Crusader Kings II cruel to be gavelkind

I’m a bit ambivalent on Crusader Kings II. Not because I don’t love it. I do. What’s more, I deeply admire what Paradox has done here. Paradox is the most ambitious and important developer of strategy games since Sid Meier.

But there’s something mildly sadistic about Crusader Kings II’s complexity and reach. Maybe even passively aggressively sadistic. I’m not saying it’s not accessible, because it is, to an extent. You can jump in and shuffle characters around to get an intricate Sims Medieval experience. Pause the game, climb around the latticework of relationships, and you’ll find a richly detailed dramatis personae. Now unpause the game and watch your own Shakespearean history unfold. There is no game quite like Crusader Kings II (the more primitive but equally ambitious Crusader Kings 1 excepted).

Getting medieval, after the jump

My problem with Crusader Kings II is that it’s an alien world with which the developers are intimately familiar and you are not. Playing the game well — in other words, digging deeper than the Sims Medieval level and really experiencing the full extent of the design, which means playing as multiple characters across hundreds of years — is something that doesn’t come easily. I say that as someone who loves the game, deeply admires it, and is even interested in the subject matter. I am the target audience and I am willing to do the work. This game should have been made for me. So why can’t I wrap my head around it?

Other Paradox games like Europa Universalis or Hearts of Iron are eventually familiar to most strategy gamers, because they use a vocabulary everyone understands. The nouns, or playing pieces, in those games are armies, provinces, technology trees, merchants, alliances, nations, government types, etc. The verbs are invasions, attacks, upgrades, colonizations, conversions, blockades, air strikes, etc. Everyone who’s played Civilization knows these things. Paradox’s games are certainly more complicated than Civilization, but the basic vocabulary is the same, even in a game as subversive as Victoria.

But the vocabulary in Crusader Kings II comes from a complicated dead language. The pieces here are the trappings of feudal society, which is as alien to the average gamer as the Kilrathi or Psilons. The basic vocabulary is marriage, inheritance, levies, and claims, which sounds pretty straightforward until you’re trying to untangle them beyond moment-to-moment reactions and use them to play the game. What’s the difference between a demesne and a realm? A family and a dynasty? A title and a claim? A county and a holding? A courtier and a vassal? A marriage and a betrothal? Crusader Kings II all too often assumes you know these things, as well as the ramifications lurking behind them. And you should know these things if you want to play effectively. But even then, Crusader Kings II will often surprise, confuse, or outright confound you. This is a game about delegating authority, about the limits of power, about the art of medieval middle management, and it’s more than happy to let the chips fall where they may when you invariably manage blind. Until the word “gavelkind” rolls off your tongue as easily as modern words like “alimony”, “daycare”, or “two mommies”, the art of Crusader Kings II will sometimes seem random, dissonant, and maybe a little cruel. There’s something almost masochistic about enduring Crusader Kings II’s byzantine learning curves.

Is this a fair criticism, though? Is it my fault for not understanding the particulars of this historical period? Or is it Paradox’s fault for assuming I can eventually figure them out? Should we share blame? Should I give Crusader Kings II a glowing review because I wish I could play it more effectively? Or should I review it based on the intersection of my deep admiration and frequent confusion? Or should I keep watching Let’s Play videos and reading forum posts until something clicks?

Whatever the case, I wish Paradox understood better what a challenge Crusader Kings presents for them and us. They’ve gotten considerably better with documentation and interfaces over the years, but that’s not enough in this case. Crusader Kings II ships with a broken and borderline useless tutorial. The manual tells you how to do things without bothering to explain why you might want to do them, which is a huge step backwards from the latest manuals for their other games. And although this is one of Paradox’s best interfaces yet, it’s easily overwhelmed by the labyrinth of relationships and titles. Where was I? What was I looking for? It’s sometimes like wandering into a room and forgetting why you came in here. Then your character dies and the game is over because your titles didn’t pass over to your heir like you thought they would.

Paradox’s games are like surfing a wave of data. At first, it can be overwhelming as the numbers wash over and past you, leaving you sputtering and dazed. But as you gradually get your feet under you, you’ll hurtle forward for a while. Eventually, you’re riding that wave of numbers for centuries at a time and it’s thrilling. Yes, thrilling. I play shooters and RTSs and I’m using the world thrilling to describe Paradox’s often spreadsheety games. I’ll do it again. Thrilling! That’s still the case in Crusader Kings II, but the waves have a completely different shape, as if you were trying to surf with all new laws of gravity, buoyancy, and fluid dynamics. And while I’m willing to get back on the board and keep trying, I wish I didn’t wipe out so much.

Because if there’s one thing more frustrating than a cruelly inscrutable game, it’s a cruelly inscrutable brilliant game that I really want to play.

3 stars
PC

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Brian-Rucker/100000745851295 Brian Rucker

    I’ve been interested in feudalism, probably by way of fantasy gaming, for ages and some roleplaying games are fairly realistic in their depictions of the feudal legalities and relationships (Harn and Ars Magica come to mind).  Many interesting details have been completely ignored for sake of simplicity in CK II though much of that can be worked in via flavor text in the random event mechanic eventually.

    Anyone interested in the period should understand the difference between a marriage and betrothal or family and dynasty or title and claim.  Heck we even use those concepts in the modern world in roughly the same way!  Courtier and vassal isn’t as clear cut, in game terms at least, but a vassal holds a title directly from you where a courtier is simply someone with a position in your court for whatever reason. Demense and realm I’m a little fuzzy on but I suspect demense is the accumulation of holdings under a given ruler of any rank while a realm is the demense of a royal.

    The key to keeping everything straight is almost like roleplaying.  At a gut level, after surveying your starting position, you have a general idea of which characters you can rely on, which might be hostile, what kinds of immediate territorial ambitions you or your neighbors might have and so on.  But there are so many layers to the politics you really can’t keep everything straight.  You just need to triage your priorities and focus on them like you would traits, behaviors, of a roleplayed character – sure there’s more to him but what’s really essential to express here?  Some things will be out of your hands.  What the Kingdom is doing if you’re just a count might be next to irrelevant in your daily life but it certainly has the potential to impact you directly and indirectly.  If the King’s doing all manner of foolish things that endanger you on a regular basis then maybe it is time figuring out how you can kill him off or at least get someone more appealing on the throne.

    You mentioned surfing the data until it becomes something much more than that, a living imaginative construct with all sorts of texture, flavor and meaning as the math fades into the background.   That’s why I love this kind of character focused strategy game (RoTK and KoDP also fall into this category).  They’re the ultimate dynamic, immersive, gaming experience for me.  The flow feels real but the complex variables keep me juggling and reacting to new, plausible, situations.

    I really didn’t find understanding the basics or even somewhat advanced elements in the game complex but that could be because I played CK I and I’ve been interesting in medieval politics in roleplaying for a long time.  Realism breeds immersion for people who actually know stuff about stuff.  It’s when abstractions become too ham handed the illusion shatters for us.

    Folks say this kind of desire for fidelity in emulation is what killed flight sims.  Me?  I say it’s what led to the creation of games and gaming concepts (dynamic campaign) that haven’t been rivaled since.  That was the pinnacle of design.  Unfortunately we don’t have anything like an “art” market for games where individuals will pay many thousands of dollars for an individual product.   We’ve just got whatever slobs happen to wander into a Gamestop.

  • My Opinion

    I love the game to the point of obsession but I have two problems with it.  One is the Gavelkind law, now the real Gavelkind was very localised to specific parts of Britain but in the game it is way too common to the point of annoyance.  The law just feels like an annoyance at the best of times and I wish Paradox would have implimented different inheritence laws across Europe. My second problem is that you can only have one character window (or whatever you want to call it) open at a time, it gets frustrating when you want to arrange a marriage or just compare characters and you have to keep closing the window to switch characters.

    Still it is the best game I’ve played in months and I really hope that the discussed Game of Thrones mod will be decent.

    http://citadel.prophpbb.com/forum4.html?sid=8cbf779281047e04f98faea164aa63c2

  • MikeO

    You make a lot of great points here, Tom, and I certainly mostly agree — I’m trying to remember another game where period jargon and nomenclature can cause similar confusion, and I’m drawing a blank — but, for some reason, it’s not bothering me too much.

    My own petty gripes mostly center around my confusion when conflicts are going on around me. Even after spending a fair amount of time digging, I’m often at a loss to comprehend what is really happening, who is at war with whom, who is the aggressor. I know part of this is due to my inexperience with the system, but I really wish the game made it a little easier for the player.

    Even so, I am absolutely loving this game. It transports the player to a time and place in a way that few other strategy games ever have.

  • Dksch1986

    Are there any good books to read to prepare to play?

    Thanks

  • tomchick

    I don’t know about books, but this posts on the game’s official forum…

    http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?589469-GUIDE-In-depth-Guide-to-CKII

    …is exactly what the manual and tutorial should have been.

  • My Opinion

    This is a really good AAR funny and really informative, at the very least it’ll show you what to expect.

    http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?588118-Saltborn-A-Crovan-AAR&s=6374d743b40a21ffc7d8fb4c8efc1598

  • Dksch1986

    Thanks Tom

  • simao

    I know what you mean. But, I think Gavelkind is (game) designed as the ‘first hurdle to get over’ when you start a game of CKII. You either have to change the laws or get involved in assassinations. By your second and third characters, you’ve probably sorted it out, you’ve got primogeniture, and oh look you just usurped the Kingdom of France.
    2 character screens would be good. but you know there’s a ‘back’ button on the info screen in the top left? workaround

  • My Opinion

    Huh I didn’t notice that that I’ll look for it next time I play.  I agree with you Gavelkind gives you a challenge during some of the early quieter months but it does put me off from trying certain areas in the game especially the Spainish Dukes, I can’t imagine how tough it would be dealing with the Muslim Empires, the other Dukes and fighting against your own laws.  It’s just too much for some starting areas and I wish Paradox would have made it at least slightly easier to change certain laws.

  • Vini_lessa

    Hey Brian, I think exactly like you. The style of game seen in Romance of the Three Kingdoms 8 (the one where you are just 1 character), King of Dragon Pass and Crusader Kings 2 is the one I like most. Its fusion of simulation, open-ended/sandbox gameplay, and “emergent storytelling” gives me the (as you put) “ultimate experience” in gaming. Just wished there were more games like these.

  • McG

     Medieval strategy games peaked when Medieval: Total War labeled my king avatar a child molester.

  • simao

    i know what you mean. the Spanish kingdoms are awful, but thats the challenge.. 

    makes you wonder how they actually pulled off the reconquista.

  • thebigJ_A

    My big disappointment with CK2 was the manual. Whereas their other games (like, say, HOI3) will have thick manuals filled with statistics and mechanics, and followed up with even deeper strategy guides, the CK2 manual was like twenty pages of fluff. 

    I mean, seriously, Paradox? You thought to use the manual space (space more cheaply filled than that in-game) with reiterations of what the different screens are? You’ve got tooltips that tell me that in the game. I get that the Laws screen is the screen with the laws in it, thank you very much. Tell me why I might want to change to one law or another, and why I might want to wait (as in my most recent game, where my levies were suddenly quartered right before an invasion, because my inheritance law change made everyone hate me by -30 for X years. I lost that game.)

    Explain to me how taxes are determined, how research spreads, etc. Don’t wait until someone figures it out and posts it on the forums. 

    Someone’s doing that right now, btw. He’s still learning himself, but it’s far and away the best guide to the game I’ve seen: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?589469-GUIDE-In-depth-Guide-to-CKII

    Edit: Oh, i see Tom linked to it already. Well, consider this me seconding the motion.

  • thebigJ_A

    If you click on a province, it’ll tell you who the character who holds it is at war with. Hover over it and you can even see what the war is about.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Brian-Rucker/100000745851295 Brian Rucker

     Yeah, well, I’ll take what I can get.  As with those old dynamic flight sims the beauty of these designs is that you can play them forever.  The variables and permutations of situation and emergent narrative keep them viable indefinitely.  You don’t get to the point that you ever know everything that’s going to happen.  And, where possible – CK I so far but I imagine CK II as well, mod communities grow up around games like this and keep adding in more stuff.

  • MikeO

     Thanks J_A….I will check out your tips!

  • thebigJ_A

    Most of the time, when I found myself wondering something, or wishing something were there, it turned out it was, i just hadn’t been looking in the right places. 

    Like the option to get messages about any specific person in the game. You probably know you can right click a portrait to get the two buttons, one to take you to their character sheet, another to go to diplomacy. But did you know you can right-click those buttons, too? Like six new options open up, including making someone a ‘person of interest’, who you’ll get messages about from then on. Very useful if I want to know what my neighbor is doing, or am just curious about that daughter I married off.

  • Bkelso

    This is one of the best game reviews I’ve ever read.  Good work, Mr. Chick.  I’ll be checking back for more reviews from you.

  • Bkelso

    I have to say, I’m about half-way through “The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich”, and I highly recommend it.  It won’t help you with the medieval terminology, I’m afraid, but it is spot on as far as how to manipulate diplomacy and politics to get one’s own ends met.  Hitler may have been a bastard, but he was one hell of a smart politician.

  • Dksch1986

    Thanks a lot

  • Dksch1986

    Thanks a lot.

  • Grizzy36

    Damn you. Now I feel that old itch coming back. MTW2 with stainless steel. 

  • MikeO

     Late reply, I know, but for people new to the game (like myself), watch the videos on youtube uploaded by ‘SeeKayEm99′. He has a series put up recently going over in detail a lot of the UI and game aspects. He explains exactly how taxes work, levies, etc. Just incredibly helpful in understanding the game.

  • Ben Halliburton

    It’s interesting to point out that the history.txt file contains unique and more or less historical inheritance laws for the major principalities, but that Paradox commented them all out, presumably for balance reasons. There’s mods that restore them, if you can’t be troubled to do it yourself.

  • Learn to play

    Many were called, few were chosen

  • Thiago

    Total War games are quite fun, qutie incredible. Since the begining…
    But what I cant stand now are these dumb, brainless fanboys who play total war games.
    Creative Assembly first total war games focused in the simulation aspect of battles… but now they want this “tard” percentage of the market, the one who play videogames and arcade games, and are brainless, and stupid, and cant stand complex and intricated games (they arent just stupid… its just they play games as a hoby, this people dont wanna read manuals or spend lots of hours to understand some game mechanics and achive some hard goal).
    You could call them “softcore players” :P
    These softcore players, whose made Crative Assembly sell its soul and abandon us, the “hardcore players”, these fags think every game should be as easy as the ones they play.
    So they get their hands on crusader kings 2 and they just freak out. “Oh my good, where I click to have war?!?! What??? Claim? I Wanna see fighting and awesome graphiics! Ohhh, this game is too hard to understand… I cant just click things and get fun… I actually have to think…”
    So they come and write articles like these, criticizing the game because it was not “soft” enough for their ridicules stupid litle brains.
    Fuck, go play COD, go play halo, go play, anything. Stay out of the few decent gamtes that exist in the market. We dont want paradox to sell its soul either to make profit from this bunch of retards!
    Arghs!

  • Carlitos9595

    I just wanted to tell you, the difference between a demesne and a realm is that a demesne is what you directly control, while a realm is what you control plus what your vassals control. So you might have 10 counties in your demesne, but if you have 10 vassals each with his own county, you would end up with 20 counties in your realm.

  • J Donner

    Tom Chick, you’re a strange man, sometimes you write the most foolish reviews, in this case you point out better than any other reviewer what the true problem is with this game. This time it’s thumbs up for you….until you write an odd review again.

  • http://www.facebook.com/ron.deklein.9 Ron de Klein

    What i mis mostly is a overview of Diplomatic relations or a page where you have overview en control for your armies. Most if not all you have to find them yourself om the map. Another thing, so i have the claim, i made war, i won the county but…. i can’t take the county! Why? Just a example how difficult it is sometimes and you don’t have a clue, why cou cannot do what you think should have happen.
    Same goes for usurp; Message “you can usurp ….” oke, i go there and ehmm… no, you cannot! You mis gold, or the rule will not allow you to do it.
    So? Why that message to begin with! Go away, stay away till you actually can do what they point out to you. Confusing, that is what it is.
    As much as i love the concempt, there is much room left for improvement: on efficiency lvl i mean: getting the right info to you, the player. Giving him better ways to deal with Diplomacy and warfare (overview/control pages).
    Such thing helps alot.
    TW have it drawbacks , true. What i love in TW are exactly the strong points of that game: control and overview of Diplomacy and Troops.

  • watermark123445

    If you go ahead just a couple of decades in the timeline, it becomes clear that most of them eventually united into Castille, and that they quickly made a heavy push into Muslim lands that clearly puts them in the lead for reconquista. One important thing to remember is that all of those random dukedoms are part of the same dynsasty, so it’s actually somewhat easy for them to all come back together. In contrast, the Muslims are divided into multiple competing dynasties and seem rather hopeless in comparison.

  • watermark123445

    I honestly had little trouble sorting out the ranks and getting the nomenclature straight. Perhaps you guys do not know as much about the history of the period as you think you do.

  • Milk

    I’m by no mean a strategy games veteran. I play one about every 5 years. I didnt find this game inscrutable at all. Sure some things were not readily obvious but its nothing that can’t be figured out after a handful of days of playing. I have to say though, i started as a Count and i’d reccomend it to anyone. Because if you start as an emperor or even a king you”ll have a lot to handle and probably will feel overwhelmed at first. Better wait until you’re really familiar with the game before you go for very large kingdoms. Also…really? you didn’t know the difference between a courtier and a vassal? or a claim and a title? I’m not so sure you were the target market as you claim… I’m not even the target market and these are basic general knowledge things.. yeah now i sound like a dick…but seriously.