November is National Novel Writing Month

[TimElhajj]

And by that they mean that you ought to write an entire novel in a single month: November.

http://www.nanowrimo.org/index.php?s=2

It's just incredible. The idea is that it doesn't have to be good, it just has to be 50,000 words long. You can make it good later.

Has anyone tried this general approach to writing? I have never written a novel, but I assume some of us here at least aspire to writing book length material. I think this approach would be very hard for me. I am willing to accept that I am not going to write my best prose when I am trying to be creative, but I like to go back and work on things before I get too far in. Maybe this is why I've never written a book length project. I am just curious how other people work, or if you even have book length projects in mind. I am currently considering writing a memoir.

[Squirrel Killer]

I've got about 9-10 creative ideas in my head right now, 2-3 of which are video, one which is multimedia, one game, and the rest would work best in novel form. Maybe this will encourage me to get off my ass and work on one or two of them... Nah, I'll just join another ESPN NFL 2k5 league.

[Jamie Madigan]

I did this last year and enjoyed every second of it. I'd never written a novel before, but I did it and felt a great amount of satisfaction from it. I even finished in 3 weeks thanks to a pretty strict schedule of writing for an hour and a half every morning before work. You just have to keep plugging away at it, whether you're having an off day or an on one.

I'm on the fence about whether to do it again this year. I have a couple of ideas, but I also have a new daughter that I didn't have last year. But if we were to get a group of Quarter to Three regulars together to make a run at it, I think I could easily be talked into it.

Anyone want to commit to at least trying?

[dannimal]

My wife has done this the previous two years. I doubt she'll be doing it this year, if for no other reason she's still got both previous novels to work on.

It did seem to benefit her in that it got her accustomed to writing a lot on a regular basis without worrying about if it was good or not. The downside is that if you don't spend a lot of time editting afterwards, you've just got a lot of poor writing.

[Rob Slater]

Depending on the subject matter, you could at least have something to submit to Wizards of the Coast's open fiction call (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=books/main/opencall2004).

[Drastic]

I gave it a shot last year, fell short by about 20 thousand words. I plan on actually finishing this time round. That it will suck, of course, goes without saying.

[Anaxagoras]

About how many pages is 50,000 words?

[TimElhajj]

About how many pages is 50,000 words?

I was taught to calculate 250 words a page, so 200.

[DrCrypt]

I'm sure this is a great idea for a lot of people, but for me, this sort of thing really emphasizes everything I hate about the way writers today approach creative writing - volume and speed over quality and deliberation.

I think this is a central fallacy of the entire idea - "Make no mistake: You will be writing a lot of crap. And that's a good thing. By forcing yourself to write so intensely, you are giving yourself permission to make mistakes. To forgo the endless tweaking and editing and just create. To build without tearing down." And the unspoken implication: "...and also to build without planning". Imagine trying to build a house without either planning it out OR tearing parts of it down. I'm sure it'll be a keeper.

Don't get me wrong - I think it is important to learn to make mistakes. I'm currently working on my first novel. I'd always had a hard time staying committed to longer projects because I was extremely self-critical. To make matters worse, the sort of prose style that I go for in my fiction is unique and fairly difficult to get write. For me, fiction writing after the age of, say, 18 or so became an incredibly laborious and time-consuming affair. This was in stark contrast to my experience writing when I was a kid. I say I'm working on my first novel now, but I actually wrote a couple when I was about 12 or 13 about a shotgun wielding private dick who fought monsters in Nazi Germany (for my fans, here's some trivia for you: what was the detective's name? Dr. John Crypt, MD!) They were about 300 pages each and I probably wrote them both within the space of six months, on Wordstar 5.0 as I recall. No small feat for a kid. I could sit down in an afternoon and write ten pages easy. I wrote a thousand pages of horror stories as a teenager.

But as I got older, I realized that I wasn't particularly interested in pulp and genre stuff anymore, and I turned my creative efforts to more emotionally significant projects. I went from effortlessly writing ten pages a day to a point where writing was like pulling teeth for me. I would write a paragraph, re-read it, realize it was all wrong and scrub it out. I would restart things over and over again. I did produce quite a few high quality short stories during this time but my output was intensely haphazard. I knew I had talent, but I could never get in the flow. I ended up taking numerous creative writing courses and how writing for a certain amount of time or pages per day was the most important thing to becoming a successful writer. This never quite gibed with me, to be honest - it always seemed that the most important thing to becoming a successful writer (at least how I defined the concept) was to have well-executed talent. People in my classes would talk about how they would write ten pages in an evening and while their work generally sucked I was still rather stunned. So I would try to set myself "daily quotas", whether of pages or time. I never could match them - if it was pages, I'd spend hours laboring over an important passage, only to fling it aside in disgust. If it was time, I'd hit a creative wall. And then when it came to write the next day, I'd be so discouraged from the previous day's failure that I was even more likely to fail, until I just gave up in disgust.

It honestly wasn't until early last year that I suddenly put my finger on the problem. I was sitting around in a mope about my marginal output of creative writing over the last couple years and in order to torment myself, I took the number of years in my adult life (six, going from eighteen) and figured out that if I'd even written a page a day, I'd have written between 4-6 full novels by now. If I'd written a paragraph a day, I would likely be sitting on one or two. If anything, this actually encouraged me, because I knew I could output at least a quality paragraph a day, one that I was happy with. That sounds absurd, right? But I put it into practice and instead of trying to match some absurd output goal decided that I would simply write whatever I was happy with in a day. If I wrote two pages a day, great. If I wrote a single sentence, fine. Whatever I wrote, that was something I didn't have down before.

This approach has led to more quality output than I've done in years. Not only have I written a significant amount of my novel since the beginning of the year, but it's some of the best, most creative prose I've ever accomplished. I've shown some people I respect some of it and feedback has been very encouraging. I found that with no artificial pressures hanging over my head, I have much less problem writing for long periods of time, of getting into the flow. I often exceed the sort of time or page quotas that I would have given myself under my old system. But the point is to never get down about yourself - as long as you write something, no matter how small, that you are happy with, that's something you can be encouraged by, because it is work that wouldn't have been done before.
.
I guess my problem with the National Novel Writing approach is that it reeks of an artificial deadline that can only result in a decent read by accident. More people will fail in the challenge than meet it, and that will discourage them. A lot of people will output a novel and discover that it sucks because they didn't take the time they needed to get it more or less right the first time. The fact of the matter is that if you actually care about the quality of what you are writing, it is a hell of a lot easier to at least roughly get it right the first time. Editing is very difficult, because you are attached to earlier work, even if you know it isn't very good. And if you're trying to produce anything that isn't total pablum, that's not going to easily fit into a mandatory five page per day writing schedule. Of course, if you just want to write one more piece of genre crap for the Wizards of the Coast effeminate elves with swords competition, that might not bother you. But it strikes me that for someone with talent this sort of competition will do you more harm than good. There is no spoon, guys - don't sacrifice quality for output.

[Ben Sones]

I agree with you, for the most part, though I will say that it can be useful to keep your writing and editing seperate. I find that these two tasks require very different states of mind, and if I let myself edit while I write, I never end up getting much written. It's better to just forge ahead and get something down; even if that something isn't very good, you can always fix it (or rewrite it) later.

That said, the idea of outputting an entire novel before you let your inner editor take a crack at your work seems somewhat extreme. Novels have structural considerations that need to be addressed through planning and editing--both of those things are an important part of the process. Maybe some people could turn out a decent novel-length story via a month-long free-writing exercise, but I sure couldn't.

[Jamie Madigan]

You're halfway to the NaNoWriMo goal with that post, Crypt. ;)

The important thing to understand about NaNoWriMo is that the goal --the entire point-- is to write a "one day" novel. As in, "One day I'll write a novel." The point is not to write a good novel, or even something that's publishable. Shed that assumption and it becomes easier to understand why people do it.

The deadline and rules ARE completely arbitrary and geared towards one end only: getting you to write. This is an event that gets people to exercise with creative writing (or a particular format of writing) who normally don't. The rules, deadlines, and perhaps most importantly the community all help a lot of people experience the pain and joy of writing a novel. That's a worthwhile experience in and of itself.

[DrCrypt]

The point is not to write a good novel,
I guess I just don't get the point then. The point is to write something you're not happy with? Putting words down on paper isn't particularly satifying unless you can look at it and think "That's exactly what I wanted to say". I can write 50,000 words of crap in a month but it's a wasted exercise. What's the point of writing a bad novel? I can understand doing it accidentally, but walking in, throwing up your hands, and saying "I don't care about quality... just page count!" Ugh.


It's better to just forge ahead and get something down; even if that something isn't very good, you can always fix it (or rewrite it) later.
I personally just don't agree with this. You may be able to go back and "fix it" to the extent that you can make it readable. But unless you can get it the first time to say something reasonably approximate to what you are trying to say, it's wasted effort. A novel is linerar in that what is established as an idea, an emotion, a philosophy earlier in the novel is the base upon which later ideas, emotions or philosophies are built. That makes it extremely important to get across what you are trying to say the first time with a relatively close level of precision and, depending on what you are trying to relate, that can take quite a bit of time. I mean, if you're just talking about how Narrator Jack found out his aunt had gonorrhea, maybe that's not so important. But the primary challenge for any writer is translating a nebulous emotional state within them into something that is autonomous outside him. In that sort of writing, "forging ahead" can divert the entire course of your novel.

I also don't believe that writing should be kept separate from editing. To me, live editing is part of the writing process. I will agree that there is a major edit and rewrite usually to be done at the end of the work that should be kept separate from the preliminary writing process, though.

That said, I think the most important thing for a writer to do is figure out how they write best, and not listen to anyone else's theories. Another reason why I don't particularly like this exercise - it's trying to enforce a theory of writing that is, at best, pretty debatable and completely unrelated to quality. I think it's telling that they've had like 6,000 winners over the last four years and only three published works.

[Robert Sharp]

I think it depends on your writing style and work habits. Right now, I try to spend about 5 hours a day working on my dissertation. I'm hoping to have a good, complete draft by early December. I tend to go with Crypt's approach, writing and editing at once. I still, however, have to spend some days just going through and editing. Doing good work requires careful deliberation though...not just scribbling down your ideas as fast as possible. I would never be able to get done at that rate. Of course, I am not writing a novel, so it might be different.

[Jamie Madigan]

I guess I just don't get the point then. The point is to write something you're not happy with?
I think you're failing to appreciate how people may be different from you. Many people who participate in this event ARE happy with what they end up with. The more realistic ones among them (like me) don't have any delusions about its quality or the chances of getting it published, but we're still happy with what we got out of it.

And since this is a completely self-policed exercise, you don't get anyone who just writes the word "SPAM!" 50,000 times and considers himself a winner.


You may be able to go back and "fix it" to the extent that you can make it readable. But unless you can get it the first time to say something reasonably approximate to what you are trying to say, it's wasted effort. A novel is linerar in that what is established as an idea, an emotion, a philosophy earlier in the novel is the base upon which later ideas, emotions or philosophies are built. That makes it extremely important to get across what you are trying to say the first time with a relatively close level of precision and, depending on what you are trying to relate, that can take quite a bit of time.
Phrases like "reasonably approximate" and "relatively close level of precision" actually suggest writing first (probably from a plan/outline) and editing later. If you're rambling incoherently, then yes you need to stop and rewrite (unless you're purposely doing it as an exercise). But if you're close and the momentum is in the right direction I think a lot of writers can get it out and then go back to polish.


I also don't believe that writing should be kept separate from editing. To me, live editing is part of the writing process.
Again, people differ. I know a couple of amature writers who separate editing and writing, and I've read of a few professional ones that do, too. Writing is an art, and thus you'll see a lot of people take varying approaches with varying levels of success. Do what works best for you, I say.


Another reason why I don't particularly like this exercise - it's trying to enforce a theory of writing that is, at best, pretty debatable and completely unrelated to quality. I think it's telling that they've had like 6,000 winners over the last four years and only three published works.
This just underscores that the purpose is not to write something that you necessarily think is going to be published. It's more about the experience of writing a novel than it is the product. You're aggrandizing it more than you should be.

[Anaxagoras]

I understand the impetus for this quite well. When I used to write philosophical essays for school (length: 10 to 40 pages a piece, depending on the class), the really hard part was getting something on the page. Obviously, you had to think out what you're going to say ahead of time, and an outline was preferable. However, I found just spilling crap onto the page was the hardest thing.

Once there was something there and the basic structure of the paper was defined, revising it until I was happy with it was relatively easy. Sometimes I had to do extensive revision, but the task wasn't as daunting as getting the words on the page in the first place.

I dunno what novel writing is like; it migh be completely different. After all, the point of novels is creative expression, (of whatever form) whereas philosophical essays were supposed to use logic, present arguments, and prove points. But I would think the two forms of writing wouldn't be completely alien to each other.

[quatoria]

Crypt:

Thank you for writing that. Thank you very much. In reading it, I had a bit of a personal revalation about my own problems maintaining consistent output. I think what you wrote, and what it made me realize, could help me a great deal in my writing. I've copied it all down and saved it, so I can look at it later on, if I need to.

Thank you very, very much.

[Mike Hussey]

And since this is a completely self-policed exercise, you don't get anyone who just writes the word "SPAM!" 50,000 times and considers himself a winner.



I should hope not, that would be modern art, not fiction. Hmmm... you've just given me an idea for a Turner Prize entry called 'E-mail Blues'

[Bub, Andrew]

Personally I think it's a silly gimmicky thing - but if it works for people and gives them some sort of pleasure or feeling of accomplishment, then, okay, go for it wild man!

I see there are a lot more novel writers here than I realized. How many of you guys are serious? I mean, critique group/Writer's Market/actually sent out a query - serious?

[noun]

I signed up. What the hell, I have three short stories and two novels in progress. Let's see what I can do with a stream of consciousness attempt.

[Sparky]

I think we should all write a novel together! If everyone writes a thousand-word post, we should be done in no time. It should feature our shotgun-wielding hero Dr. John Crypt, a dastardly villain named Steelton Highspire, Choggles the butler (who may or may not be entirely loyal to Lord Highspire), the ghost of Denny's cat Bill (Is he responsible for the strange occurrances at Highspire Spires? Or is it something more sinister?), Thomas de Chick (dashing French zeppelin pilot with a shadowy past), and, of course -- The Entity.

Oh, and elves.

And Nazis.

And Cthulhu.

And monkeys.

Also, the phrase "heaving (and/or "quivering") thews" should be used at least forty times. Look, I've practically written the whole thing for you.

[Bub, Andrew]

And monkeys.


I see you're finally coming around. This is gratifying.

[Sparky]

I assure you, the monkeys will die horrible deaths in an airship explosion over Paris. But don't worry, Captain de Chick and his faithful pet budgie (also named de Chick) will escape, although Chick's left hand is severed by a girder falling from the crumbling Eiffel Tower...but Dr. Crypt will design him an elaborate steam-powered clockwork hand that works great and even tells time. And then de Chick finds out that the princess is HIS SISTER!

This is gonna be a best-seller. I hope we can get Gary Whitta to do the screenplay.

[Ben Sones]

I assure you, the monkeys will die horrible deaths in an airship explosion over Paris. But don't worry, Captain de Chick and his faithful pet budgie (also named de Chick) will escape, although Chick's left hand is severed by a girder falling from the crumbling Eiffel Tower...but Dr. Crypt will design him an elaborate steam-powered clockwork hand that works great and even tells time. And then de Chick finds out that the princess is HIS SISTER!

This is gonna be a best-seller. I hope we can get Gary Whitta to do the screenplay.

Wait a minute, you lost me. Is Capt. de Chick a monkey, too? Or was he just sharing an airship ride with the monkeys? Because it really doesn't make a lot of sense to give a monkey a pet budgie. A cockatiel, maybe, but even that stretches my suspension of disbelief a bit.

[Sparky]

Ben, you can't expect me to edit for clarity -- we've got 50,000 words to type, dammit!

p.s. Captain Thomas de Chick is not a monkey.
p.p.s. However... [SPOILERS]





...his pet budgie is one of the Elder Gods in a very clever disguise.

[Tyrion Lannister]

Which one's the Darcy substitute?

[noun]

Romance. Gotta work romance into there somewhere. (But Jesus, not with the monkey).

[Sparky]

Which one's the Darcy substitute?
This is no Pride and Prejudice...it's more Northanger Abbey. Crossed with Starship Troopers. And Slaughterhouse Five. With a smattering of The Eye Of Argon.

Romance? Guess I'll have to MarySue myself into the story as the brilliant quantum physicist/flamenco dancer/hired assassin who bedevils both Doc Crypt and de Chick but throws them both over for the Cthulhubudgie and lives happily ever after at Highspire Spires (we discover the powder room in the old East Wing is the Arcane Portal to the Lost City Of R'lyeh, which explains why the damn toilet seat was always left up).

[Anders Hallin]

Will this be part of the original Dr. John Crypt, MD continuity or is it set in an alternate reality (tentatively called "Choggleverse", perhaps)?

[TimElhajj]

I can't get over the fact that my old high school is the bad guy in Sparky's story.

[dannimal]

Both times my Wife has done this (if I remember right, she originally tried and "failed", and then re-attacked it 2 more times), she spent a great deal of time planning in October, so DrCrypt's claims aren't necessarily the norm for all participants.

Still, the point of the exercise is more to get people out of the prevelant rut of "perfectionism", where you write a small piece, and then fret and pick and worry it and stop the actual writing.

It's not a "Hey, write 50,000 disjointed and unplanned words, now you're a novelist!" thing. It's a "Hey, don't worry so much about it being a great finished novel, just write it." thing.

While I haven't even thought about doing it (well, beyond the "That'd be neat..." initial thought), my wife and a bunch of her friends have done it, or tried it, or talk a lot about it. I think that if you graphed out the universe of participants, you'd get a bell curve with the middle being those who do some planning, and are able to edit later the work into something resembling a novel, and on either extreme are talentless hacks who just spat out 50,000 plotless words with no hope and perfectionists who either came up short because of too much time spent on in-line editting or poured extra hours into it to hit the goal.

[Jack]

I agree with Crypt (he won't be surprised by this) that writing a novel is not something that can be hammered out with a daily page requirement. I've written six novels, only one published so far, and I have a pretty good handle on what process works for me. Of course, as with every art, everyone eventually finds the best way for them.

Thrrrppt! said that this contest is to give people the "experience" of writing a novel. That's not quite true. It gives people an endurance and discipline test, but really has little to do with actually writing a novel. This contest might give you the "feel" of writing a novel the way sitting on an idling motorcycle and revving the engine would give you the feel of riding one.

By my personal definition, a novel should be at least an honest attempt at some form of originality. Of course, there's learning how to effectively use narrative and how to write a good sentence and how to use imagery.... This contest will only train people to use cliches and half-baked ideas... and it won't train you how to edit your own work (the rewrite phase is critical), which is by far the most difficult part of writing a novel. Well, that's not true. The hardest part is getting published. Finishing the novel is actually the easiest part of the process.

[Ben Sones]

I think the hardest part for some people is just getting started. If you write a lot, then you probably don't think about the discipline that it takes to write, because it's second nature to you at this point. But it does take quite a bit of discipline, and that can be a huge hurdle for people who haven't written much. And it's a relatively important hurdle, in that it's the first one. If you can't develop the discipline to write, and write regularly, then you aren't ever going to get anything written. I think that's what this contest is supposed to address.

That said, trying to hammer out an novel as an excercise in freewriting/discipline seems sort of silly to me. Keeping a journal is a much better method for training yourself to write regularly.

[dannimal]

The point isn't to give people the experience of writing a novel. It's not to give an endurance/discipline test (though that's closer). It's to get people off the habit of endlessly analyzing and re-writing and getting hung up mid-stream, and to just write. Discipline is limited to "work" hours needed to get the word count goal met.


By forcing yourself to write so intensely, you are giving yourself permission to make mistakes. To forgo the endless tweaking and editing and just create. To build without tearing down.

http://www.nanowrimo.org/modules/cjaycontent/index.php?id=2

I don't see how you can claim that NaNo has little to do with actually writing a novel, when it clearly does. Finished work? No. Of publishable quality? Doubtful.

Your motorcycle analogy is flawed. A better example (IMO) would be tandem skydiving. You get all the experience of jumping out of a plane, but you don't need a 6 hour training class covering all the things that could go wrong. You're certainly not left with the ability or knowledge after the jump to go back up and jump solo safely, but you've certainly gone through the process. Maybe if they had a tandem motorcycle like they have tandem bicycles.

How much inspection of previous NaNo efforts have you done? How many people who've completed the contest have you talked to? Yet you claim with confidence that it will train people to use cliche and half-baked ideas. I'm sure some of the works will do that, but to assume that that's all that will happen (or even that a vast majority of the entries will) is just lazy. Also, why do you assume that participants aren't making an honest attempt at some form of originality?

There is a pretty extensive forum setup, and its not at all uncommon for participants to share work, to help each other edit (both during the month and long after the contest has ended).

A great many tasks are learned with the "Just do it, then worry about getting good at the details later" approach. We put training wheels on bikes and slowly progress to balancing on our own, and then learning wheelies and hand braking and so on. We learn to spell phonetically, and even into 4th grade getting close is fine (which bugs me simply because it's not how I learned it, but I'm willing to surrender to the trained folk). I took a drawing class a few years ago where we regularly did "5 minute sketches", which forced us to worry less about being "perfect" and more about trying to get down what we were seeing. I'm training for a marathon (which is Sunday), and a vast majority of the "insturction" for first timers is geared towards just finishing and having fun, and not towards perfect form and having a fast time. In golf, you learn first to make good contact, without much regard for accuracy. You start with 3 or 4 clubs at most, and learning to hit a wedge or short iron. You don't start with "Head still, full body turn, weight to the back foot, keep the elbow in, start the down swing by drivig the handss down..." When I took guitar lessons, we starated with the basic chords, and a couple of simple songs (U2's Desire is a great 3-chord starter) that were fun.

People are far more likely to stick with something if they can feel good about their experience and have a sense of accomplishment early on. Bogging people down with excessive rules/details is more likely to drive them off than see them continue on.

This is no different. An environment has been set up that newcomers and novices can enjoy, and learn without pressure. Nobody has said that finishers come out of the process skilled professional writers. I don't think people go into the process expecting that. To belittle the effort (for whatever reason) is just petty.

[DrCrypt]

The point isn't to give people the experience of writing a novel... I don't see how you can claim that NaNo has little to do with actually writing a novel, when it clearly does.

Sorry, I don't get it.

Anyway, I know you keep on harping that being self-critical and constantly analyzing and tweaking your writing as you work is a bad thing. This is why we're not going to see eye to eye - I don't think it is, and I wish most writers would be more self-critical, trading on their own internal scale of worthiness five or ten bad pages for one good sentence. Most of the twentieth century's great prose stylists were clearly not just "writing what came to them" or just "tweaking it after". Look at Nabokov, where every sentence is clearly calculate for maximum sensual impact, not only as a self-contained thought but also in relation to the mood and flow of passages coming before and after. He wandered around writing sentences on note cards as they came to him and generally filled hundreds of them, writing and rewriting them, before he actually started working on a novel.

Of course, great prose stylists won't be entering this competition. That's fine. The only people who will enter this competition are those who agree with the central conceit that volume is more important than quality (at least in a first draft - but, in my opinion, you can't just "tweak" bad, slapdash prose, which makes it a conceit that is applicable to even the finished novel). There are other ways to train yourself to write every day without entering a 250 page in one month competition that more or less guarantees turning out nothing but garbage (pretty fairly evidenced by the competition's 0.0005% publication rate). Who is going to be encouraged by writing 250 pages of crap "just to show that they could do it"? No writer who I ever want to read, that's whom.


How much inspection of previous NaNo efforts have you done? How many people who've completed the contest have you talked to? Yet you claim with confidence that it will train people to use cliche and half-baked ideas. I'm sure some of the works will do that, but to assume that that's all that will happen (or even that a vast majority of the entries will) is just lazy.
Why? Writing something that is not a cliche takes time. Fleshing out a half-baked idea takes time. Both of these aren't outlining problems - they are execution problems. They can only truly be dealt with when you are on the page. Yet time is what you don't have in this competition. I think it is very reasonable to assume that most people will be working against a monster deadline and will compensate by not thinking out what they are writing very carefully. And I disagree that you can fix that sort of thing later, any more than you can change the plane you jumped out of half-way down in a tandem jump. A good novel is not something where you can merely cut out bad paragraphs and place in better ones. Good novels are as linear as a symphony in the perfect inter-relationship of their notes, which is exactly what makes them feel so boundless. If you have a first draft of a novel that isn't any good, your novel won't be any good unless you throw it all out.

As Jack says, hey, whatever works for you. I'm simply skeptical that this competition is doing anything besides encouraging people to write poorly. I'm happy if they feel like they've accomplished something. But I think every writer should concentrate first and foremost on writing a good novel... not simply a novel. So in that sense, I think this competition is teaching the worst possible approach to writing a novel. I'd love this competition if it was the National 40 Plus Page Good Short Story Writing Month - even that is more than most on-the-fence writers have ever accomplished, so there would be a sense of accomplishment, and it would encourage quality as well as fastidiousness. In my opinion, this competition reaches too far and is encouraging an approach to writing that I find extremely questionable.


To belittle the effort (for whatever reason) is just petty.
We're not belittling people's "effort". Good for them if they are happy with the results of this endurance contest. We're questioning whether or not in practice the contest philosophy results to writing quality novels, even down the line. That philosophy is what I consider to be petty.

[dannimal]

If being self-critical and constantly analyzing cripples a writer to the point that they give up, it's a bad thing. It's a bad thing if it discourages them from every trying (as an example, it's my nature to do this very thing, and it has led me to the conclusion that writing isn't for me personally).
If someone has the desire and/or ability to do something, but the manner in which they are taught or coached drives them away from that thing, it's bad.


The only people who will enter this competition are those who agree with the central conceit that volume is more important than quality

This is just plain untrue, and it's a stupid claim to make.

How many people who have participated have tried to get their novels published? How many even have an interest in trying to get published? Throwing out a publication rate as a way of proving that all the entrants produce garbage is silly. Not to mention it ignores the people who take what they've learned through the process and use it to generate better work that does get published.

I don't see why you continue to insist that the contest is an end point rather than a starting point. I don't think the folks organizing, or even a majority of participants think that's the case.

Nobody has claimed that this is the "best" way to learn to write a novel, or that the works produced will rival Nabokov. I haven't made the claim that you can just wave your hands over what gets produced and magically edit it into a publishable work. I don't think that's even the point. If someone writes 50k words and it turns out only 5k of them are worth saving, but can be used as the core of an actual good novel, huzzah. Hell, if someone writes 50k words of garbage but comes way with the feeling of "Hey, I enjoyed that. I didn't write anything good, but I want to keep at it.", and pursues it further and learns how to write well, then his initial steps were good.

I don't agree that fleshing out ideas can only be done "on the page" (what exactly does that mean, even? Nabokov wandering around with index cards, before he actually started working on a novel doesn't seem to mesh with the implication of "on the page"), either. I've sat with my wife and had her explain sticking points in her writing to me, and we've hashed things out to a point where she's able to go back to the writing desk and edit/add to stories. Nor do I agree that the way you define a good novel and the process behind it is the only valid one. Do you really think that every good novel or symphony was written linearly, without the author taking large pieces and moving them around (multiple times, even) before finally settling on the order that best serves the work?

Assuming that every single person who takes up this task just sits down on 12:01am November 1st and starts writing what's on their mind and stops 30 days and 50k words later is ludicrous. Some folks put a lot of effort leading up to the event into plotting and planning (my wife even uses index cards to stage her novel), and then use November to write the actual work. Some folks probably do just spit out 50k of whatever. Those people are also probably the least likely to try to get published.

I don't think the competition (and that's really a poor choice of word, IMO since there aren't judges or warads aside from "You finished!", but they use it so oh well) encourages people to write poorly, it just encourages them to write. If you have a first draft that isn't any good, it's not safe to assume that there's nothing good in it that can be salvaged and used as a bigger base for a better draft.

I don't think a beginner should focus on writing a good novel anymore than I think someone learning to play piano should focus on being good right away (to the point where they're afraid to make mistakes), or that someone learning to play golf should worry about hitting the driver long and straight first. I don't think that teaching spelling by dropping a pile of "rules" on the student is the best route, either. In fact, I think that in general a solid way to teach something is to do very little teaching at first, letting the student feel around and experiment. As they get comfortable, you add in new lessons/complexities and build from there. Lessons get more complex as students succeed with easier ones and gain confidence.

Of course great prose stylists won't be entering this competition (well, I doubt it anyway. Like with the 24 hour Comic writing event, it's entirely possible that some will, out of curiosity). They've already gotten to a point where they have their own methods that work for them. I wouldn't expect a person who has 30 or 40 solo jumps to go to an airfield and ask for a tandem, either. Saying that only beginners who don't know how to jump solo would bother doing a tandem jump is obvious, and using it to demean is pointless.

[Jack]

Sorry, dannimal, I didn't mean to come across as if I were belittling or demeaning the effort put forth by these writers. If they don't have enough drive to complete a novel without bracketing out a month of the year to pound out 50,000 words, then this writing event is perfect for them. It's a deadline that brings the grindstone to your nose, rather than the other way around. I sincerely hope that plenty of satisfying tales are assembled.

It's a noble effort, really. But as odd as it may sound, it shouldn't be an effort. Any artwork shouldn't be forced. It will be work, to be sure, but if it becomes laborious, then it's not for you. As Crypt says, the contest appears to emphasize the worst writing habit: cranking it out because you have to. If you wanted to do it, really wanted it, you wouldn't need someone to hang a thirty-day deadline over your head. From that deep-seated want, there would be compulsion to act, and in that compulsion you would create a much more satisfying work than a tale crammed into a thirty-day envelope. Piers Anthony had that kind of schedule, and frankly even for a seasoned writer, most of his work suffered because of it.

Again, I'm not demeaning the work these folks will put into it. It just feels a bit like someone pounding out Chopsticks as fast as they can on a grand piano just to feel what it's like to be a pianist.

[Tyrion Lannister]

I disagree Jack. Art is often born out of struggle.

Every word I write; every line of code; every note on the stave; every line on the paper is hard. A struggle towards perfection and against pervasive self-doubt. It doesn't get easier over time, but the results do get better. At least I tell myself that. Maybe sometimes I get within breathing distance of actual art, but at all times my endeavour is artistic, even if the results are not.

It is easy for you. You have my envy. As do all the writers who speak of "a voice", and the words "flowing unbidden" from their pen.

The worth of something can not be judged by its ease of accomplishment.

Anyway, I hope everyone who attempts this tries to make something great, not just something a little bit better than the dreadful Dean Koontz they read over the summer.

[DrCrypt]

I disagree Jack. Art is often born out of struggle.

Every word I write; every line of code; every note on the stave; every line on the paper is hard. A struggle towards perfection and against pervasive self-doubt. It doesn't get easier over time, but the results do get better. At least I tell myself that. Maybe sometimes I get within breathing distance of actual art, but at all times my endeavour is artistic, even if the results are not.

It is easy for you. You have my envy. As do all the writers who speak of "a voice", and the words "flowing unbidden" from their pen.
That's not what he's saying at all. Jeez, so many people who are writers here and yet so little reading comprehension . He isn't arguing it isn't "hard". He isn't claiming it isn't "hard" for him. He's arguing that someone who is a writer at heart has a drive to create REGARDLESS of it being hard and that someone who is a writer at heart isn't going to fare any better with some crazy output quota hanging over their head. An arbitrary deadline doesn't make things less hard - either way, you need to have the drive to create.

And, for the record, "writing with the words flowing unbidden from one's pen" is more or less what we think the entire damn problem with this thing is. "Hello? More biding, people!" But, on the other hand, if you don't hear a creative voice, you have no business creating - like imagination, that is the sort of thing you either have or you don't.

[Tyrion Lannister]

odd as it may sound, it shouldn't be an effort. Any artwork shouldn't be forced.

This is what I was responding too. I doubt I was misinterpreting it. It is pretty clear.

I happen to think most artwork is forced, and requires effort. Training people into putting in some effort is not a bad thing.

(Although I don't disagree at all with your concern about just mashing out crap at speed).

[Jack]

odd as it may sound, it shouldn't be an effort. Any artwork shouldn't be forced.

This is what I was responding too. I doubt I was misinterpreting it. It is pretty clear.

I happen to think most artwork is forced, and requires effort. Training people into putting in some effort is not a bad thing.

(Although I don't disagree at all with your concern about just mashing out crap at speed).

"If you understood everything I said, you'd be me," said Miles Davis. Apparently, I should have been clearer. I was implying exactly what Crypt interpreted. It will be work, but willing work. You shouldn't need to be coerced into writing.

[Tyrion Lannister]

Yeah. I get your point. But this isn't coercion - this is like having an exercise partner for those first few months of training, to help get you over that initial hump.

[TimElhajj]

Have any of you ever read the Stephan King's book on writing? He recommends this volume approach, perhaps not surprisingly as he has written so much himself. He is not the only writer who has advocated creating first and editing later, which it seems is the motivation behind this contest. I don't know that I would sign up for the contest myself, but I do think it is wrong to assume that nothing good can come of participation. I also think it is short sighted to assume this is a bad approach to writing. Clearly it's not the best approach for everyone. But neither is trying to write something "good" at the expense of writing anything at all. I've often thought I had written something good, only to re-read it a day, a week, or a month later and decide it was really crap. What you think is good is going to change. I think it's better to have completed a story or a project, than to compose a good sentence. You can always continue to work on the limitations of the story, but a sentence is just a sentence no matter how good it is.

[TimElhajj]

You shouldn't need to be coerced into writing.

Oh, please. And you shouldn't need to be told to eat your vegtables, or excercise, or to quit checking out the cute girls in their bikinis at the beach. I thought all writers were supposed to understand human nature?

[DrCrypt]

Okay, Stephen King's "On Writing" has yet again been invoked as a good text on how to learn how to write. I have to bow out of this before my head explodes. But first...


Oh, please. And you shouldn't need to be told to eat your vegtables, or excercise, or to quit checking out the cute girls in their bikinis at the beach. I thought all writers were supposed to understand human nature?
You really can't see the difference between eating your vegetables and fulfilling a creative need? For a writer, writing isn't something you do because it's good for you - it is a drive. A better analogy would be "do you have to be coerced into eating", end sentence. The answer, of course, is no, although this competition certainly seems to be strong on coercing people into crapping. Five pages a day, to be exact.

[TimElhajj]

Okay, Stephen King's "On Writing" has yet again been invoked as a good text on how to learn how to write. I have to bow out of this before my head explodes.

Go ahead and criticize, but he's written and published way more than you or I ever will. While I'm not crazy about all of his work, some of it is very good. King is also begining to get long overdue support from academia.

[TimElhajj]

For a writer, writing isn't something you do because it's good for you - it is a drive.

That's a cliche. You can do better than that.

[DrCrypt]

Instead of drudging up all my old comments, I'll just link you here, where this was endlessly discussed and all of your points addressed in one place or another, especially the "long due recognition from academmia".

http://www.quartertothree.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=284891&highlight=stephen+king+writing#284891

[DrCrypt]

That's a cliche. You can do better than that.
Is that a joke? No, seriously - it's a good one if it is. If it isn't, you must be a singularly uncreative person to have never felt the compulsion to create something for any reason other than pure pragmatism. What, you think Stephen King woke up one day and decided that he should start writing twenty pages a day because it was the best way to become a millionaire, or it was gonna take him and his wife out of the trailer park they were living in? Like it or not, it isn't a cliche, it's a truth. You don't just decide to become a novelist because it's a good way to while away the day or would make a pretty cool career. You do it from a deeply rooted need to create.

[noun]

Every one has different approaches to writing. Who's to say one is more valid than another? Whether or not you find this contest valid, isn't it enough that it's encouraging people to give it a shot?

And after reading through the site again, it seems more aimed at giving people a motive to increase their output, and not motivated to give the talentless something to do.

[TimElhajj]

That's not a particularly insightful come back there, Crypt. But considering your professed writing style, it's probably much easier for you to criticize than it is for you to articulate what's on your mind. I'll just assume King is not one of your favorite writers and let it go at that. If I want insight into creativity and the writing process, I'll look to someone who can at least articulate an original thought.

[DrCrypt]

Tim, I don't even know what you're doing anymore except raving. Sorry you've decided to petulantly explode as opposed to articulating exactly what your problem with the idea that creativity is a compulsion. I'll tell you what - why don't you tell me why being creative -isn't- a drive? I know it's all swell to just dismiss my idea with a flip "That's a cliche... you're a bad writer" and then not bother arguing against what made you rip your panties up over your ears, but I have never met a single writer, musician, film maker, artist, architect, etc. who wasn't driven to be creative. Are you claiming these people just arbitrarily decided to do these things because they were sound career choices? I doubt any one of them would say that.

Edit: Or were you talking about my link to King? Because the next five or six pages are filled with a lot of discussions on King, in which I contribute. I wasn't linking you to just that post, Tim. That was the jumping off point.

[Jamie Madigan]

Thrrrppt! said that this contest is to give people the "experience" of writing a novel. That's not quite true. It gives people an endurance and discipline test, but really has little to do with actually writing a novel. This contest might give you the "feel" of writing a novel the way sitting on an idling motorcycle and revving the engine would give you the feel of riding one.
I don't want to get into bickering over terms, but if what you end up with is a novel by any reasonable definition, then you've written a novel. The quality is open to interpretation, but there's nothing metaphysical about it.


This contest will only train people to use cliches and half-baked ideas...
I have no idea why you think this.


The point isn't to give people the experience of writing a novel. It's not to give an endurance/discipline test (though that's closer). It's to get people off the habit of endlessly analyzing and re-writing and getting hung up mid-stream, and to just write. Discipline is limited to "work" hours needed to get the word count goal met.
I agree with everything dannibal said in the post I quoted from above. Especially this part:


This is no different. An environment has been set up that newcomers and novices can enjoy, and learn without pressure. Nobody has said that finishers come out of the process skilled professional writers. I don't think people go into the process expecting that. To belittle the effort (for whatever reason) is just petty.

I'd also add that the NaNoWriMo event gets a lot of people started in the first place, so that they have something they can obsess over afterwords if they so choose.


Anyway, I know you keep on harping that being self-critical and constantly analyzing and tweaking your writing as you work is a bad thing.
I don't think anyone's saying that. I'm not. I'm just saying that delaying it can be a good thing if an exercise (and it IS an exercise, not a competition) like this gets people writing.

Besides, editing is what National Novel Editing Month is for: http://www.nanoedmo.org/ :)

Another major disconnect here seems to be that if writing a novel isn't good (or even as good as the writer is capable of) then it's worthless. It's particularly salient in this quote:


But, on the other hand, if you don't hear a creative voice, you have no business creating - like imagination, that is the sort of thing you either have or you don't.

To which I say, "Poppycock! Popycock, I say!" If a person writes a bad or substandard novel but has fun doing it or learns something, then it justifies the whole thing. It's not like these things are required reading. Saying that if you're not good at it you shouldn't do it is elitist and absurd. If a person enjoys it then let him do it, even if it IS homoerotic Buffy fanfiction.

Let's take me as an example: I did NaNoWriMo last year and wrote a novel despite whatever Jack may say. It's not all that great, but I had a lot of fun doing it and a lot of fun rewriting a second draft at a much more leisurely pace. My wife read it and says she enjoyed it well enough. She even offered some feedback and we had a few good conversations about the characters and why I did some of the things I did. I can tell you for a fact that I'm a better writer now than I was before I did the exercise.

Seems totally worth it to me.

But to be fair, DrCrypt did say this:


We're not belittling people's "effort". Good for them if they are happy with the results of this endurance contest. We're questioning whether or not in practice the contest philosophy results to writing quality novels, even down the line.
To which I ask, "Who said it would result in quality novels?"


It's a noble effort, really. But as odd as it may sound, it shouldn't be an effort. Any artwork shouldn't be forced. It will be work, to be sure, but if it becomes laborious, then it's not for you.
As other have said, this is kind of silly. A lot of great artists worked really hard and struggled to produce their art. To others it came easily. People differ.


Have any of you ever read the Stephan King's book on writing?
Oh no, let's not go there again. :) Just read this thread: http://www.quartertothree.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=13032

[TimElhajj]

I don't' think I'm raving. I'm talking about my creative process. I'm interested in discussing what works for me and what works for others. I've pointed out that separating the creative stage from the editing stage is advice that lots of authors give. I've also pointed out that volume is a strategy King advocates, and that I'm not sure it would work for me.

As for the compulsion to write being a cliché, I originally wrote that as a joke, but it really is a tired old saying. And how is it even relevant to the discussion of creative process? Were I to have asked you to determine for me if I am a writer, it might be more pertinent. Tossing that out seems more like a strategy for stifling a discussion about the creative process, than starting one.

[DrCrypt]

I feel like there is a lot of tension here because people just aren't getting what me and Jack are saying. For example, I said that someone who didn't hear a creative voice had no business creating.


To which I say, "Poppycock! Popycock, I say!" If a person writes a bad or substandard novel but has fun doing it or learns something, then it justifies the whole thing.
A creative voice has nothing to do with quality - it is simply one's own unique world view and their compulsion to share that view creatively.Why would someone who had no creative voice write a novel? What's so ridiculous or elitist about saying that?

Anyway, I think with all the bickering over specific illustrations, my point is being misinterpreted. So I'll say it again as clearly as possible: I can certainly see the merit in someone being fulfilled by engaging in this competition. Any exercise that makes people happy is okay in my book. I may question if they are truly cut out to be quality writers if this is the only thing that can get them moving, but I'm glad the exercise made them happy and, for their part, that is the only thing that matters. My only issue is with the philosophy of writing I feel the competition espouses, which I think is a philosophy that the creative writing community as a whole needs to turn away from. I think this competition could easily be revised to emphasize quality as well as quantity (or the real issue: fastidiousness). The literary world needs less Stephen King wanna-bes. That does not denigrate the merit I see in the competition making people happy, though - I see the worth of someone's personal fulfillment as being very different from the worth of a philosophy as a whole. If people can't separate the two issues in their minds, I'm sorry, but I can't express my point more clearly than that without recycling what I've already said.

[DrCrypt]

As for the compulsion to write being a cliché, I originally wrote that as a joke, but it really is a tired old saying. And how is it even relevant to the discussion of creative process? Were I to have asked you to determine for me if I am a writer, it might be more pertinent. Tossing that out seems more like a strategy for stifling a discussion about the creative process, than starting one.
It was a good joke, actually. :) But no one was trying to stifle anything - what Jack was saying was that he didn't understand how someone who didn't feel the drive to write outside of the competition would suddenly find that drive within it. Whether you agree with that or not, it is true that any exposition on a creative drive outside of that was ancillary to that specific point, and not an attempt to stifle criticism with elitist claims that other people weren't creative enough to write.

As I said in my first post, I think a good approach to writing is that you try to write good work and you don't put any artificial time constraints on how long it takes you to get it. You do the best you can and don't beat yourself up about time. I think artificial time restraints or quotas such as this competition or King espouse are very damaging to a writer's appreciation of doing quality work. I don't see page count or speediness as being as important as quality and I don't think they are as rewarding to a writer either. Other people have countered that slapshod work can be edited into something good and consequently has merit. I personally don't agree with that - I think that even rough work needs to be good for a novel as an edited, polished whole to be good. To give you another cliche, you can't build a house off a faulty foundation.I don't see the point of writing a novel under such a grueling deadline if the idea is not to worry about whether or not it is good. All this seems to me to encourage is working to a deadline, which is something a beginner novelist doesn't need to really do. He needs to get in the habit of writing, of moving forward, while simultaneously producing work he is happy with. It isn't the same as churning out five pages a day and "not worrying" about quality. Doing what I describe is hard, no doubt, and maybe the Novel Writing Competition does that for some people, but I guess I just don't see how, "human nature" aside.

[Jamie Madigan]

Why would someone who had no creative voice write a novel? What's so ridiculous or elitist about saying that?
If someone actually wrote a novel, I'd say they had a creative voice of some kind. I agree that it'd be pretty much impossible to do without one, no matter how soft or insane it may be.


Anyway, I think with all the bickering over specific illustrations, my point is being misinterpreted. So I'll say it again as clearly as possible: I can certainly see the merit in someone being fulfilled by engaging in this competition. Any exercise that makes people happy is okay in my book. I may question if they are truly cut out to be quality writers if this is the only thing that can get them moving, but I'm glad the exercise made them happy and, for their part, that is the only thing that matters. My only issue is with the philosophy of writing I feel the competition espouses, which I think is a philosophy that the creative writing community as a whole needs to turn away from. I think this competition could easily be revised to emphasize quality as well as quantity (or the real issue: fastidiousness). The literary world needs less Stephen King wanna-bes. That does not denigrate the merit I see in the competition making people happy, though - I see the worth of someone's personal fulfillment as being very different from the worth of a philosophy as a whole. If people can't separate the two issues in their minds, I'm sorry, but I can't express my point more clearly than that without recycling what I've already said.
I understand and pretty much agree with this. I think the arguments and the pull towards claims of elitism come from the assumption (mistaken or otherwise) that the writing has to be good to be worth it.

And there are safeguards of sorts against bad writing getting published. If someone writes something really terrible --and I mean really terrible, not just Stephen King terrible*-- then it will at best not get published and at worst not sell. Well ...the Internet has kind of circumvented that to some extent, but you still don't have to read it.

*For the record and as I've said before, I think King has done both bad and good work.

[TimElhajj]

And there are safeguards of sorts against bad writing getting published. If someone writes something really terrible --and I mean really terrible, not just Stephen King terrible*-- then it will at best not get published and at worst not sell.

Oh, please. I'm no apologist for King, but he's a huge success using the very metric you describe. He's been published. Repeatedly. People love his work.

[Jamie Madigan]

Oh, please. I'm no apologist for King, but he's a huge success using the very metric you describe. He's been published. Repeatedly. People love his work.
Read the footnote in my post above. I like King and think he can be very good. See also: my defense of King in this thread (http://www.quartertothree.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=284981#284981)

[DrCrypt]

Tim, do you always knee jerk so violently before you even get to the end of someone's post?

[TimElhajj]

He needs to get in the habit of writing, of moving forward, while simultaneously producing work he is happy with.

I think the idea I have seen others put forward is that you separate the creative stage from the editing stage. So instead of simultaneously producing work while moving forward, you would first create the work, and then edit the work. I have heard it described as using the left- and right-sides of your brain. I have no idea about how the brain works, but it really does seem to be a completely different type of process.

I also know that I have to find the story. I am not sure if that is a creative or editing process, but suspect it's a little of both. For example, I can know up front that I want to write a memoir. I know that I want to focus on a particular period in my life and I know what relationship figure prominently in this period. Beyond that, I only have a general sense about how to create the characters and setting. What sort of narrative arc to hang it all on, etc.

My guess is that I start with my memories of this period and move forward, writing it all down. I'm not sure that I would have to capture every memory between the target years to stop writing and start editing, but I think the idea is to find out what works.

During editing I figure out how to make it work as a story. I try to identify themes and figure out ways to weave them into the narrative. I consider all those points I raise above about characters and setting and evaluate how well I am achieving each.

When I get it to a certain point, I have to go back to the creative process. If I am really happy with my initial burst, this is where I can get into a problem. My second and third chapters don't stack up to the first, crisply edited chapter. Maybe my initial assumptions about what themes would figure prominently were off base and now these themes seemed forced. It might have been helpful to have created more initially. Or maybe it means I have to be more flexible right now. I dunno.

I don't think any of these problems are unique to memoir writing, but maybe I am wrong. Memoir is my current project, but this is what I did with every short story I have ever written.

Do you already know the book you are going to write before you write it? That's amazing, if that's what you do. It's like those stories you hear of POW's who build a house in their head brick by brick without every touching a single tool. I don't think I could do it myself, but the world is full of amazing stories.

I am sorry I snapped at you Crypt. It's probably got more to do with my own insecurities as a creative writer than anything you said. At any rate, I agree with some of what you've said. I am not sure deadlines will make me write, but I could be wrong. I haven't really tried writing to a deadline with creative stuff. I know it works for technical writing. :)

[TimElhajj]

Read the footnote in my post above. I like King and think he can be very good. See also: my defense of King in this thread (http://www.quartertothree.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=284981#284981)


Tim, do you always knee jerk so violently before you even get to the end of someone's post?

I read the footnotes, but not the thread. I was responding to the "Stephen King terrible" quote. If it was meant as an ironic joke, I just didn't get it. It seemed to me as if you really meant he could write terrible work, but you were also saying the publishing barrier would protect us from terrible work. I was pointing out a fact that you failed to mention, which is that King has shown an exceptional ability to be published.

I am not sure what is knee jerk about this. Is it not an obvious statement of fact?

[Jamie Madigan]

I read the footnotes, but not the thread. I was responding to the "Stephen King terrible" quote. If it was meant as an ironic joke, I just didn't get it.
I was trying to have it both ways, which probably led to the confusion. I was trying to stick with Crypt's example of King as less-than-great writing, but bought back the dig on King with the footnote.


It seemed to me as if you really meant he could write terrible work, but you were also saying the publishing barrier would protect us from terrible work. I was pointing out a fact that you failed to mention, which is that King has shown an exceptional ability to be published.
Thus the "not just Stephen King Terrible" comment. I'm drawing a distinction between NYT Best Seller offerings like King, Grisham, Clancey, etc. and the god-awful stuff you'll see if you search Google for "fan fiction".

[TimElhajj]

I just skimmed the other thread. I had actually read Kitsune's initial post when he first posted, but then got busy at work and couldn't keep up. I did briefly wonder what the hell was going on in that thread.

At any rate, I seemed to have inadvertantly stepped into a Stephen King mine field over here, some blow back from the original thread on who is a great writer. I think entire threads on who is a great writer are sort of silly. Anyone remember Desslock and Asher on LotR?

I don't think King is a great writer, but some of his work is very good. The last thing of his I read was The Girl Who Loved Tom Gordon (or something like that) and it was great--not horror, but probably not literary material either.

I like to think you can learn something from every writer. I haven't read On Writing myself, but I might one day.

It is a shame because I would like to discuss the creative process more, but it looks like this King stuff may have got us off the rails.

[VegasRobb]

I'm going to give this serious thought. I have a series of short stories I wrote as a youth and was able to get published that I might use as the inspiration.

What's a rough estimate of the time needed to produce 50,000 words? Are you guys thinking you can knock it out in a month or will more time be needed?

There was a time when I just flat out loved to write and worked hard at it and planned on doing it for a living. I received support from my teachers and peers and one day ... life happened and I haven't done much writing in about 10 or 16 years.

I keep a journal and friend remarked that she had never imagined that particular side of me ... the ability to write and relate events through text. She was very happy to see it and have access to it ... so maybe those muscles are still there, they're just packed under layers upon layers of fat?

Enough rambling.

I appreciate this thread and the discussion.

[Jamie Madigan]

I don't think King is a great writer, but some of his work is very good. The last thing of his I read was The Girl Who Loved Tom Gordon (or something like that) and it was great--not horror, but probably not literary material either.
I thought TGWLTG had a great premise (a 9-year old girl learns that the world has teeth and it WILL bite you) but it lost a lot in the execution. King just didn't sound like a 9-year old girl when he wrote Trish's inner monologues or dialogue. The whole "well, she's mature for her age" thing seemed like a copout.

King has definitely writtes some stuff that I would qualify as "great," though. The Talisman, The Stand, The Shining, Secret Garden Secret Window, and Pet Cemetary all come to mind.


I like to think you can learn something from every writer. I haven't read On Writing myself, but I might one day.
It's worth a read. The first half is autobiographical and mildly entertaining. The second half has some good advice on real basic mechanics of writing, plus a description of what kind of approach to writing in general works well for King.


It is a shame because I would like to discuss the creative process more, but it looks like this King stuff may have got us off the rails.
I'd be more than willing to discuss the creative process. My "OH NOES! Read the other thread!" reaction was just a starting point. :)


What's a rough estimate of the time needed to produce 50,000 words? Are you guys thinking you can knock it out in a month or will more time be needed?
It really varies by person, I suspect. Some people last year did it in a few days, though I suspect they either cheated or had very detailed notes going in. Others weren't able to hit the goal within the month.

I finished in 22 days by writing for about an hour and a half almost every morning, sometimes longer on weekends. This may make some people's heads explode, but here's an Excel spreadsheet charting my progress (http://www.jmadigan.net/nanowrimo/progress.xls). Yeah, I'm that kind of person. :)

[VegasRobb]

And it begins ...

... did anyone besides myself decide to take a shot at this?

[Alan Dunkin]

Well, some consensus is that if you write 2-3k words a day you aren't doing too bad. But writing is so subjective, you can spend half a day on one paragraph and not have a chapter flow correctly. Or you can just write non-stop and re-edit the whole thing from the ground up when you're done.

I suppose if you're a slow typer that can't help either :)

I thought about doing it this month and may do so for the hell of it. I've been dabbling in this for a long time now with nothing to show for it except a few form rejection letters so... keep plugging.

--- Alan

[John Many Jars]

I've decided to do it, not for its own sake but to give myself a kick in the ass.

For a long time I wrote every day (and I have an MFA and have published a bunch), but for the past two years serious writing has fallen more or less completely out of my life. So I'm participating just to turn those rusty gears again, without any particular expectations.

My "novel" is about three toys that I have on my desk at work. They're going to debate the problem of existence and then they're going to have a whimsical-but-dark, At Swim-Two-Birds-style adventure. I'm hoping to have some fun. :D

[Bub, Andrew]

2,000-3,000 words a day isn't "okay" - it's spectacular. And also crazy. Most authors I've spoken with aim for 1000 words a day and spend the rest of the day revising or staring at the wall.

[Nick Hyle]

... did anyone besides myself decide to take a shot at this?

Yeah, I'm digging. :D

[TimElhajj]

Most authors I've spoken with aim for 1000 words a day and spend the rest of the day revising or staring at the wall.

Sure, if you dont' mind taking well over two months to write a novel. If you were a NoMoWriNo mofo you could have written two novels in that time. :)

[TimElhajj]

... did anyone besides myself decide to take a shot at this?

Yeah, I'm digging. :D

Me too!

[Alan Dunkin]

Well, as I was trying to say, your mileage may very. Words per day is very subjective, and while most agree you should pace yourself, it usually doesn't happen that way. In a good writing session where everything is going well you can crank it out quite well without even knowing it. If you flow without thinking about it, that's a good day. As I said, some prefer to just write and write and revise when you get to a stopping point. It doesn't have to be every 30 minutes.

Novels are generally over 80k words in length. If you wrote 1000 words a day that'd take you three months, give or take a week or two. And that's a small novel.

For a size comparison, Dark Tower VI is roughly 128k words in length. The book is 432 pages, though the print (IMHO) is a bit large.

--- Alan

[Ben]

50K is unpublishably short, so it's not really write a novel to become a professional writer month.


Anyway, Micheal Crichton apparently wrote spy novels under a pen name at a pace of once a week while he was in med school. That's like 40 pages a day. Insane.

[TimElhajj]

Anyway, Micheal Crichton apparently wrote spy novels under a pen name at a pace of once a week while he was in med school.

Yeah, that's wack. You need at least a 4 weeks to write a novel. :)

[Alan Dunkin]

He wrote spy medical thrillers under a psuedonym in his medical school days. At least one was published under his real name a bit later in the early 90s that I remember reading (A Case of Need I think it was). It was okay I think, but nothing really memorable... kinda like Mack Bolan books. Don Pendleton must have been cranking those out about once a week for awhile..

--- Alan

[Jamie Madigan]

So, November and NaNoWriMo are over. Did anyone participate? If so, how did it go?

[TimElhajj]

My wife hit the mark. Yea! I wasn't as dedicated, but I did manage to get some good stuff down on the page (along with a bunch of crap).

[Bub, Andrew]

50K is unpublishably short, so it's not really write a novel to become a professional writer month.

That's not true. There are plenty of 110 page novels. Some are classics.
OF MICE & MEN is 29,000 words for crying out loud.

[VegasRobb]

I fell short, but it felt nice to get something out and on the page again. The thing I ran into was I kept finding my idea(s) already done. So I kept trying to redo them.

I'll definitely take a shot again next year, but I think I'm going to keep working on what I have until then.

[John Many Jars]

I liked my first day's output so much that I decided to turn it into something else entirely (i.e., not a novel), which I continue to work on. So I consider the operation a success. :D

[TimElhajj]

I liked my first day's output so much that I decided to turn it into something else entirely (i.e., not a novel), which I continue to work on. So I consider the operation a success. :D

What is it, John? I don't think you have to do a novel. I was working on a memoir. I got about 10k words before I succumbed to Half Life 2.

Fucking Valve.

[Tyrion Lannister]

I suck. I wrote an outline, plot arc, character arcs and a couple of conversations before an interesting math/programming problem occurred in my work life and I ended up spending every spare minute solving it. And then it was December.

Maybe I'll make January my novel writing month instead...

I lack discipline. :oops:

[VegasRobb]

Arise from the depths!

(And because someone referenced it on another forum.)

[VegasRobb]

Anyone else participating this year?

[RichVR]

Every year I look at the thing that is my novel. And then I bury it again. For the good of mankind.

You're welcome.

[russellmz00]

it was a dark, and stormy night...

[Flowers]

as Ewaunugude lay in his bed, tossing and turning, wild thunder crashed across the blackened countryside. It was not the sudden clap of the lightning blazing into a nearby tree that tore him back to consciousness, for his sleep was that of the spellbound. It was the thin crimson fingers waggling in shadow across his thunderlit form, unweaving the protections of the Aegradeou and their fell amulet, prodding their way into the webbed and tender corners of his very soul. He was not alone in his plush, silken throne of sleep. Revenge had come to him in a dream. Revenge for what he had done to Fozzy. Revenge was Animal.

[Daniel Morris]

50K is unpublishably short, so it's not really write a novel to become a professional writer month.

Mine was 38K and I found a publisher for it (small-press, admittedly).


Anyone else participating this year?

I am. A few acquaintances are really into it this year so I'm going to try to bang out a manuscript idea that's particularly well-suited to a minimal/kamikaze approach. I'm a horribly lazy writer so this as good an excuse as any to screw down.

[Steve Canyon]

Mine was 38K and I found a publisher for it (small-press, admittedly).

Congratulations! What did you write?


I'm going to try to bang out a manuscript idea that's particularly well-suited to a minimal/kamikaze approach.

I'm tyring to think of entire genres that benefit from minamilist style. All I can think of is porn and graphic novels. What else?

[noun]

I'm doing it this year! Got a few pages hammered out so far. I have no illusions about the final product being publishable; I just want to feel the joy of typing "The End" at the end of a manuscript.

Then again, fricking DAN BROWN has been repeatedly published, so I should have a shot...

[Flowers]

I'm tyring to think of entire genres that benefit from minamilist style. All I can think of is porn and graphic novels. What else?

How about those books about how to kill your ex-wife and live off the land without getting hassled by Johnny Law that they used to advertise in the back of Guns And Ammo?

[Flowers]

Then again, fricking DAN BROWN has been repeatedly published, so I should have a shot...


You should title your book, "Fuck Danger, I'm Dan Brown! The Dan Brown Story"

[jeffd]

I'm guessing a lot of Cormac McCarthy's stuff comes in at under 50k words. I'm certain The Road did.

[Kyle Wilson]

My novel's just six words long.

[soundnfury]

I was a little slow getting on this thread (I'm still making the QT3 newb mistake of thinking a thread I haven't seen is new), but I agree with most of Dr. Crypt's comments from a few pages back. I even sense a kindred spirit in struggling to find le mot juste. So, Dr. Crypt, have you finished that book yet?

[Daniel Morris]

Congratulations! What did you write?

Your basic poncey postmodern literary novel. My agent didn't think it had much commercial hope (he would know; he's sold a few No. 1 NYT bestsellers, including Flags of Our Fathers) so I sent it to a small press I admire and fortunately they were into it.

I'm working on something a bit more marketable for the big boys, but NaNoWriMo gives me a good excuse to punch out something closer to my wheelhouse.


I'm trying to think of entire genres that benefit from minamilist style. All I can think of is porn and graphic novels. What else?

I'm thinking Palahniuk (if that's a genre), or perhaps early Bret Easton Ellis or Joan Didion, where sometimes the chapters just end in mid-sentence when the gist of a scene has been sufficiently communicated. A series of staccato sketches that add up to a slender book like Play it As It Lays (which is the great American novel if anyone cares to check it out).

[VegasRobb]

My novel's just six words long.

Does that count as really being seven? :)

[VegasRobb]

Arise!

Anyone participating this year?

www.nanowrimo.org if you're curious.

[Rimbo]

The timing is just perfect for me this year. I just finished my first draft of my first novel, and I want to take a break before I go back, re-read it and start revising the living crap out of it, and this gives me something to do to keep writing and thinking about something else while I wait.

[Creole Ned]

I'm going to give this a shot. I'll probably churn out thousands of words of crap but it will be my crap and I shall cherish it!

[Hans Lauring]

I'll be writing a book, but not fiction and not in november.
I'll leave my job on the 7th of december with a severance check and I'm not planning on a new job before january/february depending on a possible non-fiction deal.

I'll save the much harder novel for later (and it'll probably be a screenplay instead)

[fire]

Any of you want a peer-review? I'm good at catching tense shifts other such grammar mistakes.

[fire]

Consider entering your shorter fiction to a contest.

Submission calendar for writing contests from Poets & Writers magazine:
http://www.pw.org/mag/0711/submissioncalendar.htm

[Brad Grenz]

Consider entering your shorter fiction to a contest.

Submission calendar for writing contests from Poets & Writers magazine:
http://www.pw.org/mag/0711/submissioncalendar.htm

I submitted a short story to Glimmer Train for their new writers contest. Their reading fee is reasonable and they've got a decent reputation.

The only problem with these kind of contests is how long it takes to hear back.

[Aeon221]

Arise!

Anyone participating this year?

www.nanowrimo.org (http://www.nanowrimo.org) if you're curious.

So, you really like this holiday, don't you.

I'ma give it a shot. If I come up with anything readable, I'll link it here.

[Linoleum]

I'll be banging some keys...once I get this milestone out the door anyway...

[John Merva]

Any of you want a peer-review? I'm good at catching tense shifts other such grammar mistakes.

Ironic!

[TimElhajj]

Consider entering your shorter fiction to a contest.

Submission calendar for writing contests from Poets & Writers magazine:
http://www.pw.org/mag/0711/submissioncalendar.htm

Ungh. I have sworn off contests with entry fees. They're all fixed!

[fire]

Ironic!
Luckily QT3 isn't itself a wealth of grammatical correctness. winky

[Aeon221]

Your engrish is werra guuuud.

[Rimbo]

I'm thinking a tragic horror novel, the sordid tale of a zombie whose house becomes haunted by necrophiliacs.

Things only get worse from there.

I am getting a late start here, but this kind of thing should just write itself.

[Aeon221]

I'm about three quarters of the way through a short story, and I'll post it up here sometime tomorrow or the day after.

It isn't anywhere near ten thousand words, let alone fifty thousand, but I'm fairly happy with it thus far.

The hardest part was definitely the opening paragraphs, and I've not managed to write anything satisfactory for them despite multiple attempts... so I went with the lesser evil and continued plugging away. It turns out that the reveal is by far the easiest bit to write, and that everything just sort of flows along once you really get started.

My first few attempts were traditional adventure stories -- I figured that I could easily outwrite the hacks that pump out page after page of crap. Imagine my surprise when I, after metaphorically putting pen to paper, was unable to come up with anything at all. I then tried a few other ideas based on some of my favorite books, but nothing came out well. I've ended up with a horror tale of the gothic variety. It was fairly easy to write, as the tone of such works is fairly similar to that of an essay, something I am quite familiar with.

I'm somewhat surprised that I ended up with the same idea as Rimbo (minus the zombie on human orgy), despite not having seen his comment until well after I had begun my own tale.

Hopefully I'll not be the only one putting something up here, as I'm sure to be mightily embarrassed.

[Rimbo]

Jeez. Can't I do anything original?

[Eduardo X]

I'm slightly behind schedule at 21,000 words, and it gets tougher and tougher seeing as how this is probably the best November ever for gaming, but I'm making it, just looking forward to my free time in December.
My story is fairly straight-forward sacrilege. God acts in a power hungry manner and humans try to resist. I like!
It's my first novel, and my first attempt beyond two pages at fiction in perhaps 8 years, but I'm enjoying it, and I think I'm becoming a better poet because of it. Time will tell.

[Rimbo]

I'm at only 6,652. I started late, but I also haven't had much time for it -- as usual. So I won't make it, but I'll keep going anyway.

[Aeon221]

Jeez. Can't I do anything original?

Apparently neither of us can. Well, you do have your webcomic niche, so I guess you're one up on me. Damn.

[Rimbo]

I'm not the only one who's into these webcomics, though. Just the only one who likes to stab fellow QT3 forum-goers in the eyes with the worst puns and most obscure in-jokes.

Anyhow, I know I'm not on a pace to finish in time -- I haven't even hit 10,000 words, yet. I have a slower pace than is required to finish a novel in a month; however, it is a pace that is steady and keeps moving forward, so much like the heroine of my novel and other zombies, it will get where it's going, even if it doesn't get there as quickly as it could, because it never rests. And it'd help if I spent less time posting here, I guess. :)

[fire]

At least you're not paralyzed because you can't figure out translators' rights.

[Rimbo]

Translator's rights?

Because a character needs to know what they are, or because you're translating something and need to know where you stand?

[fire]

The latter. A publication I'm considering submitting to asks for the translation along with the original. I'm having a hard time just copy-pasting the original and sending it off.

[Dirt]

If it's on-line, can you just transfer it to Word and clean that up?

[Rimbo]

I just wrote 2,102 words -- like, legitimate words -- in the past hour. I rule.

Or rather, I type fast.

I'm surprised how fast this is going, when I actually set aside time to do it.

[Aeon221]

At least you weren't stopped by the need for booze. I've got less than five hundred words to write to end my story, and I can't, because either I'm drunk or other people want to become drunk. Or class, but who counts that.

[fire]

If it's on-line, can you just transfer it to Word and clean that up?
The problem is with permissions. I can't submit something that isn't mine (i.e., the original to accompany my translation) without obtaining rights... can I?

[Brad Grenz]

Do they want to publish the original along side? Or do they just want to evaluate the accuracy of your translation? I'd assume it's the latter and there wouldn't be an issue there.

[fire]

No, the magazine publishes the original side-by-side with the translation. I assume I have to secure permissions before I send the original with the translation, but who knows. I don't! The editors haven't responded (and doubtful they will).

[Brad Grenz]

Hmm. In that case if they accepted your translation I imagine securing publication rights to the original text would be up to them. I'd send in the original with translation (as a matter of fair use) and if they actually want it at that point they'd have to look into the copyright further. I'm no authority, though.

[VegasRobb]

It's that time of the year :)

Anyone participating?

[mrbloo]

I might use this month as an impetus to get off my arse and finish my novel before I outgrow it.

[Creole Ned]

I tried last year and failed miserably. This year I have made a concerted effort to increase my writing output and have actually banged out a number of short stories, so I might give it another go.

[Miramon]

Seems to me they're kind of fibbing about the length. I mean, really, 50,000 words! That's a novella or something for most practical purposes. Flipping open a few random books at hand (deliberately not choosing any fantasy blockbusters :)), I do see one with just 250 words a page (double spaced!), but mostly they seem to have more like 400. At a modest 250 page length, that's 100K. I bet Anathem is close to 500,000!

I suppose 50K is more feasible goal for someone who hasn't written one before, but it would be disappointing for it to actually turn out to be good, and then be too long to publish in a magazine, and too short to publish in a book.

I guess in one of those large-font odd-format trade paperbacks you might occasionally see a 50,000 word novel, especially from an established author, but I doubt they're often salable at that length from new authors.

That being said, it's a tempting thing to try and do. I have 15,000 words sitting on the back-burner right now not really going anywhere, it would be nice to have some artificial motivation to finish it by a fixed date.

Meanwhile my father is just cranking out 25,000 word stories that he doesn't even want to publish....

[Brad Grenz]

That's just word count inflation. Once upon a time a guy like Hemingway could write a 100 page book and call it a novel. Today people think they're getting a bad value if the paperback they buy for $6 is less than 300 pages.

[Creole Ned]

I just read Childhood's End and it only comes in at just over 200 pages. I definitely do not buy into the "novel = billion words" philosophy. A good short novel is fine with me!

[Miramon]

That's just word count inflation. Once upon a time a guy like Hemingway could write a 100 page book and call it a novel. Today people think they're getting a bad value if the paperback they buy for $6 is less than 300 pages.
Indeed, you're right. But I was talking about what can be readily published today, not what novels should be like.

[Creole Ned]

Aye, a lot of people will pick up a thin novel and think "That's it? What a gyp! I want trees to die for my reading pleasure, many many trees!"

[Mark Crump]

Seems to me they're kind of fibbing about the length. I mean, really, 50,000 words! That's a novella or something for most practical purposes. Flipping open a few random books at hand (deliberately not choosing any fantasy blockbusters :)), I do see one with just 250 words a page (double spaced!), but mostly they seem to have more like 400. At a modest 250 page length, that's 100K. I bet Anathem is close to 500,000!

I suppose 50K is more feasible goal for someone who hasn't written one before, but it would be disappointing for it to actually turn out to be good, and then be too long to publish in a magazine, and too short to publish in a book.

I guess in one of those large-font odd-format trade paperbacks you might occasionally see a 50,000 word novel, especially from an established author, but I doubt they're often salable at that length from new authors.

That being said, it's a tempting thing to try and do. I have 15,000 words sitting on the back-burner right now not really going anywhere, it would be nice to have some artificial motivation to finish it by a fixed date.

Meanwhile my father is just cranking out 25,000 word stories that he doesn't even want to publish....


Yeah, they are. But the goal of the project is first to show that you can write 50k. Whether it's good and the accurate length are secondary.

[Adam Sensoy]

Indeed, you're right. But I was talking about what can be readily published today, not what novels should be like.

50,000 is on the low side but would always be considered a novel. Look at the criteria for Hugo and other awards to see the breakdowns for short stories, novels, and novellas. It's a short novel, but it qualifies nonetheless. I know Neil Gaiman once said an ideal target is about 75,000 (somewhere buried on his blog), and most mass market licensed books (Star Trek, et al) seem to have an absolute upper limit of about 100k and stray closer to 75k.

I think 50k is too short, but it's also a good starting point. There is no novel written during NaNoWriMo that is even remotely going to be ready to be published. I would be shocked if many of those that go on to be published aren't lengthened and filled out and then again edited down a bit.

I am participating for the first time, but I am struggling so far my first two days. This is not my first attempt to do something like this and I find the word count entirely workable, but I am suffering from a serious case of lack of confidence right now, and worse, lack of time. I will still perservere though!

[Austin Arlitt]

Aye, a lot of people will pick up a thin novel and think "That's it? What a gyp! I want trees to die for my reading pleasure, many many trees!"

I see what you did there.

But anyway, I'm trying to use National Novel Writing Month to get my larger novel off the ground. It's been gestating for six months, and I plan to have it finished by Writing Month 2009.

I suppose you could say I'm... book-ending my novel with National Novel Writing Months! (I sincerely apologize, and I can assure you that my real writing includes puns only of much greater sophistication.)