Western exposure: High Noon

[Tom Chick]

I don't know a lot of Westerns. A few years back, in an email interview Warren Spector mentioned that he'd studied film and he thought The Searchers was one of the best American movies. I rented it and was floored. Amazing movie.

So now finally I get around to checking out another classic western. I had previously known High Noon only as the source material for Outland, in which Sean Connery is a marshal on some Mars mining colony going up against Peter Boyle as a drug lord.

But I was surprised at how little it was like how I imagine typical Westerns. Firstly, it's a morality play rather than an action movie. It's small and stark. But like The Searchers, it's about a moral struggle with the Old West as a backdrop (which I now realize wasn't completely unprecedented before Unforgiven). In fact, this is going to sound a bit pretentious, but High Noon is really an update of Shakespeare's Timon of Athens. It's about a good man failed by his friends who aren't evil so much as not as good as him.

I loved how the lead character in High Noon is haggard and afraid, even reluctant. He considers doing cowardly things. He has to struggle to be noble. The movie takes the time to create a latticework of relationships to explain why no one will help this doomed marshal whose killer is arriving on the noon train. It creates a great sense of place, not geographically, but through characters.

When the movie first started, I wouldn't have know Gary Cooper from Adam. I just knew he was some famous movie star. So when High Noon comes to a scene in which Grace Kelly (who's really hot, which I feel weird saying, since she's probably dead by now) is marrying this older fellow, I think, "Okay, so the old guy's going to get killed and then the young and dashing Gary Cooper will ride into town and she'll fall in love with him". But as the movie progressed, I realized that old guy *was* Gary Cooper. He was so good and unaffected. I didn't know they even had performances like that before the 70s!

I could have done without the dopey Tex Ritter song following Cooper around town and the climax was kind of sloppy, but I guess that's how they did movies back then. There were some great shots: the crane shot as Cooper walks through the empty streets, the horses running through town as smoke rises from the burning barn in the background, the progressively looming clocks, the sequence of reactions -- ending on an empty chair -- when everyone in town hears the train's whistle.

Finally, I really have to roll my eyes when someone gets shot, clutches his chest, and slumps to the ground peacefully. I was looking at the guns they were using and thinking back to what I've read about Civil War injuries. Those guns must have torn people up and considering the state of medicine back then, it couldn't have been pretty. It must have taken several shots to actually kill a guy and even then, wouldn't he probably take a while to bleed to death? I imagine there were a lot of legless and armless gunfighters running around. And I can't imagine those things were very accurate.

So there's that. My exposure to Westerns is a little richer now. Maybe I should watch some popcorn stuff like Stagecoach now.

-Tom

[DennyA]

Grace Kelly (who's really hot, which I feel weird saying, since she's probably dead by now)

Er, she became Princess Grace of Monaco, and then her life ended in a rather nasty incident with an automobile and a cliff.

She's also in three of Hitchcock's better films. One of which has a car chase scene that definitely sets off the irony detectors.

[Jason McCullough]

You hadn't seen High Noon? Man.

Other Westerns to try:

The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (Jimmy Stewart warning, but good)
Stagecoach, (kind of goofy, still great)
Unforgiven (I haven't seen it)
Little Man (humor, kind of depressing)
The Oxbow Incident (great stuff)

[TimElhajj]

I'll admit that the only western's I've ever watched the whole way through had Clint Eastwood as the unknown stranger.

[Mark Asher]

Once Upon a Time in the West. They gave Leone a budget and he made an art film.

[Ron Dulin]

I just recommended Once Upon a Time via email myself. It's strange that Dario Argento was involved in the screenplay/story aspect. The first scene with Henry Fonda is so great.

I just recently watched Fistful of Dynamite (alternate title: Duck You Sucker), and it was surprisingly good. James Coburn *and* Rod Steiger for crying out loud! That deserves one of these things: :shock:

What are they called? Whammys?

Ron

[Mark Asher]

"The first scene with Henry Fonda is so great."

Yeah. Great casting. It would have been a good scene, but much more ordinary with someone else.

Is it out on DVD? I haven't seen it in years.

Speaking of Steiger, No Way to Treat a Lady is a guilty pleasure of mine. -- a serial murder film that's both funny and full of suspense.

[MRUS]

You hadn't seen High Noon? Man.

Other Westerns to try:

Little Man (humor, kind of depressing)



Not familiar with this one unless you mean Little Big Man with Dustin Hoffman. It does have some twisted humor to it. I liked it.

http://us.imdb.com/Title?0065988

[Jason McCullough]

Whoops, you're right.

[Jason Levine]

The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (Jimmy Stewart warning, but good)

Huh? (To the Jimmy Stewart warning part, not the "good" part)

[DavidCPA]

The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance

John Wayne
Jimmy Stewart
Lee Marvin

Doesn't get more classic Western than that.

I don't understand the Jimmy Stewart comment either.

-DavidCPA

[JeffL]

Another vote for Once Upon a Time in the West.

Also,

the Oxbow Incident

The Man Who Shot Liberty Valence

One of the early Eastwood Spaghettis (e.g., A Fistful of Dollars, etc.), or the entire trilogy - some great lines in some of those. E.g., a bounty hunter walks in on Eastwood, points his gun at him. Eastwood: "You a bounty hunter?" Other guy: "Yep. A man's gotta make a livin' " Eastwood (with Eastwood squint): "Dyin' ain't much of a livin'" - then proceeds to blow him away. Oh yeah - you've gotta go back and play Outlaws after watching an Eastwood Spaghetti Western.

Shane

The Wild Bunch (Peckinpah)

Obviously you've already seen the American Western take-off on the Seven Samurai, "The Magnificent Seven", right?

There's a movie who's name I can't remember - The Gunfighters? - Burt Lancaster, aging gunfighter unsuccessfully trying to escape his past. Good flick.

Man, I'm envious, there's a whole genre of good movies out there for you to explore, many of which are so much more that what people consider as a standard "Western Cowboys and Indians" film.

[Mark Asher]

Hombre's good -- that's an Elmore Leonard western too.

[MRUS]

One of my favorite comedies/westerns is The Cheyenne Social Club. Also stars Henry Fonda.

One of the few movies directed by Gene Kelly. Yep, Gene Kelly of Singing in the Rain.


http://us.imdb.com/Title?0065542

[Jason Levine]

For those who think some kind of "Jimmy Stewart warning" is necessary, I'd recommend Winchester 73. That should disabuse you of that notion. (I'd also recommend Anatomy of a Murder, but, of course, that isn't a Western).

Another favorite Western: My Darling Clementine -- a much better movie about the gunfight at the OK Corral than the movie entitled "The Gunfight at the OK Corral."

[Jason McCullough]

Augh, I just put that in there because there's a bit much of the Jimmy Stewart everyman-who's-a-wimp simpering. He's good.

[Tom Chick]

Thanks for all the tips guys. I have doctored my Netflix queue accordingly by adding Man who Shot Liberty Valence, Stagecoach, and The Magnificent Seven (what a dopey title!).

Unfortunately, seems like Once Upon a Time in the West isn't on DVD and it sounds like the kind of movie I'd be loathe to see in a cropped format. Does anyone know if the VHS version is widescreen? I'm especially eager to see it knowing now that the script is by Dario Argenti and Bernardo Bertolucci.

What's with the Italians and Westerns? I saw a Werner Fassbinder Western called Whitey that was *awful*. So why do the Italians get it but the Germans don't? Maybe Christoph Nahr can weigh in. :)

-Tom

[JeffL]

Once Upon A Time In the West was filmed at 2.35:1, but it's watchable in the VHS version. Still, you're right - I just remembered that the last time I was it was on TCM, in widescreen, and it really should be seen that way. Great movie, full of great quotes, such as:

"You know Jill, you remind me of my mother. She was the biggest whore in Alameda but the finest woman in the world. Whoever was my father for an hour or for a night ... he must have been a happy man."

[Anders Hallin]

The greatest star of Western movies is of course Toshiro Mifune. According to me :)

[Chris]

The Searchers is great, though I confess my favorite John Wayne western is Rio Bravo. Most of his movies directed by John Ford are good as well, though you may find them to be cliched at times.

You might want to check out Cat Ballou with Jane Fonda and Lee Marvin, who is excellent in it. I believe he was nominated for an Oscar though some say his horse should have gotten the nod. Check it out and you'll see why.

[Jason Levine]

Lee Marvin won an Oscar for his duel role in Cat Ballou, but the movie hasn't aged all that well.

My favorite Ford/Wayne movie after The Searchers is She Wore a Yellow Ribbon, with Wayne as the aging calvary officer. I'd rank The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance slightly below those two by just a little bit. The ironic line at the very end is wonderful.

[Mark Asher]

Rio Bravo is a lot of fun. It's a parade of stars in sterotypical western roles. I don't think it's an imaginative movie. It's the beer and pretzel western.

Cat Ballou may not have aged well, but Lee Marvin's dual performance is still a hoot, and it has Jane Fonda as the female lead and Nat King Cole as one of two singing "Greek chorus" singers who address the camera periodically.

[Supertanker]

For those who think some kind of "Jimmy Stewart warning" is necessary, I'd recommend Winchester 73. That should disabuse you of that notion.

I'm glad someone else mentioned this. It is hard to explain this, but Jimmy Stewart is a badass in it. I'd also recommend The Searchers.

The final western you watch should be The Wild Bunch. Screw Unforgiven; The Wild Bunch tells the better tale of aging gunslingers.

[Chris Nahr]

What's with the Italians and Westerns? I saw a Werner Fassbinder Western called Whitey that was *awful*. So why do the Italians get it but the Germans don't? Maybe Christoph Nahr can weigh in. :)

I didn't even know that Fassbinder made a Western. Then again I tend to avoid German movies in general, and the horrible German "art" movies in particular. On the other hand, I devoured the works of Karl May when I was a kid.

On the Western topic, anything by Sergio Leone is great (although Fistful of Dollars was a bit too blatantly ripped off from Yojimbo). But I have to say that American Western movies generally left me unimpressed. They always seem like a bad mix of boring realism and boring clichés, completely unlike American movies in general. Leone threw realism out of the window and made the clichés funny. that's why I like his stuff. In a way Leone was the only one who really "got" the Western.

[wildpokerman]

I was watching Unforgiven for the first time tonight and I wondered why the modern western has become so nihilistic.

I mean the characters in all westerns totally lack depth so is the only place they had to go is to become cold rough killers with no sense of what the next moment may bring ALA Larry McMurtry?

The only "western" movie with any attempt at character building lately was Brokeback Mountain and I wouldn't put it in the western genre at all.

[Bill Hiles]

I'd recommend Howard Hawk's Red River. It's sort of a western version of Mutiny on the Bounty. Duke Wayne plays against type and it's one of his best performances. It was also one of Montgomery Clift's first films.

Not a western per say--in the traditional sense--but one of my all-time favorites is Jeremiah Johnson (Robert Redford). Directed by Sydney Pollack.

Interesting notes about High Noon: It was intended as an allegory of the contemporary failure of intellectuals to combat the rise of McCarthyism, as well as how people in Hollywood had remained silent while their peers were blacklisted. Writer and producer Carl Foreman went uncredited because of being blacklisted.

John Wayne despised High Noon. He said that no western lawman would have been treated that way. He said the film was un-American. Wayne's film Rio Bravo was made as a right-wing response to High Noon.

Bill

[Lunch of Kong]

seems like Once Upon a Time in the West isn't on DVD

It is. I have it in 2.35:1 right here, 165mins, commentary tracks with John Carpenter, John Milius, and Alex Cox.

If you can't find it from netflix, send me a PM and I'll drop it in the post.

[triggercut]

It is. I have it in 2.35:1 right here, 165mins, commentary tracks with John Carpenter, John Milius, and Alex Cox.

If you can't find it from netflix, send me a PM and I'll drop it in the post.

At the time Tom wrote that, his statement was true. Check the timestamp on his post...;)

[John Merva]

It is. I have it in 2.35:1 right here, 165mins, commentary tracks with John Carpenter, John Milius, and Alex Cox.

If you can't find it from netflix, send me a PM and I'll drop it in the post.

The special edition of all those Sergio Leone westerns are well worth picking up. I have The Good, the Bad and the Ugly, For a Few Dollars More and Once Upon a Time in the West.

Also Roger, I think Tom couldn't find it because he was looking in 2002!

[Ben]

I was watching Unforgiven for the first time tonight and I wondered why the modern western has become so nihilistic.

Uh, what other modern Westerns are you refering to? Open Range? Silverado? Tombstone? Dances With Wolves? The Quick and the Dead? Young Guns? Bad Girls? That Colin Farrell piece of shit, whatever it was called? Various TNT originals?

You've got a one movie trend, and your comment about characters in Westerns lacking depth is nonsensical. Poorly written characters lack depth.

Anyway, since someone unearthed this thread, I might as well mine it's zombie brain. From the original post,


Finally, I really have to roll my eyes when someone gets shot, clutches his chest, and slumps to the ground peacefully.

This has always bothered me about most pre-~1970 movies. What was it that happened in the late 60s or early 70s that caused filmmakers to try to start being realistic with their death throes? I can't remember the newest movie that had the "Guy gets shot in the torso, bloodlessly(or sometimes with three drops of bright red paint) falls down and lays absolutely still" method of depicting gunshots, and I'm also having trouble with figuring out the oldest movie with the modern "squib+decent fake blood+squirming" method. I'm going to start a new thread if nobody helps here because now this is bothering me.

[Tom Chick]

Ben, my guess -- and I'm just pulling this out of my hat and would love to be corrected -- is that verite gunshot wounds were a Sam Peckinpah innovation.

-Tom

P.S. This was a fun thread! I have since seen Once Upon a Time in the West and it pains me to admit that I'm not a huge fan of the Italian Westerns, even though I recognize why folks dig them. But I'll take High Noon and The Searchers, thankyouverymuch.

[Ben]

In my original post I was actually going to mention The Getaway as having the first modern gunfight I can remember but didn't want to steer potential answers.

On further brain searching Bonnie and Clyde IIRC used the verite style. Haven't seen it for a while so might be wrong on that count. I'm having trouble remembering any other mid-to-late 1960s films of note that involved gunplay.

[Enduro_Man]

I could have done without the dopey Tex Ritter song following Cooper around town ...

My first exposure to was the Commodore 64 game called, well, "High Noon". The game had absolutely nothing to do with its namesake, but the tune was stuck in my head years before I actually saw the film. It's still my favorite western. The worsening look on Gary Cooper's face makes the entire film: First, as he realizes that he's alone, and then when he understands that nobody gives a shit.

Considering how much I loved this and The Day of the Jackal, maybe I ought to watch a few more of Fred Zinnemann's movies.

[Marsh Davies]

I was watching Unforgiven for the first time tonight and I wondered why the modern western has become so nihilistic.

I mean the characters in all westerns totally lack depth so is the only place they had to go is to become cold rough killers with no sense of what the next moment may bring ALA Larry McMurtry?

The only "western" movie with any attempt at character building lately was Brokeback Mountain and I wouldn't put it in the western genre at all.

I don't think it's true that Westerns lack fully-fleshed characters. I can think of three off hand with fantastic characters, two of which came out this last year: The Proposition, The Three Buriels of Melquiades Estrada and Way of the Gun.

There is possibly a trend towards nihilism, but only in as much as the modern western is rather more uncompromising in its view of the West, be that the geographical space, the time period, or just the psychology adopted by the movie. Certainly, there tends not to be a clear cut line between the good and the bad, but I don't think that merits an accusation of nihilism. Brutal times rarely create noble men of impeccable moral standing and reflecting that is merely to debunk the traditional Western's simplistic polarisation of hero/law versus villain/lawlessness.

[Uncle Larry]

P.S. This was a fun thread! I have since seen Once Upon a Time in the West and it pains me to admit that I'm not a huge fan of the Italian Westerns, even though I recognize why folks dig them. But I'll take High Noon and The Searchers, thankyouverymuch.

I can't not get involved in a discussion about OUATITW, because it rocks so hard. I haven't even seen The Searchers or High Noon, but I'm willing to bet neither feature Henry fucking Fonda gunning down 8-year-olds or Jason Robards shooting some punk's eye out with a gun stuffed in his boot, and that's just some of the cool non-Chuck Bronson scenes, and then BONUS you get Chuck Bronson, kicking all this ass. Also it has all the moral ambiguity set against the backdrop of the untamed Western landscape blah blah blah art shit that makes people that notice it feel ALL FUCKING SUPERIOR to the working man who just likes gunporn, so there's that.

The only way this movie could have been better is if they'd done as planned and got Eastwood, Wallach and Van Cleef to play the 3 mooks in the intro, but the film's good enough that it didn't need it.

[extarbags]

What was it that happened in the late 60s or early 70s that caused filmmakers to try to start being realistic with their death throes?

'Nam.

[Funkman]

True, OUATITW is awesome. But you should probably watch The Searchers and High Noon for some quinessential classic Western goodness.

Here's a question: Does Paris,Texas count as a Western as a loose, loose, retelling of a Searchers like story?

[extarbags]

Also, where the hell is The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly in this thread?

[Supertanker]

Open Range is the movie for you, if you want to avoid gunslingers turning nihilistic and have good wounding/death throes from low-velocity large-caliber slugs.

[ElGuapo]

Vietnam changed film, TV, politics, government . . . almost everyhting about America and its culture. For the first time we recognized nationally we weren't invincible or perfect and a lot of angry cynicism came from it.

[Uncle Larry]

Vietnam changed film, TV, politics, government . . . almost everyhting about America and its culture. For the first time we recognized nationally we weren't invincible or perfect and a lot of angry cynicism came from it.

More specifically: bright orange gunshot wounds weren't so provocative compared to the images of war on TV.

[Drastic]

One of the early Eastwood Spaghettis (e.g., A Fistful of Dollars, etc.), or the entire trilogy - some great lines in some of those. E.g., a bounty hunter walks in on Eastwood, points his gun at him. Eastwood: "You a bounty hunter?" Other guy: "Yep. A man's gotta make a livin' " Eastwood (with Eastwood squint): "Dyin' ain't much of a livin'" - then proceeds to blow him away.
That would be "The Outlaw Josey Wales", which is just silly-packed with good lines from everyone.

"When I get to likin' someone, they ain't around long."
"I notice when you get to dislikin' someone, they ain't around long, either."

"We thought about it for a long time, 'Endeavor to persevere.' And when we had thought about it long enough, we declared war on the Union...I didn't surrender, but they took my horse and made him surrender."

[Grifman]

One of the early Eastwood Spaghettis (e.g., A Fistful of Dollars, etc.), or the entire trilogy - some great lines in some of those. E.g., a bounty hunter walks in on Eastwood, points his gun at him. Eastwood: "You a bounty hunter?" Other guy: "Yep. A man's gotta make a livin' " Eastwood (with Eastwood squint): "Dyin' ain't much of a livin'" - then proceeds to blow him away.

Nope, that was from IMO Clint's best western, "The Outlaw Josey Wales".

[Jason McCullough]

I didn't know that. It makes his "dyin' ain't much of a livin', boy" line from Unforgiven much more amusing.

[Ben]

It makes his "dyin' ain't much of a livin', boy" line from Unforgiven much more amusing.

I've always thought people underrate Unforgiven's whimsy.

[John Merva]

Also, where the hell is The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly in this thread?

Well, I mentioned the DVD.


Another great part in Unforgiven is where Clint is asked how he chose the order in which he shot the men. He replies something like 'just got lucky, I guess.' That refers to Josey Wales where he gives a long spiel about holsters and other reasons why he chose the order in which he killed them.

[Supertanker]

That refers to Josey Wales where he gives a long spiel about holsters and other reasons why he chose the order in which he killed them.

"Well, that one in the center: he had a flap holster and he was in no itchin' hurry. And the one second from the left: he had scared eyes, he wasn't gonna do nothin'. But that one on the far left: he had crazy eyes. Figured him to make the first move."

Which always makes me think of Oddball securing his holster flap out of the way in the High Noon sequence of Kelly's Heroes.

[Gary Whitta]

The other cool thing about High Noon is that it's all in real time. Shove it, 24!

[John Merva]

"Well, that one in the center: he had a flap holster and he was in no itchin' hurry. And the one second from the left: he had scared eyes, he wasn't gonna do nothin'. But that one on the far left: he had crazy eyes. Figured him to make the first move."

Which always makes me think of Oddball securing his holster flap out of the way in the High Noon sequence of Kelly's Heroes.

It also makes me think of the final gunfight in 'The Good, the bad...'. I love the way that Lee Van Cleef hesitates a couple of times before he goes for his gun. He knows he is good but he is well aware of the possible consequences of a shootout and he is nervous.

Leone was brilliant in the way he could show the mental state of men before violence with just a few simple shots.

(Happy now extarbags?)

[Kevin Grey]

In my original post I was actually going to mention The Getaway as having the first modern gunfight I can remember but didn't want to steer potential answers.

On further brain searching Bonnie and Clyde IIRC used the verite style. Haven't seen it for a while so might be wrong on that count. I'm having trouble remembering any other mid-to-late 1960s films of note that involved gunplay.


Yeah, I think Bonnie and Clyde is generally credited for ushering in that sort of gunshot gore into the mainstream, though I'm sure there are others that predate it.

Peckinpah was definitely a huge influence in this area too but with The Wild Bunch (1969 a year after Bonnie and Clyde). The Getaway came out three years later.

[unbongwah]

The other cool thing about High Noon is that it's all in real time. Shove it, 24!
Once upon a time, real-time was the norm for theater; the idea of dramatic compression was quite the novel invention.

[VegasRobb]

I really like "The Angel and the Badman" and the other Rio Bravo movie that wasn't named Rio Bravo, but follows the same basic plot and stars The Duke, James Caan, Ed Asner, and Robert Mitchum.

[Mordrak]

If you can tolerate it, The Great Silence (or Big Silence) has a nice score, the occasional good shot, and a worthwhile ending. Though there are many versions out there. If you get the one with the ending used in North Africa (I believe, may have been a different territory).... it's horrible.

Mordrak

[Damien Falgoust]

P.S. This was a fun thread! I have since seen Once Upon a Time in the West and it pains me to admit that I'm not a huge fan of the Italian Westerns, even though I recognize why folks dig them. But I'll take High Noon and The Searchers, thankyouverymuch.
Did you ever get around to The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance? Because if not, I would like to second, third, fourth or whatever that one. It's a fantastic movie.

[Bill Hiles]

A couple of other westerns I'd forgotten about that's worth a look:

Nevada Smith (Steve McQueen) and Will Penny (Charlton Heston). Both, IMHO, are overlooked gems of the genre.


Bill