targets that have more tangible rewards than beating up on a bunch of lowbies.

FWIW - I'm level 21 now and nobody in my guild has had, or seen, a single issue of PvP abuse yet. The occasional confrontation like Whitta described, which may be appropriate for the location, but nothing like the town raids that happened earlier in beta before the guard situation was improved.

[Union Carbide]

One thing that changed since the last time I played in Beta is that the home areas (Elwyn, Stormwind, Ironforge, Darnassus, Auberine, Dun Morogh, and Westfall for Alliance) are non-PVP for the home team, unless they explicitly attack the enemy or use /pvp. This allows you to get to lvl 20 or so in safe zones, before you have to face the free for all of the Contested Areas.

[HRose]

In beta and on the PvP server I was able to avoid any form of PvP till level 35. And this when all the rest of the population was at level 60.

The zones are built by levels. Even in the contested zones you'll probably meet opponents around your level. This is what makes the "casual" PvP so fun. Just as a digression between a quest and the other. The various spots on the map where you go doing quests, potentially become a PvP arena. If you die you just need to get back your corpse and try again with your party.

It's so fun that you'll spend hours just returing to the spot even if you are done with the quest. Just because group vs group around a farm is wonderful.

The WORST thing that could happen is about having to leave a spot for an hour or so because it's heavily camped. So?

The PvP is perfect, it just needs purposes and goals to add a flavor. The fun is already in, what is needed is a role within the structure of the game.

[Sean Tudor]

Are there any disadvantages to dying in WOW ? From what I have read you simply get resurrected in a graveyard ? What are the penalties ?

[McCrank]

Ultima Online had the best PVP to date, I've played them all...

[TheWombat]

Death in WoW causes modest item degradation, forcing you to pay up some money after a few deaths to get it fixed. And you have to run back to your corpse. Unless you get stuck somewhere and can't reach your body (rare, but possible) or you simply don't want to deal with the hassle (less likely now that many zones have multiple graveyards), you don't have to use the spirit healer which will cost you experience. So the death penalty is, in effect, trivial.

I happen to like it as it encourages exploration and heroics, unlike mainstream MMORPGs where you are scared shitless to go anywhere not thoroughly mapped out, annotated, and processed. Others think it takes the "edge" off and makes combat less exciting. YMMV.

[jafd]

Death at the hands of another player does not cause item degradation, to the best of my knowledge. It's just a matter of running back to your corpse or getting resurrected, that's it.

[steve]

Unless you get stuck somewhere and can't reach your body (rare, but possible) or you simply don't want to deal with the hassle (less likely now that many zones have multiple graveyards), you don't have to use the spirit healer which will cost you experience. So the death penalty is, in effect, trivial.
Unless it's different on the PvP server, paying the spirit healer now costs 25% degradation on all items, which blows.

No single-player game would ever penalize players for dying like an MMO does.

[Matthew Gallant]

Unless it's different on the PvP server, paying the spirit healer now costs 25% degradation on all items, which blows.

No single-player game would ever penalize players for dying like an MMO does.
Well, who pays the spirit healer? Honestly. Everybody runs to the corpse or gets a rez. I'm level twenty and haven't paid her yet.

[McBain]

Well, who pays the spirit healer? Honestly. Everybody runs to the corpse or gets a rez. I'm level twenty and haven't paid her yet.

Uh, ever tried sneaking through a level 50+ area to finish a long quest faster? =)

As for PvP, WoW's PvP is pretty solid. Definitely not as pathetic as DAoC's. "Dark Age of Don't Bother Trying to Hit Another Player With a Melee Weapon." Although, I must say, the limited death penalties and lack of looting does make it kind of pointless. I kept killing this mage the other day over in Stonetalon. Every time I popped him, he came back and tried again. I must have killed him five times before he finally realized he wasn't going to get me and stopped coming around.

[steve]

Well, who pays the spirit healer? Honestly. Everybody runs to the corpse or gets a rez. I'm level twenty and haven't paid her yet.
I used to do it all the time during the beta, particularly when I entered an area I was too wussy to be in and didn't want to run to my corpse and get my ass kicked again, or if I wanted to sell off items in town, or just didn't want to spend 20 minutes walking across the map to get to some other destination (particularly if it was in the opposite direction of my corpse).

I'd take the XP hit, because I could get that back. But I can't get back the time I waste going from Point A to B.

[Matthew Gallant]

I'd take the XP hit, because I could get that back. But I can't get back the time I waste going from Point A to B.
Isn't XP also a function of time?

I've just never been in a situation where it was a better idea to rez at SH than it was to take 30 seconds to run to the corpse.

[steve]

Isn't XP also a function of time?
That's true, but I wasn't obsessed with gaining levels, in the sense of worrying if I lost XP because my goal was simply to explore and complete quests. The leveling was the means to get more quests and see more areas.

It's sort of an arbitrary distinction, but I feel like running across the map just to get my corpse so I could run back to the place I started is pointless and boring. Running across the map to a quest, or to explore a new place, is... less boring.

[TheWombat]

Unless it's different on the PvP server, paying the spirit healer now costs 25% degradation on all items, which blows.

Nope, it's the same. spirit healer costs you the exp plus the degradation At low levels it's negligible, especially as a caster. At higher levels the costs do add up.

I used the spirit healer in beta several times to avoid long corpse runs, or when I died under the world or in the ocean due to bugs. So far in retail I haven't had to.

Sometimes it's just not worth the time to get your body, but usually it's ok.

[Gary Whitta]

I've used the spirit healer once or twice and unless I'm mistaken there's no longer an XP cost. Instead all your armor takes a 25% durability hit. So spirit healer rezzing is effectively now a cash-only cost.

[GuildBoss]

Tell me about stealth and stealth classes and what kind of role they play in PvP (currently). Please and thank you. :)

[Pace]

Tell me about stealth and stealth classes and what kind of role they play in PvP (currently). Please and thank you. :)

I personally don't know. I've never seen a stealth class participating in PvP.

[TrodKnee]

I think I'm going to like PvP.
Level based PvP sucks. Basically, you were caught totally unaware and unprepared by a character that was built to slice wimpy mages like you to shreds, but by virtue of catassing a few more hours than your attacker you were able to win easily. This is your idea of fun? Maybe you should take a trip to your local preschool and slap some small children around. Let's wait until you are repeatedly raped by gangs of hardcore PvPers many levels above you before you decide that "I WIN!" buttons are a good time.

For those of us who actually understand what good PvP is supposed to be like, this is yet another indicator that WoW is still a carebear game, even on the so called PvP servers.

[Shadari]

I think I'm going to like PvP.
Level based PvP sucks. Basically, you were caught totally unaware and unprepared by a character that was built to slice wimpy mages like you to shreds, but by virtue of catassing a few more hours than your attacker you were able to win easily. This is your idea of fun? Maybe you should take a trip to your local preschool and slap some small children around. Let's wait until you are repeatedly raped by gangs of hardcore PvPers many levels above you before you decide that "I WIN!" buttons are a good time.

For those of us who actually understand what good PvP is supposed to be like, this is yet another indicator that WoW is still a carebear game, even on the so called PvP servers.
It's only a matter of time before the vast majority of people are going to be at or near the level cap.

[Mark Asher]

Unless you get stuck somewhere and can't reach your body (rare, but possible) or you simply don't want to deal with the hassle (less likely now that many zones have multiple graveyards), you don't have to use the spirit healer which will cost you experience. So the death penalty is, in effect, trivial.
Unless it's different on the PvP server, paying the spirit healer now costs 25% degradation on all items, which blows.

No single-player game would ever penalize players for dying like an MMO does.

Except for ones that make you start the entire level over if you die.

[Mark Asher]

I think I'm going to like PvP.
Level based PvP sucks. Basically, you were caught totally unaware and unprepared by a character that was built to slice wimpy mages like you to shreds, but by virtue of catassing a few more hours than your attacker you were able to win easily. This is your idea of fun? Maybe you should take a trip to your local preschool and slap some small children around. Let's wait until you are repeatedly raped by gangs of hardcore PvPers many levels above you before you decide that "I WIN!" buttons are a good time.

For those of us who actually understand what good PvP is supposed to be like, this is yet another indicator that WoW is still a carebear game, even on the so called PvP servers.

Gary was attacked! He fought back and won. I know that's satisfying.

You know what you're going into when you play a game like this. Enemy players are like dangerous, unpredictable mobs to me. I try to avoid higher level ones and enjoy preying on the ones I can beat. It adds excitement to the game knowing I can be attacked at any time in contested areas. Sometimes, just getting away from a surprise attack is satisfying.

[McBain]

For those of us who actually understand what good PvP is supposed to be like, this is yet another indicator that WoW is still a carebear game, even on the so called PvP servers.

Any MMORPG is all about how much skill (and which skill) your character has. UO was the same shit. GM Tactics/Swords vs Adept Tactics/Swords. Who wins? That's what I thought. I remember having a GM archer when archery sucked, and then they made it godly for a while. I had about three or four days where I was able to just ridiculously own everyone I came across. Are you going to tell me that old school UO had carebear PvP because GM archer during patch X owned GM tankmage for a while?

Ever play Darktide in AC? Same shit, level 100 player vs level 10 player, who's going to win? Did anyone that played DT ever actually manage to create a new char without getting cut down by the level 25 guy who camped the newbie tower? No. Carebear PvP? Please.

Then you had DT2, where level didn't mean shit, it was all about character builds. My Defender/Mage was able to cut down people 8 levels higher in a fair fight. Why? Because I picked a better template than the other guy. How many times did the average player get killed by an engineer with 15 turrets outside a portal? Sure, there was no looting, but it wasn't carebear.

WoW's PvP is fine for what it is. Probably the best in terms of actual tactics/skill that I've seen in the genre. If they add looting and other PvP stuff, they'll have a good game on their hands. Right now it's just fun to gank Alliance newbies trying to steal my quest mobs in contested zones. Eventually, they will need to expand on things. That Gnome bitch who stole my XT:4 spawn got a good healty dose of earthshock followed by Rockbiter 3 enhanced battleaxe to the skull.

If you want to point to a game with shitty PvP, might I suggest DAoC or EverQuest?

[GuildBoss]

If you want to point to a game with shitty PvP, might I suggest DAoC or EverQuest?

It is what you make of it. SOme of the most entertaining PvP I've had was on EQ's Sullon Zek.

I think it comes down to actually having something to fight for, some purpose, that makes it fun (for me anyway).

So anyway, back to WoW PvP. WHat's Greg K. talking about when he says "There are certain higher-level fringe territories in Azeroth that are considered neutral or contested, and it's here where the alliance and the horde may attack each other."? Is this on all servers or just the PvP servers?

[TrodKnee]

Let me spell it out for those who have lost touch with fantasy "reality". If a mage five levels higher than a fighter sees the fighter coming and is able to prepare, then the fighter should be dead meat. But if the fighter can sneak up on the mage and get off a few seconds of attacks before the mage even knows what is going on, then that mage should be taking a dirt nap. We are talking about a huge bladed weapon slicing through cloth like butter. We are talking a mere 5 levels, not 25 levels. Clearly, in WoW PvP, Level>All.

After a couple of seconds of taking damage while I tried to figure out what the hell was going on, I rooted his ass to the spot with a Frost Nova spell, then backed off and proceeded to nuke his ass from a leisurely distance with Mark 4 Fireballs. He was a corpse about four seconds later.
Does this really sound like skill to you? It screams imbalance to me.

[jafd]

The warrior probably wasn't using a shield. If he'd have been sharp enough to Shield Bash the Frost Nova, follow up with a Hamstring (if he hadn't used that first, anyway, I like opening with that more than Rend), and then hammer Heroic Strike, he probably would have killed him for sure.

I was lucky enough to be playing before they nerfed warriors, you used to be able to Pummel and interrupt spellcasting every 10 seconds without wearing a shield. Good times, good times.

[Jason Cross]

Isn't XP also a function of time?
That's true, but I wasn't obsessed with gaining levels, in the sense of worrying if I lost XP because my goal was simply to explore and complete quests. The leveling was the means to get more quests and see more areas.

It's sort of an arbitrary distinction, but I feel like running across the map just to get my corpse so I could run back to the place I started is pointless and boring. Running across the map to a quest, or to explore a new place, is... less boring.

The monetary cost of repairing your equipped items 25% generally amounts to maybe 10-15 minutes of whacking monsters. It's about the same, maybe less, than the time it took to get back the lost XP when they had that system in place.

But the item degredation is better, because
a) until your item is totally down to zero it works at full effeciency, so really you don't get "set back" any
b) it's a money sink for the economy, which an MMO needs to have in place from the start. Or else it eventually gets so that the only items that have any value are really rare quest items, which cost a fortune, while everything else is "worthless junk" because everyone has too much money. Inflation gets out of control. And adding money sinks after that happens makes the entire user base complain.

There's no telling if WoW's economy will hold up over time, but Blizzard did a good job setting it up to succeed. Between small costs for flights, item repair, auctions that don't sell, and the using the mail system, they have a way to get money back out of the economy without breaking the player's backs with big huge money sinks.

[Mark Asher]

The warrior probably wasn't using a shield. If he'd have been sharp enough to Shield Bash the Frost Nova, follow up with a Hamstring (if he hadn't used that first, anyway, I like opening with that more than Rend), and then hammer Heroic Strike, he probably would have killed him for sure.

I was lucky enough to be playing before they nerfed warriors, you used to be able to Pummel and interrupt spellcasting every 10 seconds without wearing a shield. Good times, good times.

You can't really judge the PvP until you get level 60s fighting each other. Then each player has full access to the talents.

Right now mages can own everyone in one on one PvP due to the blink/poly combo. Warlocks can give them a hard time I guess. Mages can just blink away, poly you, eat and drink to get to full health and mana, and then get maximum distance and hit you with a pyroblast crit. If you're a melee, by the time you run to the mage you're probably dead from followup nukes, and if not he can just frost nova you and move away to finish you. Or blink away. He can even poly you again if things are going bad for some reason.

If you're a caster, getting hit by a pyroblast crit puts you one or two spells away from death. Pryroblast, instant cast fireblast, arcane missiles and you're dead.

That blink-poly stuff just is too much right now.

[Shadari]

That blink-poly stuff just is too much right now.
I'm not sure of the specifics off hand, but I believe priests have a silence spell or talent that can be pretty harsh on other spellcasters.

Edit: but mages have counterspell to throw into the mix... it gets interesting... I haven't tested all this stuff yet, but can't wait to.

[Rywill]

I've never used it in PvP, but the Rogue's kick is great at disrupting spellcasters in PvE. Obviously that's useless if I get jumped by a mage, but in a fair fight, I dunno.

[Gary Whitta]

If it makes TrodKnee feel any better, today I got rushed by a a horde rogue that was roughly equivalent to my level on two occasions, and on both occasions I got sliced to bits before I had time to respond.

I think I enjoy PvP servers better. There's just something more nerve-wracking about travelling through contested areas, there's a "don't go into those woods alone" kinda feel that I like.

[Mark Asher]

I've never used it in PvP, but the Rogue's kick is great at disrupting spellcasters in PvE. Obviously that's useless if I get jumped by a mage, but in a fair fight, I dunno.

It is good, but blink is an insta-cast spell. They can blink far enough away so that they are hard to get to before they cast polymorph on you. Once they cast poly on you, it's pretty much game over.

[Rywill]

Thanks for the tip, Mark.

I think I enjoy PvP servers better. There's just something more nerve-wracking about travelling through contested areas, there's a "don't go into those woods alone" kinda feel that I like.

This is exactly why I play PvP servers. Ever since getting my first taste of this on Rallos Zek lo these many years ago, it's been PvP all the way for me. I actually really like WoW's setup, with allied "safe zones" for the first 20 levels or so. That's cool.

[mr.white]

One thing that is completely messed up about the pvp system is that moonglade counts as contested. This is basically the druid training area, and you have to go there to learn shapeshifting etc. You always teleport into the same spot, and the first couple of times you go it's highly likely that enemy druids outlevel you.

The first time I went I got attacked and killed while exploring by a druid at level ??.

The second time I was attacked while getting a quest from the arch-druid, but got away because I had speed potions and my enemy didn't.

The third time I ganked some low level tauren with arrogant ease.

Every single time there were skeletons piled all over the area, especially the place you port in. All the while night elf and tauren guards are standing around enjoying the show. Pretty sloppy work by blizzard in my opinion.

[McBain]

Does this really sound like skill to you? It screams imbalance to me.

No, sounds more like the warrior was an idiot. Didn't have a freedom potion. Didn't build up rage before engaging to get a quick stun in. etc.

Right now mages can own everyone in one on one PvP due to the blink/poly combo.

False. Wait until you start running into competent Shaman. You might be agreeing with Trodknee real quick. Remember, all poly does is buy you time. As soon as it wears off (or if I see you first), you're in deep shit. I've taken mages higher level than I. Yes, they used poly. Yes, they tried to use frost nova. And yes, they tried to use blink. But I can counter those things. They don't have a counter for the talent points I spent in the shock line of spells. :)

[balut]

Man, last night I was running from Loch Modan to Dun Algaz with my Level 14 Night Elf Hunter, with "Track Humanoids" on to watch out for NPC Orcs along the path. Just as I exit one of the tunnels into the Wetlands area, 3 blips show up really quickly headed in my direction, followed by visual sighting of 3 level 20-30 Horde guys, a Tauren Shaman, Orc Warrior, and something Rogue. I managed to hit the Tauren with one Concussive shot, backed up, had my next two shots deflected, and died in about one hit.

It's pretty cool anyway, because I didn't lose XP and items didn't degrade when I got back to my body, plus it did add a nice surprise and future tension whenever I cross that area again.

Afterwards, I agreed to a few duels with some Gnomes back in town, just to see how I'd handle a straight-up PvP situation, and managed to take down a level 13 Gnome Mage, but lost to a level 19 Gnome Mage. My Concussive Shot stunned the level 13 guy for a few seconds, allowing me to fire off a poison shot and critical with a regular shot as well; he managed to freeze me for a few seconds, but by then it was too late - as soon as I thawed, I charged him and killed him with one Raptor Strike.

The level 19 guy just polymorphed me right off the bat, and as soon as I reverted, I was frozen to the spot and ate a few fireball thingies. I managed to get off 2 shots with my rifle before I died in that one.

[jafd]

I don't think it's all that relevant to talk about PvP balance in a 1:1 situation.

It's a multiplayer game. Team vs. team is obviously a richer, more enjoyable experience. If it were up to me, a level 1 Mage would be able to beat any melee one on one... because, it's magic.

Obviously that's not workable. At any rate, Polymorph might seem like the shit when there's only one assailant, but facing a party, changing one person into a sheep (who then heals up to 100% almost immediately) while four others bear down on you with their hair on fire... well, whatever. The mage had better have more rabbits to pull out of that there hat.

[Kunikos]

It is good, but blink is an insta-cast spell. They can blink far enough away so that they are hard to get to before they cast polymorph on you. Once they cast poly on you, it's pretty much game over.

Considering polymorph causes your healing rate to skyrocket, I find this unlikely... I'm playing a mage right now in the low levels and polymorph is only useful to get rid of a second attacker for a while and to focus on the other attacker. I haven't used it in PvP, but in PvE the poly spell basically will end up healing all damage and if you cast another damage spell it will cancel the poly early. Also, the instant fire DD Fire Blast seems to cancel Frost Nova's root.

[Mark Asher]

It is good, but blink is an insta-cast spell. They can blink far enough away so that they are hard to get to before they cast polymorph on you. Once they cast poly on you, it's pretty much game over.

Considering polymorph causes your healing rate to skyrocket, I find this unlikely... I'm playing a mage right now in the low levels and polymorph is only useful to get rid of a second attacker for a while and to focus on the other attacker. I haven't used it in PvP, but in PvE the poly spell basically will end up healing all damage and if you cast another damage spell it will cancel the poly early. Also, the instant fire DD Fire Blast seems to cancel Frost Nova's root.

What poly does is allow you get to max health and mana and get max distance. A mage under those conditions is hard to beat because he can lay on so much damage.

At one time in beta mages were gods because they had invisibility. This allowed them to set up their attacks very efficiently. They'd hit you by surprise with a pyroblast crit at maximum distance. It was tough to counter this because they'd hit you with at least a couple of more spells as you'd run toward them.

More or less, that situation has returned with blink and poly. They will hit you while you are helpless in sheep form at max distance with their most powerful nuke and follow it up with a couple of more spells. Even if you get to them blink will have been refreshed by then and they can blink away.

I'm not saying they're unbeatable, but one on one they are very tough now.

[Kunikos]

False. Wait until you start running into competent Shaman. You might be agreeing with Trodknee real quick. Remember, all poly does is buy you time. As soon as it wears off (or if I see you first), you're in deep shit. I've taken mages higher level than I. Yes, they used poly. Yes, they tried to use frost nova. And yes, they tried to use blink. But I can counter those things. They don't have a counter for the talent points I spent in the shock line of spells. :)

I got the sense from the forum postings that the Shaman class is the first in line to get nerfed... they aren't really on par with the Alliance Paladin in terms of overall power and are extremely versatile. I found it very easy to just chain kill enemies without resting at all, and my mage has a lot more downtime. The Shaman enjoys a disrupting DD, several DoT's, leather armor and decent melee, melee weapon buffs w/ some elemental additions, many different types of totems including healing totem, fire blast totem, which can be mixed so you can slap down more than one. A mage by comparison is very boring... A shaman can do this:

Prep by casting lightning shield and frost on your mace.

Slap down earthbind totem, fall back some distance away.

Slap down fire blast totem.

Nuke with shock DD to disrupt spell (either before or after totems are placed, depending on what enemy is doing) and do dmg

If the enemy removes the totems by melee, drop another slow totem and fall back and proceed to nuke a few more times. Drop another fire blast totem or perhaps a fire nova totem if you think they will engage quickly.

This is all without even passing lvl 20... if the mage got hit with your shock then their line of spells will be disabled for a short while. This is bad for a mage who focuses their talents on say, fireball or arcane missiles, for maxing their damage potential. You can sit and lightning bolt and whatever else. If you get poly'd you will get healed and you can down a mana potion when you come out before you shock them on their next spell.

[jafd]

I'm not saying they're unbeatable, but one on one they are very tough now.
Again, I have no problem with this. They're mages. If giving up armor and hit points doesn't result in a significant gain in power, why the hell bother?

I haven't had to deal with Shamen much yet, but I'm looking forward to Paladins getting nerfed down. It's just ridiculous how far they outclass Warriors. I don't think Warriors are in need of much fixing, seems okay to me. Then again, I never played in CB.

[Mark Asher]

Paladins are like cockroaches. They don't hurt a lot but they are hard to kill. I have to kill a paladin about three times before they die. I get them down to low health and they lay on hands or do some other kind of heal. I literally cannot kill them until I run them out of mana.

[Rywill]

Again, I have no problem with this. They're mages. If giving up armor and hit points doesn't result in a significant gain in power, why the hell bother?
Well, that doesn't make much sense if by "power" you mean overall power (rather than, say, damage-dealing ability). If a mage "gives up" armor and hit points and thereby gets enough magic to allow him to kill enemies with little or no risk, that's unbalanced. I would then look at the inverse of what you said: if keeping armor and hit points doesn't make you equal to a mage, why the hell bother? Everyone should just play a mage.

IOW, the ideal situation is that the mage and warrior are different, but roughly equal in power. The mage is more fragile but does much more damage. Assuming close levels, the winner of a mage-vs-warrior fight will be whoever uses the best tactics (including getting the drop on the enemy). Mark is saying that right now, the winner is almost always the mage. That's a problem, if it's true (I wouldn't know).

Of course, it's nearly impossible for a MMO to hit that ideal. Some classes are better soloers, some are better grouped. Balancing the classes to make them all useful for PvE (which Blizzard has done admirably, in my experience) sometimes means classes are gimped or extra-powerful in PvP.

[Euri]

Well, that doesn't make much sense if by "power" you mean overall power (rather than, say, damage-dealing ability). If a mage "gives up" armor and hit points and thereby gets enough magic to allow him to kill enemies with little or no risk, that's unbalanced. I would then look at the inverse of what you said: if keeping armor and hit points doesn't make you equal to a mage, why the hell bother? Everyone should just play a mage.

This is the same stupid line of reasoning that turned mildly enjoyable DAOC RVR into hopelessly retarded RVR.

I don't think you really understand how little armor and hitpoints we actually have. At level 20 my armor is in the low 300s and my hitpoints are in the low 500s. To kill myself I would have to land 6 lvl4 fireballs or 3 blizzards. That's about 20 seconds. Considering other classes have over 1000 hitpoints at that level, it would take me a minute or so assuming no resists or healing or potions. In that time, I would have to contend with my mana pool, which has enough for about 10 fireballs, and interrupts, and the fact that I am barely able to absorb damage at all.

From all reports, mages aren't super high damage dealers, being below rogues, and equal to several other classes in varying configurations. Some flexibility is what we apparently gain by losing hitpoints and armor.

[Rywill]

This is the same stupid line of reasoning that turned mildly enjoyable DAOC RVR into hopelessly retarded RVR.
Save your spittle for someone else. Like I said, I personally have no PvP experience and no idea whether mages were balanced or not. Mark said--contrary to what you are saying--that mages have a killer combo in blink + polymorph, and are essentially unbeatable in (at least 1 on 1) PvP. Jafd seemed to be saying that that was okay, because they "gave up armor and hit points." All I'm saying is that "giving up" armor and hitpoints is meaningless and unbalanced if, in exchange, you get spells so powerful that nobody can ever even attempt to strike you. (Incidentally, your post says nothing about that. It doesn't matter how many more hit points or armor points other classes have if, in fact, you have spells that effectively stop them from ever attacking you.)

Again, I'm not saying mages are balanced or unbalanced. I don't know. But when people respond to the "mages have a spell combo that prevents combat" complaint by saying "Yeah, but look how lousy their hitpoints and armor are!", that doesn't inspire confidence.

[Mark Asher]

The last week of beta a bunch of us dueled. We had a couple of level 60 rogues, one level 60 warrior, a level 60 priest, a level 60 warlock, a level 60 shaman, and a level 58 druid. We all took turns dueling a level 60 mage. Out of about 50 duels he lost once, to the warlock, though the mage beat him like a drum in other duels.

Against melees he just blinked and poly'd and it was game over. Against casters he could also counterspell. Hey priest and warlock, guess what? You can't fear me because I'm counterspelling it.

The mage just has a very tough arsenal of spells for one on one battles. Group PvP is of course different.

[Rob O'Boston]

The last week of beta a bunch of us dueled. We had a couple of level 60 rogues, one level 60 warrior, a level 60 priest, a level 60 warlock, a level 60 shaman, and a level 58 druid. We all took turns dueling a level 60 mage. Out of about 50 duels he lost once, to the warlock, though the mage beat him like a drum in other duels.

Against melees he just blinked and poly'd and it was game over. Against casters he could also counterspell. Hey priest and warlock, guess what? You can't fear me because I'm counterspelling it.

The mage just has a very tough arsenal of spells for one on one battles. Group PvP is of course different.

Its just like Fantasy real life. Do you think anyone in the Fellowship wanted to take on Gandalf? I don't think so.

[GuildBoss]

IMHO, PvP should be balanced based on team combat with a variety of classes, not 1v1. Traditionally, a mage should wipe the floor with a melee class at range and a melee should dice a mage up close. That's the way it is. If you're a melee and you're stupid enough to tangle (solo) with a mage at range then you deserve to get roasted! Next time, bring a friend...

That's not to say that superior tactics and/or the use of surroundings, items, element of suprise, etc. to counter an opponent's inherent advantages shouldn't be viable in a 1v1 scenario. Viable yet challenging...

[TrodKnee]

This is the same stupid line of reasoning that turned mildly enjoyable DAOC RVR into hopelessly retarded RVR.
Your post also reminds of early DAOC PvP stupidity. At the onset, Archer types were unstoppable killing machines due to one shot kills at long range while stealthed. There was an understandable outcry on the message boards. Despite the fact that things were clearly out of balance, you would see numerous posts from Archers claiming that they were not at all overpowered, and those that don't play Archers don't understand just how tough they have it, and if you didn't play an Archer to level 50 then you don't know anything so STFU NOOB.

Clearly, everyone's idea of fun PvP is the ability to completely own everyone else. Good luck Blizzard!

[Sidd_Budd]

Despite the fact that things were clearly out of balance, you would see numerous posts from Archers claiming that they were not at all overpowered, and those that don't play Archers don't understand just how tough they have it, and if you didn't play an Archer to level 50 then you don't know anything so STFU NOOB.

This is so true. Look at any MMO class boards -- 80% of classes will be complaining that they are underpowered, 10% actually are underpowered and don't even rant about it anymore because they have developed learned helplessness, and 10% will say "I don't think we have any glaring weaknesses -- we're probably average"

It will be this final group that is currently wiping the floor compared with other classes and are most likely to be nerfed. See blasters in early City of Heroes, enchanters & the dire charm ability in EverQuest, and archers/stealthers/smite clerics/savages at various points in time for Dark Ages of Camelot.

I'm predicting an uproar from shamans in WoW soon. Par for the course for those uncivilized Horde people :-)

[Malderi]

I played DAOC for about two years but haven't picked up WoW yet, wondering if you guys could answer some questions:

When you die, I believe you have to go back to your body. Are your items actually there a la EQ or is it just a way to avoid this spirit healer cost?

How does the contested area thing work? Is it kind of like DAOC's frontier zones, where there are safe areas and then PvP areas?

How much do items affect PvP? Levels I can understand, but I'm more referring to twinking than levels.

Has anyone tried any group PvP yet, and if so, how is it?

(And basically any other comparisons you could make between WoW and DAOC's systems would help. I've seen game mechanic discussions but I'm more curious about how PvP works.)

[HRose]

Original answers by HRose.
When you die, I believe you have to go back to your body. Are your items actually there a la EQ or is it just a way to avoid this spirit healer cost?
It's a way to return quickly to where you died so you can continue what you were doing before dying. Moving as a ghost is faster. The spirit healer cost exists just to avoid to transform death into a way to go quickly back to city.

How does the contested area thing work? Is it kind of like DAOC's frontier zones, where there are safe areas and then PvP areas?
There are areas under your faction control, areas under your opposite faction control and contested zone where noone controls them.

If the area is under your control an enemy player cannot attack you. But you can. When the attack is started your opponent can fight back obviously. If the area is an enemy area it happens the opposite. You cannot start an attack but you can be attacked.

In a contested area, instead, it's free for all. You can attack when you want, same for your opponent.

How much do items affect PvP? Levels I can understand, but I'm more referring to twinking than levels.
The levels don't affect PvP. The effect is really minimal. But you obviously have more hitpoints/skill/spells to use as you level. The equipment is everything. Items are level restricted and the most powerful items cannot be traded. This puts a limit on the twinking.

Has anyone tried any group PvP yet, and if so, how is it?
Fun. A lot. But there's no purpose/reward at the moment. Just fun gameplay.

(And basically any other comparisons you could make between WoW and DAOC's systems would help. I've seen game mechanic discussions but I'm more curious about how PvP works.)
Better not from me :)

[McBain]

Considering other classes have over 1000 hitpoints at that level

Uh, who has over 1000 HP at level 20? My warrior buddy has pretty insane equipment and he is just barely pushing 1000HP at 23. My Shaman has +19 stamina (63 total) from gear and is barely pushing 680 at 24. 500 hp at 20 ain't bad. But yeah, 300 AC does blow.

I don't think Shaman will get nerfed, really. We're good at a lot of things, but not that good. My heals suck, about 50% of my 900 AC comes from my shield (the one I'm going to dump when I get my 2-H talent next level), totems have 5 HP and don't move with you, etc. The range on my nukes is pathetic, my best weapon buff is the one that adds a shitload of threat. Can't use a moving buff on anyone but myself, and only get two of those... etc.

Also keep in mind that as a Shaman I have exactly zero escape skills. Zero. I don't really consider self-reincarnation an escape skill, since once you reincarnate you're likely to just get boned again. Ghost Wolf is probably the closest thing I've got, and that's not saying much.

[Rywill]

IMHO, PvP should be balanced based on team combat with a variety of classes, not 1v1. Traditionally, a mage should wipe the floor with a melee class at range and a melee should dice a mage up close.
I agree with that. What's interesting, though, is that Mark is saying the blink + polymorph combo allows a mage to make it so every combat starts at range, with the mage getting the first strike--for example, even if a warrior starts a battle right next to a mage and starts the combat using his best special attack (meaning the warrior should definitely win), the mage just blinks, polys, rests, goes to max range, and then cancels the poly by hitting the warrior with the mage's best special attack--in effect, he gets to start the whole encounter over whenever he wants to, and gets to start it in the way that puts him at maximum advantage.

When you die, I believe you have to go back to your body. Are your items actually there a la EQ or is it just a way to avoid this spirit healer cost?

How does the contested area thing work? Is it kind of like DAOC's frontier zones, where there are safe areas and then PvP areas?


I know HRose anwered these already, but I thought I'd toss in .02 just to make sure the answers are clear. When you die, you have three options:

1. If you have someone who can rez you, you get rezzed. You come back to life standing next to the rezzer (not right where your body was) with all of your equipment and XP intact. I believe you have rez sickness for a short period (although I don't remember having sickness when I was rezzed now that I think about it, so maybe this was removed). Your equipment takes a small durability hit because you were killed. In short, there's really no penalty at all--just a tiny money hit.

2. If there's nobody to rez you, you reappear in the nearest graveyard as a ghost. You can then run back to your body in ghost-form. Ghosts move faster than normal and cannot interact with the environment, so you can't get attacked while you're running back. Like a rez, you can "reincarnate" once you get close to your body but don't have to be in the exact same spot (maybe 20-30 feet away or so). You revive with all your XP and no rez sickness. Your items take a small durability hit because you were killed. In the early levels, at least, the graveyards are plentiful and CR runs are usually only a minute or so. And, unlike other games, they're risk-free (can't get killed again while running to your corpse). In short, the penalty here is time--about a minute or so, depending. Plus the tiny money hit.

3. If you reappear as a ghost but for some reason can't, or don't want to, run to your body, you can have the Spirit Healer NPC (there's one in every graveyard) rez you. You will reappear immediately, right there in the graveyard, with all your items and XP. All your items take a 25% durability hit, which can be expensive especially as your level increases. I believe you have rez sickness if you come back this way. The penalty here, obviously, is the significant money hit, so this is best avoided. I've only done it once (I was running across a high-level area, got killed, and my ghost appeared at a graveyard that was much further along my route, so I figured it was worth the cost to save time and aggravation).

As for PvP, it works differently on PvP vs. PvE servers. On a PvP server, there are three kinds of territory: Horde, Alliance, and Contested. In your own territory, enemy players cannot initiate hostilities against you. If you do anything hostile (including aiding another player who is fighting the enemy players), you are flagged PvP and enemies can attack you, I believe for a set period of time. In other words, home territory is a safe zone where enemy players can appear, but can't hurt you unless you take action against them first. In contested territory, both sides are full-on PvP and can attack each other at will. It seems like most of the mid and high-level zones are contested. In enemy territory, conditions are the reverse of friendly territory: enemy players can attack you, but you can only attack them in self-defense. You can attack any NPCs, of course, including town and quest-giving NPCs. Each side gets some (higher-level) quests that require them to go into enemy territory and kill specific NPCs there, which encourages the "home team" to defend in PvP.

I have no experience on a PvE server, but my understanding is that there is no PvP (other than duels) in the regular gameworld. There are some "battle zones," similar to the frontiers in DAOC, where players can go if they want to try free-for-all PvP. But most of the game zones are non-PvP, and you could presumably advance through the whole game without ever doing PvP (this is not true on the PvP servers, where all of the mid-high level zones are "contested" free-for-all PvP zones, as nearly as I can tell).

[Gary Whitta]

Found myself on the wrong side of the PvP fun equation last night. I was headed toward Southshore (contested zone) when I stumbled upon a whole horde of, um, horde. I was dispatched pretty quickly.

There was a whole ton of them there and it looked like they were in for the long haul, so I decided not to return to my body where it fell because they would almost certainly be camping it. My ghost popped up in the Southshore graveyard and since that's where I was headed anyway I figured I'd take the cash/durability/sickness hit and use the Spirit Healer.

It was at this point that I realized that the horde group had assigned an undead shaman (Level 44!!!!!!!) to camp the graveyard and instantly kill anyone who rezzed there. I was spawn-killed about three times before I finally managed to get away. That was NOT fun.

[GuildBoss]

It was at this point that I realized that the horde group had assigned an undead shaman (Level 44!!!!!!!) to camp the graveyard and instantly kill anyone who rezzed there. I was spawn-killed about three times before I finally managed to get away. That was NOT fun.

Heh, pretty lame but it happens. In my experience (in other PvP games, not in WoW yet), however, the fun parts far outweighed the lame.

I'm really getting antsy now about WoW. Probably gonna pick it up over the weekend. Just gotta figure out which side/class to play. :)

[Rywill]

It was at this point that I realized that the horde group had assigned an undead shaman (Level 44!!!!!!!) to camp the graveyard and instantly kill anyone who rezzed there. I was spawn-killed about three times before I finally managed to get away. That was NOT fun.
That kind of thing is just fucking lame. There should be PvP-immunity on respawn for a short period. This sort of thing has been a problem in dozens of games (particularly MP shooters), I don't know why devs keep failing to anticipate it.

[mouselock]

It was at this point that I realized that the horde group had assigned an undead shaman (Level 44!!!!!!!) to camp the graveyard and instantly kill anyone who rezzed there. I was spawn-killed about three times before I finally managed to get away. That was NOT fun.
That kind of thing is just fucking lame. There should be PvP-immunity on respawn for a short period. This sort of thing has been a problem in dozens of games (particularly MP shooters), I don't know why devs keep failing to anticipate it.

PvP immunity radius at spirit healers seems like a reasonable solution to get around the whole immunity rush crap (which was an issue in DAoC IIRC) instead.

Of course, the first thing Blizzard needs to fix is apparently PvP in Moonglade. Poor druids have to go there at level 10 for their bear form, and the zone, despite everything indicating it should be a peaceful place (including NPC/guard text, the presence of both Horde and Alliance NPCs in one place, etc), there's no in game mechanic to actually force or even encourage that.

[Munky]

Ghosts move faster than normal and cannot interact with the environment, so you can't get attacked while you're running back. [...] And, unlike other games, they're risk-free (can't get killed again while running to your corpse).
I have not encountered any as yet, but I have been assured by people with much more experience than I that there are monsters that can see you in ghost form and will kill you.

[Gary Whitta]

Ghosts move faster than normal and cannot interact with the environment, so you can't get attacked while you're running back. [...] And, unlike other games, they're risk-free (can't get killed again while running to your corpse).
I have not encountered any as yet, but I have been assured by people with much more experience than I that there are monsters that can see you in ghost form and will kill you.
That's never happened to me, not in 64 levels of combined beta and retail play. Never even heard of it.

[jeffd]

That's never happened to me, not in 64 levels of combined beta and retail play. Never even heard of it.

It's out there. It's even on the official site somewhere in a FAQ. "Why was I killed while in Ghost form...?"

JD

[VegasRobb]

It was at this point that I realized that the horde group had assigned an undead shaman (Level 44!!!!!!!) to camp the graveyard and instantly kill anyone who rezzed there. I was spawn-killed about three times before I finally managed to get away. That was NOT fun.

Heh, pretty lame but it happens. In my experience (in other PvP games, not in WoW yet), however, the fun parts far outweighed the lame.

I'm really getting antsy now about WoW. Probably gonna pick it up over the weekend. Just gotta figure out which side/class to play. :)

See in EQ1, this was the norm on Sullon Zek. High levels would regularly spend time spreading grief in the newbie areas for the sole reason of driving people off. Lower population for the other team meant less competition. And what better place to strike than at the roots. I can't imagine WoW would be any different, invest the time punishing newbies and making their lives miserable and hopefully they'll move, quit, go away or join you.

[Ephraim]

I'm part of a PvP-oriented multi-game guild that tries to defend the weak and helpless in all the MMORPGs we play.

We live for the nasty situations as described. We have, in the past and in other games, organized safe areas for newbies to level in, patrols of zones, and of course, punitative expeditions into enemy territory to deter enemy anti-social behaviour.

So, having read through this thread, I'm glad my guild picked a WoW PvP server. It sounds as if we'll be busy. I haven't picked up WoW yet, but all this PvP talk has enticed me to join my guild's contigent.

Really, we just like to have a good reason for our PvP, and the 'griefers' who do things like camping newbie areas provide us with that.

We liken the whole MMORPG PvP scene to wolves, sheep, and sheepdogs. The majority of players are sheep. Even the ones on PvP servers. They just want to level in peace, get their uber loot, and partake in PvP only when they're seeking a thrill. Wolves, on the other hand, love to cause woe and grief. They want to pick on the sheep, and the more unbalanced the fight and irritating to the victim they can be, the better. Then there are the sheepdogs (e.g. the Defenders of Order, my guild) who like the thrill of PvP and like 'defending the meek'. I know there are other guilds out there with similar mindsets. We like feeling "righteous", I guess.

If things are going as I've seen in other PvP environments, the first generation of wolves is starting to prey on the sheep, but the sheepdogs (who work in bigger groups) aren't levelled up yet, so they're not on duty. Give them time.

/Eph

[Rob O'Boston]

I'm part of a PvP-oriented multi-game guild that tries to defend the weak and helpless in all the MMORPGs we play.

We live for the nasty situations as described. We have, in the past and in other games, organized safe areas for newbies to level in, patrols of zones, and of course, punitative expeditions into enemy territory to deter enemy anti-social behaviour.

So, having read through this thread, I'm glad my guild picked a WoW PvP server. It sounds as if we'll be busy. I haven't picked up WoW yet, but all this PvP talk has enticed me to join my guild's contigent.

Really, we just like to have a good reason for our PvP, and the 'griefers' who do things like camping newbie areas provide us with that.

We liken the whole MMORPG PvP scene to wolves, sheep, and sheepdogs. The majority of players are sheep. Even the ones on PvP servers. They just want to level in peace, get their uber loot, and partake in PvP only when they're seeking a thrill. Wolves, on the other hand, love to cause woe and grief. They want to pick on the sheep, and the more unbalanced the fight and irritating to the victim they can be, the better. Then there are the sheepdogs (e.g. the Defenders of Order, my guild) who like the thrill of PvP and like 'defending the meek'. I know there are other guilds out there with similar mindsets. We like feeling "righteous", I guess.

If things are going as I've seen in other PvP environments, the first generation of wolves is starting to prey on the sheep, but the sheepdogs (who work in bigger groups) aren't levelled up yet, so they're not on duty. Give them time.

/Eph


So which server did you guys pick? I'd like to know where the sheepdogs are working.

-Bah Ram Ewe

[Talisker]

I'm part of a PvP-oriented multi-game guild that tries to defend the weak and helpless in all the MMORPGs we play.

We live for the nasty situations as described. We have, in the past and in other games, organized safe areas for newbies to level in, patrols of zones, and of course, punitative expeditions into enemy territory to deter enemy anti-social behaviour.
OK, now *that* sounds fun. Where're you guys at?

[GuildBoss]

It was at this point that I realized that the horde group had assigned an undead shaman (Level 44!!!!!!!) to camp the graveyard and instantly kill anyone who rezzed there. I was spawn-killed about three times before I finally managed to get away. That was NOT fun.

Heh, pretty lame but it happens. In my experience (in other PvP games, not in WoW yet), however, the fun parts far outweighed the lame.

I'm really getting antsy now about WoW. Probably gonna pick it up over the weekend. Just gotta figure out which side/class to play. :)

See in EQ1, this was the norm on Sullon Zek. High levels would regularly spend time spreading grief in the newbie areas for the sole reason of driving people off. Lower population for the other team meant less competition. And what better place to strike than at the roots. I can't imagine WoW would be any different, invest the time punishing newbies and making their lives miserable and hopefully they'll move, quit, go away or join you.

I was on SZ from the get-go and when high levels came to the newbie areas we'd just call in a few of our own. Homeland security *should* be a priority, IMHO.

As for WOW, it sounds like the newbie areas are safe zones anyway...something that SZ never had.

[GuildBoss]

I'm part of a PvP-oriented multi-game guild that tries to defend the weak and helpless in all the MMORPGs we play.

We live for the nasty situations as described. We have, in the past and in other games, organized safe areas for newbies to level in, patrols of zones, and of course, punitative expeditions into enemy territory to deter enemy anti-social behaviour.


Sounds like my old guild. What server are you guys on (in WOW)? ;)

[Gunmetal]

Of course, the first thing Blizzard needs to fix is apparently PvP in Moonglade. Poor druids have to go there at level 10 for their bear form, and the zone, despite everything indicating it should be a peaceful place (including NPC/guard text, the presence of both Horde and Alliance NPCs in one place, etc), there's no in game mechanic to actually force or even encourage that.
D'oh! I just started a Druid on the PvP server Lightning's Blade. I'll have to.... uh... watch out... for it? :(

[Sidd_Budd]

D'oh! I just started a Druid on the PvP server Lightning's Blade. I'll have to.... uh... watch out... for it? :(
It's not too bad right now -- I've gone to Moonglade 3 times and only been ganked once. Most of the high-level Night Elf druids have adopted a policy of porting to Moonglade to help lower-level folks if necessary; you can use the /who command to sort by class & level and send folks a tell explaining the situation. I assume Tauren have a similar arrangement on the Horde side.

I could see it being a problem when more of the server is high-level & may not want to leave a raid to help defend against griefers. I see it as a neat feature of the druid class right now, but if the class becomes perceived as weak in PvP, it may be an additional pain in the butt that drives people away from the class.

[Malderi]

Thanks for the answers, guys, but a few more specific ones after reading up on WoW some more.

Do hunters have to carry ammo for their ranged weapons, which is depleted? This was one of the main things that turned me off from DAOC's Ranger, which was otherwise the exact class I liked to play. But I had to be a very weak tank in groups (assuming I got one), so I left.

I see some mage spells require reagants. That is one of my biggest pet peeves (I'm normally a mage-type, so the magic system is a major part of whether I play or not.). How bad are the reageants for spells? Like, how many could you carry, are they a low cost, etc.?

Also - do you have to buy spells like in EQ, or is there a training system in place (I know about talents, but that doesn't seem to cover all of them) like DAOC to gain spells?

How is the money situation, economywise? In DAOC it was bad; early levels you couldn't buy anything and at higher levels you could buy just about anything aside from the really uber gear. Is the curve more even in WoW?

Any other enlightenments (no pun intended) on the magic system and how it compares to other games would be wonderful. Thanks, guys, for all the help & answers.

-Malderi

(Oh, and what server are those Defenders of Order on? I'd like to join up with you guys, or at least benefit from your services for a little while.)

[Rywill]

"You're the weak, and I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm trying, I'm trying real hard, to be the shepherd."

[Euri]

This is the same stupid line of reasoning that turned mildly enjoyable DAOC RVR into hopelessly retarded RVR.
Save your spittle for someone else. Like I said, I personally have no PvP experience and no idea whether mages were balanced or not.

Then say so at the outset.
Mark said--contrary to what you are saying--that mages have a killer combo in blink + polymorph, and are essentially unbeatable in (at least 1 on 1) PvP.

Blink has a cooldown time, I think it's 25 seconds. I don't use it often. Polymorph, link any spell, must be channeled and must not be resisted.

As you go up in levels people have more resists so everything a mage does is less efficient. There is no way to perfect balance at each level, but it seems to me now that it's close enough.
Jafd seemed to be saying that that was okay, because they "gave up armor and hit points." All I'm saying is that "giving up" armor and hitpoints is meaningless and unbalanced if, in exchange, you get spells so powerful that nobody can ever even attempt to strike you.

Which isn't what happens.

(Incidentally, your post says nothing about that. It doesn't matter how many more hit points or armor points other classes have if, in fact, you have spells that effectively stop them from ever attacking you.)

Because when somebody engages in a conversation about a specific subject I expect at least SOME knowledge about the subject. I don't even bother looking at the Halflife/Halo threads and the like because I don't know anything about them. You have to not rely on hearsay viewed through a badly thought out lens. In this case, Marks. Polymorph and Blink are not that powerful. They are useful, but .. well they kind of need to be. Mages have no bodily defense or offense. Everything they do is wrapped in up a spell. This include an AE root with a tiny bit of damage (frost nova) which has a 25 second cooldown. I have a spell which converst 120 damage against me into a 240 point mana drain (after 80ish mana casting the spell) and spells which mitigate fire/ice, and a spell which mitigates all spells against me, both magic and healing.

Because a mage can't stand against ANYONE bodily, they have to rely on tricks, and the idea that any of these tricks alone or in totality is overpowering is laughably stupid.

So, we get back to the first line in my post. Posts like yours turned okay RVR in DAOC into hopelessly retarded RVR. Resists to spells were so high landing anything was nearly impossible. In fact, there were methods of attaining 100% resist in *everything* Over time, things became increasingly imbalanced. They started decently, with the exception of archers and AE healer stuns, but in the end stealth classes and high hp/plate armor classes were the only people capable of surviving through anything at all. All because people bitched and only wanted the best for their own class at the expense of all others, or bitched because they had heard their friend Gary talking to their friend Michael who had heard from cousin Jane that Class X was Overpowered, even though they had no actual experience with the class or whatever ability it was that was screwing things up.


Though to be completely intellectually honest, it wasn't JUST that which caused the huge horrible breaks. Mythic believed that RVR capabilities could be part of the overall balance of a class during PVE, which is just so stupid it's hard to believe they went down that path. Classes need to be individually balanced across all aspects of play, not hopeless at some, godlike at others (archers).

Again, I'm not saying mages are balanced or unbalanced. I don't know. But when people respond to the "mages have a spell combo that prevents combat" complaint by saying "Yeah, but look how lousy their hitpoints and armor are!", that doesn't inspire confidence.

I think it's just the assumption that everyone reading and responding knows all the pertinent details. No, low hitpoints and armor won't be any drawback if I can fire off a 1000000 point damage spell.. but just keep in mind that all the spells a mage has are there because a mage is bodily incapable of inflicting or absorbing damage or escaping.

[balut]

Do hunters have to carry ammo for their ranged weapons, which is depleted? This was one of the main things that turned me off from DAOC's Ranger, which was otherwise the exact class I liked to play. But I had to be a very weak tank in groups (assuming I got one), so I left.


Hunters require ammo for their weapons, but they're very cheap and plentiful. Bow hunters start with an 8-slot quiver, and Gun hunters get an 8-slot ammo pouch. Each slot can hold a stack of 200 arrows/bullets, and it's as cheap as 50-copper for 200 count of the first upgrade arrows/bullets. I think the basic shot is like 5-copper for 200.

[Malderi]

How much space do those take up and how fast are they depleted?

In DAOC in some areas that were really hard to get to and out of, my ranger just had to tank. I could carry ammo with me for pulling, but that's the difference of one arrow per mob versus 5-6. Basically, assuming an average soloing/group, about how long could I stay out? Is it enough that most hunters use their bow in groups, even in far away spots? Or do they switch to melee?

[Euri]

Thanks for the answers, guys, but a few more specific ones after reading up on WoW some more.

Do hunters have to carry ammo for their ranged weapons, which is depleted? This was one of the main things that turned me off from DAOC's Ranger, which was otherwise the exact class I liked to play. But I had to be a very weak tank in groups (assuming I got one), so I left.

Guns and Bows both require ammo. I believe you get them pretty cheap in stacks of 200, and there are only a tiny few quality differences.

I see some mage spells require reagants. That is one of my biggest pet peeves (I'm normally a mage-type, so the magic system is a major part of whether I play or not.). How bad are the reageants for spells? Like, how many could you carry, are they a low cost, etc.?

At level 21 I have two spells which require a reagent. One is called Safe Fall which makes me float down for 30 seconds so I don't die from falling off a cliff or whatever. It requires a light feather, which drop off a lot of things. The other .. well others are portal spells. One takes me to the Undercity and one takes me to Orgrimmar. The spell cost 10s, which is not a HUGE amoutn, but also not a trifling amount at my level. I don't use the spells often because I need money for other things.

Shaman ressurection also costs a 20s reagent. You can carry them in stacks of 5 or 20, I don't know which because I've never bought that many, and buy them in most places.

Also - do you have to buy spells like in EQ, or is there a training system in place (I know about talents, but that doesn't seem to cover all of them) like DAOC to gain spells?

You buy spells from trainers. They cost quite a bit, but you can get them anywhere. Just go to the trainer, highlight and buy. They train instantly. You have to do this every other level.

How is the money situation, economywise? In DAOC it was bad; early levels you couldn't buy anything and at higher levels you could buy just about anything aside from the really uber gear. Is the curve more even in WoW?

There isn't really much of an economy yet. It's small, and growing, I'll let you know in a few months.

Any other enlightenments (no pun intended) on the magic system and how it compares to other games would be wonderful. Thanks, guys, for all the help & answers.

Okay all spells are listed in a generic skill/spellbook that is not something you physically have, but it just part of your general character.

Each spell is cast by targetting something or clicking. If it's a heal or a buff you can click it and then click the person you want to cast it on.

Spells all have a specific casting time, usually a second or two. This is listed clearly. When you cast, you get a little cast bar that drains. If you get hit during this casting you get a little more time added onto the cast. So if the spell is 3 seconds to cast, and I get hit a couple times, it could wind up taking 4 or 5 seconds to cast. If I take a step it interrupts automatically.

Some of my spells are also all channeling. That is, something happens DURING the cast and continues to happen while I'm casting it, for a set amount of time. The spell blizzard pelts everything with icey death from above, takes 5 seconds or so to complete. If I get hit during this it usually interrupts me instantly, you have only a small chance of channeling through a hit.

The resist system is like most others. You have a numerical amount of resists, at lower levels I have met no resists on anything at all. Some creatures too high (4 levels+) I can't land on at all, or very rarely. Some few mobs are resistant to a lot of stuff, but you rarely encounter them.

I have a few spells which are instant casts. My AE root, a fire damage spell, and my buffs are all isntant cast. I can do those while running. In fact, AE rooting while running is how I often get away from things. Shamans also hvae totems which snare stuff which are so nice for running away. I have a buff which gives me higher intelligence (more mana), one which will make any incoming damage come out of my mana pool, one which dampens magic being thrown at me, one which absorbs fire, and one which absorbs cold. I also have a reverse of dampen (amplify) which makes anyone healing you heal for more, or anyone casting at you hurt you for more.

Damage spells often carry a 2-for. My fire damage spells have a small damage over time component, and my cold spells snare. I also have an ice shield on my body. If something hits it, there is a chance they will be snared and slowed. Meaning they will walk more slowly and hit more slowly.

Mana also regenerates very quickly. If I am drinking, 0 mana to 1100 (my max) is 11 seconds. 100 mana a second sitting and drinking =d

[Euri]

Do hunters have to carry ammo for their ranged weapons, which is depleted? This was one of the main things that turned me off from DAOC's Ranger, which was otherwise the exact class I liked to play. But I had to be a very weak tank in groups (assuming I got one), so I left.


Hunters require ammo for their weapons, but they're very cheap and plentiful. Bow hunters start with an 8-slot quiver, and Gun hunters get an 8-slot ammo pouch. Each slot can hold a stack of 200 arrows/bullets, and it's as cheap as 50-copper for 200 count of the first upgrade arrows/bullets. I think the basic shot is like 5-copper for 200.

Hunters are very good at hand to hand melee. They get swords, Matt Gallant uses stupid lookign CLAWS. I notice him firing his gun (2-3 shots) and then meleeing. Dunno what he does solo. He has a pet so I assume it tanks while he shoots.

[Euri]

Also, there are a lot of different KINDS of damage spells mages get:

A fire bolt which also does a little damage over time. Huge range that you can increase. (fireball)

A channeled missile spell with several shots. My current one does 4 or 5 40ishmax damage bolts. You can't get hit during this or they stop coming out.

An ice bolt which has a smaller range, does less damage, but also snares. (frostbolt)

An instant cast fire damage spell which a 15 second recast, lower damage. (fire blast)

An instant AE ice root which does a little damage. (frost nova)

A low cast time point blank AE.(arcane explosion)

A ground target low cast time AE. (flamestrike)

A ground target channeled AE. You can't get hit during this or it stops. (blizzard)

[Lenkenobi]

I think I'm going to like PvP.
Level based PvP sucks. Basically, you were caught totally unaware and unprepared by a character that was built to slice wimpy mages like you to shreds, but by virtue of catassing a few more hours than your attacker you were able to win easily. This is your idea of fun? Maybe you should take a trip to your local preschool and slap some small children around. Let's wait until you are repeatedly raped by gangs of hardcore PvPers many levels above you before you decide that "I WIN!" buttons are a good time.

For those of us who actually understand what good PvP is supposed to be like, this is yet another indicator that WoW is still a carebear game, even on the so called PvP servers.

Who peed in your coffee today? If someone had a good PVP experience with the game, why do you need to mock him and spew cynicism?

I am sorry that every game that you have ever played has sucked because they failed to pull that stick out of your ass. But don't take it out on a harmless post about someone having a good time with a video game.

[Euri]

Ah, just ignore him. Anyone that uses the term carebear in context of PVP is not somebody worth talking too. There are a large amount of people out there that hate the idea of PVP not being based entirely on the talent of the player. I suggest those people play shooter games, and avoid RPGs, where it wouldn't make any sense for somebody to go get their very first weapon and instantly be able to take on even the most powerful being in the world.

[Rywill]

Save your spittle for someone else. Like I said, I personally have no PvP experience and no idea whether mages were balanced or not.

Then say so at the outset.
I did, but I guess you didn't read it.

All I'm saying is that "giving up" armor and hitpoints is meaningless and unbalanced if, in exchange, you get spells so powerful that nobody can ever even attempt to strike you.

Which isn't what happens.
I wouldn't know, like I said. Take it up with Mark. I was responding to jafd, who apparently conceded that that IS what happens, but said it was okay because Mages have low armor and hit points. If you want to get into a seprate argument about whether blink/poly is really that good or not, you'll have to have it with some other poster. Although again, it seems weird that if it ISN'T that good, you didn't just say so in your first post, rather than duplicating jafd's argument that a mage's low armor and hit points balance it out.

I'm really sorry you're so unbearably bitter about the way you got burned in DAOC. Maybe you could start a separate thread about that.

[Kunikos]

FYI you can't eat or drink while you have an enemy polymorphed in the current version. It considers you to be "in combat" still and you can't use food or drink during those times.

[TrodKnee]

Ah, just ignore him. Anyone that uses the term carebear in context of PVP is not somebody worth talking too. There are a large amount of people out there that hate the idea of PVP not being based entirely on the talent of the player. I suggest those people play shooter games, and avoid RPGs, where it wouldn't make any sense for somebody to go get their very first weapon and instantly be able to take on even the most powerful being in the world.
Why must you limpwrists totally exaggerate to try to dismiss a simple point? A warrior type takes a few free swipes at a wimpy mage only a few levels higher and the mage just shrugs it off. We aren't talking about a Level 1 pissbucket boy taking on Odin with a rusty fork. This is a clear sign of imbalance, and as soon as you find yourself on the other side of the equation you will be whining like a little schoolgirl. NERF BAT INCOMING!

Time and time again in these games the melee classes are screwed over by magic users in PvP. Time and time again, the overpowered mages claim that there is no imbalance and everything is fine and if you only realized just how hard it is to find a good pedicurist then you would understand that the ability to utterly annihilate armies of sword wielding barbarians with a mumble and a wiggly finger is such a terrible cross to bear...

[Gary Whitta]

Euri, when/how/where did you acquire your portal spells? I have a lvl26 Mage but have yet to encounter any spells that allow me to teleport to different cities.

[Gary Whitta]

Why must you limpwrists totally exaggerate to try to dismiss a simple point?
I think perhaps because of the manner in which you attempted to make it. If you want to talk about game imbalance, that's great. But by calling people "catass" and talking nonsense about slapping around kids in a schoolyard and so forth, you do your own argument a disservice by couching it in what came across as an immature attack.

[Mark Asher]

FYI you can't eat or drink while you have an enemy polymorphed in the current version. It considers you to be "in combat" still and you can't use food or drink during those times.

At the end of beta you could still eat and drink if it was a PvP encounter. You have to wait 5-6 seconds to go out of combat mode and then you can do it.

[Mark Asher]

Euri, when/how/where did you acquire your portal spells? I have a lvl26 Mage but have yet to encounter any spells that allow me to teleport to different cities.

There should be portal trainers near the mage trainers. I know they are next to the ones in the major cities.

[Euri]

I wouldn't know, like I said.

Then stop chiming in and repeating points that don't make any sense. You're wrong and that's that.

Why must you limpwrists totally exaggerate to try to dismiss a simple point?

Because I have never encountered and instance where I have heard the term "carebear" not attached to a person that gets off on mindless game killings.

A warrior type takes a few free swipes at a wimpy mage only a few levels higher and the mage just shrugs it off.

Which is how it should be. Nobody, ever, should be able to kill a similarly levelled opponent without recourse. If it takes fewer than 3 or 4 hits to kill a PC, something is terribly broken and needs to be fixed immediately. A sword or a mallet is not the Supreme Ultimate Weapon of Death. We all have tools to mitigate them, just as you do. Now explain to me why I can throw a ball of FIRE at you, and you can not be burned, and we'll talk.

Time and time again in these games the melee classes are screwed over by magic users in PvP.

In EQ and DAOC the opposite is true. Magic users are at the mercy of melee players with their vastly superior hitpoints and armor and avoidance capabilities. I was the highest enchanter on Merlin for quite a damn while, and I believe the third or fourth to hit 50, I had to fight against one of the best EQ guilds of all time (my former, Conquest) and for a long while I could hold my own against them. As time passed, I just couldn't anymore. I couldn't land ANYTHING on ANYBODY, my gimpy pet died immediately, I couldn't go anywhere or do anything but stay behind a fucking gate and AE in the vain hope that I kill or harm the invading hordes trying to break it down. That was ALL I could do in pvp, and it really wasn't very much. Hell, even Spiritmasters could at least send their pets through walls. I couldn't!

Time and time again, the overpowered mages claim that there is no imbalance and everything is fine and if you only realized just how hard it is to find a good pedicurist then you would understand that the ability to utterly annihilate armies of sword wielding barbarians with a mumble and a wiggly finger is such a terrible cross to bear...

God just wait until you're higher level and all your gear has resists. You'll resist everything cast on you.

[TrodKnee]

Why must you limpwrists totally exaggerate to try to dismiss a simple point?
I think perhaps because of the manner in which you attempted to make it. If you want to talk about game imbalance, that's great. But by calling people "catass" and talking nonsense about slapping around kids in a schoolyard and so forth, you do your own argument a disservice by couching it in what came across as an immature attack.
You're right, but something just sets me off about players gloating over the fact they are overpowered...even if they don't mean to gloat and are doing it out of naivete. After you have spent some time playing these games you are bound to experience things from the flip side, then you will have a better idea where I am coming from.

Also...I post on message boards.

[Euri]

Euri, when/how/where did you acquire your portal spells? I have a lvl26 Mage but have yet to encounter any spells that allow me to teleport to different cities.

Find the "portal trainer"

The one in Orgrimmar is above where all the mages stand in the Valley of Spirit (or whatever that one above Strength is) and the one in the Undercity is on the first stairway up where the mage trainers are. I don't remember where the one in thunder bluff is, but you won't be able to get that one until 30. At 40 we also get group portals to the two big cities, and at 50 you can get one to Thunder Bluff or Darnassus.

[TrodKnee]

Which is how it should be. Nobody, ever, should be able to kill a similarly levelled opponent without recourse.
The recourse is the mages ability to stop that similarly levelled warrior in his tracks before he can get close enough to slice the mage to shreds. By your terms, the warrior would never have a chance. If DAOC hadn't made a similar mistake from the onset, they wouldn't have had to overcompensate by giving warriors the bandaid fixes (extreme resistances, immunity to crowd control, etc.) that resulted in your mage becoming a complete gimp. So which would you prefer - for a warrior to be able to take out a mage in a few swings if he gets close, or for the warrior to be able to resist or be immune to your attacks? One way or another, the warrior has to have a chance to win, or else everyone will just play mages.

[Rywill]

Then stop chiming in and repeating points that don't make any sense. You're wrong and that's that.
No no, you're repeating points that don't make any sense. You're wrong and that's that! This is awesome. Let me cut to the chase: you're wrong times infinity.

[mouselock]

Which is how it should be. Nobody, ever, should be able to kill a similarly levelled opponent without recourse.
So which would you prefer - for a warrior to be able to take out a mage in a few swings if he gets close, or for the warrior to be able to resist or be immune to your attacks? One way or another, the warrior has to have a chance to win, or else everyone will just play mages.

Clearly the ideal is for the situations you describe to normally be fatal, but when it's a good warrior vs. an exceptional mage, for the mage to be able to utilize superior tactics for the win.

The point being made here is that if you die before you get a chance to engage those tactics, this will never happen.

Your point is valid too, though.. if a caster can shrug off an attack just because someone is a couple levels lower, there's not much point in doing anything but preying upon those lower than you.

PvP is really complicated. The only games that tend to do it right are ones that are 100% skill based (i.e. FPS type games, RTS type games). It'll take a while for WoW to shake out and see how it goes. However, I think you may be disappointed. The check-countercheck system you're talking about is exactly what was going on with the priest/paladin-undead-whoever(mage? warlock?) circle in beta, and they took that out. Because, again, if you were an undead and they were a priest/paladin you were screwed.

Level based primacy isn't really any more or less unfair than class based. But it at least gives more of a feeling of being in control.

[DeepT]

I've never used it in PvP, but the Rogue's kick is great at disrupting spellcasters in PvE. Obviously that's useless if I get jumped by a mage, but in a fair fight, I dunno.

Thats why my rogue carries bombs which stun for 2 seconds. A good anti-caster weapon at range.

[jafd]

I was responding to jafd, who apparently conceded that that IS what happens, but said it was okay because Mages have low armor and hit points.
Uhm, sorry... what? I was busy levelling.

That's not what I said, or if it was anything close to that, that's not what I meant.

Mages should always beat a warrior in 1:1 combat. It's okay, not because they have low armor and hit points. It's okay because they are mages.

Along with Euri, I missed it when you prefaced your remarks by saying that you have never pvp'ed and don't know anything about it. Because your point of view makes sense now. I also apologize for something that Euri pointed out, I was making lots of offhand comments assuming the entire audience knew what the hell they were reading about.

The fact that mages completely dominate warriors in 1:1 fights means nothing. Nothing at all. As a warrior, I no longer bother dueling with mages (who all seem to be the ones who want to do it all the time, GO FIGURE), not so much because I don't like losing, but because I'm sick of them standing there after I challenge, casting five or six buffing spells on themselves, drinking a flagon of Gatorade, and then saying, "okay, hit me now!" All this while I'm sitting around with my thumb up my ass, because as a warrior, I can't do shit until I have generated Rage.

On the other side of the coin, we have the fact that out of the last four skirmishes I've been in, I killed an average of five Horde casters for every one time that I died. If I'm in combat, I've got rage, I've got a wide array of tactical skills to choose from, I've got a shit ton of hit points, I've got speed potions, heal potions, etc.

Also, I have lovely weapons that do major damage all the time to anything in range... whether I have rage/mana or not. Sure, a mage can burn any one target down to the ground. Big deal. Targets have friends. Without mana, a mage is worse than useless. Mana is a function of time. Beating the shit out of someone with a sharp tool is a different function.

Having said all that, there is one thing I can think would make for a good change. When a warrior gets polyed, the chance of the poly breaking should be proportionate to the rage they have, and/or when the poly breaks, the warrior gets fifty rage. Because I know it sure pisses me off.

I hope this clarifies things for you, Gentle Reader. Yeah, 1:1 pvp is unbalanced. That's because 1:1 pvp is stupid. If you want that, go play Street Fighter, not WoW.

p.s. after reading through what I've written, I think that I have utterly failed in making my comments accessible to anyone without some background in the subject already. Uh, sorry.

[Kunikos]

FYI Warriors can use Rage Potions...

[jafd]

Great, buy me some kthx. I just love burning through money during a duel that serves no purpose whatsoever.

[Rywill]

Well, here's what you actually, literally said:

I'm not saying they're unbeatable, but one on one they are very tough now.
Again, I have no problem with this. They're mages. If giving up armor and hit points doesn't result in a significant gain in power, why the hell bother?

If you don't think "Mark said mages are too tough in 1-on-1 PvP, and jafd responded that that's okay because they give up armor and hit points," is a fair summary of that, I guess you and I can just be done talking now.

You seem to kind of go back and forth on whether mages in fact dominate in 1:1 PvP. If you think they don't (like Euri) you can take it up with Mark. I don't know whether they do or not.

But if you think they do (and that seems to be what you're saying, at least most of the time), I'd say that's a problem. You think 1-on-1 PvP balance is meaningless, but I totally disagree. Targets do not always "have friends." Sometimes you're traveling alone. Check out some of Gary's cool reports on his PvP experiences to see that, or talk to balut about his runs from town to town. It's just not practical for most people to have a team of friends with them every time they're in contested territory. And of course, sometimes you're hunting other players alone. So 1-on-1 balance definitely matters.

If a mage manages to ambush me at max range, or we spot each other on the road at range, I have no problem losing. If I stumble right next to a mage around a bend in the road, or if I stalk a mage and ambush him from dagger range and behind, I should win. If he blinks, polys, heals up all his health and mana, gets to max range, and then cancels the poly with his best special attack to re-start the fight, that would piss me off. I'm not going to feel happy sitting there shaking my fist going "Man, if I had friends, you'd sure be sorry!" I'd be thinking, "Whoa, those guys are pretty unbalanced."

[jafd]

Well, here's what you actually, literally said:

I'm not saying they're unbeatable, but one on one they are very tough now.
Again, I have no problem with this. They're mages. If giving up armor and hit points doesn't result in a significant gain in power, why the hell bother?

If you don't think "Mark said mages are too tough in 1-on-1 PvP, and jafd responded that that's okay because they give up armor and hit points," is a fair summary of that, I guess you and I can just be done talking now.
The confusion here that I was meaning to apologize for earlier, is that my comment was born out of a confusing and useless synthesis of game mechanics and roleplaying.

RP-wise, in exchange for being sickly, pale, and weak, a caster gets ENORMOUS COSMIC POWER. So it makes sense that way, that mages dominate, for sure.

From a strictly techinical perspective, your comments are certainly correct, in that it doesn't matter if they give up armor and hp if it never comes into play. However, there's a larger context here. As a warrior with 1400 hps, I can run through packs of monsters with impunity, whether I have mana or not. A caster cannot.

A warrior is dependent on equipment, which is nearly always ready at full effectiveness. A mage isn't effective all the time, there's huge peaks and valleys there. These are all significant balancing issues, because it doesn't matter much what one person can do to another in a completely sterile environment with no other influences. Because that -never- happens in the game, unless you're dueling, and dueling is stupid no matter what. (see below)

You seem to kind of go back and forth on whether mages in fact dominate in 1:1 PvP. If you think they don't (like Euri) you can take it up with Mark. I don't know whether they do or not.
They certainly do dominate. Personally I think they dominate just a little too much right now, but I believe that they should definitely be dominating.

Targets do not always "have friends." Sometimes you're traveling alone.
Well, tough luck. It's a multiplayer world simulation. You travel alone, you take risks. Even if you are traveling alone, and you meet an enemy who is traveling alone, who wins a conflict is going to depend on a great many factors other than class balance, i.e., connection speed, response time, latency, philosophy, and luck.

And even if targets do not always have friends, it's for damn certain that offensively minded strike teams do.

It's just not practical for most people to have a team of friends with them every time they're in contested territory.
Then they risk death. How is this a problem? It should be this way.

And of course, sometimes you're hunting other players alone. So 1-on-1 balance definitely matters.
Sure it matters! As a warrior, if it's me and another guy in the field, and it's a mage or a warlock or a paladin, I'm running away. Any other class, and I'm on them like white on rice. How is this a problem? It swings the other way, too.

If I stumble right next to a mage around a bend in the road, or if I stalk a mage and ambush him from dagger range and behind, I should win. If he blinks, polys, heals up all his health and mana, gets to max range, and then cancels the poly with his best special attack to re-start the fight, that would piss me off.
Note that he can only do this if he has enough mana. And even if he can do this, afterwards he can't do anything for 30 to 60 seconds, at least. He's a sitting duck for any mobs or other PCs that might be around. Even though I always lose a duel with a mage, I nearly always get them down to about 10% of their life, and they're usually out of mana unless I make errors or they get lucky. And I don't even have any resist gear yet.

This is why 1:1 dueling pvp is stupid and meaningless. It's a completely artificial situation that has no actual basis for comparison to how the classes are and ought to be balanced.

I'm not going to feel happy sitting there shaking my fist going "Man, if I had friends, you'd sure be sorry!" I'd be thinking, "Whoa, those guys are pretty unbalanced."
Again: they are mages. They're supposed to be unbalanced. It's magic.

Your concerns, while valid, simply aren't as large an issue in the larger context of the game as a whole. In my experience, casters of the same level as me in a battlefield situation spend the majority of their time hiding, scouting, running, or dying. Mostly the latter two.

[Rywill]

Maybe we're using "unbalanced" in two different ways. The fact that they're "mages" and use "magic" doesn't mean they should be significantly better than non-magical classes at the same level (which is what I mean by "unbalanced"). Sure, if magic were real, anyone who could use magic would be way better than anyone who couldn't. But this is a roleplaying game, and more than that, a massively multiplayer one. If you're going to offer nonmagical classes, they should be roughly balanced with the magic-using ones. Anything else is simply unfair for all the people who, for whatever reason, choose to play a melee class.

I agree that overall balance doesn't mean total balance in everything--some classes are better than average in a group but worse than average solo, or vice-versa; some are better at PvE but worse at PvP or vice-versa; etc. Like you say, some classes have "spiky" effectiveness where they're really good sometimes (full mana) and really bad others (no mana), and so they're balanced because the average point of their range (which is probably close to full mana--most mages spend most of their time at or near full mana, with only brief dips into the "low mana" and "no mana" territory) is on par with where a melee class is all the time. Well and good. And I have no problem with the idea that mages are the best overall class if you want to do 1:1 PvP (like hunting individuals), but are balanced because they're not as good in group PvP or PvE.

But they shouldn't be SO much better that they can win essentially any 1:1 PvP encounter. I mean, it's not like they're so bad at group combat that they always lose. If they really win essentially all (same-level) 1:1 encounters, that seems like too much.

I agree that traveling alone is a risk, and I accept that there's some risk. But that doesn't mean I accept ALL risk. By that logic, you could give a mage a power that instantly slays a single enemy, and that would be okay, because hey, traveling alone is risky. Obviously that's not what we want. Like I said, if a mage ambushes me, or we stumble into each other at range, I agree that I should lose. That's the risk I take. But if I stalk him and ambush him, or I run into him face-to-face, HE should lose--that's the risk HE takes.

[TrodKnee]

So, if you meet a mage one on one you should die, but if you have a friend along then the mage will be vulnerable. Unless of course the mage also has another mage friend, in which case if your friend has a friend then that mage will be vulnerable. Unless of course that mage also has another mage friend, in which case if your friend's friend has a friend then the mage will be vulnerable. Unless...

[Ephraim]

Damn.

Sorry, I wasn't online much today for pleasure, too busy at work, so I missed the requests for info about the Defenders of Order (DoO).

We're on Archimonde. That's where our official Alliance presence is located. We also have an official Horde server (for those guildies who insisted on playing Horde) but I haven't a clue which server they picked... I haven't been following WoW Guild stuff too closely. New job, and I didn't own the game... until today! I'm installing it now.

Oh, if you're interested in the Defenders of Order, we've got all kinds of stuff posted at our Web site (http://www.defendersoforder.com/), and even more stuff on our forums (http://skydance.phpwebhosting.com/cgi-bin/main).

/Eph

[jafd]

But they shouldn't be SO much better that they can win essentially any 1:1 PvP encounter.
Well here's the crux of our disagreement. A Mage, prepped with self-buffs and with full mana, should be able and far more likely to win against any single opponent of an equivalent level in the game. Hands down, no contest, no question. Assuming no driver error.

I'd like to see it be a little harder for them to dominate (nerf pvp poly plz kthx), but that's all. If a Mage cannot turn people into piles of ash, why be a Mage?

[Brad Wardell]

That's never happened to me, not in 64 levels of combined beta and retail play. Never even heard of it.

Elite monsters can see ghosts. For instance, the elite orcs in the redridge mountains (the castle portion) will see and kill your ghost. Don't die in that place.

[Mark Asher]

I'd like to see it be a little harder for them to dominate (nerf pvp poly plz kthx), but that's all. If a Mage cannot turn people into piles of ash, why be a Mage?

All they really need to do is make it so that mages can't eat and drink during a PvP battle just like they already can't during a PvE battle and not allow chain-casting polymorph. Once you're poly'd you should have a 30 second immunity to poly after it is removed.

[jafd]

They can poly me all I want as long as I get a rage bonus when it releases, and if my rage doesn't decay while polyed.

Also, I need to be able to change stances while polyed. I don't think these changes would impact the superiority of mage over warrior, but at least then they'd actually have to work at the battle instead of phoning their macros in.