So, this JFK thing

[mutt]

http://www.jfkreloaded.net/start/

Ok, so someone's finally taking the "play as the bad guy" philosophy to its logical conclusion. Predictably, everyone's up in arms over this, but it's hard for me to make out why. If I can play as an Alien and get my jollies ripping the heads off human Marines in AvP2, or going postal in Postal, or jackin' white boys with my shotgun in GTA:SA, what's the big deal?

[BrewersDroop]

The start of a new series? From the company that brought you "Deer Hunter" comes "Head of State Hunter". Follow up titles could include "Celebrity Hunter", "Ex-Wife Hunter" and "People Who Piss You Off Hunter".

[Backov]

Just wait for the first Expansion: Dubya.

[farley2k]

I think they would try to stick to historical figures rather than people currently alive.

So we could have a game where you get to stab Caesar! "Et Tu Farley?" :)
________
PRILOSEC LAWYERS (http://www.classactionsettlements.org/lawsuit/prilosec/)

[Mike Hussey]

I think they would try to stick to historical figures rather than people currently alive.



What's the point of assasinating someone who's already dead?

[Derek Meister]

Avoiding unpleasant visits from the Secret Service?

[hermyhermit]

Avoiding unpleasant visits from the Secret Service?

Exactly that.

I do have very good friends who are Secret Service, so my familiarity with their domain is rather high but I think just about everyone knows that making threats against a sitting US president be they verbal or otherwise (and I would qualify simulated killing in a game as otherwise) will get you visited, with the quickness...

And Bush is a paranoid freak anyways as evidenced by this (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A5043-2004Nov22.html?nav=headlines) so it would happen REALLY quick, they may just teleport to your house actually.

[Bub, Andrew]

Predictably, everyone's up in arms over this, but it's hard for me to make out why.

Really? You're serious?

[Gary Whitta]

I just tried to download the demo (no bullets) but it appears to be broken.

[mutt]

Predictably, everyone's up in arms over this, but it's hard for me to make out why.

Really? You're serious?

I'm completely serious. Make your case.

[Raife]

And Bush is a paranoid freak anyways as evidenced by this (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A5043-2004Nov22.html?nav=headlines) so it would happen REALLY quick, they may just teleport to your house actually.
Yeah, the spawn-within-your-house thing is just lame. I've created a maze entry complete with traps and false doors specifically to foil that. At least they can't teleport directly into your inner sanctum, but who knows what will become legal with the current Administration and Congress in power.

[Lunch of Kong]

They forgot to model the firing pin of the rifle. Frelling thing won't fire.

[Bill Dungsroman]

http://www.jfkreloaded.net/start/

Ok, so someone's finally taking the "play as the bad guy" philosophy to its logical conclusion.

Oh, not yet. Get back to me when I can play as Hitler.

[Rywill]

Predictably, everyone's up in arms over this, but it's hard for me to make out why.

Really? You're serious?

I'm completely serious. Make your case.
Can I make his case? It's insane to compare a game that recreates the shooting of a real-life person, which happened to also be a great national tragedy, in all its gory detail...with pretending to be a fictional alien killing fictional, interchangeable space marines. Same with the other examples you cited. I mean, this whole post is probably worthless, because if you don't see that right to begin with, we're probably just so far apart that there isn't any point in discussing it, but there you go. There's a difference between going postal in Postal (which is already on the line of good taste, from what I've seen), and lovingly recreating, with the faces of the actual victims, the school shootings at Columbine (or anything similar).

My assumption is that the game is being created just for its shock value. They probably figure "We'll get so much free press coverage that a few thousand people will download the game out of macabre curiosity, and we'll make a mint."

[Kunikos]

The question is how long it'll be until the Abe Lincoln assassination game comes out in the former Confederate states....

[Sean Hargraves]

I don't think of it as a game. Instead I regard it as an interactive simulation of an historical event. I think it's an interesting experiment to see how close someone can come to the findings of the Warren Commission.

The real question everyone seems to have forgotten: How fun can this be when there is no multiplayer?

[Sparky2003]

I can't find anything at all about this "Traffic Games" the supposed developers. One article credited them with "State of Emergency", an anarchy 'em up, but the mainstream media is utterly crap and unreliable reporting games or computer stuff in general.

[Drastic]

My assumption is that the game is being created just for its shock value. They probably figure "We'll get so much free press coverage that a few thousand people will download the game out of macabre curiosity, and we'll make a mint."
And I bet they're right on the money.

It should also give them free publicity for future projects, even less deliberately-controversial ones. Just have to manage to generate enough of a media buzz over the JFK thing so that they'll have a degree of "...most well-known for the controversy of the JFK assassination game..." in every single mention of State of Emergency 2 or whatnot.

[Derek Meister]

I don't think of it as a game. Instead I regard it as an interactive simulation of an historical event. I think it's an interesting experiment to see how close someone can come to the findings of the Warren Commission.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v291/dmeister/qt3/jfk-reloaded.jpg

The website is pretty careful to never refer to it as a game, but an "interactive reconstruction" or "historical simulation". However, it's harder to defend those phrases when you're giving the user the opportunity to play out the simulation and attempt to bag themselves a president. The "competition" where you can "win up to $100,000" doesn't help, either.



The real question everyone seems to have forgotten: How fun can this be when there is no multiplayer?

Equally valid: How fun could it be with multiplayer? After all, the biggest problem multiplayer faces is the fact that you're forced to, well, play it with other human players.

"Z'OMG! I so ownz0red ur a$$ presidant f4gg0t!"

[tim edwards]

We've just had a couple of emails from Talk Radio stations in the US, asking for an interview. The thing is, despite the way it's being marketed (100,000$ for the best shot. Get lost) at people, I'm kind of taken by the idea. Why can't we have playable documentaries? If it helps people understand the subject matter, I'm all for it.

[jpinard]

The problem here is it may inspire terrorists on how to become better snipers, getting at a President through the Secret Service.

The thing is, this is all about GREED. This is a crap company looking to make an easy buck. They come up with something that will generate the most outrage, they get lots of free publicity, and will make a bunch of sales - to some curiosity seekers, but mostly to people that really hate the US and it's current President.

[GuildBoss]

Call it what you want--simulation, game, whatwever. It doesn't change the fact that it's a tasteless, shameless money grab that hurts our hobby much more than it helps.

(Not to mention it sounds incredibly f'ing boring)

[Rywill]

Why can't we have playable documentaries? If it helps people understand the subject matter, I'm all for it.
Interesting take. I could see an interactive documentary, like where the whole JFK assassination is laid out in the computer and the "player" can watch from any point, etc., to get a better understanding of what happened. It seems a step too far to actually make the player Lee Harvey Oswald and award points for shooting JFK, though. Maybe that's an arbitrary line, but for some reason the idea of an "observer mode" is less offensive to me.

[mono]

Well the point of the cash prize, and the ability of the player to take the shots clearly exists to put forth the view that Oswald wasn't a lone gunman. They're not expecting anyone to win.

I'd be more interested in Rywill's take, but not just of the moments of the actual gunfire, but of the entire day, incorporating Oswald's approach to position and attempted escape.

[tim edwards]

Some relevant links: www.watercoolergames.org, www.newsgaming.com. Gonzalo Frasca of WaterCooler Games pointed out at GDCE this year that real world ip's, like JFK make for superb subjects for games. They've got immediate resonance, they're fascinating stories in of themselves, and they make press happen.

Someone upthread pointed out that this game is degrading our hobby. I don't think that's true. It's demonstrating to this unfeasibly uncarring world that games /will/ take on harder issues than rescuing Princess Peach. It's proving that they're relevant.

Last thoughts: JFK Reloaded is officially 17.8% on clearer moral ground than Duck Hunt: Remote Edition. http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/11/16/life.hunting.reut/index.html

[Pace]

The real question for me is how much they had to fudge the geography of the location so that the player has a clear shot from the appropriate window, and how the physics handle a bullet to the back of the head ....

Tin Foil hat!

[Bub, Andrew]

Predictably, everyone's up in arms over this, but it's hard for me to make out why.

Really? You're serious?

I'm completely serious. Make your case.
Can I make his case? It's insane to compare a game that recreates the shooting of a real-life person, which happened to also be a great national tragedy, in all its gory detail...with pretending to be a fictional alien killing fictional, interchangeable space marines. Same with the other examples you cited. I mean, this whole post is probably worthless, because if you don't see that right to begin with, we're probably just so far apart that there isn't any point in discussing it, but there you go. There's a difference between going postal in Postal (which is already on the line of good taste, from what I've seen), and lovingly recreating, with the faces of the actual victims, the school shootings at Columbine (or anything similar).

My assumption is that the game is being created just for its shock value. They probably figure "We'll get so much free press coverage that a few thousand people will download the game out of macabre curiosity, and we'll make a mint."

Rywill made my case. I wasn't going to say anything really, because it's self-fucking-evident. It's the equivalent of making a 9/11 Fly Into The Towers simulator - or a game about Colombine. If you need those two explained, Muttbunch, Rywill will be along shortly.

[BooTx]

I could make a better game and I don't even know how.

edit - Oh and it was on just about every news channel last night. So does this controversy stop here, or go on?

[runesword forger]

It goes on. Just hit the BBC. They're getting a publicity bonanza, so others will follow.

And as "historical simulators" go, could there be anything stupider that trying to shoot like Lee Harvey Oswald?

Can we look for to the MLK expansion?

Why not do a Space Shuttle sabotage simulator where you get an in-shuttle camera on the astronauts as they burn up, complete with audio?

[simoniker]

The person being quoted at Traffic Games, Kirk Ewing, is the former creative director of Scottish developer VIS Interactive, and seems to have been credited as 'Director' on Earthworm Jim 3D (which is, of course, being totally ripped off by Psychonauts, omg!). He's also credited for 'Original Concept' on State Of Emergency, which I heard used to be a crowd control simulator before it was, uhm, not much of a substantial game at all, really.

Wait, I just found a full bio on the Net for Kirk Ewing somewhere or other - this dates from 2003:

2001 - Present
ICM Interactive - Managing Director
ICMI is the European games division of ICM, the international film talent agency. Core business is the representation of talent and intellectual property in both the games and film business.
Clients include: Paul WS Anderson (Director/Writer - Resident Evil, Mortal Kombat, Event Horizon, Alien Vs. Predator), DNA Films (Director - Danny Boyle - Trainspotting, 28 Days Later), (Writer - Alex Garland - The Beach, 28 Days later), Rockstar Games (Grand Theft Auto), AP Watt (Various writers), Amuze AB (Headhunter 1& 2 - SEGA), Ministry of Sound (Music Brand)
1995 - 2001
VIS Entertainment - Founder/VP Creative
VIS Entertainment is a videogame development company responsible for a series of successful games across mulitple formats including State of Emergency - U.S. No. 1 game (1m + units) www.visentertainment.com
1989 - 1995
EVTV - Partner/MD
EVTV was set up to provide fully equipped film and television crews for broadcasters and TV production companies. Over the period the company developed its own production division and completed several successful programs in both Drama and Documentary for UK broadcasters.
FURTHER INFORMATION
TIGA Member
Founder committee member - Edinburgh International Games Festival
TV commentator - Gamesmaster Channel 4 -www.gamesmastertv.co.uk

Interesting background for what's a fairly guerrilla stunt.

[Lenkenobi]

The fact that all these people are upset is the real payoff of the game.

I agree with the folks who said this was just a publicity thing. It's obviously working on us nicely.

The chances are that the people who are going to use this game to oppose the greater good of video games would have never swayed to our side in the first place
(unless someone has a kickass feed the homeless, spread the gospel, and care for the elderly sim that I missed (Dual-wielding bible thumping, anyone?)).

And do we really care about their opinions and arguments anyway?

I'm sure you will think this is a callous comparison, but here it goes anyways :)...

At the beginning of the season, after acquiring T.O. and the Freak, an ESPN football analyst swore up and down that the Philadelphia Eagles would be 8 and 8 this year and miss the playoffs. (Philly is 9 and 1, clinched their division this year)

People still call local Philly radio stations bitching about that analyst, who basically got the attention of a city of zealous sports fans who would otherwise be oblivious had he not said something contraversial and brainless.

[hermyhermit]

Why not do a Space Shuttle sabotage simulator where you get an in-shuttle camera on the astronauts as they burn up, complete with audio?


Well, the space shuttle presumably wasn't sabotaged but I still love the idea you are putting forth. It is SO vanguard and edgy to make a "historical simulation" like this that the Space Shuttle Explosion Simulator (SSES, tm) would be the next logical step in this progession.

I also feel that a gas chamber simulator would be of great historic value as well. You of course could do the "Shower Head Cam" where you actually are looking down at the Jews. And then the "Oven Cam" where you get a nice shot of the bodies coming into the ovens... Burninating! Trogdor strikes again!

[Alan Au]

Had this been a scenario in a Hitman-type game featuring some anonymous politician as the victim, it almost certainly wouldn't have drawn nearly as much attention as it has. It's all about the marketing... For some reason I'm reminded of the now-bankrupt Acclaim.

- Alan

[Brian Minsker]

Just wait for the first Expansion: Dubya.

I thought the first expansion would be "Harrison", where you navigate your little William Henry Harrison LSL:MCL-style through your two-hour innauguration speech trying to avoid hitting the bacteria. Hit too many before the speech is over, and, well, you're history.

[Stephen Riach]

It's all fun and games until it involves an American President...hypocrisy rears it's ugly head.

[Oghier]

It's not hypocrisy, and the issue is not specifically that a US president is involved. You'd see a similar outcry for other simulations of real-world tragedies. FPS games often let you kill civilians. How do you suppose an "OJ Simpson simulator" would be received? You could stalk Nicole Brown before cutting her into a bloody mess.

Fictional storylines and real events are different. Actual tragedies evoke real emotions in people, and this game is designed to exploit that. What if an American company produced "Paparazzi", a game in which players compete to see who can get the best camera angle on a shot of Princess Diana as she lies bleeding to death in that car. Bonus points for a nip-slip! You think that'd be well-received as a historical simulation?

[Duality]

Why can't we have playable documentaries? If it helps people understand the subject matter, I'm all for it.
I think it helps as well. Unfortunately, JFK Reloaded is a really bad precedent for this application because it doesn't really teach anything. Documentaries, IMO, are supposed to be about providing information that is not otherwise already known. Instead of JFK Reloaded being based solely on the Warren Commission report. It doesn't take into account any of the findings of the HSCA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_Select_Committee_on_Assassinations) or allow to reenact the assassination based on all of the testimony recieved on the subject in the 40 years since the assassination.

I really believe that a documentary on the JFK assassination is incomplete if it doesn't at least make some effort to provide insight into why it's so inconclusive.

I made a post about this earlier (http://www.quartertothree.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=15269) which explains my feelings on this subject.

[Kevin J Baird]

I paid the $10 to try the game so I could talk about it in an interview. I've seen worse games that were attempts at shock value.

What happens, is that you fire the three shots (Or more, if you prefer) and try to mimick Oswalds shots. There is a replay, which includes brain matter flying if you get a head shot. Then there is a ballistics report of everything your bullet hit during it's journey including a graphical representation of the path.

I figured they'd just drive off and repeat the same staged antics every time, but if you shoot the driver, he'll drive off the road. You can cap most of the people in the prossession of you want to go nuts.

At one point, my bullet lodged in the knee of the driver, which caused him to floor the accelerator and swerve into a tree. This caused JFK and the Governor to fly out of the vehicle and then the car rolled over them.

Once you see your ballistics report, it tallys your score based on how accurately you followed Oswalds path. For instance, you get points for killing JFK, wounding the Governor, not injuring the females, and then entry and exit points of the bullets following the same thing as history presents.

You also get ten chances to make the 3 exact shots that Oswald did. Whoever gets the highest score will win 100,00$. Sure to be a hacker of some sort.

After that, you have to dodge the bullets from Jack Ruby and head back into time to assassinate Lincoln. Oh, and the bonus board, you get to kill John Lennon...

Ok, that last paragraph was B.S...

K