Marines turn to God ahead of anticipated Fallujah battle

[Midnight Son]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20041106/lf_afp/iraq_fallujah_church_041106183348

With US forces massing outside Fallujah, 35 marines swayed to Christian rock music and asked Jesus Christ to protect them in what could be the biggest battle since American troops invaded Iraq last year.

Men with buzzcuts and clad in their camouflage waved their hands in the air, M-16 assault rifles laying beside them, and chanted heavy metal-flavoured lyrics in praise of Christ late Friday in a yellow-brick chapel.

They counted among thousands of troops surrounding the city of Fallujah, seeking solace as they awaited Iraqi Prime Minister Iyad Allawi's decision on whether or not to invade Fallujah.

"You are the sovereign. You're name is holy. You are the pure spotless lamb," a female voice cried out on the loudspeakers as the marines clapped their hands and closed their eyes, reflecting on what lay ahead for them.

The US military, with many soldiers coming from the conservative American south and midwest, has deep Christian roots.

Others, who had just found Christ, were baptized. Whatever gets you through the Crusade....

[BooTx]

What exactly is the point of this thread?

[Dirt]

The point is that what we have now are Christian Fundamentalists versus Radical Islamics.

[Jason McCullough]

I dunno, they're basically doing a suicidial-by-US-standards assault. Of course they're going to be praying.

[mouselock]

The point is that what we have now are Christian Fundamentalists versus Radical Islamics.

There's a bit more to fundamentalism than praying to your god before a battle, no matter whose side it's on.

Now, if you want to make comment about this story actually being newsworthy in the first place, I'm with you there. But I don't think asking God to keep you alive in the upcoming battle is exactly a new and radical manifestation of any religion.

[BooTx]

So a couple dozen members of the US military are hardcore Christians.

And why is that "news", exactly?

[Troy S Goodfellow]

Doesn't the saying go "There are no atheists in foxholes"? This is hardly newsworthy or even Midnight Son postworthy.

Troy

[Midnight Son]

Dirt is right. The last one left after Armageddon turn out the light.... :roll:

[John Reynolds]

If I were a young enlisted man about to be ordered into Fallujah, I'd be praying too. I'd be praying for something really, really bad to happen to George W. Bush for delaying this assault until after the elections so the inevitable casualties from it wouldn't hurt his political career, for allowing the insurgents more time to grow their numbers, their munitions stores, and to harden their positions throughout the city.

The timing of this assault truly disgusts me as an American.

[John Many Jars]

No accounting for taste --- I'd be cranking "The Trooper."

[Anaxagoras]

The timing of this assault truly disgusts me as an American.

As an American, Bush shares your disgust. But as a right-wing ideologue, he's tickled pink. After all... he won. What more could you ask for?

[Derek Meister]

Doesn't the saying go "There are no atheists in foxholes"?

Personal experience shows that the more fundamental religious a soldier is, the worse off you are in sharing a foxhole with them, at least in terms of your own survival.

[Anaxagoras]

Doesn't the saying go "There are no atheists in foxholes"?

Personal experience shows that the more fundamental religious a soldier is, the worse off you are in sharing a foxhole with them, at least in terms of your own survival.

Really? Why is that? I would have thought a soldier's religiosity wouldn't have much of an effect on this, one way or another.

[MarchHare]

Doesn't the saying go "There are no atheists in foxholes"?

Personal experience shows that the more fundamental religious a soldier is, the worse off you are in sharing a foxhole with them, at least in terms of your own survival.

Really? Why is that? I would have thought a soldier's religiosity wouldn't have much of an effect on this, one way or another.

I would guess that deeply religious people are less afraid of dying, since to them death means eternal paradise.

But that's just my theory.

[Toddy]

What's so suicidal about this attack? If the Iraqi insurgents have any sense, they'll offer no reistance and try their best to melt into the civilian population until the Americans leave the city, or until the Iraqis can comfortably go back to hit and run attacks. I don't know how the US military thinks these sorts of large-scale military ops are going to work when your enemy can simply drop the weapons and return home for a bit till the heat's off. That said, the US needed to do something big to intimidate the rebels. I just don't see how any offense is going to make much of a difference long-term.

As for the relevance of this story, well, this isn't exactly a conventional war. It's Christians versus Muslims, no matter how Bush wants to spin this as a war against the brown people who hate freedom. So I don't think it looks particularly good to see soldiers getting baptized and chanting praises to Christ before going into battle. Besides, wasn't this sort of thing a little more low-key in the past? Like quiet prayers and prayer circles, that sort of thing?

[Jason McCullough]

Street fighting tends to get lots of people killed on both sides. Still, said "suicidal by US standards"; house to hosue fighting isn't our forte.

Exactly when in human history has "intimidating the rebels" worked, short of mass slaughter?

[Derek Meister]

Really? Why is that? I would have thought a soldier's religiosity wouldn't have much of an effect on this, one way or another.

In many ways it comes down to the basic difference of belief, in one case, "Don't worry, live or die, Jesus will save us in the end," and the other "Man is the shaper of his own destiny."

Although you wouldn't think it should make a difference, when times of extreme stress have occurred in situations I've been in, the "I'm not afraid of dying, Lord" attitude has been significantly less helpful than that of "fuck this noise, I'm goddamn doing something about it" from some of the less religiously fanatical members of my team.

YMMV, of course.

Still, you can actually see some of this attitude in some political movements right now, particularly evironmentalism of all places. There is a non-insignificant movement within the right that believes that we were given the earth by god to do with as we please, and since the end-times are approaching, environmentalism be damned.

"... don't worry, Jesus will fix all our problems."

I wish I was making that up.

[Linoleum]

If I were a young enlisted man about to be ordered into Fallujah, I'd be praying too. I'd be praying for something really, really bad to happen to George W. Bush for delaying this assault until after the elections so the inevitable casualties from it wouldn't hurt his political career, for allowing the insurgents more time to grow their numbers, their munitions stores, and to harden their positions throughout the city.

The timing of this assault truly disgusts me as an American.

While the US forces will take some casualties to be sure, those aren't the casualties people will be "outraged" about. A decisive pacification of the city before the election and its "wagging the dog".

What's so suicidal about this attack? If the Iraqi insurgents have any sense, they'll offer no reistance and try their best to melt into the civilian population until the Americans leave the city, or until the Iraqis can comfortably go back to hit and run attacks.

If you are a male Iraqi between 18-40 and you haven't already bugged out, life is grim. If you aren't from Iraq, life is very very grim.

[Ben]

35 soldiers? Oh, it's the new Crusades!

[Midnight Son]

Ben, you be acting like a Bush voter. Duh!

[Ben]

What? Shouldn't a Bush voter(in your childish version of reality) be praising these fine young men who will smite the heathens?

[Midnight Son]

Ize referring to you referring to 35 soldiers when there are clearly many more than that. It's a mandate!

[Lizard_King]

Others, who had just found Christ, were baptized. Whatever gets you through the Crusade....
Midnite, as usual you mistake your background as carte blanche to shit on the military. It's not really the article that bothers me, but the obviousness of your motives in posting it. You can draw all the abstract parallels between Muslim fundamentalists and Marines as you need to facilitate your political delusions, but this is different. Can't you leave these men alone, and at least pretend that you are on their side, in the loosest sense of not wanting them to die?

As a side note, intense religiosity and stressful moments in the Corps go hand in hand. It is taken for granted that Marines will be all about god in boot camp, combat, and then return to normal once they are out of the shit. Prayer is almost like a mnemonic device to activate your training and do your job.

(somewhat relevant personal note: does not apply to all marines...for instance, I'm an atheist and have yet to get foxholed out of it)

[Midnight Son]

Oh, sorry, I was never a jarhead. They seem a hell of a lot more religious than my old army buddies. Of course, we were battle tested vets and not green troops. We found that having the right equipment, leadership and buddies watching out for each other was more effective than prayer.

Furthermore, what I really find reprehensible is these kids being used as pawns in Dubya's game of Risk. I don't want them to die. Especially not for the glory of Our Great Leader.

[Lizard_King]

Oh, sorry, I was never a jarhead. They seem a hell of a lot more religious than my old army buddies. Of course, we were battle tested vets and not green troops. We found that having the right equipment, leadership and buddies watching out for each other was more effective than prayer.
I'm not even going to get sucked into the bullshit comparisons between the two services you are trying to draw here. You know damned well these "green troops" are worth more than you grant them, and probably more than any shitbag forced to serve alongside you.

Furthermore, what I really find reprehensible is these kids being used as pawns in Dubya's game of Risk. I don't want them to die. Especially not for the glory of Our Great Leader.
Don't waffle, you big sissy. It's not a secret what you were trying to say here, I was just taken aback by the utter contempt in which you held them. It's simply not normal for prior enlisted to spew such dripping venom over the current batch.

[Midnight Son]

Oh get off your fucking high and mighty horse with your fake outrage. People like you are the reason those guys are over there in the first place. Save your bullshit for someone else, ok?

Let me spell if out for you one more time: I don't hold them in contempt, I hold the entire system of thought that put them there in contempt. If you can't get your little beetlebrowed head around that, then I can't help you.

I hope they all get home safe.

[Lizard_King]

Oh get off your fucking high and mighty horse with your fake outrage. People like you are the reason those guys are over there in the first place. Save your bullshit for someone else, ok?
Yeah, people who enlist in the military and don't vote, we are the key to Bush's power. VASTRIGHTWINGCONSPIRACY!

Let me spell if out for you one more time: I don't hold them in contempt, I hold the entire system of thought that put them there in contempt. If you can't get your little beetlebrowed head around that, then I can't help you.

I hope they all get home safe.
Why am I reminded of the false allegiance pledged by notable foreign politicians when put in a corner? Oh yeah, because rank hypocrisy ignores borders and trends across the simpleminded.

[Midnight Son]

Lord have moicy, you are so full of yourself. Does it come naturally, or do you practise in front of a mirror? If you have any more pomposity for me, better hurry up; Monday Night Football starts soon.

[Lizard_King]

Lord have moicy, you are so full of yourself. Does it come naturally, or do you practise in front of a mirror? If you have any more pomposity for me, better hurry up; Monday Night Football starts soon.
Torpedoed, then claims victory from the bottom of the sea. And then you wonder why the Democrats continue to embarrass themselves against all odds.

Note to you: Accusing me of "pomposity", from your mouth with your words, means less than nothing. Give it a rest, army of one.

[Derek Meister]

As usual, Midnight Son's particular posting style allows what could be an interesting discussion become mired in flame wars rather than civilized debate. In many ways he's our own Michael Moore, the existence of which provides a convenient way to dodge any legitimate points he might make by attacking him for what is a, at best uneven, at worst biased, reporting style.

Anyway, that out of the way ...

This story isn't particularly "newsworthy", nor should it be used to paint all members of the military with the same singular brush. However, it does provide an interesting method to look at islamic followers through a different lens.

Here in the states, we're awash in statements, images and opinions that boil down to stereotypes of any followers of Islam being violent fanatics who act without thought because of their belief system.

Consider, for a second, how many americans would view images of muslim soldiers doing similar things to those christian soldiers prior to a battle. Many americans would instantly react negatively, suggesting that they're using their religion as a crutch to allow them to go into battle with fanatical beliefs about how they're right because their religions says they are.

Consider how many ignorant americans assume that all of islam is about violence in the form of religious crusade, that because the name of Mohammad is called upon that he too much support all violent actions done in his name. Then consider how there are christian soldiers right now calling upon Jesus Christ to protect them while they go into a city with devastating weapons to kill anyone who fights against them. Does that mean Jesus encouraged violence in his name?

Now, while the neoconservatives are ready to crucify me for daring to compare christians and muslims, note that I'm not trying to imply that these soldiers are wrong to use their faith to steel themselves. What I am asking, instead, is to consider the stereotypes thrown around these forums by the likes of CindySue22, Bob Cherub and others of all islamic followers as being violent fanatics in light of how our own people are.

Yes, there are violent fanatics using islam to justify their actions, and they deserve the missile heading right towards them, but they aren't representative of all muslims any more than IRA terrorists killing with bombs or people killing abortion doctors in the name of Jesus are representative of all christians.

That's why the story is interesting, at least to me.

[russellmz00]

Doesn't the saying go "There are no atheists in foxholes"?

Personal experience shows that the more fundamental religious a soldier is, the worse off you are in sharing a foxhole with them, at least in terms of your own survival.

Really? Why is that? I would have thought a soldier's religiosity wouldn't have much of an effect on this, one way or another.

I would guess that deeply religious people are less afraid of dying, since to them death means eternal paradise.

But that's just my theory.

huh, you'd think that someone unafraid of death would be calmer in battle or something.

[Derek Meister]

Being "calm" isn't always a good thing, though.

Well, that's really because there are different types of "calm" out there, but in particular "calm and inactive" and "calm and active".

When a situation went bad, it was usually the religious fundementalist in my little group who suddenly lost his momentum, because he started acting under the concept that he could be calm and take his time because no matter what happened, Jesus would save his immortal soul.

When you're not afraid of death, it's often easy to forget Patton's philosophy: "The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his."

The last thing I EVER want to hear again from someone who's supposed to be watching my back is "it's okay Jesus, I'm ready to die."

Again, YMMV. Offer void in Utah.

[Midnight Son]

Lord have moicy, you are so full of yourself. Does it come naturally, or do you practise in front of a mirror? If you have any more pomposity for me, better hurry up; Monday Night Football starts soon.
Torpedoed, then claims victory from the bottom of the sea. And then you wonder why the Democrats continue to embarrass themselves against all odds.

Note to you: Accusing me of "pomposity", from your mouth with your words, means less than nothing. Give it a rest, army of one.

Good Morning. You're still a doofus. Oh, and I'm independent, not democrat.

[Anaxagoras]

Note to you: Accusing me of "pomposity", from your mouth with your words, means less than nothing. Give it a rest, army of one.

Normally I try to just ignore Lizard King, because his ethical thinking is incredibly sloppy and lazy, so it's not worth getting into it with him. But this... what the fuck?

So.... let me see if I've got this line of reasoning down. If some other mouth, using some other words, had called you "pompous", then it would mean more than nothing? In other words, if I call you a jack-ass (another mouth using other words), then it means something. (i.e. I have a good point) Your excessive (and incorrect) use of clauses is truly.... bewildering.

At least the army of one quip was mildly funny. Well, sorta.

[Lizard_King]

Normally I try to just ignore Lizard King, because his ethical thinking is incredibly sloppy and lazy, so it's not worth getting into it with him. But this... what the fuck?
Speaking of someone else in the third person while addressing them...ahh, you must be the voice of reason. Let us what Anannanananxanagoras has for us today.

So.... let me see if I've got this line of reasoning down. If some other mouth, using some other words, had called you "pompous", then it would mean more than nothing?
I realize this is earthshaking stuff. Allow me to be blunt. Had someone who was Not Pompous labeled me as such, or rather anyone who does not resort to excessively verbose ad hominems and logical fallacies in general as a matter of course, it might have meant something.
In other words, if I call you a jack-ass (another mouth using other words), then it means something. (i.e. I have a good point)
Sorry, that would only work if you were not the paramount example of a jackass. Do you catch the meaning now?

Your excessive (and incorrect) use of clauses is truly.... bewildering.
And your prissy grammar criticism is truly...uninteresting...ineffective... etc.


At least the army of one quip was mildly funny. Well, sorta.
I live but to serve. Oh, and nice job of totally evading the matter at hand, simply jumping in on the tag from a now even more incoherent Midnite for a quick "Fuck you, I disagree with your LIFE".

[Midnight Son]

One thing I'm not is pompous. One thing Lizard Boy is, is pompous. Anyway, I suppose we could go on like this forever...... :roll:

[Jason McCullough]

Dragging this away from the METAPOO, orbital & AP shots of Fallujah:

http://cryptome.org/fallujah-kill.htm

I swear it looks like they're invading Tulsa.