The Columbine anniversary

[Jason McCullough]

http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2004/04/20/columbine_anniversary/index.html

Full of appalling details I didn't know. The behavior of the police department there is unbelievable.

[Bob Cherub]

Something Jason and I can find common ground on.

Watching the video of cops moving inside in true SNAIL fashion was pathetic. These are bleeding and dying KIDS and the overwhelming police force moves in slow motion? Not to mention the poor teacher who bleed to death for almost 3 hours waiting for police. Sick.

Not to mention how many chances people had to prevent this shit and catch those two dirtbags. Eric Harris' parents aren't innocent either. His dad knew his kid was a psycho and did nothing. Not to mention the weaponry and pipe bombs in near open view in their rooms. Your kid's privacy is one thing but common sense is another.

[Jason McCullough]

Whoa, he had pipe bombs just sitting around in his room? I thought the diary entries from his father were oversold (please, egging trees?), but if that's true.....

[Bob Cherub]

Whoa, he had pipe bombs just sitting around in his room? I thought the diary entries from his father were oversold (please, egging trees?), but if that's true.....

On Dateline last Sunday they said Eric Harris had shotgun shells around his dresser and pipebombs in his closet.

So no they weren't on his bed but they weren't exactly secretly stashed.

Eric Harris' father also called 911 when he heard there was a shooting at Columbine as he suspected it was his son. How many father's would do that unless you were certain your kid was a loon.

[Duality]

I would love to know why an assistant DA would feel there was no probable cause to execute a search warrant ... when the search warrant was already signed off!

[Dirt]

Police are people too. They're just as afraid to die as the rest of us.

[Bob Cherub]

True but... there was like dozens and dozens of them. And dying KIDS inside. Aren't they paid to be a bit braver? One cop going in slow I can understand but two dozen? Three hours to get to a dying teacher?

[Dirt]

You guys have been watching too many Lethal Weapon type movies.

It's really about training and equipment. Neither of which, I think, the sleepy suburban city had for it's police officers for this kind of situation. Had this happened in LA or NY, it would have gone down alot differently.

[awdougherty]

But Columbine is right outside Denver, surely Denver has a bonafide swat team that could have gotten there quickly. I feel things went down too slowly, but maybe they really just didn't have solid intelligence and decided to go slow to err on the side of caution...

To the point where the kids finished all the wanted to do and resolved everything for the police but I guess that's another thing.

[Bob Cherub]

I certainly didn't expect them to charge in. But have you seen the footage of them moving through the cafeteria? My child could crawl faster.

They knew where the injured kids were focused (library, etc) and where the dying teacher was. Three hours it took them to get to the teacher. THREE HOURS.

[Anaxagoras]

I certainly didn't expect them to charge in. But have you seen the footage of them moving through the cafeteria? My child could crawl faster.

They knew where the injured kids were focused (library, etc) and where the dying teacher was. Three hours it took them to get to the teacher. THREE HOURS.

Spoken like a true armchair general.

[antlers]

Part of the problem was that they were more concerned about the perpetrators getting away then about helping the wounded.

[Bob Cherub]

I certainly didn't expect them to charge in. But have you seen the footage of them moving through the cafeteria? My child could crawl faster.

They knew where the injured kids were focused (library, etc) and where the dying teacher was. Three hours it took them to get to the teacher. THREE HOURS.

Spoken like a true armchair general.

You're right. I mean, it usually takes me three hours to walk from one side of a school to the other. I can't expect trained professionals to do it any quicker.

Plus, they lived in Littleton. They weren't trained in firearms and rescuing bleeding kids. They took courses in finding kitty in tree and helpin old lady cross the street. They should've just let ppl bleed longer.

Idiot.

[Anaxagoras]

I certainly didn't expect them to charge in. But have you seen the footage of them moving through the cafeteria? My child could crawl faster.


Spoken like a true armchair general.

You're right. I mean, it usually takes me three hours to walk from one side of a school to the other. I can't expect trained professionals to do it any quicker.

I'm sorry... I hadn't realized that you have extensive experience in crossing schools when there are armed, dangerous, and quite possibly insane suspects wandering around. My apologies, Bob.

But you really should cut policemen slack for not having your extensive training... we don't all have your expertise.

edit- eliminated redudancy in the last paragraph

[awdougherty]

I have to agree with Bob, there are trained people who should have blown through that school, found areas, secured them, and started getting the wounded out. I think modern swat teams have bulletproof shields and/or body armor, and like I said, Denver is a major city nearby.

something more should have been done, this was a situation (potential for many severely wounded people) where speed was of the essence.

[Anaxagoras]

awdougherty- I wasn't actually disagreeing with Bob's point. I was disagreeing with the blithe way in which he proscriptively says how people in a dangerous situation should react. If he had included any of your analysis, that would have been one thing. However, his entire point was "Look how slow they're going! I know I can move faster than that!"

Well, we don't really care how fast Bob Cherub can move. However, bringing up that better equipment should have been issued, the cops should have been trained better, or "experts" from Denver should have been brought in all seem like valid and interesting criticisms. Also, showing that the cops did indeed get proper training and just failed to utilize it would also be a valid point. However, I have no idea what training those guys have, and Bob hasn't shown any knowledge of that either. Apparently he just saw some footage of people moving too slowly and decided the cops were cowards, or idiots, or whatever goes through his mescaline-filled mind.

[Kyle Wilson]

Police respond as they've been trained. Until Columbine, most SWAT teams expected to deal with hostage situations and high-risk warrant service. In the former, the emphasis is on establishing a perimeter, opening negotiations, and out-waiting the hostage taker. In the latter, the whole SWAT teams kicks in someone's door at three in the morning and floods the house with cops, clearing room-to-room.

Columbine was a new thing. Rigid organizations like police departments have trouble adapting that quickly. So under stress in a situation they didn't understand, the cops did what they'd been trained to do: they established a secure perimeter and cleared the building room-to-room in the way that put themselves least at risk. Of course, that was completely the wrong thing to do while people were still getting shot and bleeding on the other side of that building.

The whole thing was dreadful all around. But I expect SWAT training has changed as a response to what happened at Columbine, and if something similar happens again, I expect police response to be much more quick and aggressive.

[russellmz00]

I have to agree with Bob, there are trained people who should have blown through that school, found areas, secured them, and started getting the wounded out. I think modern swat teams have bulletproof shields and/or body armor, and like I said, Denver is a major city nearby.


does anyone have actual law enforcement/swat experience? if not, the there's only one way to settle this: download one of the demos for swat 3. set the ai on "hard". then try to stroll, or "blow through" a level. you get one try. tell us what happens. the argument "they don't have super accurate aim in real life" doesn't cut it since you only know that in hindsight. and many parts of the game are simpler than real life: to get a wounded person out you hit 4, 2 and that's it, you can move on.

and remember: those are small levels in the demos. if you have the full game try and and get through the hospital level "quickly". the hospital level would probably be most similar trying to secure a public high school. you got stairways, multiple floors, doors with glass windows, small rooms, large rooms, connected rooms, large open areas, twisted closed off areas, hostages milling about, suspects who look like hostages running around, wounded people, and bombs (i am not sure if the cops entering the building suspected if the psychos had pipe bombs or not). people who have memorized that map and already know the possible bomb locations have a hard time blowing through it before time runs out.

[MikeJ]

people who have memorized that map and already know the possible bomb locations have a hard time blowing through it before time runs out.

How much time do you have in that scenario?

[Bob Cherub]

awdougherty- I wasn't actually disagreeing with Bob's point. I was disagreeing with the blithe way in which he proscriptively says how people in a dangerous situation should react. If he had included any of your analysis, that would have been one thing. However, his entire point was "Look how slow they're going! I know I can move faster than that!"

Well, we don't really care how fast Bob Cherub can move. However, bringing up that better equipment should have been issued, the cops should have been trained better, or "experts" from Denver should have been brought in all seem like valid and interesting criticisms. Also, showing that the cops did indeed get proper training and just failed to utilize it would also be a valid point. However, I have no idea what training those guys have, and Bob hasn't shown any knowledge of that either. Apparently he just saw some footage of people moving too slowly and decided the cops were cowards, or idiots, or whatever goes through his mescaline-filled mind.

Wow, didn't realize you were the expert.

And, wtf, I know you can't define "protest" but I figure you can read between the lines and don't need your hand held through every debate. Are you the type of movie goer who needs the shot of the word "Gas" on the red container with the nozzle so you realize it's flammable?

So, in an effort to keep Ananagofanesas's slow mind caught up with the rest of us, the video showed about eight law enforcement individuals dressed in SWAT like gear (helmets, body armor, assault weapons) moving through the cafeteria behind a riot shield at a snail's pace. Yes I know they feared for their lives, yes I know no one wants to die, but when you're paid to protect the innocent civilians of your community, I think you could perform a bit better then taking THREE HOURS to reach the KNOWN location of a dying teacher.

Make sense yet or do you need the Cliff Notes version with diagrams and flowcharts?

[Jason McCullough]

http://slate.msn.com/id/2099203/

Amazing article over at Slate detailing how virtually every popular conclusion about the killers is wrong.

[Bob Cherub]

Good read, thanks J.

[Doug Erickson]

"But he wrote that strictly for effect," Fuselier said. "That was complete manipulation. At almost the exact same time, he wrote down his real feelings in his journal: 'Isn't America supposed to be the land of the free? How come, if I'm free, I can't deprive a stupid f---ing dumbshit from his possessions if he leaves them sitting in the front seat of his f---ing van out in plain sight and in the middle of f---ing nowhere on a Frif---ingday night. NATURAL SELECTION. F---er should be shot.' "

Whaddaya bet he read Ayn Rand?

[russellmz00]

people who have memorized that map and already know the possible bomb locations have a hard time blowing through it before time runs out.

How much time do you have in that scenario?

i don't remember. i think 45-minutes was the sewer level limit but it could be the hospital one too.

[MikeJ]

How much time do you have in that scenario?

i don't remember. i think 45-minutes was the sewer level limit but it could be the hospital one too.

I must admit that I find that time pretty surprising. I was expecting 15 minutes, maybe 25 at the outside. Still, 45-minutes is apparently only a quarter of the time it took at Columbine.