Arabic in schools

[Casper]

I heard (I think on the BBC though it might have been NPR) that, as speaking a common language opens a window of understanding, it would be a good idea to encourage Arabic language to be taught in US schools. It, and in most states along with Spanish, would be much much more useful than French or german. I think this is a great idea. Just think about all the confusion that would be solved by more americans speaking arabic. Certainly there would still be extremists who want to blow up americans to prove a point, but I'm sure it would go a long way in the battle for hearts and minds! In addition, if school kids have a head start in arabic, just think about how much less friction there would be in in-house raids in Iraq or whereever. At least some basic understanding.

Along with language, of course, goes culture. I studied french and we would cook french food and study french holidays and history (cursorily, of course, but at least SOEMTHING). It would go a long way towards understanding what is a very foreign culture for most americans.

The problem that I can see is that it humanizes the enemy, making it much harder to spread fear about the unkown. You can't call people inhuman monsters if you can understand them...the flip side: if you can't understand them, how can you a) address their concerns (however terribly they express them) or b) take steps to mitigate their concerns or c) fully destroy them. or d) whatever.

What do you think?

brian

[Gordon Cameron]

Sounds good to me, I'm all for it.

Though, what would American schools be like without...

"I need to go to the bathroom..."

"Uh-uh-uh!!! EN FRANCAIS!"

"Uh... Je... je... je veux... je doit..."

"Je VOUDRAIS ALLER AU SALLE DE BAIN."

I just dunno if it has the same ring in Arabic.

[Jakub]

Umm... I really, REALLY think that the problem is most likely on the end of the fanatics willing to blow themselves and innocents up, rather than Americans.

[Casper]

yeah, the problem is that they are willing to blow themselves up. Why do you think that is, though? I don't think it's because they're stupid or crazy. There are too many suicide bombings for the people who resort to doing that to be considered crazy.

The point that I was making was more that whoever you're at war with, I think you should do as much as you can to know as much as you can about the enemy.

Plus, from your post, it sounds like you're saying "It's the terrorists fault, so why should we have to change anything about what we're doing?" I would say that that's a rather simplistic way of looking at things.

brian

[Jakub]

yeah, the problem is that they are willing to blow themselves up. Why do you think that is, though? I don't think it's because they're stupid or crazy. There are too many suicide bombings for the people who resort to doing that to be considered crazy.

The point that I was making was more that whoever you're at war with, I think you should do as much as you can to know as much as you can about the enemy.

Plus, from your post, it sounds like you're saying "It's the terrorists fault, so why should we have to change anything about what we're doing?" I would say that that's a rather simplistic way of looking at things.

brian
Oh ok, so we should just give them whatever they want until they stop.

Right, that's gonna work.

No... first you beat them down, then you negotiate.

[Brian Rucker]

Might also be good to point out that, these days, it's not only the terrorists killing innocent people. Heck, they can't even keep up.

[Jakub]

Might also be good to point out that, these days, it's not only the terrorists killing innocent people. Heck, they can't even keep up.
No offense Brian, but at this point in the game, I'm happier if our side wins.

[Gordon Cameron]

Uh, I don't think the idea of learning Arabic is to appease "the terrorists." I think it's to facilitate a better cultural understanding between the West and the Islamic/Middle Eastern world.

It's possible to fight the people we need to fight, while at the same time adopting a stance other than total and absolute defiance toward the culture whence sprang "the terrorists."

[Brian Rucker]

Giving them propoganda was precisely what they want. Good work. Seriously, there was no doubt we'd win when the enemy was Al Qaida. If we turn the enemy into every Muslim in the world by killing off all these civilians then we have a real fight.

Fight smart. Unless you're one of the folks looking to spark The End Times?

[Jakub]

Uh, I don't think the idea of learning Arabic is to appease "the terrorists." I think it's to facilitate a better cultural understanding between the West and the Islamic/Middle Eastern world.
And how much understanding of our world do they have?

[Casper]

it's amazing to me how childish that sounds. "They aren't understanding US, so why should we try to understand them!?"

As other people have pointed out, think of how good it would look to the rest of the muslim/ arab world if the US started a proactive campaign to start learning about that world! Maybe it wouldn't change the minds of the people who are going to blow up innocents anyway (who could find a reason to do it no matter what we do), but it would sure go a long way towards making those hundreds of millions of arabs /muslims who feel wronged by the US and its policies feel better about us. At the very least, maybe it would make it harder for us to make such generalizations about them, which would lead to better relations all around, both between nations and individuals.

brian

[Natus]

No... first you beat them down, then you negotiate

Nice. That's a very irrational, hyper-macho way of not dealing with the situation. Poor, poor little boys. Don't you all know by NOW that we have neither the will or the materiel nor the manpower to "beat them all down", whomever they are? We have manpower shortages and historic deficits, not to mention enormous problems, just taking on IRAQ! We CAN'T attack anybody else! So, your big, red-state, Rambo beatdowns will have to wait, I'm afraid.

But why don't you help the beatdown cause, Jakub? What's a manly man like you doing not signed up? What are you doing here posting nonesense when you could be killing some A-rabs! Don't tell me you're not old enough! Bush needs you!

[Tim Partlett]

And how much understanding of our world do they have?

I bet you that the average Muslim has ten times more understanding of America than the other way around. You can't help but have a great deal of knowledge about America when it is such a media and economic powerhouse. It's like the way English people can understand every word that Americans say, because we watch so much American TV and film, but this does not work both ways.

The amount of ignorance I hear pouring out of otherwise intelligent Americans about what it is to be a Muslim is often flabbergasting.

[Jakub]

Do they really know that much about us?

Apparently we're well-known as the Great Satan. I guess that's something to know, though I somehow doubt it's actually a fact about the country.

[Duality]

There go those great generalizations again.

When you're on top like an American, there's no need to know about the rest of the world.

[Jakub]

There go those great generalizations again.

When you're on top like an American, there's no need to know about the rest of the world.
I disagree, I think Americans should know more about the world.

However, learning Arabic? Trying to understand people, many of whom attend mosques that spew hatred daily at America?

Heck, who knows, maybe you're right. Maybe Russians could have avoided the Great Patriotic War if only they'd learned German and tried to understand why Germans were being led to believe that Slavs were an inferior race, destined for slavery or extinction. Perhaps they could work out a compromise. Part-time slavery? Or how about the Russians retreat beyond the Ural mountains, give Germany its lebensraum? Could have saved a lot of lives, I admit.

[Post-It]

I wouldn't mind skipping the Arabic lessons if everyone in high school were required to just read this book:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1400030412/qid=1099930269/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/104-7355194-9089534?v=glance&s=books

It's not perfect and David Lamb certainly has his biases. However, he is rather forthright about them at the beginning of the book. More importantly it offers intimate insight to a culture of which Americans of little to no understanding.

If anyone wants a better understanding of the Arab world I cannot recommend this book highly enough.
________
Magic flight launch box (http://vaporizer.org/reviews/magic-flight-launch-box)

[steve]

We get taught French and/or Spanish in schools, and still hate the French and Mexicans. And we think of the former as cheese-eating surrender monkeys and the latter as lazy burrito eating macho lover types. So how does learning a language give you better understanding of a culture?

Anyway, I think it would make sense to teach more about Muslims--along with a lot of other cultures--in high school. I'm not sure what it has to do with learning the language, though.

[Prodigy]

You learned French, we learned English (and German), yet we're very different, and based on what I can see/hear here or there, I don't think we understand each other very well. So how would learning arabic would help you understand a culture that is far more different than ours ?

Edit : Aw crap, burned by steve.

[Casper]

just because you understand a culture doesn't mean you have to have a love in with the people of the culture!

Certainly teaching Muslim culture in schools is very important as is learning about other cultures besides US (even in that department, we don't do too well, eh?). The language argument went to learning the culture (while a few of you point out that even with language learning in place, there isn't appreciation for the other culture. I'd say that the language helps that appreciation - again, I don't mean that as "love fest" but rather understanding - take place. I don't think you can have a deep knowledge of another culture without knowing its language. So I think that at least starting to learn a foreign language is a good step on the road to appreciating that language's culture/thought patterns) but it also goes toward having more people who can simply communicate with people of the other culture. I did hear somewhere that the army is starved for reliable translators, maybe the CIA or FBI would be too.... for those hawks out there, you'd think it'd be a civic duty in the war against terrorism to know what the "enemy" is saying, right?

And for the people that say that the language learned in high school (and subsequently in college/university) does nothing to help the understanding between speakers, I would say that it probably goes further than you think. Prodigy is communicating in English, maybe not agreeing or understanding everything (as I might not be), but there's a point of contact there. Hell, I dont' agree or understand other people who speak English as a native language. That doesn't mean that I don't value it!

brian

[Anaxagoras]

Anyway, I think it would make sense to teach more about Muslims--along with a lot of other cultures--in high school. I'm not sure what it has to do with learning the language, though.

Well, in theory, learning a language is an excellent way to learn more about a culture, since language shapes how we think in many subtle ways.

Of course, you're right that in practice we don't use it as a cultural learning device.

[Duality]

We get taught French and/or Spanish in schools, and still hate the French and Mexicans. And we think of the former as cheese-eating surrender monkeys and the latter as lazy burrito eating macho lover types. So how does learning a language give you better understanding of a culture?
How many people that actually make a concerted effort at such courses still feel this way?

For the record, I do think there's more to it than simply teaching a language. There would certainly be students out there that would learn more about Islamic/Arabic culture through studying the language, but most would disregard it as a blow-off class like nearly every student I went to high school with.

I would, however; be interested to see what kind of reaction students and their parents would have if they found out their school was teaching Arabic in the foreign language dept.

[Brian Koontz]

Do they really know that much about us?

Apparently we're well-known as the Great Satan. I guess that's something to know, though I somehow doubt it's actually a fact about the country.

Its propaganda. Its easy to forget with all the propaganda going on in the US, but other countries have their own issues with truth.

With an ignorant populace, its easier for the government to call an entire country "The Great Satan" or "horrible terrorists" rather than have to deal with nuance and, you know, REALITY. I'd go so far to say that the more propaganda existing in a country, the lower the intelligence and knowledge of the inhabitants. If America was in dire danger of being annihilated however like the Arab world is, at least I could SEE why they'd be desperate enough to fall to propaganda. What's America's excuse?... that they might lose their Superpower status? Oh, cry me a fucking river.

Here's a humorous factoid for you... call a black person a "fried chicken eater" and a nearby liberal bites your head off... you're lucky if he only considers you the worst human on the planet. Call an Arab a "bloody terrorist" and that same liberal nods sagely at your wise intelligence.

The more the world changes, the more it stays the same.

Jakub, think for just a millisecond about the current Islamic condition. Plenty of people in the West simply prefer if Islam didn't exist. Muslims could probably handle that. Its a big planet after all. Ok, so the Neocons come along, take over Iraq and seek to turn it into a Western puppet. The Neocon Agenda, furthermore, includes as its main goal Western globalization, or at least the globalization of democracy (ironically enough, given the fascist overtones of the US government). This Agenda, furthermore, is being pursued through the executive branch of the US government, arguably the most powerful force in the world.

Invert this relationship. Say America is a bastion of democracy, surrounded by other small democratic nations. A large, powerful Islamic nation exists on the other side of the world, who heavily funds a small country near you that is staunchly Islamic, basically treating them as a local base, an island of Islam among the democratic heathens.

You think democracy is the cool beans and Islam sucks, and you're pretty scared of the world condition in general. You hear a governmental statement about that big Islamic country over there as "The Great Anti-Capitalist" and you start using the term. Maybe you begin training to be an Anti-Islamic freedom fighter (which their dominant media succeeds in labeling "terrorist") (its not like you're going to join an official army to fight them, that would be suicide) and soon after that country gets new leaders who invade your country, seeking to destroy resistance and set up an Islamic puppet government, with the ultimate goal to annihilate democracy. Lets just say that whatever actions you take from this point are not extremism nor are they terrorism... they are the result of desperation. If you truly love democracy, you'd be willing to do a lot, including murder of innocents, to ensure it does not die. Heck, Bush is willing to kill hundreds of thousands of innocents (for starters) just to try to give democracy a little MORE power! Think about that for a second. Bush is right now the world's greatest terrorist. Err, "freedom fighter".

I'm not even necessarily against the destruction of Islam, at least if there was something else to prevent globalization. I'm ALWAYS against the annihilation of anything, however. The difference between destruction and annihilation is that destroyers understand what they kill, and annihilators are ignorant of what they kill. If you're ignorant of what you kill how can you be sure YOU shouldn't be the one to die? "May the best man win"... you can't know who the best man is unless you understand him.

But again, Islam is the only major force right now preventing globalization. Destroying Islam is not like Rome destroying the barbarian hordes. If you thought America in the '50s was bad, the same-o same-o culture of conformity, just wait until the entire world is ruled by ONE worldview, ONE government. You haven't fucking SEEN conformity yet, and hopefully we'll never see it.

Finally, lets say the world does go global. One worldview, one government. Lets say furthermore (as of course it would) that a different worldview, perhaps a different system, emerges. Likely out of some dissatisfaction with the prevailing (that is to say, the ONLY) worldview. Perhaps this system wants to secede (after all, its incompatible with the dominant worldview and it makes no sense to have it be considered part of that worldview).

As many humans who are brainless supporters of "their" worldview right now, on both sides of oceans, what you do think a person like Jakub thinks about this "new" worldview?

Kill it. Its not us. We're inherently the best. Kill it.

Or, if a bit more cruel, "Prevent it from succeeding. Force it to conform. Its ignorant, ill-advised, wrong. Why can't it see the truth? If it can't see the truth, we must make it."

[Casper]

We get taught French and/or Spanish in schools, and still hate the French and Mexicans. And we think of the former as cheese-eating surrender monkeys and the latter as lazy burrito eating macho lover types. So how does learning a language give you better understanding of a culture?
How many people that actually make a concerted effort at such courses still feel this way?

For the record, I do think there's more to it than simply teaching a language. There would certainly be students out there that would learn more about Islamic/Arabic culture through studying the language, but most would disregard it as a blow-off class like nearly every student I went to high school with.

I would, however; be interested to see what kind of reaction students and their parents would have if they found out their school was teaching Arabic in the foreign language dept.

I completely agree with you. On the otherhand, I pretty much blew off my 3 years of high school french and was still able to get by with it when I went to Franch for a week. Did I speak perfectly? no way. Was I understood? sometimes. Did people (yes I am talking about french people) respect me for trying to speak french? absolutely.

[Oghier]

Unless you plan a career in the oil business, would learning Arabic really be useful for anyone? Learning spanish is useful in many parts of the US, chinese or japanese can get you hired by many companies, and italian will impress the heck out of your date.

But... Arabic? I suppose it would be interesting to read Arabic news sites, but the odds of me travelling to the mid-east are somewhere between zero and zero. Perhaps, in the very long term, it might help foster some understanding. But, frankly, the only thing most Americans want to learn about Arab culture is 'What is the fastest way to stop them from blowing stuff up?'

[MikeTwain]

I took Spanish for four years and French for three and I think that the French stink and Mexicans are great.

I also took Arabic for four years. Learned a lot about Arabs and Islam and the Middle East. Still don't understand why Arab and Middle Eastern culture is so repressive.

Maybe I just needed one more year of French, but I could take 20 more years of Arabic and not understand why women have to wear a burkha.

[Jason McCullough]

Maybe I just needed one more year of French, but I could take 20 more years of Arabic and not understand why women have to wear a burkha.

http://www.fashion-era.com/mid-late_victorian_fashion.htm

[MikeTwain]

:roll:

[Dirt]

In another 50 to 100 years this conversation will all be irrelevant because everyone will be learning Chinese.

[Dirt]

I also took Arabic for four years. Learned a lot about Arabs and Islam and the Middle East. Still don't understand why Arab and Middle Eastern culture is so repressive.

Maybe I just needed one more year of French, but I could take 20 more years of Arabic and not understand why women have to wear a burkha.
Would you say it was more the Arabic Culture or the Muslim Religion?

[Natus]

Maybe I just needed one more year of French, but I could take 20 more years of Arabic and not understand why women have to wear a burkha.

Yeah, well, I wonder why Jewish Orthodox women aren't allowed to show their hair and must dress (as Orthodox men do) in certain ways, and I also wonder how Christian fundamentalists hate fundamentalist Muslims soi much when they have so much in common![/quote]

[Shiroko]

We learn some Arabic in Israel...

Didn't get us too far... did it?

-Shiroko

[Lizard_King]

We learn some Arabic in Israel...

Didn't get us too far... did it?

-Shiroko
That's because you didn't appease sufficiently. Don't you know anything?

It is an impressive mixture of American self-loathing and obvious foreign dislike that this thread has brought together. I guess it is not for nothing that the basics of rhetoric include a healthy respect for the danger of mistaking a grain of truth (American lack of understanding of the Arab world, say) for entirety of the issue.

I'd say once America gets the whole English language thing under control, we should feel free to take on challenging foreign languages. Somehow, I think straightening out our own difficulties with semantics and comprehension would do far more to ease our problems with the rest of the world.

Also, to those of you alleging the relative worldliness of the Arab street, and by implication probably laying awake at night fantasizing about the sophisticated worldviews of Europeans and whatnot, I say you have to live in many different places (or at least two truly different ones) to appreciate that different flavours of ignorance are not necessarily superior or inferior to one another. Just different. Most people don't have the luxury of moving around that much, and in any case I am not sure it makes the waters any clearer. But it does give you a realistic desire that we focus on acceptable, compatible level of ignorance rather than fantastical delusions of what people should be asked to know about one another.

[Jason McCullough]

Your fantasies of our views must be comforting.

[shift6]

American religious fanatics = stupid ignorant redneck fucks.
Islamic religious fanatics = misunderstood.

[Toddy]

And how much understanding of our world do they have?

I bet you that the average Muslim has ten times more understanding of America than the other way around. You can't help but have a great deal of knowledge about America when it is such a media and economic powerhouse. It's like the way English people can understand every word that Americans say, because we watch so much American TV and film, but this does not work both ways.

The amount of ignorance I hear pouring out of otherwise intelligent Americans about what it is to be a Muslim is often flabbergasting.

Now, Tim, this is perhaps the stupidest post you've made in, oh, the past 24 hours. Arabs probably know more about America that the the reverse, thanks simply to TV. But they sure don't understand the West. At all. Try actually going to the Middle East and hanging out with people our age for a few months. You'll soon realize that their beliefs about us are at least as distorted as ours are about them.

[Toddy]

I heard (I think on the BBC though it might have been NPR) that, as speaking a common language opens a window of understanding, it would be a good idea to encourage Arabic language to be taught in US schools. It, and in most states along with Spanish, would be much much more useful than French or german. I think this is a great idea. Just think about all the confusion that would be solved by more americans speaking arabic.

One big problem with this -- Arabic isn't French or German. It uses a different alphabet, of course, and is a very difficult language to learn. I assume you're talking about bringing it into elementary and high schools, and I think that would be pretty much impossible due to the sheer challenge of teaching it. With French, German, and Spanish, you can branch out to it from English. It's a hell of a lot more difficult to that with Arabic. Also, where would you get people qualified to teach Arabic? They can't even find enough Arabic speakers in the US for high-paying government positions, let alone enough willing to take $30,000 a year to teach the language in high school.

Also, are you not aware that there are big differences between the forms of Arabic spoken in different regions? What they speak in the Gulf states, for instance, is a lot different than what they speak in Egypt, and of course the classical Arabic that would be taught in a formal school setting is pretty far removed from everything. So it's not like somebody's going to go directly from Grade 10 Arabic to understanding what the women are wailing in Falljuah after you boot down their door.

Cultural stuff, though, sure. That'd be a great idea. The Middle East really is a wonderful place, filled with some of the friendliest, most open people on the planet. If someone gave me a plane ticket tomorrow--er, to anyplace in the Middle East except Iraq--I'd go back there in a minute. More people in the West need to be aware of the region's good qualities. Only problem is, it's not our job to reeducate ourselves. Arabs need to take responsibility for their image crisis, and maybe stop blowing themselves up and cutting off heads. Then maybe more people would have an open mind when it comes to Islam and Arab cultures.

[Brian Koontz]

Arabs need to take responsibility for their image crisis, and maybe stop blowing themselves up and cutting off heads. Then maybe more people would have an open mind when it comes to Islam and Arab cultures.

Those words had some relevance before the Neocons took power. Not anymore.

The Neocons aren't going to be impressed by niceties and negotiation. They only respect militant power.

How about: End to Neocon aggression, projects which aid in mutual understanding, and then political pressure can be put on groups like Al Qaeda. Because there won't be a *need* for Al Qaeda any longer.

Right now a gun is being put to the heads of Islams, and you are asking them to bow their heads and await the trigger pull.

Remove the gun, then talk, and its amazing how "civilized" Muslims will then become.

[Casper]

I heard (I think on the BBC though it might have been NPR) that, as speaking a common language opens a window of understanding, it would be a good idea to encourage Arabic language to be taught in US schools. It, and in most states along with Spanish, would be much much more useful than French or german. I think this is a great idea. Just think about all the confusion that would be solved by more americans speaking arabic.

One big problem with this -- Arabic isn't French or German. It uses a different alphabet, of course, and is a very difficult language to learn. I assume you're talking about bringing it into elementary and high schools, and I think that would be pretty much impossible due to the sheer challenge of teaching it. With French, German, and Spanish, you can branch out to it from English. It's a hell of a lot more difficult to that with Arabic. Also, where would you get people qualified to teach Arabic? They can't even find enough Arabic speakers in the US for high-paying government positions, let alone enough willing to take $30,000 a year to teach the language in high school.

Also, are you not aware that there are big differences between the forms of Arabic spoken in different regions? What they speak in the Gulf states, for instance, is a lot different than what they speak in Egypt, and of course the classical Arabic that would be taught in a formal school setting is pretty far removed from everything. So it's not like somebody's going to go directly from Grade 10 Arabic to understanding what the women are wailing in Falljuah after you boot down their door.

Cultural stuff, though, sure. That'd be a great idea. The Middle East really is a wonderful place, filled with some of the friendliest, most open people on the planet. If someone gave me a plane ticket tomorrow--er, to anyplace in the Middle East except Iraq--I'd go back there in a minute. More people in the West need to be aware of the region's good qualities. Only problem is, it's not our job to reeducate ourselves. Arabs need to take responsibility for their image crisis, and maybe stop blowing themselves up and cutting off heads. Then maybe more people would have an open mind when it comes to Islam and Arab cultures.

to be honest, I assumed that there would be different forms. I'm not very well versed in all the different varieties that exist, but can accept that choosing one and teaching it would present difficulties. I also think that, like many people point out, it wouldn't solve anything, per se, but the idea behind it, to do something proactive besides military strikes to try to bridge the gap from our side would be good. If it's just teaching more history, culture, geography etc, fine. That'd be fine with me.

As for it's relevance to high-school/elementary kids and the difficulty it presents, I also would defer to your experience of it. It certainly looks hard to me and sounds very different. Then again, I moved to Prague and now speak Czech fairly fluently, which is also supposed to be pretty difficult. The thing about the czechs, and I'd assume the arabic speakers (if you'll allow me to generalize about them) is that they're extremely forgiving and encouraging about non-native speakers speaking their language. Maybe this wouldn't be the case in Arab countries, but the czechs fall all over themselves to tell you how well you're doing. Is it different than a class of US high-school students not giving two shits about whether they're doing it right or not? of course.

I still think it's an interesting discussion though, and I'm glad to read constructive critizism of it rather than Jakubs "Kill all them fuckers" posts.

brian

[Tim Partlett]

Now, Tim, this is perhaps the stupidest post you've made in, oh, the past 24 hours. Arabs probably know more about America that the the reverse, thanks simply to TV. But they sure don't understand the West. At all. Try actually going to the Middle East and hanging out with people our age for a few months. You'll soon realize that their beliefs about us are at least as distorted as ours are about them.

First of all, since when did all Muslims live in the Middle East. Secondly when was the last time you were hanging out in the Middle East, or with a Muslim for that matter. When I was in Indonesia the level of understanding of the average Indonesian in regard to my own country was very low. One was even surprised to learn that Germany and England were different countries that had been to war with each other. When it came to America, however, they knew plenty. They had American TV shows, film, sport and news beamed into houses all across the country, even out in the sticks. Most of the countries in the Middle East are far more advanced than the average Indonesian.

Do you think the average American could place Indonesia, or even Iraq, on a map of the world? When is the last time you watched any TV or movie from an Muslim country, or even from outside the West? Do you think many Americans ever watch this kind of TV?

[Prodigy]

Prodigy is communicating in English, maybe not agreeing or understanding everything (as I might not be)

The understanding is fine, really, the talking is more difficult :p

[marxeil]

We learn some Arabic in Israel...

Didn't get us too far... did it?

-Shiroko

It's no surprise considring most of us learn Arabic in Gaza :wink:

[Enidigm]

Now, Tim, this is perhaps the stupidest post you've made in, oh, the past 24 hours. Arabs probably know more about America that the the reverse, thanks simply to TV. But they sure don't understand the West. At all. Try actually going to the Middle East and hanging out with people our age for a few months. You'll soon realize that their beliefs about us are at least as distorted as ours are about them.

First of all, since when did all Muslims live in the Middle East. Secondly when was the last time you were hanging out in the Middle East, or with a Muslim for that matter. When I was in Indonesia the level of understanding of the average Indonesian in regard to my own country was very low. One was even surprised to learn that Germany and England were different countries that had been to war with each other. When it came to America, however, they knew plenty. They had American TV shows, film, sport and news beamed into houses all across the country, even out in the sticks. Most of the countries in the Middle East are far more advanced than the average Indonesian.

Do you think the average American could place Indonesia, or even Iraq, on a map of the world? When is the last time you watched any TV or movie from an Muslim country, or even from outside the West? Do you think many Americans ever watch this kind of TV?

The average American won't watch Indonesian TV because odds are Indonesian TV and cinema are crap compared to what they can get without effort at home. Those are not particularly good examples imo of a lack of cultural awareness; especially since most native productions are probably just rip-offs of American series that have come before. America is after all still the super-hyper-juggernaught of mass media.

Its insularity that Europeans are often forgetful of whenever exasperated by some new example of American stupidity. America is so damn big the vast majority will never leave the country, and those that do will only go for some drunken hedonistic vacation in Mexico, or that required WASP'y European trip after a honeymoon or graduation. For the vast majority learning a foreign language offers zero practical utility. They have a hard enough time teaching Spanish to Texas kids even when 50% of the state is Hispanic; is anyone going to remember Arabic? I don't really think a couple of World Civics classes during secondary education are going to change anything fundamental, although it might make certain groups feel better about themselves.