Old-school looting has no place in RPGs

I visited a friend of mine the other day. I walked into his house and instead of initiating the dialog for the story mission — we were going to see Pirates of the Caribbean, but there would be options in the dialog tree for Bridesmaids or Thor — I started going through the drawers in his kitchen. There had to be a junk drawer somewhere. A ha! Sure enough, I found 43 cents in loose change. I also scored some batteries, a ball of string, a screwdriver, and a roll of masking tape that I could sell next time I went to the store.

I found a key in there as well. Once I’d cleared the spare change out of the other drawers in the house (another 87 cents), as well as taking some jewelry from his wife’s jewelry box (score!) and changing into a nicer pair of pants I found in his closet, I tried the key on various doors. I eventually got into his garage. I found a bunch of tools, as well as some lumber and cloth. I did’t take the lumber since it just took up too much weight in my inventory. The entire time he was watching me, waiting for me to initiate dialog.

I understand why computer RPGs do this, and it’s a convention as old as the genre itself. The level designers have made cool locations full of nooks and crannies that you have no reason to visit, much less admire. So they sprinkle rewards around to encourage exploration. It’s part of the economy, and it makes gameplay sense. But the trade-off is that it damages world building and character development. In The Witcher 2, for instance, I can get into a groove where I’m digging on a town’s layout, and where people live, and what they do, and how they hang out and talk to each other. But the moment I open someone’s personal chest and help myself to what’s in there while he looks on? That’s the moment I’m back in yet another computer RPG. Furthermore, my Geralt in The Witcher 2 would never do something so petty as steal stuff from people. But the developers don’t acknowledge this decision I’ve made about the character I’m playing. What’s more, they punish me if I make this decision.

Looting friendly homes in an absurd RPG convention and it needs to stop. Bethesda’s games finally woke up to the fact that it’s odd to pick through someone’s possessions, so they put into their games ownership over items and whether or not people see you taking their stuff. It’s a crucial part of their world building, which allows for the concept of crime. It helps character development since it finally gives thief characters something to do beside pick pockets and disarm traps. And it also makes it harder to play otherwise solid RPGs like Dragon Age, The Witcher, Neir, and Divine Divinity.

  • Wolfox

    Agreed… though the Gothic series are much better than the Bethesda RPGs in that area; in the Gothic series, not only you can’t steal something from someone’s house in front of them, as people will not react kindly to you entering their houses without permission (much less taking their stuff). It’s still the best implementation I’ve seen of that behavior in any RPG I can recall.

  • malkav11

    Wait what? Why do you include Nier, a game in which it is not actually possible to enter anyone’s home other than your own, much less loot them? (Though your own abode periodically sprouts helpful items and a financial stipend.) The loot in Nier primarily comes in three varieties – natural materials you harvest from appropriate spots/animals, manufactured materials that drop from shades and robots, and weapons. None of these ever damaged the world building as far as I could tell. If anything, they contributed to it.

  • http://www.ashleyspix.com Chris Bustamante

    And this is why I’m so excited for Skyrim. :)

  • http://www.quartertothree.com Tom Chick

    Doesn’t Neir have stashes around the cities with lootable goodies? I could be mistaken. If so, I stand corrected.

  • Alan Kleiman

    Consider that Ultima games had not just NPC schedules, but NPC ownership and law-enforcement 20 years ago. A lot of that stuff RPGs STILL point out as a ‘big deal’ in 2011.

  • Pogo

    Tell it like it is, Tom. I’ve been annoyed with this RPG convention for a while. I even go so far as to want this stuff done away with in ARPG games as well

  • malkav11

    Not in the actually inhabited parts, no. You can harvest berries and herbs from the vegetation around the main village.

  • DoomMunky

    Speaking of which, why is there trash loot in games PERIOD? Why not only have decent stuff that’s worth something, and have less of it? Are we such slaves to loot gathering that we HAVE TO FIND STUFF on every spider we kill (get rid of spider killing too, rpg makers), even if that stuff is woolen socks and bent nails?

  • http://magical-sword.blogspot.com Photographer Leia

    Ever since playing A Bard’s Tale (PS2) I can’t help but hear a non-existent narrator chastise me when I root through people’s belongings. Thank goodness bin looting is a public service. Those crates and dressers will only be cluttered and their items would just be gathering dust if I don’t clear them out :)

    I do agree with you about the looting though. I’ve spent a great deal of time in the Elder Scrolls world and ever since then I’m never sure if a game will punish me for looting (although they usually don’t) so I always quick save the first time I do it just in case. A couple of games like KOTOR2 make some recognition of your looting. For instance there is that guy who runs in when you enter his house and loot his chest. He complains about your stealing and you have a chance to say you were just looking around (which he’s mad about as well, for good reason) or you can kill the guy. Nods like that help immersion, but they don’t help too much when there is still no real consequence for you actions. After all, in KOTOR games it makes no sense for a Light Side character to go about looting people’s homes.

  • Dirtyboy

    I remember playing Ultima VII and people in your party would get angry at you for breaking in and stealing from people’s houses. Eventually they would get mad enough to leave your party. I also remember running from the local authorities in one of the old Elder Scrolls games after breaking in to several houses. In Witcher 2, like Tom, I loot everything in the room before I say a word to the NPCs.

  • http://www.quartertothree.com Tom Chick

    Thanks for the Neir correction, Malk.

  • http://www.gamerblahhhg.com Brad Grenz

    The petty thieving does come across as really anachronistic in this game. In a game that otherwise reacts to the player and their actions in so many interesting ways, it’s a shame The Witcher 2 has every NPC on a “look the other way” policy, especially when the only purpose it seems to serve is stocking you up with odds and ends for crafting.

  • Joe

    Between having to steal everyone’s stuff and having to contend with THE GREAT EVIL!!!!!!11111 that is always between Geralt and whatever silly fedex quest he has to do (fortunately, the great evil never strays more than ten feet in either direction off the path), I find it hard to take the game seriously. I think it would have benefited tremendously from a little Mass Effect 2 streamlining, frankly, but perhaps with a little Two Worlds 2 item upgrading/enchanting for flavor.

  • Cormac

    Surprised noone has mentioned or linked this yet! http://www.collegehumor.com/video/5977008/rpg-heroes-are-jerks

  • Joel Howe

    I remember Michael Abbott pointing this out regarding Dragon Age: Origins. You walk into Lothering and see all the poor refugees outside with no homes but living among crates full of loot. And somehow they can’t take it and you can’t give it to them. It exists only for you.

  • Ben L.

    Yeah, I agree, I hate it in RPGs when NPCs don’t react to you stealing stuff out from under your nose.

    Except that isn’t really ‘Old-school looting’ since NPCs that DO react are nothing new, and Bethesda was certainly not the first (or the best) implementer.

  • Darth Teddy Bear

    This crutch and dare I say in a lot of instances lazy design has no place in modern gaming and I believe never had a place on gaming of old.

    The worst aspect of this practice is often you are severely disadvantaged or even miss something you will need later.

    This still being so prominent in The Witcher has put this game on my probably get around to playing it rather than wait for the patches… bugger!

    Cheers,

    Darth Teddy Bear

  • Ginger Yellow

    It is really jarring in The Witcher 2. I burst out laughing when, having saved some villagers from being killed and/or burgled by soldiers, I stole all of their possessions while they praised me effusively.

  • http://magical-sword.blogspot.com Photographer Leia

    @ Cormac – I had never seen tht before! That was hilarious.

    @ Mordrak – I have seen very few calling for its complete removal, people just seem to agree that individual property should not be so easily lootable without some kind of response. Even TES (since that was the example given) has places you can loot that are not inside people’s private homes and still mesh with player characters’ personalties/mentalities.

  • Ginger Yellow

    That said, I don’t find Bethesda’s approach entirely satisfactory either. In Fallout I was never entirely sure which locks it was OK to pick (to the extent that at one point in Megaton I got trapped in a death-save-death loop) and if you don’t loot everything, you feel like you’re missing out.

  • AcidCat

    This is timely, I just got to the first town last night in the game, and ended up rooting through strangers’ homes thinking how immersion-breaking it was. I mean, Geralt just saved a bunch of civilians and wouldn’t even accept coin as payment, now he’s stealing from strangers? But if I don’t, what am I going to miss game-wise? Will I miss some crafting component I need? Be low on coin? Surely the game economy is balanced around me gathering this ill-gotten loot?

    Yeah this old trope needs to go.

  • Toohoo

    I think it’s fair to say it could aid characterization and immersion. This convention has always been one of those stiff diffident blocks between game-play and story. People will tell you it’s silly and pointless to think like this, and while I admit this convention hasn’t bothered me, there’s a lot of potential to be found from fully exploring alternatives. Writing it off as a ‘pointless nit pick’ isn’t really progressing.

  • Neil

    As mentioned, this is actually a relatively recent “feature” of RPGs. Back in the days when CRPGs were designed as simulations, instead of just clumps of gameplay mechanics and virtual dice, ownership of items played a larger roll; in these games, having a class capable of thievery and stealth made more sense. Even games like Baldur’s Gate included this — NPCs would become angry, and possibly hostile, if you took their stuff.

  • Alistair

    Bizarre to me that this is described as a large part of W2. You can just not do it? With the ingame rationalisation being it would be a ridiculous thing to do?

    This game is ruined because no-one notices me stealing their forks! So don’t steal forks.

  • amandachen

    Compare any other RPG to NetHack (1987) or Ultima (let’s say Ultima 7, from 1992) and you’ll notice so many missed opportunities and missing features.

  • RedHerb

    I remember running around the first town in Nier busting up peoples creates hoping to find hidden goodies…I never did…I looked into those empty creates only to find that it was I who was empty!

  • amandachen

    Anyone remember stealing from the shops in NetHack and then getting chased by the Keystone Kops? Hahah, that was brilliant. You get into a massive custard/cream pie fight.

  • http://www.scarylemon.com Nathan

    Old-school looting is still in games because of the powerful Dragon-Quest-urn-and-barrel-maker lobby.

  • neothoron

    As soon as I arrived in the town in the prologue of the Witcher II, I opened a drawer in a civilian home

  • neothoron

    As soon as I arrived in the town in the prologue of the Witcher II, I opened a drawer in a civilian home… and then I closed it: I thought that I didn’t want to do that, “penalty” be damned. (seriously, what is the penalty going to be? some gold? some trash material? I will have loads of those by looting only my enemies and the wilderness)

    I find it interesting that you had the same visceral reaction as I did (“My Geralt would never do that”) but still did it – though you seem to say that it hurt your enjoyment of the game. Why not take a step back and choose not to do it?

  • Rimbo

    Alternative way to “fix” this gameplay mechanic: Give the NPC’s and Guards the ability to loot, too! You could make the whole game out of this, then set it in post-Katrina New Orleans…

  • Plizzin

    You are totally one hundred percent right. Very well stated. I hope someone somewhere in a position to make these changes gets their hands in this. I was just playing witcher 2 and thought the exact same thing. Totally takes you out of the experience. It’s a shame.