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sellthekids
11-21-2002, 07:47 AM
since i know most of you guys would prolly miss this article:

from 11/21/02 WSJ - Personal Journal section
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Xbox? PlayStation? GameCube?
A Grown-Up's Guide to Games

By KHANH T.L. TRAN
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL


A lot of parents are discovering it's time to bone up on Grand Theft Auto.

In the past few years, three major players have come to dominate the home videogame market: Sony Corp., which makes two different version of its PlayStation; Microsoft Corp., purveyor of the Xbox; and Nintendo Co., father of the hand-held Game Boy and now the higher-end GameCube, which hooks up to a TV. With so many machines and thousands of pieces of software -- including some controversial games such as Sony's popular car-thief series -- deciding which if any game machine to buy for your child can be a bear.

Not every machine has parental controls, for example. Some of the hottest games can be played only on certain hardware. And then there's the issue of price. The Xbox (Microsoft) and PlayStation 2 (Sony) both sell for $199 -- so which is better?

The emergence of all these machines has led to a war for control of the nation's living rooms. At the moment, Sony is the clear leader, with its PlayStation 2 outselling the Xbox four to one. But Microsoft, the newest entrant, is spending gobs of money to try to turn the tables. And all three key makers, while not making outright price cuts for the holidays, are offering other come-ons to juice sales.

One trend this year: deals that bundle hardware and software for a single price. That could work nicely for parents who don't know the difference between Mario and Madden. (Both are portly fellows who have games named after them, but one is a fictitious moustachioed plumber, the other a real ex-football coach.) Other incentives involve rebates and prizes. A sample: People who buy two games based on Nickelodeon shows can get a free SpongeBob SquarePants carrying case for their Game Boy.

A side-by-side comparison of the major machines shows some significant differences -- everything from the type of people who buy them to the games that work on them. Sony's strongsuit, for example, is that it has many more games on the shelves than other makers. The PlayStation 2 also doubles as a DVD player.

Microsoft's machine is the only one that comes with parental controls built-in. By year end, it will also have the most online games. That lets players go up against any other person on the Web instead of having to play their best friend for the hundredth time.

Where does Nintendo fit into the mix? It has long been a favorite among younger kids, because of its Mario Bros. and Pokemon series. But it has had less appeal among the older set partly because it lacks a DVD player.

The companies are trying hard this year to broaden their reach. Sony, for instance, is offering more games for kids and teenagers, including Ratchet & Clank, a sci-fi adventure game where the player uses a variety of high-tech gadgets. Microsoft, meanwhile, is veering off into a new domain by focusing heavily on online games. And Nintendo is pitching for older players, with titles like Resident Evil Zero, a zombie-bashing horror game.

Record Year?

The holiday season is a crucial period for the U.S. videogame industry, which generates about half its annual revenue during the final quarter. Despite the general economic downturn, sales of hardware and software are already up 25% this year, and the industry is on track for a record year, according to NPDFunworld, a market-research firm. Analysts say consumers may consider home-based games a way to cut back on entertainment expenses. Still, some surveys suggest shoppers could grow tighter-fisted with their videogame spending in the next couple of months.

One way companies are trying to break through that barrier is with "bundling," a sort of value-meal approach that packages hardware and software together for less than the two parts sell for individually. Bundling also saves parents the hassle of having to scour aisles for products that they may know little about. One example: For $199, Microsoft is selling an Xbox machine and two programs -- Sega Corp.'s Jet Set Radio Future in-line skating game and the Sega GT 2002 racing game. Microsoft says consumers are essentially getting two games free, since the Xbox alone costs $199. A caveat: Bundles usually contain games that were released earlier this year or even last year.

The Decision

For parents, here's what the game-machine decision boils down to: You can play more than 350 games on the PlayStation 2. Some will only work on the PlayStation 2, such as DDRMAX Dance Dance Revolution, where players dance on mats to mimic moves they see on screen. (Mats sold separately.) One downside: Operating its DVD player with a hand control is unwieldy.

While the Xbox lacks Sony's selection of games, its parental controls may sway some families. This feature is particularly important because Microsoft is simultaneously targeting adult players with new games that weave murder and robbery through the storylines. (Games come with audience-specific labels: "M" for mature, or ages 17 and up; "T" for teen; "E" for everyone and "AO" for adults only.)

Microsoft's other selling point is that by year-end it says it will have as many as 14 games that can be played online. The catch is that you need a high-speed Internet connection and a $50 starter kit from the company to take part.

Nintendo, maker of the other major console, the GameCube, churns out lots of games that are popular with kids. At $149.95, it's cheaper than PlayStation 2 and Xbox, and is the most compact of the consoles.

Nintendo also makes the hand-held Game Boy Advance, which has little competition. But remember, hand-helds are a different beast. They have none of the online potential, and can't play DVDs. On the upside, they are great for car trips.

Some of the videogame deals this year come with memory cards and additional hand controls thrown in. But do you really need these things? Depends on the machine, and the games you want to play. A memory card is essential if you are halfway through a game and want to save your place. Xbox is the exception; it has a hard drive onto which data can be saved. An extra set of controllers is important in, say, a sports game if a player wants to duke it out against another person instead of vying against the console's artificial intelligence. Keep in mind that some games are made for only one player.

For the price-conscious shopper, there's another option: the original PlayStation, which has the lowest price ($49.99) and an even larger library of games than the PlayStation 2. Companies are still making new games for the seven-year-old PlayStation, including the latest installment of Activision Inc.'s Tony Hawk skateboarding series and Electronic Arts Inc.'s Madden NFL professional football line. "To be honest with you, I don't think [PlayStation] is going to go away in a hurry," says Nick Shepherd, executive vice president at Blockbuster Inc., which sells and rents videogame machines and software.

Write to Khanh T.L. Tran at khanh.tran@wsj.com

Updated November 20, 2002 11:59 p.m. EST


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Why a $10 Cable Has Upset
Nintendo's Young Customers

By MICHELLE HIGGINS and KHANH T.L. TRAN
Staff Reporters of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL


Some of Nintendo's most important customers -- people like 13-year-old Michael Quinn -- are getting steamed about a $10 cable.

Michael likes Nintendo so much that he got his mom to stand in line at 8 a.m. to buy him the new GameCube TV console when it came out last year. So when Nintendo recently started selling a cable to connect the GameCube to his other Nintendo machine, the Game Boy Advance hand-held, he wanted it for his birthday.

"I thought it would be a huge step up," Michael says. Instead, it has been a letdown.

The ability to connect the two devices was supposed to be a hit with kids -- and is core to Nintendo's marketing strategy. The goal: persuade more players to buy both machines, instead of just one. Players with a cable could get new games, and also the ability to download stuff into the hand-held -- things other kids on the playground couldn't do unless they had both devices, too.

But some customers say Nintendo promised too much and hasn't delivered. As recently as six months ago, there were only three games that took advantage of the cable. Today, nearly a year after GameCube was launched, there are just 22, although at least five more are expected next year. But most of these games require you to buy two copies of the same game -- one for the Game Boy, and another for the GameCube -- costing nearly twice as much.

It's just a "big marketing gimmick," says Gregg Keefer, a Jacksonville, Fla., toy maker who was so annoyed by the shortcomings he has posted derisive messages on Internet chat rooms about it.

George Harrison, a senior vice president at Nintendo's U.S. unit, says the company has received fewer than 200 calls from consumers regarding the connectivity. He says the company usually gets more than 60,000 inquiries a week about its products. Nintendo adds that a small percentage of callers asked when more games featuring connectivity would be available.

Some game reviewers are skeptical of the cable's usefulness. "There's no real added value," says Erik Bondurant, a 19-year-old reviewer who has tested the system for some game Web sites. For example, Sonic Advance and Sonic Adventure 2: Battle -- the first titles to take advantage of the cable link -- use it to move special animal-like creatures, called Chao, back and forth between the GameCube and Game Boy. Neat, but "it didn't really make the game better," Mr. Bondurant says. The cable also lets players use the Game Boy as an extra controller for the GameCube.

One sign of trouble in Nintendo's strategy is that just last month, the company scaled back its forecasts for shipments of GameCube and Game Boy Advance machines in its fiscal year ending next March because of slumping global sales. Earlier this year, the company also cut the price of Game Boy Advance and GameCube by as much as a third. Microsoft and Sony have cut their prices by similar amounts on their Xbox and market-leading PlayStation 2 machines this year as well.

Nintendo says it is optimistic about holiday sales of both systems in the U.S. as it prepares to release a slew of games that can't be played on competing Xbox and PlayStation 2 game systems.

All this connectivity -- including two new gizmos that are designed to connect Nintendo players and machines to each other -- is elemental to Nintendo's strategy to regain an edge in the videogame wars. Nintendo has a lock on the market for hand-held games -- its two main rivals, Microsoft and Sony, make no hand-held machines at all. But Nintendo is battling cash-rich Microsoft for second place in the game-console business behind Sony and its PlayStation 2. The cable was supposed to help drive those sales by encouraging players to buy both the hand-held and the GameCube console.

The connectivity between the devices is so important that Nintendo's former president, Hiroshi Yamauchi, created a special fund of roughly $170 million to help game developers make games that take advantage of the link between the hand-held player and the TV console. If Nintendo doesn't soon release more titles that impress gamers, the company could lose momentum during the important holiday season when game makers generate sales and buzz for their products. The U.S. game industry makes about half of its annual revenue in the last three months of the year.

Still, some players remain hopeful that the cable will catch on. Gene Poole, a diehard Nintendo fan who has been playing its games since 1985, is taking a wait-and-see approach. "The No. 1 reason I've stuck with Nintendo is they tend to release [games] more slowly than competitors. But they tend to be better quality," says the 28-year-old from Alberta.

On his holiday wish list: Metroid Prime, which came out this week. Nintendo promises it will have "sweet special features" when used with the cable, including a new armored spacesuit for the game's main character to wear.

Write to Michelle Higgins at michelle.higgins@wsj.com and Khanh T.L. Tran at khanh.tran@wsj.com

Updated November 20, 2002 10:11 p.m. EST

Wholly Schmidt
11-21-2002, 07:54 AM
That first article is downright weird in some places. "Two versions of it's Playstaion."

Ben Sones
11-21-2002, 07:59 AM
Yeah, and "You can play more than 350 games on the PlayStation 2. Some will only work on the PlayStation 2..."

I think it's safe to say that ALL PlayStation 2 games will only work on the PlayStation 2. I guess he's talking about games that get released on multiple platforms, or games from the PS1 library, but to the average non-game-savvy consumer (which this article is clearly aimed at), this sentence seems to suggest that some PlayStation 2 games will work on your Xbox (and since that sentence is meant to be a point in favor of the PS2, then ipso facto all of the Xbox games will work on a PS2). It's just an unfortunate choice of wording.

DrCrypt
11-21-2002, 08:02 AM
The second one is worse:
But most of these games require you to buy two copies of the same game -- one for the Game Boy, and another for the GameCube -- costing nearly twice as much.
No. They are two different games that share similar characters. That's like saying Donkey Kong is the same game as Mario Sunshine.
It's just a "big marketing gimmick," says Gregg Keefer, a Jacksonville, Fla., toy maker who was so annoyed by the shortcomings he has posted derisive messages on Internet chat rooms about it.
I like how the Wall Street Journal is using random messages on Internet chat rooms as definitive sources. Next headline from the WSJ: Worldwide Outcry Against Cute Puppies! "dey sux0rz" says deathz0r on ICQ.

sellthekids
11-21-2002, 08:04 AM
That first article is downright weird in some places. "Two versions of it's Playstaion."

you are missing the accompanying chart that shows four consoles available for Xmas shoppers...the fourth being the PS1.

the chart has info like:
cost
# of games by Xmas
Exclusive games
Pros
Cons
Bottom line

here is some of that info:
Sony PlayStation 2:
Pros = Has one of the largest library of games, second only to the original PlayStation. Can play DVD movies.
Cons = Using the game controller to operate the DVD player is awkward. The other option: shell out $20 for a DVD remote control.
Bottom Line = The safe bet, with lots of games to choose from and a sleek look

Microsoft Xbox:
Pros = Parental controls let users restrict the software that can be played. Also, by year end Xbox will have the most online games.
Cons = Need to buy a special remote control, for about $30, to play DVD movies; many of the online games aren't suitable for kids.
Bottom Line = Good gift for older kids who've developed a taste for playing games on the Internet, via their PCs.

Nintendo GameCube:
Pros = Nintendo dominates the young kids' sector with games featuring cute characters such as Mario and Pokemon.
Cons = Can't play DVD movies on this system; company only has one online game, and you need a $35 modem to play it.
Bottom Line = Not as trendy as the PlayStation 2 or the Xbox, but it's cute and compact, which will appeal to some younger kids.

Sony PlayStation:
Pros = It's the lowest-priced console on the market, and has the largest library of games.
Cons = The graphics, speed and cachet of the seven-year-old system aren't what you get with the newer systems.
Bottom Line = Your child may razz you, but it's a respectable machine for thrifty parents.

Mike Cathcart
11-21-2002, 08:14 AM
Microsoft's machine is the only one that comes with parental controls built-in. By year end, it will also have the most online games. That lets players go up against any other person on the Web instead of having to play their best friend for the hundredth time.

Yeah, fuck you, best friend.

Mark Asher
11-21-2002, 08:16 AM
Both pieces were particulary poor, considering they appeared in the WSJ. It's obvious the writer didn't know much about the consoles until he got the assignment to write the piece.

sellthekids
11-21-2002, 08:21 AM
Both pieces were particulary poor, considering they appeared in the WSJ. It's obvious the writer didn't know much about the consoles until he got the assignment to write the piece.

why so?

to me, i think this is how the mainstream public sees gaming. the "two copies needed" for the GBA and GC linking is a perception, but i think it might be valid. i dunno.

what did you see that stuck out as crappy writing?

Anonymous
11-21-2002, 08:45 AM
Both pieces were particulary poor, considering they appeared in the WSJ. It's obvious the writer didn't know much about the consoles until he got the assignment to write the piece.
That's a "she", by the way. I met her at the Microsoft event in Vegas. And as far as I could tell, she does know about consoles and PC gaming.

Mark Asher
11-21-2002, 09:24 AM
"The PlayStation 2 also doubles as a DVD player."

There's no mention that the Xbox does also. You'd go away thinking that only the PS2 doubles as a DVD player.

"You can play more than 350 games on the PlayStation 2. Some will only work on the PlayStation 2...."

As Ben noted, a silly statement. If she wanted to include PSOne titles, in which case her sentence would make sense, the number would be far higher than 350.

"The catch is that you need a high-speed Internet connection and a $50 starter kit from the company to take part."

A quibble, but I think a better researched article would have mentioned that you might need a router if you're already using the broadband connection for your PC, and some mention of the PS2's online capability should have been mentioned also. It strikes me as not thorough.

"Nintendo also makes the hand-held Game Boy Advance, which has little competition. But remember, hand-helds are a different beast. They have none of the online potential, and can't play DVDs. On the upside, they are great for car trips."

Another quibble. You can hook them up with other GBAs for a multiplayer experience. Perhaps there wasn't room in the article, but some mention of the upcoming (I think) MP3 adapter for GBA would have been nice, and mention also of the upcoming GBA adapter for the Gamecube, though perhaps that news was too late to fit in.

"A memory card is essential if you are halfway through a game and want to save your place."

What? You can't save your game without a memory card? This is misleading at best.

From the cable story -- which in itself is a bit goofy, since we're talking about consumers being upset over a $10 product. I'm not sure that warrants WSJ coverage, but it's better than another story about violence in videogames at least. As you can see, the cable product is a burning issue:

"George Harrison, a senior vice president at Nintendo's U.S. unit, says the company has received fewer than 200 calls from consumers regarding the connectivity. He says the company usually gets more than 60,000 inquiries a week about its products."

Yep, stop the presses. Then, out of the blue in an article about game device, comes this:

"One sign of trouble in Nintendo's strategy is that just last month, the company scaled back its forecasts for shipments of GameCube and Game Boy Advance machines in its fiscal year ending next March because of slumping global sales. Earlier this year, the company also cut the price of Game Boy Advance and GameCube by as much as a third. Microsoft and Sony have cut their prices by similar amounts on their Xbox and market-leading PlayStation 2 machines this year as well."

That's probably a better topic for WSJ videogame article, but it's just stuck in the middle of this piece. Very strange, as it has nothing to do with the cable thingy. I did find this interesting and wish it had been elaborated on:

"All this connectivity -- including two new gizmos that are designed to connect Nintendo players and machines to each other -- is elemental to Nintendo's strategy to regain an edge in the videogame wars. Nintendo has a lock on the market for hand-held games -- its two main rivals, Microsoft and Sony, make no hand-held machines at all. But Nintendo is battling cash-rich Microsoft for second place in the game-console business behind Sony and its PlayStation 2. The cable was supposed to help drive those sales by encouraging players to buy both the hand-held and the GameCube console."

I'm assuming that Nintendo's hope is that GBA owners would be interested in buying the Gamecube because of this feature. I can't imagine GBA needs any kind of sales boost. It would be an interesting angle if Nintendo really was trying to leverage their dominance in the handheld market to spur Gamecube sales, but that wasn't made clear.

So no, I wasn't impressed with these articles, and if the writer understands the gaming scene well, that didn't come across.

Erik
11-21-2002, 09:35 AM
What? You can't save your game without a memory card? This is misleading at best.

Why is this misleading? I think it's a great observation for novice console buyers. Both the Gamecube and PS2 effectively require the purchase of a 20 dollar (more?) add on in order to really be able to play virtually any game.

Anonymous
11-21-2002, 09:53 AM
uh, N includes those cards in some games and they are like 10$, not 20$

also, how can ps2 be 2nd fiddle to ps1 library-wise? It plays all ps1 games ffs. I can't come up with math where that works, and ANYONE who knows ANYTHING about console gaming at least knows ps2 plays ps1 discs.

Bub, Andrew
11-21-2002, 09:59 AM
There's no mention that the Xbox does also. You'd go away thinking that only the PS2 doubles as a DVD player.


Yes there is, there's a chart and she mentions the $30 remote for the Xbox.

Erik
11-21-2002, 10:02 AM
uh, N includes those cards in some games and they are like 10$, not 20$

Uh, okay. No game I've ever bought, but I'll take your word for it that a few do. I still don't get how it's misleading to point out that the gamecube and ps2 require an extra investment (10 bucks for the GC, 25 for the ps2 - unless you want to risk using 3rd party stuff) in order to have what amounts to basic functionality. I'm not saying there's anything unfair about it, but it does make them 10 and 25 dollars more expensive than the sticker price.

Mark Asher
11-21-2002, 10:09 AM
What? You can't save your game without a memory card? This is misleading at best.

Why is this misleading? I think it's a great observation for novice console buyers. Both the Gamecube and PS2 effectively require the purchase of a 20 dollar (more?) add on in order to really be able to play virtually any game.

There aren't checkpoint saves anymore? Is this true of all console games now, that you literally have to start from the beginning again if you have no memory card? I guess I haven't kept up.

Erik
11-21-2002, 10:12 AM
There aren't checkpoint saves anymore?

Not really, unless you wanna leave the system on all the time and never switch games until you finish one.

Mark Asher
11-21-2002, 10:15 AM
There's no mention that the Xbox does also. You'd go away thinking that only the PS2 doubles as a DVD player.


Yes there is, there's a chart and she mentions the $30 remote for the Xbox.

Didn't see the chart because it wasn't in the original post. Still, it's bad writing as is. Why on earth didn't she simply write that both the PS2 and Xbox had DVD capability? "The PlayStation 2 and Xbox also double as DVD players." Is there really a defense for not doing that? It makes the writer look ignorant.

Mark Asher
11-21-2002, 10:16 AM
There aren't checkpoint saves anymore?

Not really, unless you wanna leave the system on all the time and never switch games until you finish one.

I stand corrected then. I thought platformers always saved at checkpoints or the end of the level.

Squirrel Killer
11-21-2002, 10:27 AM
I stand corrected then. I thought platformers always saved at checkpoints or the end of the level.

Unless you have a memory card for the PS1/2, GC, and DC (Saturn too maybe?), there's no place for the console to save to. To my knowledge, there's no persistent storage on those consoles except for the memory card (and clock.)

-sk

Wholly Schmidt
11-21-2002, 11:05 AM
The Saturn actually had a small amount of memory in the machine, functionally a built-in memory card.

When console games started getting long enough to need to save your progress, they either built in EEPROM (or something like that, it's not important what it was specifically) memory that could hold saved data while the game was off or they put in something like a password system. When the Saturn and PSX started using CD's EEPROM was no longer an option and password saves are generally too cumbersome and irritating. Like I said, the Saturn had some memory internally to save to but also offered memory cartridges (they were roughly the size of Genesis games) while the PSX offered it's memory cards.

The N64's decision to stick with cartridges meant they could continue saving games to the actual game cartridge with no need of memory cards, but they included memory card support as an option. Most games used either one, a few only allowed one or the other for whatever reason. Memory cards on the N64 were most functional as a means of taking a saved game elsewhere, your buddy's house or whatever.

The PS2 stuck with memory cards, the Dreamcast stuck with memory cards as well (though they tried to innovate them a bit). Now the Xbox has the hard drive and much like the N64, memory cards become useful only if you want to move saved games around.

As for memory cards and DVD playing capabilities, they way I look at it is I'd rather play my games right out of the box than play DVD's right out of the box. With the Xbox, you are required to buy a DVD remote ($30 though there are several rebate/refund deals available most of the time) to play DVD's, with the PS2 you are required to buy a memory card ($25 for official Sony brand though you can find cheaper) to play games. I know which I'd rather go with, but ultimately neither of these issues factored heavily if at all in my choice of console.

Desslock
11-21-2002, 01:57 PM
What about the obvious pro/con -- that the Xbox is a much more capable system, in terms of quality of graphics, while the PS2's graphical capabilities are badly outdated?

Reeko
11-21-2002, 03:17 PM
What about the obvious pro/con -- that the Xbox is a much more capable system, in terms of quality of graphics, while the PS2's graphical capabilities are badly outdated?

Did you have a bad day in court or something? Because in some areas, them's fightin' words.

Mark Asher
11-21-2002, 03:25 PM
What about the obvious pro/con -- that the Xbox is a much more capable system, in terms of quality of graphics, while the PS2's graphical capabilities are badly outdated?

There don't seem to be many, if even any, Xbox games that have such superior graphics as to be remarkably different -- at least in the games I've seen. I'm sure the TV display is a limiting factor in many cases. Heck, I think Dreamcast games still compare well. Maybe I'm going blind or something.

Anonymous
11-21-2002, 03:36 PM
Heck, I think Dreamcast games still compare well. Maybe I'm going blind or something.

You're not. The Dreamcast is very comparable to the PS2 in graphic power.

xahlt
11-21-2002, 03:47 PM
Wait a minute, Mark, if you end up admitting in half the console threads that you are unable to distinguish any differences of graphic fidelity, you should maybe stop arguing on those points :)

Ben Sones
11-21-2002, 04:03 PM
There don't seem to be many, if even any, Xbox games that have such superior graphics as to be remarkably different -- at least in the games I've seen. I'm sure the TV display is a limiting factor in many cases. Heck, I think Dreamcast games still compare well. Maybe I'm going blind or something.

Didn't you say in some earlier post that your Xbox is hooked up to a little 20" TV?

Some Xbox games really don't look much better than games on other consoles, just like Postal 2 won't look good even on an Athlon 2800 with a GeForce 4. The ones that take advantage of the hardware and have good tech and art direction do look better than games on either the Cube or the PS2.

Don Quixote
11-21-2002, 04:51 PM
You're not. The Dreamcast is very comparable to the PS2 in graphic power.

I'd say that the Xbox is as far above the PS2 as the PS2 is above the Dreamcast. Many games for the DC were damn nice looking compared to PS2 stuff. Similarly, many PS2 games look pretty good compared to many GC and Xbox games. But games programmed specifically for the Xbox and GC look amazingly better than pretty much anything out for the PS2, and this isn't going to get any better. Launch games for the Xbox were on par or better for the PS2 games of the time, and a year later, there is just no contest (see Splinter Cell, PDO, Deathrow, Enclave, Steel Battalion).

Mark Asher
11-21-2002, 08:43 PM
"But games programmed specifically for the Xbox and GC look amazingly better...."

Could you qualify that in terms of a PC experience? I'd say Quake III looks amazingly better than Quake and noticably better than Quake II, for example.

Mark Asher
11-21-2002, 08:47 PM
"Didn't you say in some earlier post that your Xbox is hooked up to a little 20" TV?"

Yeah. We didn't want it hooked up to our main TV because then there'd be a conflict between people wanting to watch TV and others wanting to play the Xbox. There are already enough fights over which shows to watch. I've got four kids so there's a bit of a tug-of-war over the TV.

I'm sure hardcore videogame fans shell out to get a top of the line TV too, but I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of consoles are hooked up to smaller TVs too as parents relegate the console to a secondary TV.

Brad Grenz
11-21-2002, 09:58 PM
We live in a world where a lot of RF adapters are still sold. I'd say the vast majority of console gamers are playing on an aging 27 in TV, or worse. For a lot of people it's going to be hard to notice the benefits of the Xbox without a big screen HDTV and a dolby digital surround set up. The most noticable problems the PS2 had, half rez games and aliasing, are all but non-issues for most games coming out these days. We've reached a point where your art direction and programming talent have more impact on the graphics of a game than the hardware you're running on. Splinter Cell has some amazing lighting and graphical effects, but I still think MGS2's character models looked smoother and more natural. So much is in what you do with what you have.

wumpus
11-21-2002, 10:00 PM
"But games programmed specifically for the Xbox and GC look amazingly better...."

Could you qualify that in terms of a PC experience? I'd say Quake III looks amazingly better than Quake and noticably better than Quake II, for example.
Personally, I'd say a properly programmed Xbox game vs. a PS2 game is akin to.. Quake 3 versus Unreal Tournament 2003. The difference is there, and it's visible enough to people who play games as a hobby.. but I'm not sure casual gamers or parents would immediately notice it.

Splinter Cell is a good example, actually. The more I play this game, the more I think its lighting effects are legitimately better than the Doom 3 alpha that everyone was so ga-ga over. Of course, it's coming out on the PC, too, so.. :)

Chris Nahr
11-22-2002, 02:06 AM
The most noticable problems the PS2 had, half rez games and aliasing, are all but non-issues for most games coming out these days. We've reached a point where your art direction and programming talent have more impact on the graphics of a game than the hardware you're running on.

Indeed. I don't understand why people keep obsessing about graphics technology. Personally, I can't spot any difference between my PS2 and Gamecube games, and I even find it hard to spot any visual difference between my PS2 and PC games that I actually care about. Sure, Morrowind has more detailed trees... so what? Onimusha 2 still looks great to me.

The one thing that the PC or future HDTV consoles have going for them is a higher screen resolution, but I only need that for strategy games which are unplayable on consoles anyway due to controller issues. For the typical consolish action/adventure game I don't care if the resolution is 640x480 or 2400x1800 as long as the art direction is good. 640x480 is good enough to see all the relevant detail. Same for polygon count, I'm happy as long as it doesn't look outright blocky.

The only technical drawback of contemporary consoles that I find really annoying is the frequent pausing for disk access. More memory would be nice.. a lot more memory.

Jakub
11-22-2002, 02:34 AM
The most noticable problems the PS2 had, half rez games and aliasing, are all but non-issues for most games coming out these days. We've reached a point where your art direction and programming talent have more impact on the graphics of a game than the hardware you're running on.

Indeed. I don't understand why people keep obsessing about graphics technology. Personally, I can't spot any difference between my PS2 and Gamecube games, and I even find it hard to spot any visual difference between my PS2 and PC games that I actually care about. Sure, Morrowind has more detailed trees... so what? Onimusha 2 still looks great to me.

The one thing that the PC or future HDTV consoles have going for them is a higher screen resolution, but I only need that for strategy games which are unplayable on consoles anyway due to controller issues. For the typical consolish action/adventure game I don't care if the resolution is 640x480 or 2400x1800 as long as the art direction is good. 640x480 is good enough to see all the relevant detail. Same for polygon count, I'm happy as long as it doesn't look outright blocky.

The only technical drawback of contemporary consoles that I find really annoying is the frequent pausing for disk access. More memory would be nice.. a lot more memory.

What are you two on?

The PS2 is an extremely limited, powerful architecture. The things that the developers decide to do, it does magnificently - but it can do only so many things. GTA3: Vice City is downright painful. Gran Turismo 3 looks mostly amazing, as you can tell where shortcuts were taken. It's also got an extremely narrow scope, which clearly helps it out.

I wonder every so often just how much more dominant the PS2 would be with more RAM. That small amount of RAM is also what makes it a moot point whether or not HDTV support was included with the PS2 - it couldn't support the resolutions at the same time as it displayed all the fancy effects.

GregB
11-22-2002, 08:11 AM
Splinter Cell is a good example, actually. The more I play this game, the more I think its lighting effects are legitimately better than the Doom 3 alpha that everyone was so ga-ga over.

While I agree that the lighting effects are nice, can someone please tell me what resolution this game is running in? I don't think I 've seen to many jagged edges on an Xbox game.

Mark Asher
11-22-2002, 09:37 AM
"I wonder every so often just how much more dominant the PS2 would be with more RAM. That small amount of RAM is also what makes it a moot point whether or not HDTV support was included with the PS2 - it couldn't support the resolutions at the same time as it displayed all the fancy effects."

Eh, it would be hard to be more dominant than it is now.

I agree with Chris Nahr -- the art direction is much more important than the visual quality at this point. You can go back to the Dreamcast and the consoles have reached a level of visual quality starting then that's satisfying to most people. Heck, the PSOne looks pretty good with a lot of games. I still think the N64 looks ok.

What Microsoft needs to do, and may have started to do with Xbox Live, is come up with arguments for why Xbox gaming is better and unique instead of relying on superior visuals to sell the system. Convince me that Xbox Live is great. Start showing me that every Xbox game released will have some kind of bonus download. Let me see expansions that take advantage of the hard drive -- where's my $20 Halo expansion, for example? Start doing a lot of that kind of thing and I'll be saying, "Wow, the Xbox really does a lot of stuff the other systems can't."

BTW, has anyone heard of any Xbox Live subscriber numbers? It really seemed to launch quietly. When you log on to Xbox Live, does it list the total number of players online?

sellthekids
11-22-2002, 09:58 AM
BTW, has anyone heard of any Xbox Live subscriber numbers? It really seemed to launch quietly. When you log on to Xbox Live, does it list the total number of players online?

you do not get a total count of players online, at least not in the game lobby for any of the online games i have tried (MechAssault, Fever 2003, and NFL 2K3.)

i would like to know these numbers too. for a company that screamed it was going to launch with a $500mil advertising blitz, it seems XBL has come in like lamb, not a lion.

any of you industry types got any insider #s? shares-ies?

Anonymous
11-22-2002, 10:01 AM
BTW, has anyone heard of any Xbox Live subscriber numbers? It really seemed to launch quietly. When you log on to Xbox Live, does it list the total number of players online?

you do not get a total count of players online, at least not in the game lobby for any of the online games i have tried (MechAssault, Fever 2003, and NFL 2K3.)

i would like to know these numbers too. for a company that screamed it was going to launch with a $500mil advertising blitz, it seems XBL has come in like lamb, not a lion.

any of you industry types got any insider #s? shares-ies?

The number of Xbox users online has to be in the millions yo! I see so many people gaming online that it makes my head spin yo. Seriously though.

I might get another Xbox for my father yo, so we can game all day.

Dave Long
11-22-2002, 10:18 AM
There's a press release today from Microsoft that says they sold 150,000 Xbox Live starter kits so far. Sony has sold 200,000 broadband adapters by comparison. Nintendo sold out of however many BBAs they produced which probably wasn't too many. Maybe one for every copy of PSO that was put on store shelves.

--Dave

sellthekids
11-22-2002, 10:30 AM
There's a press release today from Microsoft that says they sold 150,000 Xbox Live starter kits so far.

yeah i thought i saw that number from an Xbox employee on their forums...but i kinda take anything number-wise from MS with a shaker of salt. :o

Mark Asher
11-22-2002, 10:45 AM
There's a press release today from Microsoft that says they sold 150,000 Xbox Live starter kits so far.

yeah i thought i saw that number from an Xbox employee on their forums...but i kinda take anything number-wise from MS with a shaker of salt. :o

As always with game publishers, does this represent sell-in or sell-through?

One thing Microsoft can say with certainty is how many have logged on and signed up accounts with Xbox Live. Did the press release disclose these figures?

My guess is that the 150,000 figure represents units shipped to stores.

Edit: Looks like Live is quite a success so far. From the press release:

"Xbox Live is the first high-speed online console gaming service to reach these important milestones in the first week of service, including the first subscription-based broadband service to surpass 100,000 subscribers."

That's pretty good. One of the things I didn't understand was that the press release touted the ability of friends to play as guests or something:

"Because each Xbox Live account allows guest players, more than 200,000 players have already found their friends, talked trash, and started building their legends in the last week."

What is that exactly? I thought it was previously stated that it was one account per Xbox and you could only have one user name?

All in all, Xbox Live looks to be a big success so far.

Kool Moe Dee
11-22-2002, 10:57 AM
What is that exactly? I thought it was previously stated that it was one account per Xbox and you could only have one user name?


Other players can play on your console under your account, but they're labelled as "XyzGuest" (where Xyz is your name). The upshot of this is that you can invite a friend over and both play online at the same time, even if they don't have a Live account. Pretty clever.

Mark Asher
11-22-2002, 11:00 AM
What is that exactly? I thought it was previously stated that it was one account per Xbox and you could only have one user name?


Other players can play on your console under your account, but they're labelled as "XyzGuest" (where Xyz is your name). The upshot of this is that you can invite a friend over and both play online at the same time, even if they don't have a Live account. Pretty clever.

How do you both play online? In split-screen?

Anonymous
11-22-2002, 11:00 AM
Right but your guest can't do any voice comm. They can play online with you though-- split screen stylee.

Erik
11-22-2002, 11:03 AM
I'm not denying that the X-Box is ultimately more powerful, but Ratchet & Clank compares favorably or looks better than at least Splinter Cell, Death Row, and Enclave. Though Splinter Cell does have remarkable lighting effects. Side to side with R&C, there's no XBox game I've seen that would make you think the XBox is clearly superior. In specific cases at least, there's still some fight left in the ps2.

sellthekids
11-22-2002, 12:27 PM
Right but your guest can't do any voice comm. They can play online with you though-- split screen stylee.

well, split screen if that is what the game calls for...MechAssault uses vertical screen split (thank god!) Fever 2003 and NFL 2K3 need no screen split b/c you are teammates.

Mark Asher
11-22-2002, 12:39 PM
"MechAssault uses vertical screen split"

Is that an option? Our game does horizontal split screen.

Desslock
11-22-2002, 12:56 PM
What about the obvious pro/con -- that the Xbox is a much more capable system, in terms of quality of graphics, while the PS2's graphical capabilities are badly outdated?

Did you have a bad day in court or something? Because in some areas, them's fightin' words.

Heh, no mas. I'll get out of the console thread immediately. I can understand why folks would like the PS2 more, because of the massive variety of games and key exclusives, but both the GameCube and Xbox have much more capable graphic processors (and CPU speed, in the case of the Xbox).

Do any consoles support higher resolution graphics if you run them on a monitor instead of a TV? The only console game I've played much of was XBox Morrowind, and I found the low res graphics really annoying.

Jakub
11-22-2002, 03:13 PM
Do any consoles support higher resolution graphics if you run them on a monitor instead of a TV? The only console game I've played much of was XBox Morrowind, and I found the low res graphics really annoying.

I don't think they play on monitors, but I know that Xbox supports HDTV (support varies in quality depending on the title.)

Dave Long
11-22-2002, 03:24 PM
Do any consoles support higher resolution graphics if you run them on a monitor instead of a TV? The only console game I've played much of was XBox Morrowind, and I found the low res graphics really annoying.

No monitor support without some fancy, expensive hardware and it's not like Dreamcast where you could just plug into a monitor and immediately get 640x480 resolution.

Single. Stupidest. Thing. About. Xbox.

--Dave

sellthekids
11-22-2002, 04:34 PM
"MechAssault uses vertical screen split"

Is that an option? Our game does horizontal split screen.

wha?

just to make sure this wasn't an 'online only' option, i just cranked up a local game of grinder with two players: the screen split vertically down the middle...it does the same when you play online.

yours is splitting horizontally? MechAssault? how are you hooked up to the TV?

i have adjusted no game options that i know of. :?

sellthekids
11-22-2002, 04:35 PM
No monitor support without some fancy, expensive hardware and it's not like Dreamcast where you could just plug into a monitor and immediately get 640x480 resolution.

Single. Stupidest. Thing. About. Xbox.

--Dave

so i am confused: does the PS2 do this? or the GC?

wumpus
11-22-2002, 06:40 PM
I'm not denying that the X-Box is ultimately more powerful, but Ratchet & Clank compares favorably or looks better than at least Splinter Cell, Death Row, and Enclave. Though Splinter Cell does have remarkable lighting effects. Side to side with R&C, there's no XBox game I've seen that would make you think the XBox is clearly superior. In specific cases at least, there's still some fight left in the ps2.
Well, I'll agree that R&C looks pretty good, at least, except for the Ultra Blurry PS2 Textures (tm).

http://www.neoseeker.com/Games/Products/PS2/ratchet_clank/ratchet_clank_screens.html

Dave Long
11-22-2002, 06:45 PM
so i am confused: does the PS2 do this? or the GC?

No, and it's stupid on those systems too, but it's even dumber when the console is essentially a PC.

--Dave

Brad Grenz
11-22-2002, 10:00 PM
Yeah, like it's so hard to get a VGA signal from a nVidia GPU. There are a couple guys who custom make homebrew VGA boxes for the Xbox, you can find them through Xbox hacking sites. They run like $75 though. The latest generation of consumer VGA boxes for the Xbox and PS2 you can buy from Lik Sang use a component connection (rather than the older ones which converted an S-video signal), but I'm unsure if either will pass through a native 480p signal, or if they'll only linedouble an interlaced signal. I suspect that they do support the progressive signal, but I can't verify this. Nothing I know of will support converting an HD, 720p or 1080i, image for VGA.