TMQ/ LOTR: Someone here should...

[hido]

... be able to answer this one:

"Question for "Ring" aficionados: At the fire-mountain Orodruin, the sinister Sauron once made an all-powerful ring, which was lost for an age; now he wants it back, the fate of Middle Earth hanging in the balance. Why doesn't Sauron just make another ring? Even the presumably encyclopedic Encyclopedia of Arda couldn't answer that one."

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/tmq/021203.html

[Met_K]

Well, ah, there's always the small problem of him not actually existing to make another one...

[Ben Sones]

Because, theoretically, he put most of his power into the old one so that he could control the other races of Middle Earth. Without the One Ring, he lacks the strength to make another ring of power (or even to appear in physical form after the White Council kicked him out of Dol Guldur).

[Desslock]

Because, theoretically, he put most of his power into the old one so that he could control the other races of Middle Earth. Without the One Ring, he lacks the strength to make another ring of power (or even to appear in physical form after the White Council kicked him out of Dol Guldur).

That's right -- he became symbiotically linked to the ring with its creation. He pored a lot of his essence into it.

I don't think Sauron ever regained physical form after being defeated at the end of the Second Age - he was the "necromancer" in the Hobbit, but his essence was just driven out of Dol Guldor at the end of the Hobbit (although that's not explained until the later books).

[Met_K]

I don't think Sauron ever regained physical form after being defeated at the end of the Second Age - he was the "necromancer" in the Hobbit, but his essence was just driven out of Dol Guldor at the end of the Hobbit (although that's not explained until the later books).

He never regains physical form, he instead takes control of others through the ring, or through the corruption the ring and all things tainted (such as the palantiri stones) have upon those who dare use them.

[Bub, Andrew]

I thought it had something to do with the One Ring being made (secretly) at the same time as the other rings. The 9 for humans, the 7 for Dwarves, and the 3 for Bruce Geryk.

Let's say he could make a new Ring, would it "rule them all and" y'know, "bind them"?

As an aside, TMQ is pissing me off lately with his blog like random asides about anything and everything unrelated to Football. The column was better on Slate.

[Mark Asher]

He used up all his dilithium crystals making the first one!

[Desslock]

I thought it had something to do with the One Ring being made (secretly) at the same time as the other rings. The 9 for humans, the 7 for Dwarves, and the 3 for Bruce Geryk. Let's say he could make a new Ring, would it "rule them all and" y'know, "bind them"

They weren't made at the same time, and he never even touched the Elven ones.

[Bub, Andrew]

You've read (studied) all the background Desslock, how did he corrupt the nine human rings, what's up with the Dwarf rings, and how did he bend the others to the One Ring's will? The poem is all I'm going from and it sounds like, in there, that they were made at the same time.

I think one of the greatest thrills from the move was hearing McKellan recite the poem. Particularly they way he says "Bind Them!"

[Met_K]

He couldn't touch the Elven ones because they never showed him how. Part of his knowledge that comes from forging the One Ring came from the elves, when Sauron was under another form. The Elves didn't completely trust this person, though, and thus they didn't tell all.

Not that this really tells you anything, and I'm sure Desslock will fix all (and probably make my rescind this statement for it's complete and utter lack of complexity in regards for what happened). :)

[Desslock]

You've read (studied) all the background Desslock, how did he corrupt the nine human rings, what's up with the Dwarf rings, and how did he bend the others to the One Ring's will? The poem is all I'm going from and it sounds like, in there, that they were made at the same time. I think one of the greatest thrills from the move was hearing McKellan recite the poem. Particularly they way he says "Bind Them!"

Heh, I liked that too. It great when, in the extended edition, he recites the poem in the speech of Mordor at the council of Enrond.

Here's the deal on the rings -- Sauron was one of the spirits (Maia) that sided with the "fallen angel", Melkor (Morgoth) in the first age. He was a powerful sorcerer. At the end of the first age, when the rest of the angels captured Melkor and threw him in the void "until the end-time", Sauron briefly flirted with redemption, but eventually settled back to his old ways in Mordor. He conquered most of Middle Earth, except for a small area around the Grey Havens, which was defended by the elves, led by their last high king, Gil Galad. Humans on Middle Earth had descended into barbarism, except for a few "elf friends", who had been given their own land -- the island of Numenor, near the "west" (Valinor, the "heaven" of the elves).

Numenor, due to its isolation from Middle Earth and proximity to Valinor, became tremendously powerful, and ended up assembling a massive fleet to attack Sauron. It easily crushed Sauron's forces, and took Sauron back to Numenor, somewhat voluntarily. Sauron eventually corrupted Numenor and led to its downfall by convincing Numenor to attack Valinor. Numenor "Atlantis" sank, which caused Sauron to lose his body but his essence returned to Mordor and eventually reformed into a physical body. Sauron had already made the "one ring" at the time he lost his body in Numenor, and Tolkien never explained how the ring wasn't lost with Sauron's body (two letter of Tolkien shed some light at to his thinking -- it was either left in Mordor when he was captured, or it was just magically transported with his spirit).

Anyway, prior to being captured by the Numenoreans, Sauron was a great gift-giver in the Second Age when in Middle Earth, and until the loss of his first physical form, he was capable of appearing in the form of a very beautiful, charismatic figure. Known as the "Deceiver" by the elves, he gave the barbarian human tribes inventions and knowledge and earned they greedily began to heed his words. There was an Elven settlement just west of Moria (which is why the mine door had an Elven password), called Eregion, which was established by Galadriel, Celeborn and Celembrimbor. The elves in this settlement were very close friends to the dwarves in Moria, and were far more interested in many dwarven pursuits than most elves (like forging, etc.). Celembrimbor, in particular, was a master craftsman, who fashioned many elven artifacts.

The elves of Eregion found Sauron's secrets of craftsmanship irresistable. Sauron and Celembrimbor and the elves crafted the 9 rings that would be given to human kings, as well as the 7 that would be given to the dwarves (there were also many unnamed lesser rings -- the ones in the poem are just the "great rings"). Upon doing so, Sauron returned to Mordor. While he left, Celembrimbor crafted the three elven rings, using the knowledge he had acquired -- one was given to Galadriel, one to Gil-galad, and one to the leader of the Grey Havens, Cirdon. These rings were powerful, but since Sauron hadn't had a hand in crafting them, they didn't have the same link to the "spirit world" as his rings had -- as a result, they didn't turn their wearers invisible, and he had no influence over them. He used a great deal of his power to craft the one ring, which could dominate the other rings that had a connection to the spirit world, creating a symbiotic relationship between himself and the ring.

The humans who were given the rings used their power of invisibilty to acquire great power and stature, but eventually they became permanently drawn into the spirit world and are therefore invisible. The dwarves proved immune to the pull of the spirit world, and therefore couldn't use the rings to turn invisible (although presumably those rings could be used in that fashion by other races) -- as a result, they weren't corrupted, but it did make them more greedy, which made them wealthy but reckless, and ultimately led to their destruction -- four of them were consumed by dragons, while the other three were eventually reacquired by Sauron.

Another key point is that Sauron initially never intended to give any rings to the dwarves or humans -- he just wanted to corrupt the elves. After crafting the One Ring, Sauron launched his attack on Middle Earth, which would eventually be stopped by the Numenoreans, as described above. Before he was stopped, however, he destroyed Eregion and seized all of the Great Rings other than the three elven ones. Sauron then gave the 9 rings to the humans, and 7 to dwarves -- they used them to gain power (humans) or destruction (dwarves) when Sauron was a prisoner and then advisor in Numenor for hundreds of years.

Finally, when Sauron's spirit returned from the destruction of Numenor, he was no longer capable of assuming a beautiful or charismatic form -- just a terrible one. Realizing that he could no longer deceive, and now that Numenor could no longer oppose him, he assembled a massive force led by the 9, who had now become Nazgul, and attacked the rest of Middle Earth. The Elves led by Gil-Galad and the two remaining Numenor settlements, Gondor and Arnor (which is located where the Shire is) and some dwarves allied in the "Last Alliance" to defeat Sauron in a lengthy campaign. In the final battle, Gil-Galad was killed, as was the King of Gondor Elendil -- his son, the king of Arnor, Isildur, cut the ring off of Sauron, and that ended the second age.

What of the three elven rings? Galadriel kept hers, Gil-Galad's was given to Elrond, and Cirdon gave his to Gandalf during the Third Age.

Now you know the rest of the story.
Yes, I'm a fanatic.

Stefan

[DavidCPA]

Desslock,

I am in awe :o

-DavidCPA

[Bub, Andrew]

Nicely done and thank you.
I see the Scandavian inspiration there. Particularly Loki as Sauron.

[Wholly Schmidt]

From some research I did yesterday, I got the impression that the one ring did have some power over the three elven rings, but that the elves caught on. From this website (http://tolkien.cro.net/rings/keepers.html), the following quote from the Silmarillion:

"But the Elves were not so lightly to be caught. As soon as Sauron set the One Ring upon his finger they were aware of him; and they knew him, and perceived that he would be master of them, and of all that they wrought. Then in anger and fear they took off their rings."
It doesn't say on that site, but I assumed then the elves then began using the rings again once Sauron was defeated in the "last alliance" battle. Is this correct? I really want to read the Silmarillion now...

[Chris]

My understanding is that the Elven rings were not used openly and that Sauron could corrupt the work done with them through the power of the One Ring.

The Silmarillion is fantastic if you are interested at all in the history of Middle-Earth and in particular the history of the Elves. I would advise skipping the beginning section, or at least skimming it. It is a tough read.


edited for grammar

[milo]

A couple of additional points:

The three elven rings, Nenya, Narya, and Vilya, weren't about power because those who created them (mainly Celebrimbor son of Curufin) wasn't primarily interested in power but in enlightenment. The elven rings of water, fire, and air bring wisdom to their wearers.

According to Galadriel in FOTR, the destruction of the One Ring will also lessen the power of the Three. Frodo the Ringbearer is able to perceive Galadriel's ring, while Sam cannot. She also makes it seem that if Sauron were to regain the One, he could use it to control the Three.

And it is spelled "Círdan" the Shipwright. He entrusted Narya the Ring of Fire to Gandalf. After the destruction of the One Ring at the end of the third age, Gandalf, Elrond, and Galadriel took the three elven rings with them on "the straight road" to Valinor, the Blessed Realm in the uttermost west.

[Tom Chick]

To quote Met_K by way of Sparky:

http://www.phobe.com/what_the.jpg

-Tom

[Met_K]

To quote Met_K by way of Sparky:

http://www.phobe.com/what_the.jpg

But, oh hell, for humor's sake:

What in the god damn fucking hell are you shitheads talking about? Babbling on about a bunch of mother fucking rings? Jesus Christ, what a bunch of pussies! The rings don't even have a skull or a gemstone on it! What kind of fucktard wears a ring if it doesn't strike fear into the hearts of their enemies? Damn. Just damn.

Pussies.

That would be funny if, you know, I didn't know what they were talking about, but, you see... I do.

Edited so Tyjenks doesn't cry.

[Tyjenks]

I do not think I know as much about any one topic I have ever come across as you guys do about this. Impressive. Or maybe I am just a moron.


Tom, I am sending that figurine out as a Christmas gift to all of my friends and family.

[DavidCPA]

Heh, Tom knows Photoshop. Or at least how to find funny things on the net.

-DavidCPA

[Tyjenks]

What in the god damn fucking hell are you shitheads talking about? Babbling on about a bunch of mother fucking rings? Jesus Christ, what a bunch of pussies! The rings don't even have a skull or a gemstone on it! What kind of fucktard wears a ring if it doesn't strike fear into the hearts of their enemies? Damn. Just damn.

Pussies.

Yeah, um...I don't think it counts if you put a disclaimer up about your knowledge of the subject at hand during the pre-rant portion of your post.

[Ben Sones]

The theory, as I remember, is that while Sauron never touched the Three, they were made by the same craft as the rest of the Great Rings, and therefor if Sauron regained the One Ring and exerted his full power, even the elves would fall under his thrall. Likewise, the elves (Galadriel speaks about this in particular, I think) are not entirely sure what will happen after the One is destroyed. It could be, Galadriel says, that the Three and all the works accomplished through their power would remain as they are. But she goes on to say that she doesn't think this is very likely, and that what will probably happen is that all of the Great Rings will lose their potency, and the works accomplished with them will fade, and the elves will be forced to depart Middle Earth for Valinor (or live out their days in a land that is now little more than a shadow of what it once was to them... a dreary prospect, considering that the elves are immortal).

Of course, the latter is what happens.

[Tyjenks]

Heh, Tom knows Photoshop. Or at least how to find funny things on the net.

-DavidCPA

Sparky did that during a crazy computer games and architecture as art debate after Met K showed up and exclaimed that very quote.

Sorry for screwing up the thread. Tom started it.

[Met_K]

Heh, Tom knows Photoshop. Or at least how to find funny things on the net.

-DavidCPA

Sparky did that during a crazy computer games and architecture as art debate after Met K showed up and exclaimed that very quote.

God bless her soul.

[Tom Chick]

Sorry for screwing up the thread. Tom started it.

I felt left out. Plus I miss Sparky.

-Tom

[Tyjenks]

Sorry for screwing up the thread. Tom started it.

I felt left out. Plus I miss Sparky.

-Tom

I miss Greg Lannes.

[Desslock]

It doesn't say on that site, but I assumed then the elves then began using the rings again once Sauron was defeated in the "last alliance" battle. Is this correct? I really want to read the Silmarillion now...

That's correct - the Elves didn't wear the rings in the Second Age when Sauron had the One Ring. In case my Tome wasn't clear -- the One Ring could still influence, and presumably eventually control, the Elven Rings. They were subject to the will of the one ring, because they were created through the same process. They just didn't cause corruption on their own, since they weren't sullied with Sauron's essence. It's very clear in Tolkien's writings that the wearer of the One Ring could not only see everything done by the other ring wearers, but also govern the thoughts of those wearers. It's the "binding" of the poem.

As someone else posted, the Elven rings weren't constructed for power or war, like the other rings - they instead were forces of healing and preservation, reflecting their Elven creator's intent. Even though they weren't overtly corruptive, they still weren't necessarily "good", since they disrupted the natural order of things.

The other rings were rendered powerless by the destruction of the ring, as Ben indicated.

Uh, one other nit -- aside from misspelling Cirdan, I should have noted that he acquired his ring from Gil-Gilad, who originally had two of the three Elven rings (the other went to Elrond when Gil-Gilad was killed at the end of the Second Age).

Stefan

[Brad Grenz]

Hey Desslock, where'd the Hobbits come from? And what happened to the Entwives?

[Bub, Andrew]

Plus I miss Sparky.


What the hell happened to Xtien Murawski, better known as Amanpour? Damn, he was fake right? I sent a free extra copy of Sacrifice I had lying around to a fake character right?

[Desslock]

Hey Desslock, where'd the Hobbits come from? And what happened to the Entwives?

Hobbits were humans, who just happened to be small in stature and have other unique features (healthy appetites, hairy feet, good-nature). They "just appeared" in the Kingdom of Arnor, the northern settlement of the Numenoreans -- they generally stayed out of affairs and weren't noticed, although they did send some warriors to help fight the Witch-king of the Nazgul, in the war when Angmar managed to bring down Arnor (which had split into three following Isildur's death) in the middle of the Third Age (which caused the line of Kings to wander off and become Rangers). So unlike the Elves, Dwarves, humans, orcs and Ents, the hobbits weren't created by the Ainur (angels) - they just naturally evolved from humans.

The question of the Entwives was never answered in any of the books. Tolkien casually suggested on various occassions (including in his published letters), that they had been destroyed at the end of the Second Age by Sauron, during the rampage that was eventually defeated by the alliance led by Gil-Gilad. No happy endings for the Ents.

Stefan

[Ben Sones]

I used to have a theory that Goldberry was actually an Entwife. Tolkien keeps her nature fairly mysterious in the books, but she does fit the description that Treebeard recites to Pippin and Merry pretty closely.

No idea if it's true. Tolkien was pretty vague about the fate of the Entwives, even in his letters. Other people have posited that both Goldberry and Tom Bombadil are Maiar, but I seriously doubt that.

[Tom Chick]

What the hell happened to Xtien Murawski, better known as Amanpour?

The question of the Amanpour was never answered in any of the books. Tolkien casually suggested on various occassions (including in his published letters), that he had been destroyed at the end of the Second Age by Sauron, during the rampage that was eventually defeated by the alliance led by Gil-Gilad. No happy endings for Amanpour.

-Tom

[Desslock]

What the hell happened to Xtien Murawski, better known as Amanpour?

The question of the Amanpour was never answered in any of the books. Tolkien casually suggested on various occassions (including in his published letters), that he had been destroyed at the end of the Second Age by Sauron, during the rampage that was eventually defeated by the alliance led by Gil-Gilad. No happy endings for Amanpour.

Another example of the rampant plagerism among game writers. You could have, at least, replaced "Tolkien" with Bauman or something. Then I'd never be able to prove anything.

[Tom Chick]

Oh, umm, no, we just had similar ideas, you see. Either that, or maybe I read your articull and unconsciously repeated some of the ideas I'd read. You see. Really. Honest.

-Tom

[wumpus]

Spelling errors. Joking. Hilarious.

[Sparky]

I felt left out. Plus I miss Sparky.
But Tom...how can you miss me if I won't go away? I was just working on my line of Qt3-themed Christmas tree ornaments (http://www.phobe.com/qt3xmas.jpg). Naturally, there will be one with Derek Smart's head on it, but I'm not sure which context-free quote would be the most suitably festive:

"Yeah well, I think you're a total and complete twat. Does that mean you're going to go to bed tonite worrying about what I think?"
or
"Well thank you very much, retard. Besides, I wasn't even talking to you, bitch."
or the short-but-sweet
"So yes, I am excited. Wanna feel my nipples?"

Any thoughts before I heat up the glue gun?

[Kool Moe Dee]

Naturally, there will be one with Derek Smart's head on it, but I'm not sure which context-free quote would be the most suitably festive:

Any thoughts before I heat up the glue gun?

Make a poll. :)

BTW, I'm hoping there's also a "Yawn" in the collection...

[Nick Hyle]

Christ Sparky, you almost cost me a keyboard there.

[Jason Cross]

And for those of us who aren't major Middle Earth scolars and just want to know what the hell is going on in the movies:

It's because Gandalf has the fire ring from the three given to the elves that he defeats the Balrog, right? He makes a speech in the movie about being the "keeper of the secret flame" and all that, and calls out its name and stuff. It's cool, but at the time if you don't know the whole story, you're like "what the hell is Gandalf babbling about? Is that just magic words or something?"

Someone once told me it's because of that ring that he didn't die when he fell into shadow, too. Not sure how that all works, but I'd bet Desslock does. :)

[Jason McCullough]

Oh, I agree with the original poster that TMQ has been phoning it in (having to explain a chemistry joke was the low point). The last two weeks or so were better, though.

[Ben Sones]

Someone once told me it's because of that ring that he didn't die when he fell into shadow, too. Not sure how that all works, but I'd bet Desslock does. :)

Yeah, it probably didn't hurt. And yes, the "flame of Arnor" that he refers to is Narya, the Elven ring of Fire. Which is why, in the books, Galadriel seems somewhat unperturbed when the fellowship tells her that Gandalf is dead. She knows that he isn't.

[Anonymous]

According to the Encyclopedia of Arda (www.glyphweb.com/arda/g/gandalf.html), Gandalf did die fighting the Balrog. His spirit was retured to Middle earth to continue his task.

[Murph]

Yeah, when I re-read The Two Towers recently and came to that part of the book, that's the impression I got, too. At least, I think that's where I read that.

Anyway, that's what I remember reading somewhere pretty recently. He did, technically, "die," but was brought back.

[Anonymous]

I had to double check, but in the book "Unfinished Tales", in the on Istari chapter exists this paragraph.


Yet it is said that in the ending of the task for which he had came he suffered greatly, and was slain, and being sent back from death for a brief while was clothed then in white, and became a radiant flame (yet veiled still save in great need). And when all was over and the Shadow of Sauron was removed, he departed for ever over the Sea.

Flavius

[Desslock]

Someone once told me it's because of that ring that he didn't die when he fell into shadow, too. Not sure how that all works, but I'd bet Desslock does. :)

Heh, he actually does die -- not from the fall, but from the fight with the Balrog after the fall. But he is sent back by the "angels" to finish his task.

[Reeko]

And what happened to the Entwives?

If I remember correctly, and I'm sure I will be corrected if I don't, the orcs were crafted by Sauron by twisting and corrupting captured elves (sort of a magical genetic engineering). I believe the quote was "he cannot create, he can only destroy" or somesuch. Anywho, my theory has always been that trolls were the product of the same process, except using ents instead of elves.

Again, IIRC, Treebeard said that the Entwives had left voluntarily for more lush settings than the old-growth forests that the Ents preffered. They just never came back.

Now, to tie these things together, could Sauron have lured the Entwives away under the false promise of beautiful gardens, only to ensnare them, for use in creating trolls? The world may never know.

You know, I'm a bigger geek than even my wife knows.

[Anonymous]

If I remember correctly, and I'm sure I will be corrected if I don't, the orcs were crafted by Sauron by twisting and corrupting captured elves

The Orcs were created by Melkor (Morgoth), Sauron's master.

The Trolls were created in mockery of the Ents. That's about as detailed as Tolkien got.

Flavius

[TimElhajj]

Here's the deal on the rings ... Now you know the rest of the story.

Nice work, Stefan! I was so impressed I sent this to my wife, who is a budding Tolkien fanatic herself. She was inspired. Here is her reply:


Wow, Stefan is quite a good historical writer. I had to wade through the whole of the Silmarillion and the entire notes and appendices of the Trilogy to get that history of the first and second ages (it's all there, but in incredibly opaque, circuitous fashion...it takes weeks of study to make sense of it...your friend Stefan did a nice job of summarizing).

Thanks for sharing. :)

Holly

[Desslock]

Here's the deal on the rings ... Now you know the rest of the story.

Nice work, Stefan! I was so impressed I sent this to my wife, who is a budding Tolkien fanatic herself. She was inspired.

Thanks, Tim. Judging from the responses in the thread, there's probably a bunch of people here who could probably have sent as detailed responses (Ben, Milo, Flavius, etc. - all good stuff).

[Kyle Wilson]

Okay, I've got a stupid question... What exactly do the rings do? I mean, fine, you turn invisible and you can hang out in the girls' locker room being naughty, but that's not really going to help you achieve global domination. Do you also get smarter? Stronger? Able to call down tactical nukes from the sky? More charismatic, so that even though people can't see you they're willing to sign right up for your army of global domination?

Or is the whole thing just a MacGuffin?

[Matthew Gallant]

Okay, I've got a stupid question... What exactly do the rings do?
Well, if you use it long enough, you eventually learn how to make Scary Bilbo Face.

http://truemeaningoflife.com/images/bilbo.gif

[Chris Nahr]

Okay, I've got a stupid question... What exactly do the rings do?

Depends on the particular ring. As has been mentioned either in this thread or in some other Tolkien thread, different rings have different powers.

The three Elven rings have the power of preservation, hence the unearthly beauty of Rivendell and Lothlorien where two of the three rings reside. The seven Dwarven rings made their owners rich and the nine rings for the human kings made their owners powerful, though what exactly happened is unclear in these cases.

The one ring has the power to perceive and command those who wear the other rings, although Dwarves proved too stubborn to be commanded and the Elves were powerful enough to hide their rings from the one ring.

Moreover, the one ring can be used to instill fear and obedience in most ordinary creatures, but only if the wearer actually tries to do this. This appears to be difficult, though, and in the book Gandalf explicitly warns Frodo not to try it since he's not nearly powerful enough to use the ring in this way.

[Desslock]

Okay, I've got a stupid question... What exactly do the rings do?

Depends on the particular ring. As has been mentioned either in this thread or in some other Tolkien thread, different rings have different powers.

The three Elven rings have the power of preservation, hence the unearthly beauty of Rivendell and Lothlorien where two of the three rings reside. The seven Dwarven rings made their owners rich and the nine rings for the human kings made their owners powerful, though what exactly happened is unclear in these cases.

Good summary. Tolkien was generally pretty vague about the powers of the rings -- Chris pretty much summed up everything that Tolkien wrote on the topic, other than the fact that the human and dwarf rings, in addition to the one ring, can make their wearers invisible (but the elven rings can't, for the reasons I summarized in an earlier post). The Dwarven rings also made their wearers greedy, in addition to rich, and reckless because of that greed, which led the the deaths of all the wearers.

Arguably the elven rings had abilities connected to the elements the represented as well, which is why Gandalf (wearing the fire ring) can make fireworks, and frequently casts fire spells in the books (which makes Jackson's decision to excise any magic other than telekinesis more bizarre). In his confrontation with the Balrog on the bridge, Gandalf says some lines in the film that imply that the fire ring is protecting him from, erm, fire, I guess.

[hido]

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/tmq/021210.html

I keep telling TMQ to just come here and all of his questions will be answered. I don't know why he doesn't heed my advice...


"On TMQ's question of why, if in the "Lord of the Rings" Sauron once made an all-powerful ring, he simply doesn't make another, many readers including Chris Benfatto of St. Louis replied that Sauron put all his dark power into the One Ring; his weakened spirit is incapable of making another and seeks the first to recover full vileness. Rob Hartsock of Anchorage adds that the elves who made the ring at Sauron's behest mysteriously lost the knowledge of how to make another; it's the One Ring or nothing now. Another reader suggests Sauron's mistake was to name his creation the One Ring, making it impossible for him to forge a second:

Sauron trapped in own
tautology: One Ring means
can be just One ring.
-- Joe Mette, Mars, Pa.

OK, but then if the One Ring has that much power how come Prince Isildor, a mere human, took it from Sauron in the first place by defeating the ultimate bad guy in a swordfight? How come Isildor himself was later killed in battle while wearing the One Ring?"

[Desslock]

...the elves who made the ring at Sauron's behest mysteriously lost the knowledge of how to make another

The elves had nothing do do with the One Ring.


OK, but then if the One Ring has that much power how come Prince Isildor, a mere human, took it from Sauron in the first place by defeating the ultimate bad guy in a swordfight? How come Isildor himself was later killed in battle while wearing the One Ring?"

Sauron was definitely beatable by conventional means, even with the ring. In fact, he was beaten twice -- by the Numenoreans, who easily swept aside his forces, and then later at the end of the Second Age by the Last Alliance (which fought a lengthy campaign, which gradually dismantled his forces). He also wasn't defeated by a lucky snip of his finger, as depicted in the movie -- he was just overpowered in battle and his body was killed, by Gil-Gilad, Elendil and Isldur.

Isildur was not killed with the ring -- he was killed when the ring betrayed him, and slipped off his finger in the River Anduin while he tried to escape from an orc ambush. That battle is pretty interesting, and well described in Unfinished Tales.

[Slothrop]

So is the West a real place or another plane of existence? If it's real, then does that mean Middle Earth is flat?

[milo]

So is the West a real place or another plane of existence? If it's real, then does that mean Middle Earth is flat?
The Blessed Realm of the Undying Lands in the Uttermost West is a real place. It was originally part of the world from its creation by Illuvatar (God) and the Ainur (angels).

The world was originally created flat, with a wide sea separating the Blessed Realm from the rest of Middle-Earth. When the King of Numenor attempted to sail west to the Undying Lands from the island home of the sea-kings, Westernesse, the island was thrown down and the Blessed Realm was removed from the circles of the world. The world was reformed into a sphere so that men could no longer be tempted to seek immortality among the Valar and the Children of Illuvatar by sailing west. Some mariners still tried, but they discovered that sailing ever westward eventually returned them to Middle-Earth. "Now, all roads are bent," they said.

Eventually, each of the Elves hears the call of the sea, and returns to Elvenhome from Mithlond, the Grey Havens on the western shores of Middle-Earth. Only Elvish mariners can take "the straight road" west across the sea to the Undying Lands, although a handful of significant mortals have also made the journey by one means or another.

--milo
http://www.starshatter.com

[Slothrop]

Thanks, this thread is making me want to read the Silmaril, or at least to read the appendix at the end of Return of the King.

[Desslock]

So is the West a real place or another plane of existence? If it's real, then does that mean Middle Earth is flat?

Milo's summary is great. In essence, it was a real location located to the west of Middle Earth (and originally connected by a ice/land bridge, in the "Pangea" phase of the world), but it was removed when the world was reshaped when Numenor was submerged. Prior to the end of Lord of the Rings, mortals only reached "the West" twice -- once at the end of the First Age, using one of the Simarils as a guiding light, and by the misguided Numenorean force that resulted in that land's destruction. All of the powerful High Elves (Galadriel, Elrond, Glorfindel) or their ancestors travelled to the West and returned to Middle Earth. There's an even more powerful group of Elves (which helped to defeat Morgoth at the end of the first Age), which remained in the West.

At the time of the Lord of the Rings books, it is still is referred to as "the West", but it's no longer part of the world -- it's essentially "heaven" in the mythos.

Tolkien encompassed many aspects of religious and secular mythology into his setting:

Illuvator= God
Ainur= Angels
Melkor/Morgoth= Satan, the "fallen" Ainur
Numenor= Atlantis
Theoden= King Arthur (there's also heroes in the First Age that are pretty good representations of Robin Hood, etc.)
Varius Ainur and Maia = Elemental Titans
Manwe (head of the Ainur) = Zeus/Odin, and there are different Ainur representing Hercules, etc.
"the West"=Heaven

[Bub, Andrew]

And, based on your earlier post ...

Sauron = Loki

(antagonist, trickster, fallen from the side of "good", and instigator of the end of creation)

[Brad Grenz]

Thanks, this thread is making me want to read the Silmaril

You really should, it's very interesting. It's not really like reading a novel, but rather a history or scripture, but I found it highly enjoyable.