8Mile

[Turner Hopkinson]

Anyone else like it?
Pretty interesting actually, Eminem surprised me as an actor ... not half bad.

Guess things are a little bit easier when you're playing yourself eh?

[Anonymous]

Yes, a stirring reminder that when you're from the 'hood, you've only got your own talents to uplift yourself out the ghetto, so you better come correct like Eminem does. Or, I mean Rabbit.

[Turner Hopkinson]

Or a sports wonder :shock:

[Alan Dunkin]

A self-congratulatory Eminem movie, that's all the world needs.

--- Alan

[Ron Dulin]

Did any of you even see the film? At what point is it self-congratulatory or does anyone lift themselves out of the ghetto?

I was really surprised by it. Sure, it could have been better. But it was also much, much better than it needed to be. Eminem was fine in it, and the last battle sequence was pretty exciting. If they had cut out every scene with Kim Basinger (who was so bad that it was difficult to watch), it might have even qualified as great.

I can understand not liking it, but dismissing it outright for the above reasons is just silly. It's a pretty bleak movie which [spoiler] ends with the protagonist going back to finish his shift at a factory, losing the girl, and only vaguely insinuating that there may be a better life ahead of him.

[Alan Dunkin]

Ron, why would I go spend money and pad the coffers of folks I dispise for a movie I know I won't like? I'd rather not waste my time, money, and energy. It may be a good movie, but Eminem is the lead actor -- no thanks. I'd rather have my cheeks pierced.

--- Alan

[Ron Dulin]

I didn't ask you to go see it, nor whether you would see it. I asked if you had seen it, because you dismissed it for a fairly specific reason (calling it "self-congratulatory"). But I've obviously whacked some hornet's nest in the Alan Dunkin vs. Eminem beef that I was heretofore unaware of, and I apologize. My only advice: don't sign with Suge, dawg.

[Wholly Schmidt]

Eminem was fine in it, and the last battle sequence was pretty exciting. Battle?

[Stroker Ace]

battle
(v) To compete, usually freestyle rapping, sometimes breakdancing or graffiti. "You want to rap and you got no battle, it's like havin' a boat and you got no paddle" -- Public Enemy (??? [1987]).

http://rapdict.org/terms/b


in this situation, it's a one on one freestyle rap war, mostly they just make fun of each other and insult each other's freestyling talents. oh, and the crowd goes wild.

[Anonymous]

I'm seriously baffled about something - we were chatting about this flik around the coffee pot at work this morning, and the one of us who was standing there who is gay was really pissed at how popular Mr. Mathers is. His comment was that the gay community leaders are a bunch of hypocrytes for not staging protests of Eminem at his preview, at the Grammys, etc. I'm not into rap much, so all I was really aware of was the lyrics about killing his pregnant wife and stuffing her in the trunk, etc. but he showed me on the net some of the gay-bashing lyrics, and wow. This guy is a serious homophobe. This ain't satire, this guy really puts gays down big-time. So - where are all of the protestors who are so quick to say that, say, Dr. Laura should not be allowed to air her views, or when any TV show or movie or anything at all hints at gay-bashing or the perception of gay-bashing?

[Menzo]

Here's one thing I'm baffled about - Brad Pitt could play a gay basher in a movie and you wouldn't think that HE, himself, hated gay people, but a musician who writes a song about it suddenly becomes the root of all things evil.

You ever think that maybe Eminem's song is his act? That perhaps he is creating a caricature of what people think he is? I'm not going to defend him, maybe he is a homophobe, but people seem to be unable to see musicians as "actors."

[Turner Hopkinson]

Eminem leads box office by a 'Mile'
The enfant terrible of the hip-hop community grabbed the No. 1 spot at the North American box office Sunday as his feature film debut "8 Mile" sold $54.5 million worth of tickets in its first three days.

Can't argue with success.

[TimElhajj]

people seem to be unable to see musicians as "actors."

Interesting. Honestely, the idea never occured to me. I usually see music as some sort of an expression/extension of the muscian's personal feelings. This doesn't mean that songs lyrics should all be taken literally, though. I suppose it has a lot to do with the mood of the song and what I know of the artists background. For example, I don't automatically think Randy Newman hates short people or that Warran Zevon wants to eat people.

[JeffL]

Hey Adam - I do think that it is interesting that the activist gay groups are so reluctant to express any concern at all at Eminem's lyrics. Heck, I remember when they protested Billy Crystal's gay character on Soap because they felt he was going to make fun of gays (well, I'd forgotten until I saw a piece on it on Trio the other night.) Eminem is from Michigan (where I live) so I see a lot written about the guy, and I've never seen him state "Oh, that's just an act to raise the level of sensitivity of the plight of the gay individual in America. Yo." nor have I even seen anyone take him to task or challenge him on it. Which does seem at least a little hypocritical to me. Nah, seems real hypocritial to me.

[Bub, Andrew]

Gay organizations organized massive protests over The Marshall Mather's LP and the first CD too. Newsweek, MTV, etc., bantered the subject endlessly. I don't think he was given a pass on those lyrics, at all, back then. Jeff, where the hell were you between 1999 and 2001 anyway? The debate over Eminem was endless.

But I think you're right to point out that it's over.

The reason why they've stopped isn't because they suddenly think those lyrics are acceptable and that Eminem is fine and dandy, I think they stopped because they noticed the attention was helping Eminem sell albums. That and the fact that the new album is noticably less offensive in that department. See, Dr. Laura's success can be stopped by a protest, Eminem's success can only be enhanced by it. It isn't hypocrisy for a protest group to pick the fights they can win over the one's they can't.

Here's an interesting poser on the other side of the coin. The Christian Coalition protested, vehemently, Soap, Torch Song Trilogy, and Ellen's coming out show, yet they says nothing about the much more in-your-face and even, lewd, Will & Grace program airing Thursday nights as Must See TV. Why is that? Doesn't that seem hypocritical to you?

[Tyjenks]

Rappers have been bashing gays since the dawn of rap in the early 80's. It starts out as simple ignorance and fear. If you have never met someone who is gay or been around a homosexual, you believe they are all after your ass and react negatively because that is what you have been taught by your peers growing up.

Once you get to the level of popularity and wealth that Slim Shady has achieved it is all an over-the-top act. I don't think he hates gay folks any more than he is going to kill his wife or mother. If anything, he is still ignorant and/or just engaging in the exaggeration and over-the-top lyrics that have always been the cornerstone of the genre.

I certainly do not agree with it and think it is in poor taste, but is no more harmful than when I got called a fag when I was a scrawny, little geek in high school. Protesting would be silly and a complete waste of time.

[Turner Hopkinson]

All of this, regardless of his personals beliefs or not, falls under the category of "no publicity is bad publicity".

The guy sings with Elton John one moment and the next moment he sings lyrics including "my faggot father musta had his panties in a bunch".

[Tyjenks]

The thing is, when he says 'faggot', he's not necassarily saying, "I believe my dad was gay and because of that I curse and hate him". It's like 'dumbass' or 'mother fucker' or 'bitch'. It's a deragatory word that I must admit I have used when getting in small scuffles when playing basketball. I remember getting an elbow in the mouth and calling the guy a stupid faggot or something to that effect. I did not think he was gay or meant it as an indictment of men who choose that lifestyle. I am not proud of it, but it is just a word.

He is a white guy who says 'nigger', as well. Should Sharpton, the NAACP, and brother Jesse be marching as well? Probably not as there is no money it for them, but he is offending the entire black race as he is pointing out their slave heritage and he is, after all, the white massa'.

[Turner Hopkinson]

Oh I totally agree Tykenks.
The word "faggot" by no means means gay in the traditional sense anymore.

[Thierry Nguyen]

Oh I totally agree Tykenks.
The word "faggot" by no means means gay in the traditional sense anymore.

"Faggot" means gay? I always thought it referred to a bunch of sticks.

High school memories make more sense now!

[Tyjenks]

Oh I totally agree Tykenks.
The word "faggot" by no means means gay in the traditional sense anymore.

Whew! Thank goodness we put that important issue to bed. :wink:

[JeffL]

Heh, Andrew, the Christian groups did a lot of protesting Will and Grace - organized advertiser boycotts, etc. I just protested W&G when it started getting lazy with its writing and stopped being as funny as it was. :wink:

Gay groups did some protesting of the first Eminem album, but I also remember in the 2000 - 2001 time frame them backing down big time. The only reason that I remember it well is that a buddy of mine from Texas (who happens to be gay - the friend, not Texas) being so dissapointed and him telling me that he thought the groups were sell-outs. He also said he thought it was funny/sad listening to the Hollywood/Music Stars trying to justify why it was "artistic" for Eminem to gay-bash (and it goes beyond saying faggot - some is pretty explicit bashing.)

Hey, it's no biggie to me one way or another. I don't understand why Mathers has been declared the next big thing in music, nor why people think the guy is so talented (and believe it or not, there's some Rap that I think is pretty clever and innovative), but I'm certainly not the target market for his stuff.

[Bub, Andrew]

Heh, Andrew, the Christian groups did a lot of protesting Will and Grace - organized advertiser boycotts, etc. I just protested W&G when it started getting lazy with its writing and stopped being as funny as it was. :wink:

Yeah, I only watched a few episodes too.


He also said he thought it was funny/sad listening to the Hollywood/Music Stars trying to justify why it was "artistic" for Eminem to gay-bash (and it goes beyond saying faggot - some is pretty explicit bashing.)

Yeah, I felt that way too. I've never liked that stuff in his music and I'll defend him only by saying I think it's motivated much more by ignorance (and, er, keeping it real - the words on the street) than an actual hate agenda. He's bewildered when people confront him on it because, hey, he actually ain't that worldly. I don't buy Adam's assertion that it's an act. I think it's an act that's used to explain the stuff he writes from deep inside. Eminem is pretty damn guileless, from what I've seen. The fact is Eminem is a fantastic rapper. His intonation, style, and ever writing are well above most of the rap scene. Up there with Dre, Snoop, and (imo) the best ever, Chuck D. Makes it harder to dismiss him outright, which is what would have happened if some chump had begun spouting offensive lyrics (unless he went to trial for it in Florida of course).

Critics can't ignore that, but I agree they began giving him a pass way too early and that Elton John thing was just weird and embarrassing (though that could be cited as a reason why the gay groups have backed off him - Eminem actually agreeing to do that, something the rap scene did not like, earned him some points on the tolerance meter I guess).

Funny, my wife loathes Eminem for the woman bashing as much as the gay bashing and at the end of the trailer for 8-mile I looked over at her, read her expression and said: "You're mad because that looks like a good movie, aren't you?" She sullenly said: "yes"

That's where Emimen puts you. Hate him for some of the lyrics but if you appreciate rap, well... man! That boy is good!

[Jim F.]

My reaction to Eminem went through a 3 part evolution.

Part 1) Didn't really pay attention to the lyrics. His rythm, style, beat, and scheme combined to make some very enjoyable music. I am by no means a rap fan, but his music grabbed me.

Part 2) After listening enough, I started paying more attention to the lyrics. Some pretty offensive stuff in there, espcially when quoted out of context. Started reading about how his mother was suing in for what he said about her, how he was leaving his wife and taking custody of his daughter. I started thinking he was a real ass and didn't deserve a lick of respect.

Part 3) Started reading about his past. How his mother really was, what his relationship with his wife was like, and how he grew up. Also started reading up on some of the less offensive lyrics that weren't hilited by some "rights" group and saw that, on the whole, it wasn't this offensive crap fest that it was being made out to be. Combine that with the fact that he makes it quite clear in several songs that he is like Rush Limbaugh (doesn't always believe what he says, but says what gets the most reaction), and suddenly I'm able to listen again without feeling like I'm supporting some hate monger.

So now I can just sit back and listen to his music. I can even sing along with it without feeling guilty. And when he defames his exwife or spouts off an ignorant homophobic lyric, it doesn't effect me. His music doesn't make me hate gays, just like Cop Killer didn't make me want to shoot an officer nor did Don't Stand So Close To Me make me want to promote pedophilia.

[Turner Hopkinson]

Since you brought up the issue of taking what's rapped about literally here's my take on that.

Music, just like videogames, is not the sole factor in making someone go shoot up a school or go on sniping sprees. That's the bottom line in my eyes.

Perhaps it was a small factor but something was without doubt wrong with the person before they played that videogame or listened to those hateful lyrics.

Eminem himself says it best -- "Believe me, there'll be just as many muthafuckin' murderers and heroin users without Marlilyn's music."

[Tyjenks]

Chuck D, who I agree is the best rapper of all time, after Arizona voted down MLK day in their state did a whole song and video about murdering the governor.

It is all to bring attention to issues people feel stongly about. Chuck himself says he exaggerates to elicit responses on both sides of a debate. Positive or negative it is getting the word out.

Eminem is good. I think the fact that he is good and white is contributing greatly to his success. Sure whites have always been large purchasers of rap, but there has not been a decent white rapper* for caucasians to get behind in years. Everlast is about the most skilled white rapper IMO, but he has diverged from traditional rapping and melds a lot more bluesy stuff that would never sell Eminem type numbers. Great production by the mucho talented Dr. Dre certainly does not hurt. I would argue that the guys from 3rd Bass were at least as good as Eminem. (MC Serch and Prime Minister Pete Nice)

I am a huge rap fan who does not like the turns the genre has taken since the 'Bling Bling' rappers have taken. Eminem seems like something I should be able to latch onto, but I have always been about the voices in rap music and Marshall's voice tends to grate on me at times (too high pitched or something). I listen to his stuff now and again and do enjoy much of it, but all of this attention he is getting is because he is moving a lot of units, he is white, and used that to angle for a movie role where he, basically, plays himself.

This generation's Elvis I have heard. Yikes! Of all the crazy media hype I have seen, that is the most egregious.


*The Beastie Boys do not count because they have surpassed greatness amny, many moons ago and are doing completely different things within the genre than Eminem is.

[Bub, Andrew]

Nice little overview of white rap there Ty.
3rd Bass, yes, definitely. I never liked Everlast, but admit he beats Vanilla Ice, House of Pain, and Snow (a licky boom boom down).

House of Pain do get some credit for Jump Around, specifically for this line: Tried to play me as if my name was Sega. But lose all that credit for having a single hit based on a jumping trend begun by Kriss Kross.

ANd yes, since Paul's Boutique, the Beasties have been on their own. When I play Godzilla DAMM, I think Intergalactic Planetary.

[dannimal]

I actually like Eminem when he's not trying to be an attention grabbing, controversial punk. For example, the "main" song from the movie (Lose Yourself?), I like. I like the emotion conveyed, I like the rhythm (though at times he intentionally jarrs things, and it bothers me).

But songs like "Without Me" and whatever the Real Slim Shady one is called, ugh.

As for the gay rights groups and Eminem, the protests more or less dried up after he performed with Elton John and got the EJ seal of approval.

[Tyjenks]

Nice little overview of white rap there Ty.
3rd Bass, yes, definitely. I never liked Everlast, but admit he beats Vanilla Ice, House of Pain, and Snow (a licky boom boom down).

House of Pain do get some credit for Jump Around, specifically for this line: Tried to play me as if my name was Sega. But lose all that credit for having a single hit based on a jumping trend begun by Kriss Kross.

ANd yes, since Paul's Boutique, the Beasties have been on their own. When I play Godzilla DAMM, I think Intergalactic Planetary.

Everlast actually was from House of Pain along with Danny Boy and DJ Lethal who joined up with Limp Bizkit once they signed with a record label. 'Jump Around' was released before the Mac Daddy and Daddy Mac from Kriss Kross donned their backwards pants and did their single, "Jump". Nice try though. :wink:

Vanilla Ice; I purchased any decent rap tape that came out back then and ripping off 'Under Pressure' and rapping to it was good at the time. I have to admit to purchasing his sophomore effort and it was horriblw. Both were summarily disposed of.

Snow; Bought it. Got tired of it. Flash in the pan. Although he is Canadian, I believe, and released an album last year with more singing on it. Those crazee Canadians.

Paul's Boutique best rap album of all time.

Sorry for hijacking of the thread, but now the Eminem debate can proceed with a little background knowledge. :)

[Anonymous]

I never liked Everlast, but admit he beats House of Pain.

You are so awesome.

[wumpus]

Paul's Boutique best rap album of all time.
To this day, I am still encountering samples from Paul's Boutique in the original songs I never heard of. I'll just be driving along, doing whatever, and some random song will come on the radio.. and I'm like, damn, that was in Paul's Boutique!

Example. Just last week I heard the song containing that "..right up to your face and DIS you!" sample. At this rate, I figure on my deathbed, I'll hear the final sample.

[Tyjenks]

Paul's Boutique best rap album of all time.
To this day, I am still encountering samples from Paul's Boutique in the original songs I never heard of. I'll just be driving along, doing whatever, and some random song will come on the radio.. and I'm like, damn, that was in Paul's Boutique!

Example. Just last week I heard the song containing that "..right up to your face and DIS you!" sample. At this rate, I figure on my deathbed, I'll hear the final sample.

I do that, too. Some are pretty obscure. Anything from classic rap artists, to70's rock riffs, and 60's R&B beats. Creative sampling like that has gone the way of the do-do I am afraid.

Said sample is from KRS-One of Boogie Down Productions. I have the cassette somewhere and I would give you the song title, but it escapes me. 'Nervous' maybe?

[Ron Dulin]

The greatness of Paul's Boutique is almost entirely due to the Dust Brothers. The Beastie Boys even admit as much in the liner notes to the Sounds of Science box. Most of the tracks were done as instrumentals, and the Beastie Boys heard them through a friend and begged the Dust Bros. to let them rap over it.

If you ever get a chance, try and find the original version of Jimmy James, which was made up of mostly Hendrix samples. They couldn't clear them, so they had to redo the whole music track.

Paul's Boutique is a great album, but it's certainly not the best hip-hop record ever. Especially when measured against It Takes a Nation of Millions..., The Low End Theory, or dozens of other records that were just as good and even more influential.

[wumpus]

Creative sampling like that has gone the way of the do-do I am afraid.
No, it just costs money now. Hard to imagine, but that was pre-licensing. It's unlikely we'll ever see an album with that kind of sampling breadth and depth again.


Paul's Boutique is a great album, but it's certainly not the best hip-hop record ever. Especially when measured against It Takes a Nation of Millions..., The Low End Theory, or dozens of other records that were just as good and even more influential.
What is it with the white people and the hip hop music?

[Tyjenks]

Paul's Boutique is a great album, but it's certainly not the best hip-hop record ever. Especially when measured against It Takes a Nation of Millions..., The Low End Theory, or dozens of other records that were just as good and even more influential.

Yeesh! Why did you have to go and say influential? The Beastie Boys have probably influenced more rockers or nu Metal bands than any Hip-hop folks.

I just think as far as flowing and decent lyrics, good beats, and even their musicianship which started to eek out, Paul's Boutique is great. I will step back from my best ever assertion. However, any time I do not know what I am in the mood for as far as rap goes, I can always pop it in and be perfectly happy. I am not sure I can say that when considering the other greats. :)

[DennyA]

God I'm a fogey. Last rap song I liked was Blondie's "Rapture."

Kids today. Blue Oyster Cult, Pink Floyd, ELO, New Order, The Cure... Now THAT was music.

Where'd I put my ear horn?

[Anonymous]

Kids today. Blue Oyster Cult, Pink Floyd, ELO, New Order, The Cure... Now THAT was music.
...and with the naming of someone's favorite bands in a music-related discussion, we have now reached the conclusion of this thread. Please turn off the lights on your way out. I'll see you all in the "Post a Picture of Your Room!" thread.

[Met_K]

Kids today. Blue Oyster Cult, Pink Floyd, ELO, New Order, The Cure... Now THAT was music.
...and with the naming of someone's favorite bands in a music-related discussion, we have now reached the conclusion of this thread. Please turn off the lights on your way out. I'll see you all in the "Post a Picture of Your Room!" thread.

You god damn fucktard, the conclusion of a thread is only, and I do mean -only-, reached when someone compares the current topic to that of Hitler and the holocaust. God damn, kids today, wouldn't know how-to talk on a message board if Derek Smart fucked them in the ass and used their mind as a cockwipe.

[Brad Grenz]

God damn, kids today, wouldn't know how-to talk on a message board if Derek Smart fucked them in the ass and used their mind as a cockwipe.

Just the way Hitler used to back when he was running the holocaust!

The End

[Ron Dulin]

What is it with the white people and the hip hop music?

Of all the responses that I could possibly post, I think I'll just go with:

Wow.

[DennyA]

Er, hey, I was going for *representative* bands of the pre-rap era. BÖC and ELO are hardly "favorites."

If I just said "rap sucks, and the fact that an untalented cretin like Mathers can be a success is proof positive of that," would that be better? http://www.smilies.nl/muziek/music487.gif

[Tyjenks]

If I just said "rap sucks, and the fact that an untalented cretin like Mathers can be a success is proof positive of that," would that be better?

Hey Denny, Don't bring me down. Grrrrrooooooossssssss.

[DennyA]

Hey Denny, Don't bring me down. Grrrrrooooooossssssss.

At least they were singing. http://www.smilies.nl/muziek/music415.gif

(Yeah, I know, the generation before me said the same thing about Sinatra vs. Zeppelin. But then again, at least Zeppelin was singing. Oops, there I go again. Okay, Sinatra vs. Dire Straits. Knopfler doesn't sing, he's just rapping without rhythm.)

I was trolling there, anyway, because of the too-serious response to my patented Jeff Green Cranky Old Man(TM) response to the thread.

I don't "get" rap, but I don't begrudge its existence. If people dig it, great. http://www.smilies.nl/muziek/music049.gif

[Tyjenks]

Actually the very first album I ever purchased was ELO's album with 'Don't bring me down'. Was it 'Discovery'? My beer-addled memory is failing me, yet again.

I certainly realize plenty of people do not see how anyone can enjoy rap music and more than likely detest it. That's fine, too. To each his own, I feel the same way about Opera and Country. :wink:

I could debate the merits of and morons in rap music all day, but....

-this is the movie section

-I do not imagine that more than 3 or 4 of Qt3's 300 members would care.

So peace and chicken grease,
Terrible T is Audi 5000, G

[Thierry Nguyen]

I could debate the merits of and morons in rap music all day, but....

-this is the movie section

-I do not imagine that more than 3 or 4 of Qt3's 300 members would care.

So peace and chicken grease,
Terrible T is Audi 5000, G

As long as you don't diss Dan The Automator, you're hip-hop fu is good in my book.

[Anonymous]

"He is a white guy who says 'nigger', as well."

Just read this thread for the first time. This statement is incorrect. I've seen more than one interview with Eminem in which he states straight out that he does not feel he has the right to use that word in his raps.

[Jason McCullough]

Hmm, guess I'll have to look him up now.