US christianity going through a bad patch

[Jason McCullough]

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2004_11_07.php#003956

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS: Dr. Dobson, you also have a problem with the ranking Democrat on the Senate Judiciary Committee, Senator Patrick Leahy. I want to show something that was reported in "The Daily Oklahoman" during the campaign. In the "Daily Oklahoman," it quoted you saying, "Patrick Leahy is a God's people hater. I don't know if he hates God, but he hates God's people." Now, Dr. Dobson, that doesn't sound like a particularly Christian thing to say. Do you think you owe Senator Leahy an apology?
DR JAMES DOBSON: George, you think you ought to lecture me on what a Christian is all about? You know, I think -I think I'll stand by the things I have said. Patrick Leahy has been in opposition to most of the things that I believe. He is the one that took the reference to God out of the oath.

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS: But Dr. Dobson, excuse me for a second. You use the word hate. You said that he's a "God's people hater." How do you back that up?

DR JAMES DOBSON: Well, there's been an awful lot of hate expressed in this election. And most of it has been aimed at those who hold to conservative Christian views. He is certainly not the only one to take a position like that. But
I think that that is -that's where he's coming from. He has certainly
opposed most of the things that conservative Christians stand for.

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS: So no apology?

DR JAMES DOBSON: No apology.

A wonderful embarassment.

[Bullhajj]

How comes this guy I never heard of suddenly stands for US Christianity?

[Jason McCullough]

Because he has a huge following out there, advises Presidents, and gets invited on sunday morning establishment talk shows.

Liberals don't get much heat for idiots like Chomsky because we made it quite clear they were full of shit.

This guy? Doesn't happen. Has a very vocal minority in favor of him and the majority is silent.

[Bullhajj]

You're talking about political groups, not religious groups.

[Jason McCullough]

There's a difference?

You and I know this shithead is not representative of christianity. His followers don't. Neither do the secular. Neither do the Muslims. Why would they, when no one tells them?

Oh, and I'm surprised you haven't heard of dobson. He's like the god-king of evangelicals.

[Bullhajj]

I seriously doubt the Muslims are overly concerend with anyone calling Patrick Leahy "God's people hater." The Muslims would be like, Patrick who?

[Lunch of Kong]

Patrick who?

[John Many Jars]

He's a one-eyed, one-horned flying Yahweh's people hater,
one-eyed, one-horned flying Yahweh's people hater,
one-eyed, one-horned flying Yahweh's people hater,
Pat-rick Leah-a-hee!

[Angie Gallant]

I seriously doubt the Muslims are overly concerend with anyone calling Patrick Leahy "God's people hater." The Muslims would be like, Patrick who?

Yeah, those American Muslims are so out of touch with politics.

[Tyjenks]

Anyone else find it funny/ironic that:

On one hand, we have the Fundamentalists want to throw their weight around because they believe they won Bush the election.

OTOH, we have a vocal left who is afraid we are turning into a theocracy because of the Christians who came out to vote.

Wouldn't it be great if the perception that the Fundies swung the election is false and that the reason that view is so prevalent is due to the left's hyperbolic outcry? Kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[Jason McCullough]

I'm sure it'd make you feel better, yes.

[Tyjenks]

I'm sure it'd make you feel better, yes.

Nah, fast forwarding to 2008 and having 2 decent choices would, though.

Yes, Dobson is a nut. If Kerry had been elected, he would have instead been one screaming "Its the end of times" and that he is leaving the country.

[Jason McCullough]

Erm, and what's your point?

[quatoria]

I'm sure it'd make you feel better, yes.

Nah, fast forwarding to 2008 and having 2 decent choices would, though.

Yes, Dobson is a nut. If Kerry had been elected, he would have instead been one screaming "Its the end of times" and that he is leaving the country.

You spent the days after the elections telling the people on P&R to get over their over-reaction to it and "move past it." When are you going to do the same thing? It seems like virtually every post of yours in this forum for the past ten days has been making fun of the way a few people acted on the day after the elections. Or did you think that the best way to help everyone "move past it" would be to throw it in their faces three or four times a day? Seriously, why do you keep sounding the same one note, over and over and over again?

[Tyjenks]

I was just trying to say this guy is on one extreme and reactions and outcries would have been reversed if the election had been different. People on both extremes are no different to me. They say irrational things that a minority listens and adheres to, but the rest of us can safely ignore. I did not give his remarks a second thought after hearing them and thinking, "What a loon".

You are right. I have harped on the left's reaction. I was just amazed at the hysteria as I perceived it. To me, it seemed like deja vu from 8 years ago when Clinton was re-elected and the right was so distrautght. I understand that many of you think Bush is a timebomb ticking. The right also believed Clinton was a disaster waiting to happen. Each for completely seperate reasons. Again, to me, it seems like the swing of the pendulum and while very dissapointing, not the end of the world. It'll swing back.

This time I only used it for comparison's sake, but continuing to bring it up is counterproductive. I shall cease and desist.

[quatoria]

I was just trying to say this guy is on one extreme and reactions and outcries would have been reversed if the election had been different. People on both extremes are no different to me. They say irrational things that a minority listens and adheres to, but the rest of us can safely ignore. I did not give his remarks a second thought after hearing them and thinking, "What a loon".

I think it's safe to say that the reason some people are worried is because they perceive this loon, or loons just like him, as being in the corridors of power, having the ears of the people who *are* in power. Whether or not that's true, I can't say - but it's a reasonable thing to be concerned about.

You are right. I have harped on the left's reaction. I was just amazed at the hysteria as I perceived it. To me, it seemed like deja vu from 8 years ago when Clinton was re-elected and the right was so distrautght. I understand that many of you think Bush is a timebomb ticking. The right also believed Clinton was a disaster waiting to happen. Each for completely seperate reasons. Again, to me, it seems like the swing of the pendulum and while very dissapointing, not the end of the world. It'll swing back.

You were right to harp on it, in the first couple of days. The caterwauling and gnashing of teeth was counterproductive and quickly became ridiculous. It was useful to have someone present who was trying to make people realize how pointless their current behavior was in making things better. My only point was that to continue to harp on it long after the point begins to have the same effect as the initial wailing, which is to say, a counterproductive one. Which you seem to have realized, so no need to talk about it further.

[Jason McCullough]

You're certainly being reasonable, Ty! Why, it's not like Bush has announced that he's going to run through the gay marriage amendment again, or smacked Specter around for talking about rejecting judges who'll overturn Roe.

[Tyjenks]

Yeah, the Frist vs. Specter thing is worrisome. I am not saying there is not room for concern. I really just wanted to say, Yeah, Dobson's an ignorant boob and does not reflect the majority of folks that'll be running the US for the next four years.

[Andrew Mayer]

Yeah, the Frist vs. Specter thing is worrisome. I am not saying there is not room for concern. I really just wanted to say, Yeah, Dobson's an ignorant boob and does not reflect the majority of folks that'll be running the US for the next four years.

"Epitomize" might be a better word than "Reflect".

[Tyjenks]

Yeah, the Frist vs. Specter thing is worrisome. I am not saying there is not room for concern. I really just wanted to say, Yeah, Dobson's an ignorant boob and does not reflect the majority of folks that'll be running the US for the next four years.

"Epitomize" might be a better word than "Reflect".

How 'bout we wait and see, then. Can either one of us definitively say that the Fundamentalists are or are not going to have their way for four years because a few more turned out? Sure the Right is going to try to push as much through as possible while they are in control. However, there are moderate Republicans out there that are not going to let a lot of crazy legislation pass. There will be a lot of grandstanding and token effort by some to make sure the Christian right is appeased. The whole party is not like Dobson and Falwell and Robertson.

[Jason McCullough]

Yeah, the Frist vs. Specter thing is worrisome. I am not saying there is not room for concern. I really just wanted to say, Yeah, Dobson's an ignorant boob and does not reflect the majority of folks that'll be running the US for the next four years.

The President likes him, Delay likes him, and so does Grover Norquist. All you need. Elections are about majority vote, but implementation of policy is all about powerful and focused minority blocs outmanuevering the disorganized majority.

[Tyjenks]

Damn, why couldn't Delay have lost? If I am wrong, I will come back and you can all point and laugh and say I told you so and throw monkey feces. :) I would like to wait and see and avoid any sky is falling talk. If I let every politician that says something scary worry me, I would have to move up my dosage.....again.

[Nick Walter]

Damn, why couldn't Delay have lost? If I am wrong, I will come back and you can all point and laugh and say I told you so and throw monkey feces. :) I would like to wait and see and avoid any sky is falling talk. If I let every politician that says something scary worry me, I would have to move up my dosage.....again.

Good call Tyjenks. I have to agree that there seems to be a little too much alarmism going around.

[quatoria]

Damn, why couldn't Delay have lost? If I am wrong, I will come back and you can all point and laugh and say I told you so and throw monkey feces. :) I would like to wait and see and avoid any sky is falling talk. If I let every politician that says something scary worry me, I would have to move up my dosage.....again.

Good call Tyjenks. I have to agree that there seems to be a little too much alarmism going around.

Do you agree, however, that there ARE things to be concerned about?

[Bullhajj]

There are *always* things to be concerend about. The fact that there are things to be concerend about does not mean that you're not behaving like Chicken Little.

[Midnight Son]

You know.... many christians are BAD tippers!! Cheap holier-than-thou bastiches..... :lol:

[Bullhajj]

You know.... many christians are BAD tippers!! Cheap holier-than-thou bastiches.....

What did the leper say to the prostitute?

[Midnight Son]

"Don't make me break my foot off in yo ass!" :lol:

[quatoria]

There are *always* things to be concerend about. The fact that there are things to be concerend about does not mean that you're not behaving like Chicken Little.

I'm behaving like Chicken Little? Where in this thread am I doing so? My only participation in the argument at hand was to explain why some people were concerned, and seertt that there were reasons to be concerned, a statement you agree with. Or is this just "Tim thinks all liberals = behaving like chicken little, quatoria = liberal, therefore, quatoria = behaving like chicken little", made irrespective of any actual statement on my part?

[Bullhajj]

Baaaawwwwwwwwck! Bawck!

[Jason McCullough]

So what needs to happen before you two actually get worried?

[Nick Walter]

So what needs to happen before you two actually get worried?

Something worth getting upset over. Something real, not just a "Person with horrible quality X and evil agenda Y is in office, watch out!" type thing.

Iraq concerns me, and I sincerely hope we'll start doing better on that. Economic issues concern me, and again I'd hope america improves on that too. However, a little historical perspective tells me things are pretty darn rosy compared to some of the low points of american history as a whole.

[Brian Koontz]

So what needs to happen before you two actually get worried?

Something worth getting upset over. Something real, not just a "Person with horrible quality X and evil agenda Y is in office, watch out!" type thing.

Iraq concerns me, and I sincerely hope we'll start doing better on that. Economic issues concern me, and again I'd hope america improves on that too. However, a little historical perspective tells me things are pretty darn rosy compared to some of the low points of american history as a whole.

Well, THAT makes me feel much better.

"Not even The Bush Administration can severely fuck up America in four years"!

So... lets go for eight! Its like playing Russian Roulette. When the gun goes "click", wow, the whole thing is "not worth getting upset over"... lets go another round!

[Tyjenks]

Laws passed. Rulings overturned. Amendments repealed. Martial law. Manditory religions. Something actually happening.

Some appointments, business-as-usual political wrangling, and some spouting off at the mouth by soem dope wanting to make a scene on one of the Sunday shows is minor.

Like Nick, the war concerns me more than anything right now. Colin Powell out and Rumsfeld still in concerns me.

I am seriously concerned about how easy it is to get into this nation through Mexico - terrorists, drug traffickers, deported criminals bouncing right back over, desperate Mexicans dying trying to cross the desert, and the pitiful and corrupt Mexican government/police force which allow and encourage and support much of this. I do not blame the one's who are coming for monetary gain. I think some kind of guest worker program should be worked out, but its the others that are committing crime, burdening our public systems (health/police/etc.), and possible terrorists which concern me.

[Nick Walter]

Laws passed. Rulings overturned. Amendments repealed. Martial law. Manditory religions. Something actually happening.


Amen.

The biggest "something actually happening" recently that concerns me is all the states passing anti-gay marriage laws. But we can't pin that one on the Bush administration, that's the will of the people speaking.

[Jason McCullough]

"I'll wait until something bad happens before I worry about the possibility of something bad happening" doesn't have a very good track record.

[Bullhajj]

All together now: Bawwwwwwwwwwwwwack. bawck!

[Nick Walter]

"I'll wait until something bad happens before I worry about the possibility of something bad happening" doesn't have a very good track record.

Ditto for paranoia.

[Jason McCullough]

So you're literally going to sit there until Roe is overturned?

[Bullhajj]

So you're literally going to sit there until Roe is overturned?

You say this like you think getting paranoid and upset can change things.

[Jason McCullough]

Theoretically, if all the ambivalent people had voted against Bush the election would have turned out differently.

[Bullhajj]

In theory. In practice, not so much.

[Bullhajj]

Also, note that voting does not equal getting all paranoid and upset.

[quatoria]

In theory. In practice, not so much.

Yes. In practice, more people acted like you.

[Nick Walter]

So you're literally going to sit there until Roe is overturned?

Huh?

Jason, it's reality check time. We are debating politics on the internet. We are both just sitting here. I'm objecting to your method of debating politics, not your politics (I suspect we largely agree on that). You seem to have this idea that catastrophe lurks around every corner as long as Bush as in the white house. I don't like the guy, but I think the paranoia is unfounded, absurd, and severely impairs the possibility of rational discussion of the issues.

[Tyjenks]

So you're literally going to sit there until Roe is overturned?

Huh?

Jason, it's reality check time. We are debating politics on the internet. We are both just sitting here. I'm objecting to your method of debating politics, not your politics (I suspect we largely agree on that). You seem to have this idea that catastrophe lurks around every corner as long as Bush as in the white house. I don't like the guy, but I think the paranoia is unfounded, absurd, and severely impairs the possibility of rational discussion of the issues.

It is like Nick and I are the same person. :)

If it looked like the overturning of Roe v. Wade was approaching or if legislation was being proposed that affected any of these issues we are worried about, then I would definitely be more vocal and I guess that means railing on the internet in this case.

There are plenty of worries with the turnover in the administration's staff, but the possible direction that may result in some form of legislation that could be probposed and then has a small chance of passing is not anywhere on the radar for me.

[Jason McCullough]

So you're literally going to sit there until Roe is overturned?

Huh?

Jason, it's reality check time. We are debating politics on the internet. We are both just sitting here. I'm objecting to your method of debating politics, not your politics (I suspect we largely agree on that). You seem to have this idea that catastrophe lurks around every corner as long as Bush as in the white house. I don't like the guy, but I think the paranoia is unfounded, absurd, and severely impairs the possibility of rational discussion of the issues.

This fascinates me, because I'm a *moderate* on "Bush is incompetent." The only really fatal thing I think he's doing is purging the CIA; the rest is just really annoying.

Does everything I claim will happen have to before its not paranoia anymore? Is predicting Iraq's trajectory correctly not enough to get me some respect?

[Bullhajj]

In practice, more people acted like you.

I"m not sure what this is supposed to mean, but I believe there were record numbers of voters this election.

[Bullhajj]

So you're literally going to sit there until Roe is overturned?

Huh?

Jason, it's reality check time. We are debating politics on the internet. We are both just sitting here. I'm objecting to your method of debating politics, not your politics (I suspect we largely agree on that). You seem to have this idea that catastrophe lurks around every corner as long as Bush as in the white house. I don't like the guy, but I think the paranoia is unfounded, absurd, and severely impairs the possibility of rational discussion of the issues.

This fascinates me, because I'm a *moderate* on "Bush is incompetent." The only really fatal thing I think he's doing is purging the CIA; the rest is just really annoying.

Does everything I claim will happen have to before its not paranoia anymore? Is predicting Iraq's trajectory correctly not enough to get me some respect?

Bawk!